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  #276    
Old June 30th, 2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sindrie View Post
You can get 2 sludge bomb TM's in Soul Silver?
You probably already found one in route 43, as for the other one, well, it is pretty late in the game.....Which is in the Battle Frontier if I'm not mistaken where you can trade it for BPs. Still, sorry for forgetting that you might be having trouble deciding who to give that one sludge bomb to early in the game....Well, still, you can give to either Ariados or Venomoth early in the game, and give the other one end game. It is fine if you don't give Ariados Sludge Bomb, actually. I myself take Mawile which only have a base stats of 380, and still use it even though its moveset isn't really that good. It might help if you can give me what Tms do you own right now....
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  #277    
Old June 30th, 2013, 04:42 PM
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Early game, Ariados/Spinarak is really underwhelming.. but mid-game is really when he shines the most. Most of the time, you'd rely on Night Shade more than any of his other moves to deal significant damage -- and you'd have to keep him as your highest level just to make Night Shade quite effective during that period.

But one thing you're probably neglecting/forgetting is his Egg moves. He could acquire Poison Jab as early as level 37 from Beedrill and Signal Beam from Venomoth(37)/Volbeat(25). Either way, those moves will make your Spinarak's start better and more reliable compared to how he would be from early-game. However, this requires patience and time as you'd have to wait until your other bugs are good enough (and of course, reach the daycare center). For me, that wouldn't be much of a problem... since keeping a party of 2-4 other bugs is ideal until mid-game for most of the time. But different trainers have different styles, so idk how that'd work for you >_<

Another option is to relearn Bug Bite. However, this is pretty late already, as the move relearner is found at Pastoria (D/P/Pt). But it's a much better choice than say, Signal Beam.

Toxic isn't bad either, and definitely won't be wasted. The move doesn't rely on either SpA or Atk anyway (making his low stats irrelevant), and you can always make sure that he'd be dealing significant damage against any opponent this way (well.. 'cept for Poison 'n Steel types, of course). Toxic-Protect is a pretty popular combo, although commonly used. But with his puny speed and overall stats, compared to mostly any other bugs, it will definitely benefit him the most.

That said, you'll definitely need investment to really get Ariados start good. But that wouldn't be too long, because as mentioned, you could do that as early as mid-game starts.

IMO, an ideal moveset i'd go with would be:
Spoiler:
Bug bite
Poison Jab
Toxic
Protect


That may be the most he can do with his stats. Dig wouldn't be bad either, since it keeps the battles longer (hence giving more time for Toxic to sink in), it could also (hopefully) help against some fire types.... with Quick Claw, that is.

Nonetheless, gotta admire your decision for a bug monotype challenge. Spread the love for bugs! *cough*getVespiquen*cough*
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Last edited by molivious; June 30th, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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  #278    
Old June 30th, 2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JesterLegacy View Post
You probably already found one in route 43, as for the other one, well, it is pretty late in the game.....Which is in the Battle Frontier if I'm not mistaken where you can trade it for BPs. Still, sorry for forgetting that you might be having trouble deciding who to give that one sludge bomb to early in the game....Well, still, you can give to either Ariados or Venomoth early in the game, and give the other one end game. It is fine if you don't give Ariados Sludge Bomb, actually. I myself take Mawile which only have a base stats of 380, and still use it even though its moveset isn't really that good. It might help if you can give me what Tms do you own right now....
I just started out actually so literally 0 TMs, I'm just trying to plan ahead. But I got a spinarak now and I'm going to try running it through with my team to the elite four and see how useful he can be. Also about the battle frontier: I have actually never used it before lol I have beat silver/SS like 10 times but never used it.
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  #279    
Old June 30th, 2013, 04:58 PM
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I just started out actually so literally 0 TMs, I'm just trying to plan ahead. But I got a spinarak now and I'm going to try running it through with my team to the elite four and see how useful he can be. Also about the battle frontier: I have actually never used it before lol I have beat silver/SS like 10 times but never used it.
Well, one of the ways that molivious suggested is good, though I'm not into breeding

Another faster way for Ariados to learn its moves earlier is to halt its evolution from Spinarak, until Spinarak learns pin missile at level 36 and psychic at 40 (Aridos learns those moves at level 41 and 46) But that may be a bit hard as Spinarak's stats are definitely lower than Ariados'.
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  #280    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by molivious View Post
Early game, Ariados/Spinarak is really underwhelming.. but mid-game is really when he shines the most. Most of the time, you'd rely on Night Shade more than any of his other moves to deal significant damage -- and you'd have to keep him as your highest level just to make Night Shade quite effective during that period.

