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  #101    
Old March 20th, 2013, 03:32 PM
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Let's recap. BC is meant to be used for discussions about battling strategy and team building, but with those two topics being such major parts of the Pokemon games, it becomes a gray area and many of those type of threads end up in other forums. Competitive and in-game discussion are not quite different enough to remain separate, and the differences between the two can sometimes lead to confusion. Getting rid of BC would fix this, then the other forums can used for all things related to their generation of games. However, that would leave us with BC's sub-forums: E&G, CTH, and ITH. I'm suggesting that we split E&G and CTH/ITH into separate forums. The content of these forums will remain unchanged (aside from E&G getting a few of BC's stickies). For example, the forum that CTH and ITH could be merged into (PTH) will contain their threads, which are only RMT threads. Anyway, we're left with a few options:

1) Separate E&G and PTH into different forums.
2) PTH becomes a sub-forum of E&G
3) E&G becomes a sub-forum of PTH

PTH would be active and important enough to become its own forum. Making E&G into a sub-forum of PTH wouldn't make very much sense, as battling events have very little to do with team help. While E&G may not be the most active forum around, it just doesn't logically fit in any other forum. I think E&G is important enough to be a separate forum, because there are still plenty of new people that join to battle. Indeed, it would be weird to shove the battling equivalent of TC in a team help forum. Maybe it's just me, but I also found that it's easy to keep E&G active when there are a steady flow of events. PTH generally stays active because of new people posting their teams, so that's a given.
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  #102    
Old March 20th, 2013, 09:55 PM
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uhhhh i don't get the purpose of this at all ?

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=296905 would be in PCG

and http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=296761 would be nowhere

and http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=287338 would be on smogon

basically ^

because you're pretty much taking out battle center and it really makes no sense, are we not going to be able to have any sort of discussion on the forums here at all or??????? because honestly i find that dumb.. :/ we've had good discussion going on and it's the users fault, not the forum. you should concentrate more on actually getting activity rather than just hosting tournaments people forget about. this place is seriously going downhill. at this point i'm considering giving up on this hell hole of a "battling" forum.
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  #103    
Old March 21st, 2013, 12:52 AM
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Mm to be quite honest, I can see what Wolf is saying. Having read through his post a second time, the only thing I would be unsure about is how EG and PTH go together, they're both aspects of competitive battling in their own ways but yeah it's like putting jam and vegemite on the same sandwich if that makes sense. But then again personally I find that the RMT section is rather inactive at the moment and I'm not sure if it would get enough activity to get it's own seperate little forum section instead of being a subforum of BC. I don't know, but right now if I had to choose one of those three options, I'd say just seperate them both honestly. Although they might not be the most active forums on earth, it won't make complete sense either making one or another a subforum of the other.

Also I don't think Wolf is necessarily saying that we should abolish all sorts of discussions in BC completely, but that quite a few threads created here could also belong in other forums? I dunno that's how I took it in as, but I'm not sure about anybody else. Also I'm sorry if this post isn't making much sense but then again I'm going to say the thread that Nica thought would belong in Smogon can also belong here! This is a battle section after all while Smogon is a battling community and they sort of go together don't they to be honest? A battling related thread in a competitive battling section. Mm I'm not sure, if you need clarifying on what I'm going on about feel free to ask! But yeah I'd also suggest a boost of activity if possible, it has been rather inactive at times at least in my opinion. Also the tournaments here are great to be honest, they use a whole wide range of tiers, throw in some creativity and you have some insanely good tournaments right there. I'm not sure why BC's activity is quite low honestly, but if anyone thinks or knows why then feel free to say. :3. Also sorry again if this makes no sense at all, you can always say and I'll try explain it more clearly. :3
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  #104    
Old March 21st, 2013, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post
uhhhh i don't get the purpose of this at all ?

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=296905 would be in PCG

and http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=296761 would be nowhere

and http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=287338 would be on smogon

basically ^

because you're pretty much taking out battle center and it really makes no sense, are we not going to be able to have any sort of discussion on the forums here at all or??????? because honestly i find that dumb.. :/ we've had good discussion going on and it's the users fault, not the forum. you should concentrate more on actually getting activity rather than just hosting tournaments people forget about. this place is seriously going downhill. at this point i'm considering giving up on this hell hole of a "battling" forum.
I explained this in my other post, but what I'm saying is that competitive discussion would go in the "# Generation" forums depending on which generation the metagame is in. Your battle log would go in the Fifth Generation Pokemon Series forum, because the battle was done in the fifth generation. The same goes for your other thread, BW NU Discussion, etc.

