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  #151    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (02:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
Capitilaism is what would prevent outsourcing to China. China attracts jobs because businesses don't have to deal with nearly as many burdensome regulations that they have to here.
No, the "make the highest profit at all costs" attitude praised so highly by capitalism is what causes companies to make the decision to outsource to sweatshops in China, ignoring the human rights issues that surround them because CAPITALISM.

The only way for America to compete with Chinese labor while maintaining "capitalism at all costs" is to make our labor so cheap that most people would not be able to live off of their jobs (it's hard enough to live as it is on minimum wage), while removing everything that makes workers safe and keeps companies from forcing them into dangerous conditions for the sake of a paycheck.

People > money.
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  #152    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (03:36 PM). Edited October 23rd, 2012 by Mr. X.
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Your not pointing out anything that I haven't already told her in the past.

This is America. We, supposedly, more then half a **** about our workers. It's what, supposedly, sets us apart from the 'evil' countries (aka, china, N.Korea, Cuba, ect ect.).

What we are seeing today is a repeat of the 20's. Sooner or later, the system will collapse upon itself again. Hopefully this time we can get some regulations in place to keep corperate greed in check.
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  #153    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (03:46 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
inb4 Freaky

'The companies would have no choice but to offer fair wages for our skilled labor.'

Seriously. I pointed out all of this to her once before, and this was (pretty much) her response.
In what world is that? "Fair Wages" could only be obtained AND MAINTAINED by a strong labor movement. Which is usually stomped down in today's neo-liberal world.
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  #154    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (03:53 PM).
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The conditions of employment, such as wages, hours, workplace conditions, and benefits in addition to wages, should not be legislatively mandated. These should be negotiated between the employer and each employee, or their labor union, if the employee belongs to one.
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  #155    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (04:13 PM).
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Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
The conditions of employment, such as wages, hours, workplace conditions, and benefits in addition to wages, should not be legislatively mandated. These should be negotiated between the employer and each employee, or their labor union, if the employee belongs to one.
Except this is not an equal power relationship. This is a relationship where the corporations have exponentially more power than than the workers. Working out wages one-on-one only works well in mom-and-pop businesses, where they care about the people they're hiring, and can be affected by harming the interests of one or two families. People need jobs to live, because they need money. If all corporations offered jobs at 50 cents an hour, what are they supposed to do, not work at all? They would be forced to take a job that doesn't pay enough because it's better than being paid nothing. And then the corporation has their workers at their price and have no need to raise wages.
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  #156    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (04:21 PM).
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You not telling her anything that I haven't in the past.

She still thinks that Corporations care about their employee's.

They don't. All they care about is making money. At. Any. Cost.
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  #157    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (05:35 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Toujours:
Except this is not an equal power relationship. This is a relationship where the corporations have exponentially more power than than the workers. Working out wages one-on-one only works well in mom-and-pop businesses, where they care about the people they're hiring, and can be affected by harming the interests of one or two families. People need jobs to live, because they need money. If all corporations offered jobs at 50 cents an hour, what are they supposed to do, not work at all? They would be forced to take a job that doesn't pay enough because it's better than being paid nothing. And then the corporation has their workers at their price and have no need to raise wages.
When businesses (not all large companies are companies are corporations under the legal definition of the term) pay wages that are insufficient, what happens in a free market system where both the employer and the employee have equal rights regarding the freedom to contract, workers organize to have more clout in negotiations with their employer.
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  #158    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (06:06 PM).
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Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
When businesses (not all large companies are companies are corporations under the legal definition of the term) pay wages that are insufficient, what happens in a free market system where both the employer and the employee have equal rights regarding the freedom to contract, workers organize to have more clout in negotiations with their employer.
The reason we have these regulations is because when left to their own devices, companies would rather use their power to lean on workers in a way that forced them to work for pennies.

Look at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. The reason so many people died in that fire was because the doors were locked in the factory. Why were the doors locked? So the employees had to request the key from their managers, so they could be searched before they left on suspicion of theft. The company put theft above the safety of their workers, because theft affects their bottom line while a worker getting hurt did not (since they could easily be replaced). Without the regulations that are now in place on workplace safety, this is what happens. Companies put their bottom line first.

