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Fifth Generation Are Pokémon slaves to humans? Team Plasma thinks so. Travel the Unova region and prove them wrong in Black & White, and then return two years later in Black2 & White2.



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  #1    
Old July 23rd, 2012 (10:47 PM).
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By the debate title, I do expect you guys to debate! Or at least hopefully... :( You guys have gotten good at arguing your points lately so I'm sure you can do this for this too. n_n

Was using Unova-only Pokemon for the main story a good idea?
- Dream World included past generation Pokemon during the main story
- However Dream World could not be accessed by everyone
- Older Pokemon appear post-game
- Some people hate the Pokemon so much that they don't want to play through to the end

Those are the main thoughts that you guys will probably bring up and you can argue around those + bring in more and actually debate why it was a good idea to have just Unova Pokemon or not. Hopefully the debates idea works out!!! Also if you've USED past generation Pokemon and wanna discuss to the extent you have, there's another thread juuust for that.
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Old July 23rd, 2012 (10:55 PM).
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Well yeah of course.
The Pokemon should be specifically made for that story line. to keep it's originality.
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Old July 23rd, 2012 (10:56 PM).
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My first pokemon thing ever was pokemon black and my biggest concern was being overwhelmed with all the pokemon out there and knowing nothing about them, but I quickly learned that none of my friends knew anything about the new pokemon and that there we no old pokemon to be found. When I found this out the game seemed far less intimidating and I actually became the "source" of information on the new pokemon so it was cool. I liked it as I new nothing about pokemon and managed to beat the game.
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Old July 23rd, 2012 (11:19 PM).
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My thoughts on Unova Pokemon in the main story:

It was a nice change of pace, especially for someone like me who has been experienced in Pokemon. I remember my first reaction to the Unova Pokemon and I thought they were all terrible, but Oshawott's anime appearance changed all that.

What Game Freak were trying to do was to give players a throwback to the Red/Blue/Yellow era by having a regional Dex have only Pokemon of that generation and I think they pulled it off well.

I had fun with the Unova Pokemon, it really changed my thoughts on older games and now Black and White are my favorites. I really want some future generations to be like this. I coped well with no old Pokemon before the post-game but I just went with the flow and played it like I did with all my previous games.

In fact, I remember first reading about this on Bulbanews when Black and White details were getting revealed in 2010 and then come 2011 my love for Black and White got more noticeable cos most Unova Pokemon eventually made their way onto my favorite Pokemon list.

Unlike most older gen fans, I put my hand up to see why. I know everyone has thoughts and they don't want to play Black or White cos of the new Pokemon but once you get to know them your thoughts might change.

That's what happened to me and my experience playing Black really turned out awesome in the end. I loved the new concepts Black and White brought with it.
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Old July 23rd, 2012 (11:26 PM).
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I think using all-Unova Pokemon pre-National Dex gave the games the fresh start they needed. I was very interested in some of their designs too.
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Old July 23rd, 2012 (11:41 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
my biggest concern was being overwhelmed with all the pokemon out there and knowing nothing about them
A lot of people felt that way, and I think the main reason they did was because they wanted it to relate with generation 1 where all the Pokemon were brand new and have a completely different region.

Maybe using post-generation 5 Pokemon is a better idea for second playthroughs. Also going to note how people thought Luvdisc evolved into Alomomola, which ended up being false.
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Old July 24th, 2012 (05:10 AM).
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Since this is a debate, I don't necessarily have to argue my own opinion right? This should be fun...


Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
my biggest concern was being overwhelmed with all the pokemon out there and knowing nothing about them,

This was mine too! Other than the first game which kicked things off, there's always been a couple lines of pokemon around from gen1. (machop, geodude, zubat) Not having these really made this game feel less like the pokemon games I'd come to love, and made it hard to play through! I wanted to quit really early since not having pokemon I knew made it feel unwelcoming and was a huge turn-off. Also, instead of just making carbon copies/replacements, (roggenrola, timburr, woobat, sawk/throh, watchog,) why didn't they just give me pokemon that they had already spent a ton of time designing, naming and movesetting, instead of making me wait five years for a trashbag? It just felt like their whole goal for Unova was to grab new fans with new pokemon, what about a little fan service? I've been loyal to the series since it came out.... (I'm getting somewhat off topic)