Basically, I don't think there's enough competitive discussion for it to be separated from in-game discussion any longer. For example, one could easily make a more "competitive"-focused post in this thread. Some posts are very close to that anyway. Think of it this way: it would be like Smogon before they changed their forum layout. All of their fifth generation discussion went in the forum called "Dragonspiral Tower" even if the discussion isn't competitive- or metagame-related. Of course, they have split up the forums for each metagame because they have the activity, but we don't.

Additionally, casual battling tends to get more discussion in the other "# Generation" forums, yet BC is designed for it. I don't think there's a strong enough difference between BC and those other forums to remain divided. (Sorry if I'm confusing y'all, I'm probably not doing the best I could at explaining this, haha.)
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  #105    
Old March 21st, 2013, 09:55 AM
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While I fear I may be out of place posting, I have some scattered thoughts that I might as well share.

It wasn't that long ago that we combined Battle Stadium and Strategies and Movesets into Competitive Battling Center. Then it turned into Battle Center and the sub forums were reorganized. And now another realignment is being proposed, it seems. But...

It's not like any of these shifts have made any kind of difference in terms of activity or even organization. Isn't this is to some degree a solution in search of a problem? What does this solve? Why is this necessary? Is there really an issue with the main forum as a catch-all as it is? Do battle logs (remember those?), "is Reuniclus Uber?" and *insert thread listing twenty different NU Pokemon and their movesets* really belong in the same forum that postulates that N's Castle looks really cool? Also,

Quote:
Competitive Battling Center was renamed to the Battle Center to accommodate discussion related to in-game battling strategy and team building. However, a major problem remains from that change: in-game battling discussion is already discussed in the other Pokemon gaming forums.
I am honestly not trying to be rude, but if that's the case, why was the change made in the first place? We accommodated the forum to include something that was already covered by other forums, as far as I can tell. Isn't that change the source of the problem then? Pardon me if I'm misunderstanding those words, but that's what it seems like to me. Was there actually a need to accommodate in-game discussion in the first place? And was there any discussion to accommodate--the main forum seems awfully competitive heavy right now? Besides its inactivity, what was wrong with Competitive Battling Center? Or just keeping the forum the same and removing the first word from the title to still encompass in-game teams--but notably not in-game discussion?

I think the only thing that really matters is just that the competitive aspects of PC remain centralized in one place (I know this is redundant), or two if you really wish to separate RMTs (old S&M) and E&G (old Battle Stadium). Competitive battling is its own thing--it's not in-game, it's not asking if someone has run into the RSE Thunder/Thunderbolt glitch, it's not...any of those things. I know the competitive community is less distinctive now that it's more casual and people don't run around like arrogant jerks all the time, but if our competitive community has its own place for organization (E&G), shouldn't it have a substantive (and focused) forum too?

(In-game team help was a tacked on forum that had some vague "maybe in-game players will latch on to competitive" hope attached to it but it never really fit. Couldn't it fit as a Pokemon Gaming general subforum while old Battle Stadium and old S&M would essentially be put back in place?)

I know that "old S&M" is basically toast activity-wise, but just because something isn't active doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. We might as well get rid of Spinoff games and really the pre-gen 4 forums too then. A competitive forum, due to the server's presence, will never be the cornerstone of the community like it once was. Okay, but it should still exist as a coherent, focused forum like the rest of them. Why scatter these elements?

