Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates

Notices
For all updates, view the main page.

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more in-depth topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.



Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #76    
Old November 14th, 2012 (07:31 PM).
FreakyLocz14's Avatar
FreakyLocz14
Conservative Patriot
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Gender: Male
Nature: Jolly
Quote originally posted by Khawill:
Please do enlighten me to the racist remarks in a PM.

I know that is incorrect because it directly violates the 5th, 6th, 10th and if taken from their home the 4th amendment. In which case this isn't Obama's fault but combined congress AND the Judicial Branch's fault for or recognizing this (which is impossible because even your party is involved in this).

You also misunderstand the act. It applies to those suspected of terrorisim, which admittedly vague doesn't mean they can arrest anyone they want. Also it doesn't affect you unless you are related, suspected, or direct involved with terrorist acts. The government would waste its time trying to detain its own citizens, that is idiotic, furthermore our CIA is very good at its job, like as good as the FDA is at quarantining a disease before it spreads good.

Edit* @Link, That bill has yet to be signed. And will not reverse the law of the previous bill, rather change it so that it gives a trial by the military, (a very high federal trial)
How you say that it only applies to those who are suspected of terrorism, yet the government is not required to give suspects their day in court to present the evidence that they have of their alleged terrorist acticity? That's where the danger lies.

Also, the Patriot Act, which allows the government to spy on us without a warrant, is another example of government tyranny.
Reply With Quote
  #77    
Old November 14th, 2012 (07:45 PM). Edited November 14th, 2012 by Khawill.
Khawill's Avatar
Khawill
Swaggins
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: The Cave of Hymns
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Nature: Brave
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Direct quote of amendment 5, apperantly they do have the right to do this (by the way if you can't read it "except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;" is the part I highlighted)

The patriot act again is not made to see what you talk about with your friends. They don't even monitor you for illegal activities, they monitor people for terrorist activities. The whole "the government is watching me" paranoia is rather dim. What purpose do they have to wire tap your house, or waste money watching you sleep? Do you store bombs, guns, or yell death to America? If you are not suspicious, you are not guilty unless proven.

Additionally even if you were caught, say selling drugs over the phone and they heard you, and brought you to court. Unless your lawyer is an idiot, then they don't have anything on you. They can not get a warrant because they are Federal agents, they can't use the phone call in question (which would actually be void as evidence and ignored, or risk ending the trial) and they can't search your house without infringing upon the Fourth Ammendment.

Tl: Dr it is a waste of effort for the government to monitor those who are not legitimately suspected to be terrorists, thus even though they can spy on you, they won't.
__________________
College Bound, Mentally Sound.

Frio & Elise || Jayce & Jayce 2
Reply With Quote
  #78    
Old November 14th, 2012 (08:07 PM). Edited November 14th, 2012 by TRIFORCE89.
TRIFORCE89's Avatar
TRIFORCE89
Guide of Darkness
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Temple of Light
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Quote originally posted by Khawill:
your precious Romney wants to run this country like a business (dumbest idea ever by the way)
What's wrong with government being managed in an efficient, effective, and responsible manner? What's wrong with having balanced budgets? I don't think that should necessarily be a right- or left-wing thing. It should just be a common sense thing. And in recent memory, the right is more talk than walk and the "left" (loosely. The Democrats are still centre-right) has done a better job at being a responsible government.

That's not to say that all government is bad or that all businesses are good. Business go bankrupt all the time. Government programs are important. The idea is just about ensuring best managerial and administrative practices are followed. When you have money, you can invest in social programs and other things for the public good.

Which is also not to say that when you have debt or a deficit you should just stop spending outright. Businesses spend through debt to develop and offer some product or service that people will buy, so that they can make more money. For government, stuff like investing in science and technology achieves that same goal (as would social programs that have user fees if that means the government is operating it at a loss).

If during economic turmoil, whatever your spending money on doesn't directly contribute to economic growth then you need to tone it down and trim. And it is really easy to make an argument for almost anything contributing to positive economic growth in the long-run. So, not cutting programs, but making them work better for the money. Maybe you don't need five people doing the same thing. Maybe you can have people do the work of two positions. Bring in an auditor and see what isn't working properly. Stuff like that. It's not evil.

Quote originally posted by Khawill:
Edit* @Link, That bill has yet to be signed. And will not reverse the law of the previous bill, rather change it so that it gives a trial by the military, (a very high federal trial)
Oh, okay. (And... did you call me Link? XD)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79    
Old November 14th, 2012 (10:56 PM).
FreakyLocz14's Avatar
FreakyLocz14
Conservative Patriot
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Gender: Male
Nature: Jolly
Quote originally posted by Khawill:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Direct quote of amendment 5, apperantly they do have the right to do this (by the way if you can't read it "except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;" is the part I highlighted)

The patriot act again is not made to see what you talk about with your friends. They don't even monitor you for illegal activities, they monitor people for terrorist activities. The whole "the government is watching me" paranoia is rather dim. What purpose do they have to wire tap your house, or waste money watching you sleep? Do you store bombs, guns, or yell death to America? If you are not suspicious, you are not guilty unless proven.