But one thing you're probably neglecting/forgetting is his Egg moves. He could acquire Poison Jab as early as level 37 from Beedrill and Signal Beam from Venomoth(37)/Volbeat(25). Either way, those moves will make your Spinarak's start better and more reliable compared to how he would be from early-game. However, this requires patience and time as you'd have to wait until your other bugs are good enough (and of course, reach the daycare center). For me, that wouldn't be much of a problem... since keeping a party of 2-4 other bugs is ideal until mid-game for most of the time. But different trainers have different styles, so idk how that'd work for you >_<

Another option is to relearn Bug Bite. However, this is pretty late already, as the move relearner is found at Pastoria (D/P/Pt). But it's a much better choice than say, Signal Beam.

Toxic isn't bad either, and definitely won't be wasted. The move doesn't rely on either SpA or Atk anyway, and you can always make sure that he'd be dealing significant damage against any opponent this way. Toxic-Protect is a pretty popular combo too, although commonly used. With his puny speed, it will benefit him the most.

That said, you'll definitely need investment to really get Ariados start good. But that wouldn't be too long, because as mentioned, you could do that as early as mid-game starts.

IMO, an ideal moveset i'd go with would be:
Spoiler:
Bug bite
Poison Jab
Toxic
Protect

I think that's the most he can do with his stats. You could get Sonic Boom from Yanma, but those guys couldn't be found anywhere... Dig wouldn't be bad either, since it keeps the battles longer (hence giving more time for Toxic to sink in), it could also (hopefully) help against some fire types.... with Quick Claw, that is.


Gotta admire your bug monotype challenge. Spread the love for bugs!
Thats not a bad build there but I think I will swap out toxic for psychic for more type coverage, though I never breed so egg moves are kinda out but I guess giving him bug bite/signal beam from a tutor might make him pretty good.
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  #281    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:07 PM
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Thats not a bad build there but I think I will swap out toxic for psychic for more type coverage, though I never breed so egg moves are kinda out but I guess giving him bug bite/signal beam from a tutor might make him pretty good.
you might as well swap Protect. Protect is pretty useless if you aren't "waiting" for any move to take into effect. Toxic, on the other hand, deals damage continuously even if, say, when Ariados faints. At least you could assure that at least one of his attacks makes a significant contribution everytime he's sent out.

Toxic makes him a threat even against dragons. Protect wouldn't.
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  #282    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:10 PM
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you might as well swap Protect. Protect is pretty useless if you aren't "waiting" for any move to take into effect. Toxic, on the other hand, deals damage continuously even if, say, when Ariados faints. At least you could assure that at least one of his attacks makes a significant contribution everytime he's sent out.

Toxic makes him a threat even against dragons. Protect wouldn't.
My thinking is I will put Toxic on Beedrill simply because he has like 2 times the speed so he will get first turn on most trainer's pokemon.
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  #283    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:11 PM
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Thats not a bad build there but I think I will swap out toxic for psychic for more type coverage, though I never breed so egg moves are kinda out but I guess giving him bug bite/signal beam from a tutor might make him pretty good.
If I got it right, bug bite and signal beam's tutors are at the frontier front which means you'll need BP in order to learn them, isn't that a bit late in the game, though?
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  #284    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:15 PM
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If I got it right, bug bite and signal beam's tutors are at the frontier front which means you'll need BP in order to learn them, isn't that a bit late in the game, though?
crap you're right :/ lol seems like the only alright move he could get by the 8th gym is dig and night shade.
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  #285    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JesterLegacy View Post
If I got it right, bug bite and signal beam's tutors are at the frontier front which means you'll need BP in order to learn them, isn't that a bit late in the game, though?
move tutors have bug bite? I'm not sure about Signal beam either.