I am honestly not trying to be difficult. But isn't this solving a problem that doesn't really exist at the expense of an inactive but perfectly functional main forum...?
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  #106    
Old March 21st, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Fair enough. I think I was in the state wanting to change just for the sake of changing. I was a bit too overzealous with the idea, which was I wanted to get some opinions on it first. As I think about it more, I can't say it would be worth it in the end and the change would possibly cause more confusion. I suppose one shouldn't fix what isn't broken, eh? BC is fine the way it is right now. To be honest, I doubt it's worth changing around forums because competitive discussion is almost nonexistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
I am honestly not trying to be rude, but if that's the case, why was the change made in the first place?
It was changed so that it would be less confusing on whether or not threads related to casual battling are allowed. This includes casual battling events, in-game team help, along with discussions. A less restricting name that better represents the content it includes. While discussing this forum reorganization, I did think that the name change was the root cause of the "problem," but the pros in keeping BC's name outweigh the cons in my opinion.
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Last edited by wolf; March 21st, 2013 at 11:10 AM.
  #107    
Old April 5th, 2013, 07:37 AM
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I had this idea where we vote on a metagame around every two months, and our community would focus on playing and learning that metagame. For example, a "Discussion & Team Building Hub" could be made for discussion on the metagame and can be used for anyone needing assistance with the metagame or team building (but RMTs would still go in the team help sections). This hub would include links to other related threads that are part of this in addition to helpful resources. We could possibly have topics like "What are you currently using?" every week, and so on. We could have a special ladder on the server for practicing and just the usual laddering. While our ladders tend to not get used because there isn't enough people looking for a battle at a time, this would fix that. In a sense, it would unify our community because we would each be playing a certain metagame every two months. Everyone would be on a similar ground, so to speak. Additionally, a Community Create-A-Team could be made for helping us understand the metagame more, and possibly help those that aren't good at team building. Near the end of this (after a month or so), there would be a tournament based on this metagame to see how much better everyone has gotten. Then, we would move onto a different metagame to keep things fresh.

But yeah, I was thinking about giving this a shot. If anyone's interested, like this or reply to it. This would let me know if there are people that actually want this.

Edit: Never mind. I've had a change of heart on the way I view BC as a forum and community.
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Last edited by wolf; April 5th, 2013 at 10:00 AM.
  #108    
Old April 7th, 2013, 06:43 AM
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Just a suggestion here, but with all of the new randbat formats now implemented and working properly, I think that now we can start doing more randbat tournies to make the community more active as a whole. Maybe have a poll that starts on Monday and ends Saturday, and vote on which randbat format we would like to have a tournament based on Saturday. For the easier battles(1 vs 1 ranbats,CC) it could be best of 5, while the others can be just regular single elimination. I know that we tried to get weekly tournaments going before and then it kind of died do to server drama and other tournies getting in the way, but I feel that it is worth a shot to try to get them going again.

I didn't know whether to post this here or the Server thread, so can you move it if necessary?
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Last edited by Castform; April 7th, 2013 at 07:00 AM.
  #109    
Old April 8th, 2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jellicentfan1 View Post
Just a suggestion here, but with all of the new randbat formats now implemented and working properly, I think that now we can start doing more randbat tournies to make the community more active as a whole. Maybe have a poll that starts on Monday and ends Saturday, and vote on which randbat format we would like to have a tournament based on Saturday. For the easier battles(1 vs 1 ranbats,CC) it could be best of 5, while the others can be just regular single elimination. I know that we tried to get weekly tournaments going before and then it kind of died do to server drama and other tournies getting in the way, but I feel that it is worth a shot to try to get them going again.

I didn't know whether to post this here or the Server thread, so can you move it if necessary?
boom

By the way, I've been thinking about hosting more than just one server tournament throughout the week and possibly getting more hosts than just myself. However, I don't think there's enough interest or activity.

I will also be posting an event related to Randbats soon.
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  #110    
Old April 8th, 2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
boom

By the way, I've been thinking about hosting more than just one server tournament throughout the week and possibly getting more hosts than just myself. However, I don't think there's enough interest or activity.

I will also be posting an event related to Randbats soon.
Must someone be a mod to host events? If this isn't the case, i could lend a hand.
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  #111    
Old April 10th, 2013, 03:41 PM
Stormborn
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Personally I think you need a Daily Chit-Chat thread here.

It'll be useful if your server goes down and it'll encourage more activity here. It seems like a place for spam but it might be something people look for when they come on here. As it stands the forum is well...pretty dead. Productive conversation can be had with a little moderation.

Just a suggestion.
  #112    
Old April 10th, 2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormborn View Post
Personally I think you need a Daily Chit-Chat thread here.

It'll be useful if your server goes down and it'll encourage more activity here. It seems like a place for spam but it might be something people look for when they come on here. As it stands the forum is well...pretty dead. Productive conversation can be had with a little moderation.

Just a suggestion.
The server takes the place of any kind of DCC around here. It's either one or the other, DCC or the server, and it can't really be both, I'd imagine. x_x
  #113    
Old April 10th, 2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
The server takes the place of any kind of DCC around here. It's either one or the other, DCC or the server, and it can't really be both, I'd imagine. x_x
Ah alright, that's fine.

But isn't that also a small problem?