Having all these new pokemon didn't give me that sense of excitement with the originals, since the "whole new adventure/new world of pokemon" HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE. It felt like they were forcing these pokemon with ugly designs, who I had yet to meet, down my throat, instead of allowing me to ease in to the whole experience. The main reason 100% new pokemon was bad, is made me feel unconnected to the series, alienated, unexcited to play, it made me want for the original pokemon even more because they made replacements. Overall, it was just a lot at one time. They didn't even have pikachu!
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Old July 24th, 2012 (08:17 AM).
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I think this is more discussion point than debate, but...

Quote:
Was using Unova-only Pokemon for the main story a good idea?
- Dream World included past generation Pokemon during the main story
- However Dream World could not be accessed by everyone
- Older Pokemon appear post-game
- Some people hate the Pokemon so much that they don't want to play through to the end
I think that having the Unova Pokémon exclusively during the storyline is an excellent idea, and would second this in future generations as well. Look at it this way: there are over 150 new Pokémon to catch. 146 of them - #495-640, being Snivy up to Virizion - are catchable, tradeable, and in all but a few cases, breedable before the E4 battles in the main story; I've excluded Tornadus and Thundurus as they only appear after the 8th Gym and roaming, but I've included Terrakion who is in a fixed place at Victory Road. (Of course you can import and trade others that players further ahead have already obtained, such as a Corsola or a Ditto, or even a Pikachu that someone plopped in from Gen. IV, though you can't import your own until beating the game, thus giving players a reason to try out the newer Pokémon. I'm not exploring any of that in this comment.) The number of Pokémon, if you count Zekrom, Reshiram, and other unique gift Pokémon that exist (Victini, Keldeo, Genesect, Meloetta, and so on), is 156; more than Red/Blue/Green/Yellow. If a player doesn't like this, they need to remember at one time they played a game with only 151 Pokémon TOTAL. We have more available here during the main story, and more later on for the final E4. Live with it.

At the same time, having the older Pokémon appear after the first E4 is both silly and itself storyline-inducing. You now know that you will see pretty much anything in future travels in those 5 Routes. You also know that, next time you visit the Elite 4, some of those older gen. Pokémon will appear (but still be just as easily wiped out). So in that sense, it adds one more storyline wrinkle right at the end (I don't consider the story "finished" until you meet up with the Shadow Triad for the final time). I do wish that post-E4 some map areas became tougher; that it, move the earlier areas (up to the Skyarrow Bridge) up in level and say that the Pokémon have become much stronger, and oh, by the way, something is attacking your hometown, you need to save the day...and that the townspeople themselves made remarks or even gave new items...but maybe I'm asking too much here. This is why having them appear at this point is silly; you don't have a use for most of them now other than post-game activities like breeding and EV training for use in competitive battling and the like, or as trades for an unwary new trainer wanting to trade for a Lv.89 Drowsee that will not obey him until he gets all eight badges. Or somesuch.

In other words, I like that it was just new Pokémon in the main game; it's a fresh start. I like the others coming along later on to help with breeding, etc., or unique moves for unique Pokémon; however, not a lot was done with it.

Also, FTR, post-game for me means after becoming Champion - or at least defeating him.

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Old July 24th, 2012 (09:54 AM).
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I actually liked it a lot, it was basically forcing people to use the new Pokemon and I think that helped the popularity of the new Pokemon because they seemed to have gotten a bad reception this year. I also thought that if they included older Pokemon I would just be using the same ones over and over instead of new Unova Pokemon.

I just thought they would include more popular Pokemon postgame (I kind of felt like Drifblim were everywhere, but that's probably just me) like Lucario but I guess those guys are in B2W2 soo I think that kind of makes up for it.
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Old July 24th, 2012 (01:33 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Lapras*:
I just thought they would include more popular Pokemon postgame (I kind of felt like Drifblim were everywhere, but that's probably just me) like Lucario but I guess those guys are in B2W2 soo I think that kind of makes up for it.
Actually, Lucario in the wild in that form are rare. However, Riolu are available in the Challenger's Cave with a 5% rarity.