Additionally even if you were caught, say selling drugs over the phone and they heard you, and brought you to court. Unless your lawyer is an idiot, then they don't have anything on you. They can not get a warrant because they are Federal agents, they can't use the phone call in question (which would actually be void as evidence and ignored, or risk ending the trial) and they can't search your house without infringing upon the Fourth Ammendment.

Tl: Dr it is a waste of effort for the government to monitor those who are not legitimately suspected to be terrorists, thus even though they can spy on you, they won't.
The section that you highlighted establishes a separate court system for members of the military. Civilians are not constitutionally under the jurisdiction of military courts.

You also seem to be misunderstanding the rules of criminal procedure. Evidence is excluded because it was obtained illegally. The Patriot Act makes it legal to spy on citizens without a warrant, meaning that all of that evidence is admissible in court, unless the judge has the cajones to rule that the Patriot Act itself is unconstitutional.

Even if you believe that the ends justify the means with these laws, you cannot honestly say that they do not take away our freedoms. Our Founding Fathers told us that we should never sacrifice liberty for security, because we'll just end up losing both. Indeed, the biggest domestic terrorists work on Capitol Hill.
Reply With Quote
  #80    
Old November 14th, 2012 (11:22 PM). Edited November 14th, 2012 by Mr. X.
Mr. X's Avatar
Mr. X
For Money
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Your ignoring one thing though, the greater majority of American's don't care.

The fact that these laws are still valid is proof enough that the majority of Americans support them.

And even then, if these laws are 'supposedly' against the basics of the Constitution then it is the peoples responsibility to rise up and overthrow the corrupt Government that has put them in place.

Guess what, The People have not done this. And they never will, because The People no longer feel obligated to the ideals of a time long since past.

Edit - The NDAA had those provisions in place at the behest of Republicans. They knew that this bill was something that the Democrats and Obama would have no choice but to pass, so a group of Republicans decided to make a powergrab to increase the reach of the Government.
__________________
Follower of Carlinism since 2008.

Come play Runescape
Reply With Quote
  #81    
Old November 14th, 2012 (11:26 PM).
FreakyLocz14's Avatar
FreakyLocz14
Conservative Patriot
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Gender: Male
Nature: Jolly
Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
Your ignoring one thing though, the greater majority of American's don't care.

The fact that these laws are still valid is proof enough that the majority of Americans support them.

And even then, if these laws are 'supposedly' against the basics of the Constitution then it is the peoples responsibility to rise up and overthrow the corrupt Government that has put them in place.

Guess what, The People have not done this. And they never will, because The People no longer feel obligated to the ideals of a time long since past.

Edit - The NDAA had those provisions in place at the behest of Republicans. They knew that this bill was something that the Democrats and Obama would have no choice but to pass, so the Republicans decided to make a powergrab to increase the reach of the Government.
The politicians know how to placate the sheeple masses. They give them all kinds of nice gifts, all while bankrupting. The corporate media also largely hides the truth from the people, and even vilifies those who attempt to expose it.

Edit - Senator Carl Levin is a Republican? That's is news to me! Are you really under the delusion that the Democrat Party isn't just as guilty as the GOP in destroying the Constitution, or that either of the two major parties is the good guy? -__-
Reply With Quote
  #82    
Old November 14th, 2012 (11:43 PM).
Mr. X's Avatar
Mr. X
For Money
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Quote originally posted by FreakyLocz14:
The politicians know how to placate the sheeple masses. They give them all kinds of nice gifts, all while bankrupting. The corporate media also largely hides the truth from the people, and even vilifies those who attempt to expose it.

Edit - Senator Carl Levin is a Republican? That's is news to me! Are you really under the delusion that the Democrat Party isn't just as guilty as the GOP in destroying the Constitution, or that either of the two major parties is the good guy?
John McCain is though, and don't forget that the original NDAA was passed in the Republican controlled House by a very large majority. (322-96) And that Obama, originally, planned to Veto the bill before realizing that this was a case of ****ed if you do, screwed if you don't. And again, when the bill was in the Senate, a amendment was passed (99-1) that weakened the detention provisions, with the only vote against being from a Republican.

And the PATRIOT act was the brainchild of a Republican.

While their is Democrat involvement in both of these, the majority of these bills were made by Republicans.

Both sides have done things to weaken the Constitution, however in these cases the Republicans have done much much more harm.
__________________
Follower of Carlinism since 2008.

Come play Runescape
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 11:55 AM.