All the discussion is on the server while the forum itself receives little to no activity. The two should be able to co-exist. The main forum probably hasn't even received 10 posts in the last few days. I think a DCC could go a long way to inviting more people to actually come into the BC and perhaps start some other discussions. I see you have emblems but in all honesty do people really care too much about them?

Just my 2 cents.
  #114    
Old April 10th, 2013, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormborn View Post
Ah alright, that's fine.

But isn't that also a small problem?

All the discussion is on the server while the forum itself receives little to no activity. The two should be able to co-exist. The main forum probably hasn't even received 10 posts in the last few days. I think a DCC could go a long way to inviting more people to actually come into the BC and perhaps start some other discussions. I see you have emblems but in all honesty do people really care too much about them?

Just my 2 cents.
Mmm, I apologize for not being too thorough with my posts. Maybe I should clarify a bit more.

Yes, the regulars of the Battle Center (as well as the server) are very well aware of the activity. But really, it rests in the hands of the users. It has been like this for years, and we've tried pretty much everything under the sun. Heck, even including a DCC! But how successful would a DCC be, in that sense? You would have to have a good amount of regulars to even sustain the activity in the DCC, so there's an issue there, I suppose.

In short, the problem has, and always will be just actually keeping regulars here (if I'm correct). RMT's aren't too popular, and there aren't many rating teams either. It's an ongoing problem that, sadly, we look at and think that not much can be done about. However, if you have any additional suggestions to help remedy the issue, then we're all ears, really. n_n
  #115    
Old April 10th, 2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Mmm, I apologize for not being too thorough with my posts. Maybe I should clarify a bit more.

Yes, the regulars of the Battle Center (as well as the server) are very well aware of the activity. But really, it rests in the hands of the users. It has been like this for years, and we've tried pretty much everything under the sun. Heck, even including a DCC! But how successful would a DCC be, in that sense? You would have to have a good amount of regulars to even sustain the activity in the DCC, so there's an issue there, I suppose.

In short, the problem has, and always will be just actually keeping regulars here (if I'm correct). RMT's aren't too popular, and there aren't many rating teams either. It's an ongoing problem that, sadly, we look at and think that not much can be done about. However, if you have any additional suggestions to help remedy the issue, then we're all ears, really. n_n
And I apologize for being too harsh.

I see, did it work in the past? If there was some productive discussion in the past I can't see the harm in bringing it back. Anything goes I suppose?

As for the lack of interest, I honestly think blame on it on how goddamn awful BW2 OU is. As long time competitive battler the Uber-clone OU has become is an insult to anyone who played competitively in previous generations. Make X/Y will be your chance to turn it all around, although honestly nothing can save that piece of crap in my eyes @.@
  #116    
Old April 10th, 2013, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNathan View Post
Must someone be a mod to host events? If this isn't the case, i could lend a hand.
Not necessarily. It depends on what you mean, if you mean posting a tournament here in BC, then anyone may start one as long as there are rules and all the necessary things to make a successful tournament and where it's going to be hosted whether over wi-fi or the server etc. If you mean on the server, yes I believe anyone can. It says in the group command that only mods and above can host tournaments but I believe from memory anyone can at the server, you just have to make sure you're clear and helpful on what the tournament is about etc. Although I must admit most tournaments held on the server are held by mods and above and they're rather rare honestly other than Commday ones.

Also it'd be great if more people could lend a hand! I'm agreeing completely with Jelli with the new tiered randbats of more tournaments focusing on them. I guess a poll could work but what if there are two with tied numbers of people who are in favour of certain tournaments? Would an admin then decide which one to host or would they both be hosted? But yeah I still support this idea majorly. :>

As for a DCC being started in the BC Community, I suppose something like that could also work. Except then again the DCC in CCP, sort of can discuss anything in general really. Although a DCC focusing on competitive battling would bring activity to this forum, seeing as it's rather dead at times. The lack of interest is most likely coming from B/W2's OU, it was a bit bland and boring honestly so I'm agreeing with Storm. But that's my input on all of these suggestions. n_n
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  #117    
Old April 11th, 2013, 08:39 AM
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The battle server doesn't take away much activity from BC. They've become separate entities over the years, and the server is no longer a chatroom for BC regulars, but as an alternative to the official PC Chat. Battling and its related topics are rarely discussed on the server, and plenty of people that visit the server don't battle at all.