And in a country where a company can offer ridiculously low amounts of money for work, the company will. And where one company does, another does. Working is not a luxury that we can play games with like you seem to think. It is a necessity for the workers. As a necessity, the employers have massive amounts of power in the negotiation. If a worker refuses to work for 20 cents a day, but all the companies around her only offer 20 cents a day, then what is she supposed to do? She now has no job. She has no negotiating power. The companies hold all the power. If they didn't, we wouldn't need regulations to protect real people from being exploited by them.
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  #159    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (06:28 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Toujours:
The reason we have these regulations is because when left to their own devices, companies would rather use their power to lean on workers in a way that forced them to work for pennies.

Look at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. The reason so many people died in that fire was because the doors were locked in the factory. Why were the doors locked? So the employees had to request the key from their managers, so they could be searched before they left on suspicion of theft. The company put theft above the safety of their workers, because theft affects their bottom line while a worker getting hurt did not (since they could easily be replaced). Without the regulations that are now in place on workplace safety, this is what happens. Companies put their bottom line first.

And in a country where a company can offer ridiculously low amounts of money for work, the company will. And where one company does, another does. Working is not a luxury that we can play games with like you seem to think. It is a necessity for the workers. As a necessity, the employers have massive amounts of power in the negotiation. If a worker refuses to work for 20 cents a day, but all the companies around her only offer 20 cents a day, then what is she supposed to do? She now has no job. She has no negotiating power. The companies hold all the power. If they didn't, we wouldn't need regulations to protect real people from being exploited by them.
If a company is forced to pay by law more than a worker is worth, then that company will have to hire less employees than they need, or outsource jobs so that they can pay their workers what their labor is worth. Minimum wage laws price unskilled workers out of jobs, because companies won't hire them because they can't pay them what their labor is actually worth.

Individual workers may not have much negotiating power, but organized workers do. This is why labor unions exist.

As far as locking workers in, that is already illegal without burdensome regulations. The tort of false imprisonment provides relief for workers in that situation.
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  #160    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (07:04 PM).
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Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
If a company is forced to pay by law more than a worker is worth, then that company will have to hire less employees than they need, or outsource jobs so that they can pay their workers what their labor is worth. Minimum wage laws price unskilled workers out of jobs, because companies won't hire them because they can't pay them what their labor is actually worth.

Individual workers may not have much negotiating power, but organized workers do. This is why labor unions exist.

As far as locking workers in, that is already illegal without burdensome regulations. The tort of false imprisonment provides relief for workers in that situation.
Um ok. If Im gonna get a job, I expect to be paid more than a dollar a day for me work. Id rather minimum wage laws exist than to be payed like 5 dollars a day. People can't live off that. They cant afford to buy things like food and pay rest and other expenses. How do you expect them to be able to afford to live if that were the case and the laws didnt exist?
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  #161    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (07:24 PM). Edited October 23rd, 2012 by Netto Azure.
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"That's why Labor Unions exist"

I would have been more inclined to agree with you if Unions were not decimated by people of a certain political persuasion.

"Right to Work" states for example... :/

It seriously sucks when you have to study Labor Relations and realize that things went downhill by the 1980's to the point that union membership is mostly relegated in the Public sector. And even THAT is under attack.

Edit: Anyone watched the Third Party debates? It's very interesting to see a more engaging and vigorous debate here.

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Third-Party-Presidential-Debate/10737435220-1/
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  #162    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (07:56 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Netto Azure:
"That's why Labor Unions exist"

I would have been more inclined to agree with you if Unions were not decimated by people of a certain political persuasion.

"Right to Work" states for example... :/

It seriously sucks when you have to study Labor Relations and realize that things went downhill by the 1980's to the point that union membership is mostly relegated in the Public sector. And even THAT is under attack.
I believe that labor unions have the right to exist under the Freedom of Association Clause of the First Amendment; however, the law should not give the unions any advantages in bargaining with employers.

Right to work laws do not harm unions. All they do is give workers the right to choose whether or not they want to join a union. Workers who wish to unionize are free to do so in a right to work state.

Union membership in the private sector can be attributed to a number of factors. Modern legislation such as minimum wage and workplace protections have cause workers to feel like they don't need to join a union, thus having to pay union dues. The outsourcing of jobs at an alarming rate has also cause many of the skilled union jobs to move to countries where labor is cheaper, causing our labor force to move towards a more service-based economy. Service jobs are harder to outsource, since many of them require face-to-face interaction with consumers, but they also tend to be unskilled jobs that require little pay and benefits, and the ease of replacing these workers makes it harder for unions to form in service industries.