All i know is, bug bite = move relearner (
Signal Beam = breeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindrie View Post
My thinking is I will put Toxic on Beedrill simply because he has like 2 times the speed so he will get first turn on most trainer's pokemon.
I'd highly advise against it. First of all, Beedrill's stats aren't that good either (lower than Ariados's, even). He's also much squishier, for that matter. You will want to take advantage of his speed for offensive attacks. Toxic is an attack that requires more survivability, Beedrill has none of that. Without his speed, he would be crappier than Ariados >_<. You'll want to use his speed to deal some instant-BAM! damage for the team.

I used to teach Brick break to beedrill (not sure if it's was TM on following GENs) but this solves a lot of issues -- such as fighting against Rock and Ice types without a steel-bug pokemon (which are really tough situations for most bugs -- being weak against Rock AND Ice [for bug/flying hybrids]).
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Last edited by molivious; June 30th, 2013 at 05:23 PM.
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  #286    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:21 PM
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crap you're right :/ lol seems like the only alright move he could get by the 8th gym is dig and night shade.
Well, not necessarily if you use Spinarak until it gets to level 40, or even better, 43, as your Ariados will have Psychic as well as Poison Jab. It'd be great if toxic is available earlier, though. Shame that it is (again) at the Battle Frontier..... Well, Dig isn't that bad, either. I presume you'll already have the Dig TM before the 8th gym (Maybe, as I don't really remember where to get it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by molivious View Post
move tutors have bug bite? I'm not sure about Signal beam either.

All i know is, bug bite = move relearner (
Signal Beam = breeding
Well, they are available in the move tutors, and oh yeah, I didn't even notice about the move re-learner as Ariados can learn bug bite from him.....
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  #287    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:24 PM
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move tutors have bug bite? I'm not sure about Signal beam either.

All i know is, bug bite = move relearner
Signal Beam = breeding


I'd highly advise against it. First of all, Beedrill's stats aren't that good either (lower than Ariados's, even). He's also much squishier, for that matter. You will want to take advantage of his speed for offensive attacks. Toxic is an attack that requires more survivability, Beedrill has none of that. Without his speed, he would be crappier than Ariados >_<.

I used to teach Brick break to beedrill (not sure if it's was TM on following GENs) but this solves a lot of issues -- such as fighting against Rock and Ice types without a steel-bug pokemon (really tough situation). It also gives him an edge against Dark Pokemon.
oops my bad I completely mixed up toxic with toxic spikes lol... with beedrill you can throw down toxic spike get hit down to 30% activate swarm (hopefully) then use x scissor for a lot of damage.
Also in soul silver both bug bite and signal beam are taught by move tutors.
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  #288    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:25 PM
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oops my bad I completely mixed up toxic with toxic spikes lol... with beedrill you can throw down toxic spike get hit down to 30% activate swarm (hopefully) then use x scissor for a lot of damage.
Also in soul silver both bug bite and signal beam are taught by move tutors.
As for Bug Bite, Ariados can also learn it from the move re-learner as Bug Bite is one of its starting moves...Didn't notice that earlier.
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  #289    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:30 PM
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Yea you can get Dig before the 3rd gym is beaten in SS I might try that but I might grab pinsir so i'm unsure who i will throw it on. I'm unsure if I will pick up heracross/scyther/pinsir do to them being so mainstream and arguably OP (heracross >.>) so far I plan on using ledyba,spinarak,Butterfree,Beedrill. I have actually beat the game before using only scyther/heracross/pinsir so I don't know if I want to use them again they make the game so easy.
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  #290    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:38 PM
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Yea you can get Dig before the 3rd gym is beaten in SS I might try that but I might grab pinsir so i'm unsure who i will throw it on. I'm unsure if I will pick up heracross/scyther/pinsir do to them being so mainstream and arguably OP (heracross >.>) so far I plan on using ledyba,spinarak,Butterfree,Beedrill. I have actually beat the game before using only scyther/heracross/pinsir so I don't know if I want to use them again they make the game so easy.
Well, if you think that they'll make the game too easy, then you can just avoid using them. But still, keeping one of them as safety measures won't hurt, though.....Again, if you want challenge, then don't include them in your party if you don't want to.
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  #291    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:39 PM
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oops my bad I completely mixed up toxic with toxic spikes lol... with beedrill you can throw down toxic spike get hit down to 30% activate swarm (hopefully) then use x scissor for a lot of damage.
Also in soul silver both bug bite and signal beam are taught by move tutors.
That's a very risky tactic.