I've contemplated about reviving the DCC, but the problems from the previous DCC would likely remain. The previous DCC rarely featured any discussion on battling; it was mostly used as a way to see if the server was down, which happened pretty frequently back in the day. It was occasionally used by new players asking for help or by people wanting to post recent leaks about the upcoming Generation V. However, both of those topics (and everything else in the DCC) could belong in separate threads. In fact, there was a thread dedicated to speculation and discussion of the upcoming Generation V, and the DCC was just taking away activity from that thread. The DCC was generally unused and dead for the most part, and it was stealing activity from other threads when it was used.

I think the main problem is that PC's battle community (the server, basically) is ironically not very interested in battling to begin with. The Random Battle metagame (aka Randbats) is largely popular at PC because there's no knowledge of competitive battling required to play in the metagame. Miss Doronjo's Fortune Cup was probably popular for the same reasons. Anyone can simply start up a battle and play thanks to the randomized teams. People are just not interested enough in battling to spend the time to make teams or learn a metagame's quirks. We're not so much a competitive battling community, but a casual one. This might not be bad for BC though, and I've been thinking of ways to take advantage of this. i.e. I've made different versions of Randbats on the server, and I will be posting a few events related to Randbats soon.

Anyway, what BC really needs right now is more interesting discussions that don't pertain to a specific metagame (except Randbats). The more of those we have, the more people will visit BC. That's really all there is to it. Events help, but people tend to get burnt out over them if we have too much. RMTs are nice too, but most people are more interested in discussions than with helping people. Most of PC's battle community doesn't really know much about team building anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNathan View Post
Must someone be a mod to host events? If this isn't the case, i could lend a hand.
If you mean hosting the "Weekly Server Tournaments," I'm currently not looking for help. But I will ask for more hosts if I decide to plan more server tournaments. Of course, you can always make your own forum or server tournaments.
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Last edited by wolf; April 11th, 2013 at 08:46 AM.
  #118    
Old April 12th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Stormborn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
The battle server doesn't take away much activity from BC. They've become separate entities over the years, and the server is no longer a chatroom for BC regulars, but as an alternative to the official PC Chat. Battling and its related topics are rarely discussed on the server, and plenty of people that visit the server don't battle at all.

I've contemplated about reviving the DCC, but the problems from the previous DCC would likely remain. The previous DCC rarely featured any discussion on battling; it was mostly used as a way to see if the server was down, which happened pretty frequently back in the day. It was occasionally used by new players asking for help or by people wanting to post recent leaks about the upcoming Generation V. However, both of those topics (and everything else in the DCC) could belong in separate threads. In fact, there was a thread dedicated to speculation and discussion of the upcoming Generation V, and the DCC was just taking away activity from that thread. The DCC was generally unused and dead for the most part, and it was stealing activity from other threads when it was used.

I think the main problem is that PC's battle community (the server, basically) is ironically not very interested in battling to begin with. The Random Battle metagame (aka Randbats) is largely popular at PC because there's no knowledge of competitive battling required to play in the metagame. Miss Doronjo's Fortune Cup was probably popular for the same reasons. Anyone can simply start up a battle and play thanks to the randomized teams. People are just not interested enough in battling to spend the time to make teams or learn a metagame's quirks. We're not so much a competitive battling community, but a casual one. This might not be bad for BC though, and I've been thinking of ways to take advantage of this. i.e. I've made different versions of Randbats on the server, and I will be posting a few events related to Randbats soon.

Anyway, what BC really needs right now is more interesting discussions that don't pertain to a specific metagame (except Randbats). The more of those we have, the more people will visit BC. That's really all there is to it. Events help, but people tend to get burnt out over them if we have too much. RMTs are nice too, but most people are more interested in discussions than with helping people. Most of PC's battle community doesn't really know much about team building anyway.


If you mean hosting the "Weekly Server Tournaments," I'm currently not looking for help. But I will ask for more hosts if I decide to plan more server tournaments. Of course, you can always make your own forum or server tournaments.
I still think it's viable, at the expense of sounding a little condescending there honestly isn't much activity to take away from ;( It'll still provide a bigger incentive for people to go on the main forum, I mean I figure although it may not always be competitive chat, it will sometimes be and sometimes not but perhaps people will be more inclined to check and reply to some of the topics on the main forum after looking at the DCC. As it stands only the Tournaments & RMT section gets replies.