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Old July 24th, 2012 (08:10 PM).
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Quote originally posted by CycloneGU:
If a player doesn't like this, they need to remember at one time they played a game with only 151 Pokémon TOTAL. We have more available here during the main story, and more later on for the final E4. Live with it.

At the same time, having the older Pokémon appear after the first E4 is both silly and itself storyline-inducing.
The thing is, those were the originals, so it's different! In the first games, I hadn't come to expect a certain standard of pokemon, and was rewarded. The gen V pokes just didn't do it for me, and a lot of other people. They didn't meet the standard that was set, and that's pretty much the definition of failing. Blame expectations all you want, but being forced to use ugly rehashes and silly looking pokemon with no alternative pulls the game down even more than it is with it's terrible plot and unchallenging gym leaders (but I won't even START with that). And having the older pokemon appear after is really a slap in the face. It's as if gamefreak was trolling us, which is NOT what makes a pokemon game good.

Quote originally posted by Lapras*:
I actually liked it a lot, it was basically forcing people to use the new Pokemon and I think that helped the popularity of the new Pokemon because they seemed to have gotten a bad reception this year. I also thought that if they included older Pokemon I would just be using the same ones over and over instead of new Unova Pokemon.
Gamefreak shouldn't force something on us, there's a reason they got a bad reception) If people don't like a pokemon, more exposure won't help, it'll just make the fans miserable and the company will lose loyalty (I know I have). And as you said, you would use the older ones instead of the Unova ones. ANYONE WOULD, since Unova pokemon suck.

*on a sidenote: not trying to be a bum, but it feels like I'm the only one debating here... :/
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Old July 24th, 2012 (11:02 PM).
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Quote:
Originaly posted by: GolurkIsDaBomb
Gamefreak shouldn't force something on us
I see your point here and agree to it up to a point. When I went back and played Fire Red and then Heart Gold I found myself adding random pokemon and when I came across one I used in Fire Red I quickly added it to my team. Game Freak was trying to break this habit and have people not fall back on familiar pokemon.

Quote:
Originaly posted by: GolurkIsDaBomb
They didn't meet the standard that was set, and that's pretty much the definition of failing. Blame expectations all you want, but being forced to use ugly rehashes and silly looking pokemon...

Right here you're not very clear on "standard", but I think I got what you meant. Yes, the design of pokemon is changing and no one can deny it. Back when R/B/Y came out kids had seen nothing like this and so simple design were enough to grab the kid's attention (I do NOT think that simple designs = bad designs). Now, kids have several pokemon rip-off games to choose from so in order to stand out Game Freak started to add all these different markings, spikes, and blades to make kids say "Wow this looks cool!" Let's face it, kids like spikes and swords. Getting back to the topic:

This game was designed to bring in new people to the franchise (it brought me here) and it did its job very well. I say that Black and White using only new pokemon in the beginning was a very risky move on Game Freak's part, but something they would have had to do eventually. Besides, with B/W2 they are kind of making up for the "only new pokemon in Unova" fact by bringing in a lot of old ones.
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Old July 25th, 2012 (10:04 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Slayr231:

Right here you're not very clear on "standard", but I think I got what you meant. Yes, the design of pokemon is changing and no one can deny it. Back when R/B/Y came out kids had seen nothing like this and so simple design were enough to grab the kid's attention (I do NOT think that simple designs = bad designs). Now, kids have several pokemon rip-off games to choose from so in order to stand out Game Freak started to add all these different markings, spikes, and blades to make kids say "Wow this looks cool!" Let's face it, kids like spikes and swords. Getting back to the topic:


By standard, I meant the level of art. And since a lot of people have trouble with said art (which is the main entity of the pokemon, at the very least what one judges at first sight) they should really have kept some reliable favorites. And just because kids like spikes and swords, doesn't mean everyone does. It's part of what is so unappealing which turns me and many others away from the game since the only pokemon we can use are the spikes and swords and lasers kind. If it had been half and half, let's say, more people would have enjoyed it and the games would have been more well received by the masses. As I've said before, the lack of familiar pokemon was a detriment to the games, since the games forced gimmicky pokemon on us.


