< >
Hello, guest! Please log in or register.

The PokéCommunity

Go Back     The PokéCommunity Forums > Pokémon Gaming > Battling & Team Building Chit-Chat PokeCommBot is a legend (BTB DCC)

Notices

Battling & Team Building The forum designed for all of your competitive Pokémon battling needs! Here you can battle, discuss, participate in events, receive help on your team, and much more!

Reply Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old April 9th, 2014 (11:10 AM). Edited 2 Weeks Ago by wolf.
wolf's Avatar
wolf wolf is offline
ModeratorBSCSPokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Virginia, USA
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,318
This is simply a hangout for battlers of PC. :) Enjoy laid-back discussion of battling, team building, etc. PvP or PvE, competitive or casual, it all fits here. You also may talk about topics not related to battling, but please keep it in moderation.
Reply With Quote

Relevant Advertising!

  #2    
Old April 9th, 2014 (11:16 AM).
wolf's Avatar
wolf wolf is offline
ModeratorBSCSPokéCommunity Daily Staff
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Virginia, USA
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,318
To get the conversation started, any thoughts regarding the recent ban on Swagger? Do you think it was needed? Charizard also recently made it to #1 in OU usage. Do you think it's deserving of that title? Or perhaps more deserving of Ubers, hohoho.
Reply With Quote
  #3    
Old April 9th, 2014 (11:37 AM).
Nah's Avatar
Nah Nah is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: over there
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,867
Oh, so they finally finished suspect testing that? Did they just ban the move Swagger, or did they ban it in conjunction with something else (ie. Prankster)?


As for Charizard hitting #1 usage in OU, its not surprising. People have a nostalgic love for it, and it finally doesn't suck because of its Mega Evos (particulary because it has 2 of 'em).


first non-staff post of Battle Center's DCC, ♥♥♥♥♥es
My Breeding Shop (open) | PC's Intro to Competitive Battling

The Round Table: PCNation, Devil's Advocate
Reply With Quote
  #4    
Old April 9th, 2014 (1:56 PM).
Strike the Blood's Avatar
Strike the Blood Strike the Blood is offline
I am the best in the world.
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In the Flax Fields.
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 1,022
I know a lot of people used to be really annoyed with Liepard's T-Wave+Swagger combination but I don't think swagger is too much of an OP move to warrant needing a ban. Not many people run it on anything else and you wouldn't intentionally swagger a physical sweeper because you know how pokemon loves it's hax. All in all I don't feel it being banned was necessary at all.

As for Charizard-X, I've said it a million times now and it needs moving to ubers, I know stealth rock and or toxic can destroy a DD Charizard-X but before toxic finally takes down a Charizard-X it could have taken out 2-3 of your pokemon, I use it in my OU team and there have been times where it looks like I've been beaten hard but then once you get 1 DD up you can potentially get a sweep going and I am sure the people who run Roost Charizard-X's would do a lot better than I do.
Reply With Quote
  #5    
Old April 10th, 2014 (11:22 AM).
dreyko's Avatar
dreyko dreyko is offline
Isolated System.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Maryland
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
Posts: 270
This is my first time hearing that Swagger was recently banned. Im not really sure why, other than the fact that it is prety annoying to lose to hax (even though it does happen).

I am also not surprised that Charizard has become so used in OU because both of its mega evo's are pretty viable right now.
I may be bad, but i'm perfectly good at it.
3DS FC: 4012-3881-3445
Reply With Quote
  #6    
Old April 10th, 2014 (11:42 AM).
Dr. Silver's Avatar
Dr. Silver Dr. Silver is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 257
I'm really surprised to hear that something like Swagger has been considered "OP" enough to warrant a ban. Next we'll be seeing Thunder Wave or Will o Wisp under suspect testing.
Reply With Quote
  #7    
Old April 10th, 2014 (4:20 PM).
Anti's Avatar
Anti Anti is offline
return of the king
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kobe's Reality
Gender:
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 10,708
Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/