1) You're only throwing one toxic spike per attack.. dealing minimal poison damage per enemy. Poison may be quite useful... but only if it's used with the right combination (of pokemon, and moves). You'd find Spore/Stun Spore or the likes to be much more effective against team battles, at least for most of the story.

Why? Since bugs are kinda squishy in the first place, you couldn't rely on Poisoning every other opposing opponent -- always assume that they can kill you as soon as you take yours out. If you paralyzed/put them to sleep, you probably won't even get a single team member dead. I'd imagine the worst if you went against a crobat -- who can't be poisoned, is fast against most bugs, and is a flying type.

I did mention using Toxic on Ariados, which may make you think that's quite ironic to what i'm saying... But toxic can be used on selected opponents, and effectively. Once you throw out Toxic Spikes, you have no control of status infliction anymore -- which i think bugs are best with. Especially with the likes of Scyther who'd make use of Sleep/Paralyze to build up some damage from Swords Dance.

2) With one slot down, you only have 3 more for other attacks. Let's say you have Twinneedle, Poison Jab, Toxic Spikes and X scissor. How would Beedrill fare against bulky Psychic types (imagine natu, with your attacks being not very effective and outspeeding you)? How would the rest of your team fare against rock types? Against Dragon/Flying types (which, once again, aren't affected by spikes)?

While the idea is pretty nice. Bugs struggle a lot against most other typings, you'd have to make your moveset more versatile and reliable than that. Toxic spikes isn't just a move for Beedrill >_< Forretress, maybe... but not beedrill. Throw that X scissor immediately, but don't allow the opponent to land a free hit. Beedrill might be the last pokemon you'd have to outspeed the enemy. (altho you might have scyther, or yanma, or smth... which have WORSE movesets than beedrill -- in terms of versatility/type coverage)
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Last edited by molivious; June 30th, 2013 at 05:46 PM.
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  #292    
Old June 30th, 2013, 05:50 PM
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That's a very risky tactic.

1) You're only throwing one toxic spike per attack.. dealing minimal poison damage per enemy. Poison may be quite useful... but only if it's used by the right combination. You'd find Spore/Stun Spore or the likes to be much more effective against team battles. At least for most of the story.

Why? Since bugs are kinda squishy in the first place, you couldn't rely on Poisoning every other opposing opponent -- they can kill you as soon as you take yours out. If you paralyzed/put them to sleep, you probably won't even get a single team member dead. I'd imagine the worst if you went against a crobat -- who can't be poisoned, is fast against most bugs, and is a flying type.

I did mention using Toxic on Ariados, which may make you think that's quite ironic to what i'm saying... But toxic can be used on selected opponents, and effectively. Once you throw out Toxic Spikes, you have no control of status infliction anymore -- which i think bugs are best with. Especially with the likes of Scyther who'd make use of Sleep/Paralyze to build up some damage from Swords Dance.

2) With one slot down, you only have 3 more for other attacks. Let's say you have Twinneedle, Poison Jab, Toxic Spikes and X scissor. How would Beedrill fare against bulky Psychic types (imagine natu, with your attacks being not very effective and outspeeding you)? How would the rest of your team fare against rock types? Against Dragon/Flying types (which, once again, aren't affected by spikes)?