The right to unionize should not exist in the public sector. That raging right-wing reactionary FDR even agrees with me on this!
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  #163    
Old October 23rd, 2012 (11:35 PM).
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Has anyone heard of Jill Stein? She's the presidential candidate for The Green Party in the United States. Jill Stein will focus on restoring nature, like building more national parks. She will also support equal rights for everyone (including same sex marriage). Jill Stein will also focus on stopping the gas companies from building fracking machines that would ruin the underground water as well as the rivers and lakes.

If anyone has never heard of The Green Party, they are an environmentally friendly and equal rights type of political party. More information about The Green Party can be read here.

But the thing is... it's really sad that the media never even mentions anything about The Green Party, 'cause they are one of the only decent sort of political party in America. The media surely does like to make it sound like that Obama and Romney are the only choices, but there are much more choices than those two. Jill Stein is a candidate for president, which means she will appear on a ballot paper.

The word about The Green Party needs to be spread, so that people will realize and learn about the political party and Jill Stein.

But of course... it's everyone's decision. If I lived in America, I'd surely would be voting for The Green Party, 'cause kindness will spread... to others that will do the same.
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  #164    
Old October 24th, 2012 (11:12 AM).
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I'm actually a member of the Green Party since that's what I originally joined when I first registered to vote and I've never bothered to change it. I like their stance on most things, more than the stance of the Democratic Party, but I'm still going to Vote Obama/Democratic because I'm afraid of what would happen if certain other parties get into positions of power. (I would go on a tirade against said certain parties, but yeah.)

Actually, I will go on a small tirade. There's a Tea Party backed Republican candidate for the US Senate in Indiana, Richard Mourdock, who's recently said: "I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God," Mourdock said. "And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

And the Republican Party is still supporting him. Just like they're supporting Todd "Legitimate Rape" Akin.
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  #165    
Old October 24th, 2012 (12:31 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
I'm actually a member of the Green Party since that's what I originally joined when I first registered to vote and I've never bothered to change it.
So... uhh... what is this joining a party a thing you Americans do?

If you're registered as something, why bother voting? Just...count that?

Also, for me private unions make sense. Public unions do not. A union in what is essentially a monopolistic industry supported by tax payers makes no sense to me.

And personally I think it's wrong that in union work that you need to pay a fee to maintain that job. I had a union job this summer. I lost money. I also didn't get vacation pay because I was in "the wrong union" I was told. This employer had multiple unions looking after different employees. Apparently, I was in the crappy one. Woo fairness ><

At the very least, you should be able to deny paying your fee without losing your job if you don't agree with some social issue the union may be pushing at the time. If I were Jewish, I wouldn't be pleased with having my pay docked in order to support some anti-Israel campaign, for instance. You should be able to join or not and still get the job. You should be able to work during a strike if you want (if my union were on strike. I wouldn't be out in the strike line. I'd be at home or doing something for myself. How about I work instead?) With all that said though, I think in the majority case, most people would still join and support unions.

Like... even as a student, I have to pay for the student union. Who... does absolutely nothing for me at all. They might put on some events that I don't attend. Or support some social things that just aren't a concern for me at all. I did approach them once for assistance with something and got brushed aside. So.. how about I just keep my money in my pocket? That'd be nice.
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  #166    
Old October 24th, 2012 (04:28 PM).
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i'd recommend taking this test before you vote http://www.isidewith.com/presidential-election-quiz
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  #167    
Old October 24th, 2012 (05:35 PM). Edited October 24th, 2012 by Mr. X.
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Gary Jhonson, on foreign policy, domestic policy, and environmental issues. (73%)
Jill Stein on environmental and healthcare issues (57%)
Barrack Obama on foreign policy issues (59%)
Mitt Romney on immigration and science issues (37%)

About the same as the last time. A few percentages diffriences though, since I didn't bother changing the importance bar for certian questions.