Also, just going to throw out there that Clefable is amazing with pretty much any set you run!
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?
Reply With Quote
  #8    
Old April 10th, 2014 (5:01 PM).
dreyko's Avatar
dreyko dreyko is offline
Isolated System.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Maryland
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
Posts: 270
Ya, Charizard Y is a real pain to deal with. I agree that the mega zards wont be banished to Ubers because there are still ways to deal with them.

what set do you like on clefable?
I may be bad, but i'm perfectly good at it.
3DS FC: 4012-3881-3445
Reply With Quote
  #9    
Old April 10th, 2014 (5:15 PM).
Nah's Avatar
Nah Nah is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: over there
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/

The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...


I agree with you that a more complex ban would've been better, but Smogon seems strangely reluctant to implement complex bans. And I also agree with you about Charizard.
My Breeding Shop (open) | PC's Intro to Competitive Battling

The Round Table: PCNation, Devil's Advocate
Reply With Quote
  #10    
Old April 11th, 2014 (6:57 AM).
Anti's Avatar
Anti Anti is offline
return of the king
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kobe's Reality
Gender:
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyko View Post
what set do you like on clefable?
I've been running Bold maxHP/maxDef (more or less, there's an amount of Spd I don't remember for Aeg or something like that) with [email protected] I find her use to be situational against offense, mainly acting as a lure for Ferrothorn and keeping Dragons from going wild. It also absorbs Will-O-Wisps and is the perfect switch into Conkeldurr. It's much better against stall, where it can usually get a sweep in once you remove their Heatran and Mega Venusaur. It's by no means an auto-win, but my team probably beats stall three out of four times, and Clefable (along with Thundurus with Thunderbolt/HP [email protected]) is the reason why probably.

I would probably say it's not its best set though--I like offensive Magic Guard, but it misses its Leftovers surprisingly often and is juuuuust a bit too weak statistically to be a gen three Suicune/Snorlax-like threat vs. offense. Clefable is just an amazing Pokemon. I guess that's what good typing will do for you. I find the defensive sets to be very good Pokemon when I play vs. them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner View Post
The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...
Yeah, anti-Smogon sentiment is pretty common. It's like the anti-vaccination movement of the Pokemon world. :/ (Not that Smogon isn't frustrating sometimes, or even often, but people get so worked up about it lol.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?
Reply With Quote
  #11    
Old April 11th, 2014 (7:43 AM).
Chocolate™'s Avatar
Chocolate™ Chocolate™ is offline
Awesome Dragon
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: PC.
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 672
I'm actually quite happy with the Swagger ban. I have terrible luck and Swagger makes it even worse. I know that i was not completely necessary to ban Swagger, I still feel good about it. I also kept one being wrecked by a Klefki with T-Wave, Swagger, Substitute and Foul Play.

I'm not surprised that Charizard has snatched that #1 spot. It's extremely unpredictable. There have been so many times where I've gone for the E-quake on a Charizard predicting it to be Charizard X but later realizing that it's Y. Bulk Charizard X is a pain to deal with.

Clefable is also an extremely good pokemon at this stage. I've never used it but would probably go for the same set as Anti. The thing is most people forget to carry Poison or steel types in their team and get utterly annihilated by this mon.

Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?
Reply With Quote
  #12    
Old April 12th, 2014 (10:39 AM).
ZettaSlowbro's Avatar
ZettaSlowbro ZettaSlowbro is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Jax, Fl
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Docile
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate™ View Post
Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?
Slurpuff with Belly Drum and Unburden is pretty solid if it can set up, and I think it'll end up landing in the UU tier somewhere.

White 2 FC: 4427 9506 5247
White FC: 1377 9722 4917
3DS FC: 1736 0570 0480
Reply With Quote
  #13    
Old April 12th, 2014 (11:41 AM).
dreyko's Avatar
dreyko dreyko is offline
Isolated System.
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Maryland
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
Posts: 270
Slurpuff is decently bulky as well so i could easily see it having a good support/stall role as well as an aggresive set-up role on a team.