Quote originally posted by Slayr231:

This game was designed to bring in new people to the franchise (it brought me here) and it did its job very well. I say that Black and White using only new pokemon in the beginning was a very risky move on Game Freak's part, but something they would have had to do eventually. Besides, with B/W2 they are kind of making up for the "only new pokemon in Unova" fact by bringing in a lot of old ones.
It may have brought its fair share of people into the franchise, but many others quit pokemon as well. They didn't HAVE to do it eventually, there's always a choice. They could have at least kept the lines that have been in EVERY SINGLE MAIN SERIES POKEMON GAME. (minus black and white) Your fact about BW2 is irrelevant, since we;re talking about Black and White. Saying that one game has done something correctly doesn't mean the other game has too. Just think of it as if Black and White first came out. No hope, just Unova pokemon all the main storyline, ruining a game that COULD have been good.
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Old July 25th, 2012 (10:46 PM).
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There is already another thread discussing the design of pokemon so let's leave that to over there.

Quote:
Originally posted by: GolurkIsDaBomb
If people don't like a pokemon, more exposure won't help
That isn't true for all people. I have read on seperate threads how people hated the new pokemon, but once they actually started to use the pokemon they wouldn't have used otherwise, they started to love the new pokemon.


Quote:
Originally posted by: GolurkIsDaBomb
No hope, just Unova pokemon all the main storyline, ruining a game that COULD have been good.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm more of a competitive battler so the sound of a generation that introduces over 150 new pokemon sounds great as it means more pokemon that can become "supercharged" as I like to call it for use against other people. I'm guessing that you're not a competitive battler (correct me if I'm wrong) so you don't really care that a lot of new pokemon are introduced at once, but you want to see them with some of the older ones as well.

On a different note, you sound like you hate ALL the new pokemon, but you have to admit there are some decent ones.
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Old July 25th, 2012 (10:54 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
There is already another thread discussing the design of pokemon so let's leave that to over there.
Yeah, I was getting a little off topic :/


Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
That isn't true for all people. I have read on seperate threads how people hated the new pokemon, but once they actually started to use the pokemon they wouldn't have used otherwise, they started to love the new pokemon.


I guess that might be true in part, but a lot of people aren't even willing to finish the game (or start it) because of the new pokemon.


Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm more of a competitive battler so the sound of a generation that introduces over 150 new pokemon sounds great as it means more pokemon that can become "supercharged" as I like to call it for use against other people. I'm guessing that you're not a competitive battler (correct me if I'm wrong) so you don't really care that a lot of new pokemon are introduced at once, but you want to see them with some of the older ones as well.


I don't competitively battle, so I don't see them in that regard. But the main question was "for the main story" not after it's ended, so...
Basically, if I was to competitively battle, the Unova pokemon wouldn't really stand in my way.


Quote originally posted by Slayr231:
On a different note, you sound like you hate ALL the new pokemon, but you have to admit there are some decent ones.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I actually love all Unova pokemon and the games. But it's fun to debate, and everyone else was just like "yay Unova pokes!" so it felt necessary to try and spark the kindling of the debate : P
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Old July 25th, 2012 (11:09 PM).
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I embraced it. I like Emboar, but I know I didnt train it as well as it could be. I still prefer the water types. I think people are putting too much into separated games. Real trainers evolve with the times just as much as the Pokemon evolve. Im sure there are still people that prefer to play 1st gen, but if you want to play on a world stage or maybe your gameboy starts breaking down. You need to upgrade. Thing is eventually the 3DS will be obsolete we have to evolve with that.
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Old July 25th, 2012 (11:36 PM).
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Quote:
it's fun to debate, and everyone else was just like "yay Unova pokes!" so it felt necessary to try and spark the kindling of the debate : P

Yah it is fun to see how well your points stand up to bashing

Quote:
Originally posted by: GolurkIsDaBomb
a lot of people aren't even willing to finish the game (or start it) because of the new pokemon.


I think that's nostalgia (I think that's how you spell it) talking for most people. For debate on this topic I found the answer in AdrianD's answer:

Quote:
Originally posted by: AdrianD
I think people are putting too much into separated games. Real trainers evolve with the times just as much as the Pokemon evolve. Im sure there are still people that prefer to play 1st gen, but if you want to play on a world stage or maybe your gameboy starts breaking down. You need to upgrade. Thing is eventually the 3DS will be obsolete we have to evolve with that.