While the idea is pretty nice. Bugs struggle a lot against most other typings, you'd have to make your moveset more versatile and reliable than that. Toxic spikes isn't just a move for Beedrill >_< Forretress, maybe... but not beedrill. Throw that X scissor immediately, but don't allow the opponent to land a free hit. Beedrill might be the last pokemon you'd have to outspeed the enemy. (altho you might have scyther, or yanma, or smth... which have WORSE movesets than beedrill -- in terms of versatility/type coverage)
For sleep powder/stun I will leave that to butterfree 91% sleep powder is pretty lulzy you can sleep lock the entire game XD also I think you underestimate beedrill and swarm he can sweep entire teams with swarm and x-scissor. I'm not much of a min-maxer or a "hard-core" player I just use what pokemon I like.

"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites" - Elite Four Karen

but yeah back to ariados I think he will be pretty hard to use for most of the game but I guess with a combo of dig/psychic/pin Missile you can cover a lot of types.

EDIT: also one thing we forgot about spinarak is his access to insomnia that is very useful against psychics and ghosts.

Last edited by Sindrie; June 30th, 2013 at 06:00 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #293    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:01 PM
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For sleep powder/stun I will leave that to butterfree 91% sleep powered is pretty lulzy you can sleep lock the entire game XD also I think you underestimate beedrill and swarm he can sweep entire teams with swarm and x-scissor. I'm not much of a min-maxer or a "hard-core" player I just use what pokemon I like.
It's quite the opposite. I've used beedrill a lot. All my monotype runs always involved him (well now he just got replaced by vespiquen), so i do know his limits.

Sorry if i sounded pushy, though. I just imagined that Beedrill is your most offensive pokemon in your current team, and it would be wisest to keep him best as that -- an offensive pokemon. Yes, Swarm and X-scissor is the awesome way to go... but you most likely would be dead before that swarm kicks in if you allow an opponent to hit you. He's really squishy, that's what i'm trying to point at. Nonetheless, these are just advices... no need to follow them. You'd enjoy it more if you discovered better movesets on your own, anyway. Happy buzzing! kekeke

Quote:
but yeah back to ariados I think he will be pretty hard to use for most of the game but I guess with a combo of dig/psychic/pin Missile you can cover a lot of types.
It will actually be harder to use Ledian XD He's so weak that you'd only take him out to revive others. Try not to rely on Pin Missile, though. With only effectiveness against psychic, grass and dark.. you're better off using another bug pokemon with better speed/bug moves (Psychic types will mostly outspeed Ariados, and him being a bug/Poison type, that means OHKO >_<).

edit: As for butterfree, using Toxic Spikes with beedrill, you cannot sleep/para lock them when they're already poisoned, could you? That was my very point in the previous post.
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  #294    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:09 PM
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It's quite the opposite. I've used beedrill a lot. All my monotype runs always involved him (well now he just got replaced by vespiquen), so i do know his limits.

Sorry if i sounded pushy, though. I just imagined that Beedrill is your most offensive pokemon in your current team, and it would be wisest to keep him best as that -- an offensive pokemon. Yes, Swarm and X-scissor is the awesome way to go... but you most likely would be dead before that swarm kicks in if you allow an opponent to hit you. He's really squishy, that's what i'm trying to point at. Nonetheless, these are just advices... no need to follow them. You'd enjoy it more if you discovered better movesets on your own, anyway. Happy buzzing! kekeke

It will actually be harder to use Ledian XD He's so weak that you'd only take him out to revive others. Try not to rely on Pin Missile, though. With only effectiveness against psychic, grass and dark.. you're better off using another bug pokemon with better speed/bug moves (Psychic types will mostly outspeed Ariados, and him being a bug/Poison type, that means OHKO >_<).