Also i just got an Aerodactyl with five perfect IVs, buuuut speed is the odd one out. Regardless, i am still pretty happy about it :D
I may be bad, but i'm perfectly good at it.
3DS FC: 4012-3881-3445
Reply With Quote
  #14    
Old April 13th, 2014 (5:48 AM).
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
Dream Evil.
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Posts: 7,138
Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.

Pair/Bae x Poki <3
Reply With Quote
  #15    
Old April 13th, 2014 (8:20 AM).
Chocolate™'s Avatar
Chocolate™ Chocolate™ is offline
Awesome Dragon
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: PC.
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 672
I agree with Dark Azelf. Slurpuff shouldn't be used in a support rule. I like Belly Drum Slurpuff more. It just destroys stuff.

I like Clawitzer a lot. It has a great variety of moves and access to U-Turn. It also has great Sp Atck and a great ability. the only problem is it's speed. I think i would probably be in UU except for the fact that Blastoise had already proved itself as the foremost Mega Launcher user and that it has access Rapid Spin.
Reply With Quote
  #16    
Old April 13th, 2014 (3:19 PM).
Nah's Avatar
Nah Nah is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: over there
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,867
Apparently Smogon is now considering suspect testing Baton Pass.

Thoughts?
My Breeding Shop (open) | PC's Intro to Competitive Battling

The Round Table: PCNation, Devil's Advocate
Reply With Quote
  #17    
Old April 15th, 2014 (6:43 AM).
Anti's Avatar
Anti Anti is offline
return of the king
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kobe's Reality
Gender:
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 10,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt&PepperDiner View Post
They absolutely should suspect test it and I have little doubt that the result would be a well-deserved complex ban.

I think everyone can agree (or, good lord, I hope so) that no one wants a metagame where the game is over before it starts, which is to say that the team matchup more than individual play determines outcomes consistently. I realize that with so many Pokemon, you're sometimes going to have rough matchups, and that's just a part of life with team building. However, that variances comes with individual teams--not entire playstyles. How in the world is that healthy for the metagame?

And much like Swagger, what exactly is lost from testing/severely limiting BP chain teams? I know the stubbornly principled will (and have) insisted that people need to stop whining, need to adapt or change their teams to better prepare, that BP teams are easy to beat, that Smogon is ban-happy. To those people: OK, "you're right," now that you've asserted your moral superiority, can we remove such a fundamentally uncompetitive playstyle from the game? It's not like banning Swagger was any restriction on people who, you know, are actually trying to play the game, and BP is exactly the same. I know the opportunity to use the BP issue as a pretense to complain about Smogon or banning or whatever is tempting, but BP is uncompetitive and unhealthy.

(Not to get ahead of myself, but it should be a complex ban. Banning Baton Pass as a move would be unnecessary and a little too restrictive, however minor.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?
Reply With Quote
  #18    
Old April 15th, 2014 (6:48 AM).
PlatinumDude's Avatar
PlatinumDude PlatinumDude is offline
Nyeh?
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Hasty
Posts: 12,472
Send a message via Yahoo to PlatinumDude Send a message via Skype™ to PlatinumDude
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.
Just putting that out there, but Adaptability Dragalge isn't available yet. Right now, it's still mediocre.

Anyway, regarding the Baton Pass suspect testing, I'm kind of glad they're doing it, since I tend to lose to dedicated Baton Pass teams.

Reply With Quote
  #19    
Old April 15th, 2014 (6:48 AM).
Nah's Avatar
Nah Nah is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: over there
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,867
I'm not sure what's so bad about Baton Pass teams, but if they do decide to ban it, a complex ban is best. Unfortunately, that's probably not gonna happen; Smogon doesn't like to do the complex bans for some reason.