I guess only Unova pokemon in the beginning was a huge step for a lot of people, and too big of a step for other's. Since Black was my first game I've never actually had a new generation that came out with new pokemon so it's harder for me to relate basically "giving up" the pokemon you know and trust. I just hope the people unwilling to change will hop back on at B/W2.
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Old July 26th, 2012 (04:23 AM).
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Quote originally posted by AdrianD:
I embraced it. I like Emboar, but I know I didnt train it as well as it could be. I still prefer the water types. I think people are putting too much into separated games. Real trainers evolve with the times just as much as the Pokemon evolve. Im sure there are still people that prefer to play 1st gen, but if you want to play on a world stage or maybe your gameboy starts breaking down. You need to upgrade. Thing is eventually the 3DS will be obsolete we have to evolve with that.
That's an interesting way to put it. After all, Pokémon Trainers go through evolutions, too.

"Congratulations! You have evolved into Unova Pokémon Trainer!"

"Congratulations! Your 3DS is now a 3D Boy!" (or whatever is next)

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Old August 11th, 2012 (09:56 AM).
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As someone who only recently got into Pokemon games and started with Gen. 5 (White), I was actually glad when I heard that there were only new Pokemon in the new region. Otherwise there would've been way too many for me, way too much info at once. Actually, I was a bit shocked when I first got to Rt. 16 and saw a Pokemon I didn't recognize from the Unova Pokedex. So I appreciate both the fact that the main game only uses Unova Pokemon, and the fact that you can find older Pokemon after you beat the game. I have a Yanmega in my team at the moment, and I plan on trying out others as well, like Milotic or Walrein.
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Old August 11th, 2012 (10:39 AM).
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As a player who played Gen I to Gen III multiple times and Diamond just once, I have to say that I really liked the change. It really got tiring seeing Zubat, Geodude, Magikarp and Abra all over again. I like the evolutions of all of them, and I used them often in my recent playthroughs, but it's just boring seeing them in every game.

Besides, it's not like they are unavailable. It's already been stated that you can get them via trade and Dream World, so I don't see a problem with Unova only in the wild. It's still possible to get your Kantomons after first gym.

The only older Pokemon I used was a Machop I got early in the game. I trained it until it evolved to Machoke, traded with a friend to evolve it and then ditched it since I found a better Unova substitute.
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Old August 24th, 2012 (10:04 AM).
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Location: http://goo.my/server
Gender: Female
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Quote originally posted by ZetaZaku:
As a player who played Gen I to Gen III multiple times and Diamond just once, I have to say that I really liked the change. It really got tiring seeing Zubat, Geodude, Magikarp and Abra all over again. I like the evolutions of all of them, and I used them often in my recent playthroughs, but it's just boring seeing them in every game.

Besides, it's not like they are unavailable. It's already been stated that you can get them via trade and Dream World, so I don't see a problem with Unova only in the wild. It's still possible to get your Kantomons after first gym.

The only older Pokemon I used was a Machop I got early in the game. I trained it until it evolved to Machoke, traded with a friend to evolve it and then ditched it since I found a better Unova substitute.
tbh on the Dream World note, I'm kinda of the view that older Pokemon shouldn't have been in the region BECAUSE of the Dream World. I mean you have this extra add on with lots of past Pokemon and yet you have them all running around the region. Why bring in so much old when you wanted to start over brand new? In other words I'd extend the main game thing to post game too, really.
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Old September 22nd, 2012 (08:48 PM).
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Thomas Thomas is offline
HAIL HYDRA!
Platinum Tier
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lafayette, LA
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,963
I loved that it was Gen V only in the main storyline. This is one of the main reasons why Gen V is my second favorite generation. It really made me feel like I was playing Gen I again. Everything was fresh, everything was new. It reminded me why I fell in love with the Pokemon games in the first place. When I was playing through and I encounter a Pokemon that I had never seen before I got this excitement that I hadn't felt in a long time when playing a Pokemon game.
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