Edit - My responces.
Spoiler:

Social
Spoiler:

1. Pro-choice, but providing birth control, sex education, and social services could help reduce the number of abortions
2. Take the government out of marriage and instead make it a religious decision
3. Yes, but only in certain circumstances in which a heinous crime has been committed
4. No, it should be covered like any other prescription


Enviromental
Spoiler:

1. Yes (Because my belief wasn't a option. Mine is Global Warming is a natural process, but we are speeding it up and increasing its effects)
2. Incentivize the private sector to develop alternative forms of energy
3. Let each state determine which areas to protect
4. Yes, the future of our economy relies on the creation of jobs in sustainable energy


Economy
Spoiler:

1. Yes, and adjust the wage level according to inflation every year
2. Offset the debt by raising taxes on the rich and reduced spending
3. Yes, but only on the condition that top management be fired without compensation/Regardless, we should instead enact legislation that prevents banks from becoming too big to fail (I've already forgotten which one, although my stance is both instead of one or the other.)
4. Yes, but it was not big enough
5. Yes, but include small and organic farmers
6. Reform the current system into a voluntary “opt-in” program
7. Abolish the IRS and pass the Fair Tax legislation
8. No, but in order to receive benefits they should be looking for a job or enrolled in education and job training programs


Domestic
Spoiler:

1. Yes, require strict background checks, psychological testing, and training
2. No, and pass strict laws prohibiting any government surveillance
3. No, the government should prosecute copyright violators but not regulate the internet
4. Let each state decide
5. Yes, but not all drugs
6. No, and laws should be passed prohibiting minority groups from receiving any favorable treatment (Affirmitive action is, essentially, racism. We shouldn't treat people diffrient, or give them special advantages, just because of skin color. Let their place in life be determined by skill, not by skin color.)
7. No, corporations are not people and should not be allowed to finance political campaigns


Heathcare
Spoiler:

1. Yes. Legalize, tax, and regulate marijuana instead of criminalizing it
2. Yes, I support a majority of the plan but not all aspects
3. Transform the system into a Canadian or European style single payer system that can negotiate pricing for medication and treatments


Foreign Policy
Spoiler:

1. No, we have more important domestic issues to worry about
2. Yes, and only approve future wars through Congress
3. Scale back our current involvement
4. Yes (Frankly, a trade embargo in times of economic distress, especially with a country that poses no threat or could post a threat, is very very stupid.)
5. No, we should not give aid to any foreign nations (And alliances should only be to offer assistance if the allied country is attacked, not if they decide to act like a rabid dog and attack anything in sight. We should protect them, not be their personal attack dog.)
6. Maintain diplomacy while discouraging use of nuclear weapons
7. Do not get involved
8. No, they should be tried in military tribunals but not subject to torture


Immigration
Spoiler:

1. No, all illegal immigrants should be deported
2. No, deport illegal immigrants seeking healthcare
3. No, remove them from the U.S.


Science
Spoiler:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

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  #168    
Old October 24th, 2012 (07:12 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:

Actually, I will go on a small tirade. There's a Tea Party backed Republican candidate for the US Senate in Indiana, Richard Mourdock, who's recently said: "I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God," Mourdock said. "And even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

And the Republican Party is still supporting him. Just like they're supporting Todd "Legitimate Rape" Akin.
Engage rant mode


The fact that this is acceptable is mind numbing. So basically, we have 2 congressional candidates who believe rape is a valid contraception/act of God, we have another congressman who said quote "Evolution is a lie straight from the pit of hell". We also have other GOP legislators from Arkansas named Don Fuqua and Jon Hubbard who thinks the death penalty is permissible for unruly children, we should deport all the Muslims, and slavery was a blessing for black people, respectively. Utterly disgusting.
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Old October 24th, 2012 (07:28 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Livewire:
Engage rant mode


The fact that this is acceptable is mind numbing. So basically, we have 2 congressional candidates who believe rape is a valid contraception/act of God, we have another congressman who said quote "Evolution is a lie straight from the pit of hell". We also have other GOP legislators from Arkansas named Don Fuqua and Jon Hubbard who thinks the death penalty is permissible for unruly children, we should deport all the Muslims, and slavery was a blessing for black people, respectively. Utterly disgusting.
Kind of want to... disagree with you unfortunately. :( I can totally get their point of view - take it from the "everything happens for a reason" mindset, if you believe that there's something that doesn't happen for a reason (and isn't ultimately controlled, like rape as mentioned) then therefore you don't believe that everything has a reason, that not everything has a purpose, and that good won't come out of everything/no end at light of tunnel, etc. I believe in the whole everything happens for a reason, in that everything has an ultimate purpose and I can totally see their mindset here. It's not entirely religious, but it's more of a belief and therefore it's okay/acceptable for them to say because the fact that it is a legitimate belief, and without believing that God intended for it to happen then that flaws their whole logic. It's pretty much make the best of the worse situation. Bad things happen to everyone yeah, and those things, according to some of our mindsets, are for a reason and generally make us stronger as people.