Also, why the ban now? What's so different this gen that warrants a suspect test for BP? If its that bad, why wasn't it banned last gen?
My Breeding Shop (open) | PC's Intro to Competitive Battling

The Round Table: PCNation, Devil's Advocate
Reply With Quote
  #20    
Old April 15th, 2014 (11:14 AM).
praj.pran's Avatar
praj.pran praj.pran is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Earth
Gender: Male
Posts: 38
i dont think baton pass should be ban
Reply With Quote
  #21    
Old April 16th, 2014 (12:50 PM).
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
Dream Evil.
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Posts: 7,138
Yeah banning baton pass as a whole seems silly.

Its easy to stop even when you dont really prepare for it. :/ Espeon is their only defense against a fast Taunt and they have little way in effect of stopping offensive juggernauts like Charizard, Garchomp etc. Trick/Encore also ruins them. You also have various Phazing methods.

The only thing i can think of that influence it in the ban camps favor would be the crit nerf, but i digress.

I think something like "Baton (P)Ass clause: No more than <insert arbitrary number less than 6> pokes per team with the move Baton Pass" would be better than a flat out ban.

Removing short BP chains (for example: Quiver Dance Venomoth ----> Heatran) as well as full long BP chain teams really seems well a little....restrictive and frankly, much.

Pair/Bae x Poki <3
Reply With Quote
  #22    
Old April 17th, 2014 (5:41 AM).
Anti's Avatar
Anti Anti is offline
return of the king
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kobe's Reality
Gender:
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 10,708
I certainly hope no one simply bans BP altogether, which is to say that they ban the move. That's overly restrictive.

I don't think "it's easy to stop" is a good argument. Yeah, I win many games against BP too, but I don't see how that's really relevant when this is a question of competitiveness rather than brokenness. Even so, I do want to point out that if you're dismissing it so easily, you've probably never played against a good player using it? I realize this might seem contradictory to my "no skill" assertion, but I don't think so--you have to be a D+ level player or higher to win with BP (not even close to true of offense, balance, or even stall), but being an A-level player sure doesn't hurt.

Anyway, just figured I'd reiterate the "why should anyone care if full BP chains get nerfed?" point. It's not like it adds to the metagame, and I get the principle behind "just prepare for it better," but when stall starts running things like Haze Quagsire (lol) to beat it, it's probably better to just remove the playstyle because it's not like those I listed earlier. If people started calling to remove Chansey or Clefable or something because of stall, I'd be right there with you, but BP doesn't add anything to the metagame being a cynical, robotic, and downright obnoxious playstyle. I agree that it's restrictive, any ban is, but I can't see how that restriction is harmful really.

Also you is mentioning the crit nerf is telling as it acknowledges how that's how many teams have to beat the chains if the opponent isn't totally inept.

ilu bb <3
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?
Reply With Quote
  #23    
Old April 17th, 2014 (4:06 PM).
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
Dream Evil.
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Posts: 7,138
I have played against good players using it. Both with stall and (shock) offense.

Ironically the offensive team i was using i just threw random crap together i didnt even prepare for it. Baton Pass simple cant set up on powerful sweepers. Baton Pass cant switch into anything remotely powerful ranging from things like Greninja to mega pinsir to Garchomp to Charizard-X/Y. :/

Stall is stall and i dont think i need to point out how that went. I didnt use Haze btw lol.

Pair/Bae x Poki <3
Reply With Quote
  #24    
Old April 18th, 2014 (7:06 AM).
Anti's Avatar
Anti Anti is offline
return of the king
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kobe's Reality
Gender:
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 10,708
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?
Reply With Quote
  #25    
Old April 18th, 2014 (11:43 AM).
Nah's Avatar
Nah Nah is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: over there
Age: 23
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,867
I don't think that Baton Pass needs a ban that bad. It's not like BP teams are really common.
My Breeding Shop (open) | PC's Intro to Competitive Battling

The Round Table: PCNation, Devil's Advocate
Reply With Quote
Reply Post Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


  All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:25 PM.


Contact Us Archive Privacy Statement Terms of Service Top