edit: As for butterfree, using Toxic Spikes with beedrill, you cannot sleep/para lock them when they're already poisoned, could you? That was my very point in the previous post.
I plan on picking up either pinsir or scyther as my heavy hitter. Ledian is pretty bad yeah lol XD but you can give him thunder and ice punch so he can cover more than ariados.
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  #295    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:14 PM
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I plan on picking up either pinsir or scyther as my heavy hitter. Ledian is pretty bad yeah lol XD but you can give him thunder and ice punch so he can cover more than ariados.
Ice punch as well as Thunder punch are physical attacks, while Ledian's base attack power is really low....Hence, I don't think Ledian should be included as a physical hitter. Which makes Ledian is better as a special attacker or a support/ baton passer in my opinion. But still, it depends on your preference.
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Do you think that a Pokemon needs to be strong? Nah, if I like it, then that's it, I'll take it.
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  #296    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sindrie View Post
I plan on picking up either pinsir or scyther as my heavy hitter. Ledian is pretty bad yeah lol XD but you can give him thunder and ice punch so he can cover more than ariados.
Well that'd be fun. How about Forretress? He's fun too! (and at least not that OP to make your game too easy. lol)

There's also Paras.. a bug/Grass hybrid, although suffers the same problem as Ariados. Lastly, Yanma? I think you'd love him
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  #297    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JesterLegacy View Post
Ice punch as well as Thunder punch are physical attacks, while Ledian's base attack power is really low....Hence, I don't think Ledian should be included as a physical hitter. Which makes Ledian is better as a special attacker or a support/ baton passer in my opinion. But still, it depends on your preference.
WOW thanks for pointing that out for some reason I was thinking he had like 85 attack... he has 35 thats just pathetic lol yeah I might have to rethink using him now XD

Never used Forretress but I may have to change that soon but I have used yanma and love him :3. I have used paras but his evolution is creepy! hes a zombie! lol

kinda related question: is scizor OP earlyish game? like around the 3'rd gym b/c I could do some trading with a friend and get him by the 3rd gym do you think he would blow up the game? I like using strong pokemon and all don't get me wrong :D but I try to avoid "press A to win pokemon" b/c of my attention span of a 3rd grader I will get bored before I beat the game XD
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Last edited by Sindrie; June 30th, 2013 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #298    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Sindrie View Post
WOW thanks for pointing that out for some reason I was thinking he had like 85 attack... he has 35 thats just pathetic lol yeah I might have to rethink using him now XD

Never used Forretress but I may have to change that soon but I have used yanma and love him :3. I have used paras but his evolution is creepy! hes a zombie! lol

kinda related question: is scizor OP earlyish game? like around the 3'rd gym b/c I could do some trading with a friend and get him by the 3rd gym do you think he would blow up the game? I like using strong pokemon :D but I try to avoid "press A to win pokemon" b/c of my attention span of a 3rd grader I will get bored before I beat the game XD
Scizor is good, and I don't think it will ruin the game or makes the game too easy. There are still challenges even if you own a Scizor. I mean, the game won't be blown by simply possessing one Scizor

Oh, and if you think the game is too easy to beat, you should totally give the battle frontier a try......
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Do you think that a Pokemon needs to be strong? Nah, if I like it, then that's it, I'll take it.
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  #299    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JesterLegacy View Post
Which makes Ledian is better as a special attacker or a support/ baton passer in my opinion.
Most likely so. With Silver Wind and Agility, the results could be really wonderful.

As for Scizor.. hmm.. he has a moveset similar to Scyther's, and the only difference is the Steel - Flying change. I think that's a big difference though, since bugs' main problems is their squishiness. Scizor has speed, bulk and power, on that matter.. which makes him a really tough powerhouse >_<'a Although i suppose it wouldn't be so gamebreaking as compared to, say, a dragon pokemon.

He'd fare well in any situation, and that's probably the best i could describe him with.

I guess it's entirely up to you. But good luck!
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Squish, squish, squish. Goes the bug under your foot.
Squish, squish, squish. I'm telling you not to look.
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  #300    
Old June 30th, 2013, 06:37 PM
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Sindrie
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Originally Posted by JesterLegacy View Post
Scizor is good, and I don't think it will ruin the game or makes the game too easy. There are still challenges even if you own a Scizor. I mean, the game won't be blown by simply possessing one Scizor
hahaha ok sorry for the kinda dumb question most of my pokemon years is with the 1st gen and grass type at that I've only recently become a fan of the bug type. I think it would be interesting to try scizor out I have never used him but I have heard from people he is OP.. but odds are they just lost to him a lot and don't like him lol.
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