Hope that made sense and didn't go too off-topic! Just wanted to add in another view. Also, to add in, if I'd side with anyone it'd be Democrats, which... might say something? idk.
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Old October 24th, 2012 (07:47 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Livewire:
Engage rant mode


The fact that this is acceptable is mind numbing. So basically, we have 2 congressional candidates who believe rape is a valid contraception/act of God, we have another congressman who said quote "Evolution is a lie straight from the pit of hell". We also have other GOP legislators from Arkansas named Don Fuqua and Jon Hubbard who thinks the death penalty is permissible for unruly children, we should deport all the Muslims, and slavery was a blessing for black people, respectively. Utterly disgusting.
I live in Arkansas, and people like this are a prime example of why I really want to get out of this country The fact that people still support this kind of **** just makes it even worse..

I, partially, agree with the muslim comment though. If we got some that are here illegally, get rid of them. If they are here legally though, leave them alone.
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  #171    
Old October 24th, 2012 (08:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Forever:


Kind of want to... disagree with you unfortunately. :( I can totally get their point of view - take it from the "everything happens for a reason" mindset, if you believe that there's something that doesn't happen for a reason (and isn't ultimately controlled, like rape as mentioned) then therefore you don't believe that everything has a reason, that not everything has a purpose, and that good won't come out of everything/no end at light of tunnel, etc. I believe in the whole everything happens for a reason, in that everything has an ultimate purpose and I can totally see their mindset here. It's not entirely religious, but it's more of a belief and therefore it's okay/acceptable for them to say because the fact that it is a legitimate belief, and without believing that God intended for it to happen then that flaws their whole logic. It's pretty much make the best of the worse situation. Bad things happen to everyone yeah, and those things, according to some of our mindsets, are for a reason and generally make us stronger as people.

Hope that made sense and didn't go too off-topic! Just wanted to add in another view. Also, to add in, if I'd side with anyone it'd be Democrats, which... might say something? idk.

There can be no logical, rational defense of that kind of commentary. Seriously. By elected officials no less. Particularly ones on the House Board of Science & Technology.
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Old October 24th, 2012 (08:59 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Livewire:
There can be no logical, rational defense of that kind of commentary. Seriously. By elected officials no less. Particularly ones on the House Board of Science & Technology.
I commend Representative Akin for his principled defense of human life, and I commend Representative Broun for dismissing the evolution myth, and affirming his faith in Christ Our Lord.
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  #173    
Old October 24th, 2012 (09:19 PM). Edited October 24th, 2012 by Stormbringer.
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Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
I commend Representative Akin for his principled defense of human life, and I commend Representative Broun for dismissing the evolution myth, and affirming his faith in Christ Our Lord.
I would suggest then that Mr. Akin & Mr. Broun and any who think like them to reaquaint themselves with basic biology & geologic principles.
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Old October 24th, 2012 (10:38 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
Gary Jhonson, on foreign policy, domestic policy, and environmental issues. (73%)
Jill Stein on environmental and healthcare issues (57%)
Barrack Obama on foreign policy issues (59%)
Mitt Romney on immigration and science issues (37%)

About the same as the last time. A few percentages diffriences though, since I didn't bother changing the importance bar for certian questions.
My results: 95% Jill Stein: on foreign policy, economic, domestic policy, science, social, environmental, immigration, and healthcare issues

90% Barack Obama: on foreign policy, economic, social, science, environmental, and healthcare issues

73% Rocky Anderson: on foreign policy, domestic policy, social, environmental, and healthcare issues

5% Mitt Romney: no major issues

Parties you side with...

99% Democrat 94% Green 25% Libertarian 1% Republican

Why am I not surprised.
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Old October 24th, 2012 (11:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Livewire:
I would suggest then that Mr. Akin & Mr. Broun and any who think like them to reaquaint themselves with basic biology & geologic principles.
And that they get off the Science & Technology board.

Seriously. If Religious nutjobs had their way then the earth would only be 5000-6000 years old, the world would be flat, the Earth would be the center of this solar system, medical technology would be lesser then it already is, and we would never have had gone to space because leaving the planet would be seen as leaving God.

Religion. The greatest suppressor of advancement, and the greatest danger to future advancement.
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