The lack of interest in battling probably stems from the fact that this generation simply isn't that good, which is something beyond your control. Casual is fine honestly and it prevents you from becoming a "Smogon clone" but competitive spirit helps keep a forum alive. It's why Smogon does so well and why I hear PC did well back in the old 2007-08 days. There will definitely be an inflow of interest when XY hits and that's your chance to get this forum back on it's feet.
  #119    
Old April 12th, 2013, 08:08 PM
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I forgive you, Chris Bosh.
 
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Quote:
I think the main problem is that PC's battle community (the server, basically) is ironically not very interested in battling to begin with.
Quote:
Anyone can simply start up a battle and play thanks to the randomized teams. People are just not interested enough in battling to spend the time to make teams or learn a metagame's quirks.
Quote:
Anyway, what BC really needs right now is more interesting discussions that don't pertain to a specific metagame (except Randbats). The more of those we have, the more people will visit BC. That's really all there is to it. Events help, but people tend to get burnt out over them if we have too much. RMTs are nice too, but most people are more interested in discussions than with helping people. Most of PC's battle community doesn't really know much about team building anyway.
I'm quoting this not to agree or disagree (I wouldn't know) but just to point out that these things really say a lot. We're not very interested in battling? We'll only do it with randomized teams? People get burnt out quickly? Most people don't know how to teambuild?

If those things really are the reality here...what's the point of even trying anything? If people don't care to battle they certainly won't care to discuss it, right? How can you make Battle Center active if there isn't much emphasis on competitive battling? Or battling in general?

If people want a casual chatroom feel to PC's battling scene, that's fine, but for your sake I wouldn't invest much in the forum itself. It was hard enough to get it active (we failed) when people played competitively. If the most people will commit to is randbats, forget about it.

(I would argue that Battle Center needs to return to its competitive roots, but forums are about the desires of their members rather than long-gone veterans who don't understand new realities. But I thought I'd share my opinion nonetheless.)


EDIT: BW being a joke is a problem but the "just blame the meta" mindset I think absolves individual users of responsibility when you can in fact find good (and fairly modern) metagames. There are obviously practicality concerns (mainly Showdown and getting new users to play old games or with weaker Pokemon), but thought I'd throw this out there anyway.
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  #120    
Old April 12th, 2013, 08:14 PM
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I agree we should be more competitive. I'm one of the few that actually do actively play competitively, and I'm deterred from making threads here, or discussing stuff here purely because people here barely care, so instead I direct my attention to Smogon. If people did get an interest in competitive somehow, then considering the userbase something could come from that and there might be hope. But as Anti was saying, if it's only randbats there's no real hope for anything in the forum - people need a reason to post/discuss, and the best way to do that is through competitive, really. :(
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  #121    
Old April 12th, 2013, 10:33 PM
Stormborn
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It does look like Smogon is a shell of it's former self as well. They're not exactly lacking for activity but they seemed to be much more active back in the day. The plague that is BW

And I'd also agree with Anti, RandBats will not cut it. Somehow you'll have to spur some interest in competitive battling which looks to be...a difficult task. Only then will there be proper discussion and more people going around rating teams.
  #122    
Old April 13th, 2013, 01:37 PM
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wolf
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
I could try making another DCC, but I still don't see how it will be any different from the last three. I think more individual threads would benefit the forum more, and possibly bring in more members and interest those in competitive battling. Clumping all of it into one thread doesn't really help at all. I learned from the many failed metagame discussions that every thread in BC needs to have a dedicated topic, otherwise it will just go downhill. The forum needs a dedicated community first before the new DCC can be successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormborn View Post
As it stands only the Tournaments & RMT section gets replies.
Because BC's main forum hasn't had any interesting threads in a long time, while E&G gets the occasional successful event (that relies a lot on the battle server) and the team help sections generally have a constant flow of RMTs from new users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
(I would argue that Battle Center needs to return to its competitive roots, but forums are about the desires of their members rather than long-gone veterans who don't understand new realities. But I thought I'd share my opinion nonetheless.)
That's my point. We've been trying to bring BC back to its competitive roots for the past ~4-5 years, and I don't think it's going to work no matter how many times we try. It's simply a lost cause. We're swimming against the current by trying to make this forum more competitive when PC's battle community is mostly "casual." If PC's battlers have no interest in doing this, why should we do this over doing something they actually want? i.e. Taking advantage of the popularity of the server, Randbats, etc. You know, doing something people want. However, I do think BC could use some threads that are related to competitive battling, simply to keep it from being completely dead. But I think it's a waste of effort in making this a thriving competitive battling community that's essentially a second Smogon. One of the big problems with BC is that there's no reason to use this forum instead of Smogon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
BW being a joke is a problem but the "just blame the meta" mindset I think absolves individual users of responsibility when you can in fact find good (and fairly modern) metagames. There are obviously practicality concerns (mainly Showdown and getting new users to play old games or with weaker Pokemon), but thought I'd throw this out there anyway.
I agree. We blamed Platinum for ruining DP OU and killing off PC's competitive scene. We just waited until generation five because we expected a better OU tier to come along and save us. Look at how that helped us. Generation five barely brought us any activity, even at the beginning of its life. The problem isn't the metagames; BW NU, UU, RU, etc. are pretty popular here at PC and there's definitely some interest there. But there isn't enough interest to start up things dedicated to the metagames and expect people to actively battle using those metagames. Our battlers play in those metagames but I doubt that they do it consistently every week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
If people want a casual chatroom feel to PC's battling scene, that's fine, but for your sake I wouldn't invest much in the forum itself. It was hard enough to get it active (we failed) when people played competitively. If the most people will commit to is randbats, forget about it.
This is the reason why I put more effort into improving the PC Battle Server. Why? Because it works. People enjoy using the server more than they do with BC (myself included), and it has always been like that since the battle server's inception. It's apparently the most active chatroom PC has right now, and it has always had an active and tight-knit community.
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  #123    
Old April 13th, 2013, 07:22 PM
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To add in my two cents, I always felt that, even with regards to how popular randbats are, that we're also decently competitive to some sort of extent. When Wolf first mentioned PU on the server, I remember there being tons of PU battles, and the same thing on Comm day with other tiered battles as well. It's not that we're not so much interested in competitive; we are! Sure, it doesn't come up as a daily topic, because (at least for me) competitive Pokemon isn't really something you discuss when you wake up, get out of bed, or get home from a long day of school. At least, not initially.

We can /be/ competitive, and it has been proven before that we very well have the potential to be. I just feel like it has to occur on it's own time, or there has to be a given time for it to happen, and activity would literally explode from there.
  #124    
Old April 13th, 2013, 08:46 PM
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Anti
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Quote:
That's my point. We've been trying to bring BC back to its competitive roots for the past ~4-5 years, and I don't think it's going to work no matter how many times we try. It's simply a lost cause.
I honestly don't get this. We were competitive players for virtually all five years I was here. Nothing we did was to restore competitive play itself since it was assumed to be the focus--Competitive Battling Center. What we tried to do was to make the mainforum more active. In that regard I agree, there's no point in trying. However, competitive Pokemon is what this forum is and always has been.

Quote:
However, I do think BC could use some threads that are related to competitive battling, simply to keep it from being completely dead. But I think it's a waste of effort in making this a thriving competitive battling community that's essentially a second Smogon. One of the big problems with BC is that there's no reason to use this forum instead of Smogon.
I don't see how you make this leap: "if we play competitively, we become a second, inferior Smogon." We don't really have a reason to assume that, do we? Yes, Smogon is definitely competition. HUGE competition. But small burger joints exist in a world with McDonald's and BK. I almost always prefer my local ice cream shop, Johnson's, to Dairy Queen. Somehow, Pepsi and RC Cola (lol!) survive with Coke around. Those examples are much more characteristic of free markets than Pokemon forums too. Just remember that PC had a successful forum when Smogon was far superior, as it is today.

So...no reason to use the forum? How about this: it's more fun to have a casual discussion with friends than being one of several hundred posts in a thread with people you don't know. It can be more fun to play tournaments against people you know. This is certainly true of a battling event. Even the forever-dead RMT aspect of the forum is more cozy and (theoretically) has raters who know more about your team and playstyle from playing you more than a rater who doesn't have that information. Having a community actually does mean something.

I'm not saying the forum will magically revive, but I struggle with the idea that Smogon is the real issue behind its decline. Maybe people just got lazy, disinterested or both? Certainly the constant whining about Platinum didn't help. Again, I'm much more inclined to think that the members of this forum shoulder more responsibility than distant Smogon (which took very few of our regulars away in any sense, I can only think of Gamer and Vrai). Even without a centralized competitive battling force like Smogon, I think all of the problems we had/have still exist.

Quote:
We're swimming against the current by trying to make this forum more competitive when PC's battle community is mostly "casual."
I think this is a false choice. How are a casual environment and playing competitive Pokemon mutually exclusive? It is not difficult to play competitive Pokemon while not being very...well, competitive. Competitive Pokemon is just a game that engages the mind. You be very easily be casual about it. That was my approach for most of my time here.

Quote:
If PC's battlers have no interest in doing this, why should we do this over doing something they actually want? i.e. Taking advantage of the popularity of the server, Randbats, etc. You know, doing something people want.
So PC's battlers have no interest in playing competitively. Then why are they in the Competitive Battling Center? I know the name is changed but it's still the same forum, the same forum that has battling events and RMTs and competitive discussions (in theory anyway, lol). I get that the forum is inactive and increasingly irrelevant and that's fine, but if the the server is a manifestation of the spirit of this forum (which it is), people should be battling. Not just Randbats. I'm all for populism--I know that trying to impose your vision on unwilling people is a waste of time--but where do you draw the line? What if people get bored of Randbats? Will the line be something about how we shouldn't make people do what they don't want to do so no one battles at all?

What I am trying to suggest is that this forum and its server offer people the chance to make some small commitment to battling, but a commitment nonetheless. If people can't do that, they shouldn't be here. We should cater to their interests, definitely, but only within the scope of competitive battling, or at least battling. That's the name of the forum, for heaven's sake. If people don't want to rate teams, they shouldn't have to, but sticking to the subject matter of the forum? Maybe this is just a philosophical difference, but I don't see how that can't be required. (Which isn't to say that people should be battling 24/7. But it should be more frequent than it is. Or so I believe.)
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d_a-bread house: what about metagross
~wolf: ok that too
  #125    
Old April 13th, 2013, 09:07 PM
Zorua's Avatar
Zorua
Adventurous One.
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Quote:
What I am trying to suggest is that this forum and its server offer people the chance to make some small commitment to battling, but a commitment nonetheless. If people can't do that, they shouldn't be here. We should cater to their interests, definitely, but only within the scope of competitive battling, or at least battling. That's the name of the forum, for heaven's sake. If people don't want to rate teams, they shouldn't have to, but sticking to the subject matter of the forum? Maybe this is just a philosophical difference, but I don't see how that can't be required. (Which isn't to say that people should be battling 24/7. But it should be more frequent than it is. Or so I believe.)
Highly disagree. There are lots of people on the server that aren't huge battlers, and yet they hang out there. They hang out there in the community sense, and that's what I feel you're forgetting here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I'm interpreting from your posts, it seems that yes, the competitive aspect of this forum is indeed important to you, but wolf has a point here. Yes, it can very well be general disinterest, or maybe laziness for the most part, but you and wolf know as well as everyone else that every other attempt in order to alleviate the issue has failed. I'm also interpreting from your posts that competitive battling should be a more frequent atmosphere here, but again, as I meantioned in an earlier posts, not many people on the server are going to be like "oh hey, so I notice your Blissey is tackle weak". You have to take into account a large percentage and a portion of the server who may be alienated by the competitive talk, and how do you propose we include them in it? Tutoring? But we've tried that already! Maybe tutoring wasn't really done correctly, or maybe something was off with it. But the bottom line is: it was done so many times on so many occasions that it was just done and over with.

/wall of text

But yeah, I don't want to sound like I'm stomping all over what you're saying, as you bring about a perfectly legitimate concern here. Of course we could be more competitive, but it shouldn't be forced by any means. It comes and goes as it will. One moment, we could be competitive (Wolf should remember that time where pretty much almost the entire server laddered random 1 vs 1 for a good long while) and another moment, we're casual, and that's how it should be. I also want to bring up the multiple amount of times in the past where the sense of community was an issue. Remember the problem in which the regulars of PC's battling community were labeled as "intimidating"? Now anyone is literally just about free to come and go, and we have one if, if not the best sense of community a battle server could have, and we've really done an excellent job on that.

Ultimately, I feel no actual changes need to happen as far as the server itself is concerned. Sure, make a DCC and make it focus primarily on competitive things, that's fine! Leave the server for more light-hearted talk and whatnot, since that's what it's more or less about anyway. Of course it's a battle server above all else, but what's important is establishing a close, tight-knit community, and we would never really want to lose that at the risk of pushing down competitive down anyone's throats (I'm not saying you are, just generally speaking here).
 
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