Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > Discussions & Debates

Notices
For all updates, view the main page.

Discussions & Debates The place to go for slightly more in-depth topics. Discussions and debates about the world, current events, ideas, news, and more.



Reply
Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.  
Thread Tools
  #26    
Old December 14th, 2012 (12:02 PM). Edited December 14th, 2012 by Mochi.
Mochi's Avatar
Mochi
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Age: 21
Gender: Female
Nature: Sassy
Quote originally posted by Went:
Give two men a gun and someone might get shot.

Give zero guns to either and chances are nobody is going to get shot.

And again, criminals can get their hands on weapons if they try badly enough -definitely not as many-. But if you sell them in Wal-Mart, you are begging for this to happen.
The problem with that logic is that gun control won't mean guns suddenly stop existing.

Sydian, I agree that it can be possible but it could help with control by some means, I'm not saying throw a pistol in every teacher's desk, but the ones who have a history with controlled weapon use, more stable and reliable mental health analyses, etc.

Livewire, at the post below mine, if you had the option to buy a gun legally or illegally, which would it be? The shooters only choose the easy route as far as the basis for the graph, it doesn't mean illegal gun purchases would hold the same rates if gun control was enforced, they would become more common.

I feel as though turning this thread solely into a gun control debate while inevitable, is highly disrespectful to the eighteen children, eight adults, and all of the victims' families, friends, and classmates.

I'm reading now that of the adults, the principal and school psychologist were shot as well, though I'm not sure if they're of the eight adults who were killed or if they're just injured; does anyone have any confirmation?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27    
Old December 14th, 2012 (12:04 PM).
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Interesting fun fact:




Mass Shootings in America info
Guns & Mass Shooting facts in America

Ought to clear up your misconceptions.
__________________
BSS | D&D | PM | VM
Reply With Quote
  #28    
Old December 14th, 2012 (12:34 PM).
Went's Avatar
Went
Team Magma Grunt
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Madrid
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Send a message via Skype™ to Went
Quote originally posted by AzaleaLightning:
The problem with that logic is that gun control won't mean guns suddenly stop existing.
No, but it will mean it will be muuuuuuch harder to get hold of a gun. And since shooting someone is the easiest and most common way of killing, if you have less guns circulating it will mean less deaths.

According to the United Nations Survey on Crime Trends, in 2002 9369 people were shot dead in the US (300 million people). 97 in Spain that year (50 million people). Kind of a leap. www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #29    
Old December 14th, 2012 (12:44 PM).
TRIFORCE89's Avatar
TRIFORCE89
Guide of Darkness
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Temple of Light
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Do we know what the gun is? I'm finding it hard to believe that this many died so quickly with a handgun instead of something automatic or semi.

I would like see a headline one day that goes "Crazy person offs himself without killing any innocent people first".
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:01 PM).
Klippy
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA, US
Age: 23
Gender: Male
I don't see why a thread on the innocent lives lost needs to be revolving around gun debate. No offense, but make a new thread. This shouldn't be about gun laws. This guy was mentally ill and he would've gotten ahold of a weapon no matter what. If a man is willing to murder schoolchildren, he'll do it and find a way to get the weapons he wants. Across the ocean, a man in China stabbed children and yet we seem to believe that making guns illegal would magically prevent these kinds of tragedies. It's a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

All I can think of is that there are many families that have gifts under their trees that will never be opened on Christmas Day thanks to this monster. It just makes me sick. I can't imagine the pain they are feeling and I wish we could stop politicizing these types of tragedies and polarizing the pain in the media and let these people grieve and cope.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #31    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:02 PM). Edited December 14th, 2012 by Alli.
Alli's Avatar
Alli
you smiled at me
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alabama
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Nature: Timid
This was written by a student during the lockdown...



Not sure if that child is still alive, but it breaks my heart that he says "sorry for not being a good son." If he was one of the ones that died, if his mother read this letter then just...she would never have the chance to tell him he wasn't a bad son and...I have to go cry again. Just...my God.

Hopefully this isn't something just circulating that's not related to today's events and this isn't fake or something. If that makes sense...trying to word this better than I did before lol. :( But it would be kinda of rude to be posting pictures of notes like these and saying it's about this and it not even be related to it.
__________________

paired with klippy
bae is abnegation
Reply With Quote
  #32    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:04 PM).
Senusret's Avatar
Senusret
It's better than living insane… right?
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Between the whale and wasp
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Send a message via Skype™ to Senusret
Since when have criminals followed laws?

My answer to gun control. If a crazy person wants to kill someone, what makes you think murderers (read: criminals) are going to legally obtain a gun if it's too complex to obtain? They plan on breaking the law, and most of them kill themselves after shooting up the place. What makes you think that they care?
__________________
The game of life is hard to play
I’m gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I’ll someday lay
So this is all I have to say

The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn’t hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger, watch it grin
Reply With Quote
  #33    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:09 PM).
TRIFORCE89's Avatar
TRIFORCE89
Guide of Darkness
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Temple of Light
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Quote originally posted by Sydian:
This was written by a student during the lockdown...



Not sure if that child is still alive, but it breaks my heart that he says "sorry for not being a good son." If he was one of the ones that died, if his mother read this letter then just...she would never have the chance to tell him he wasn't a bad son and...I have to go cry again. Just...my God.

Hopefully this is real. This is just something I saw circulating, so...
Dunno about you. But I'm hoping that isn't real :\
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #34    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:12 PM).
Alli's Avatar
Alli
you smiled at me
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alabama
Age: 22
Gender: Female
Nature: Timid
Well, when I said "hopefully this is real" I meant that I was hoping someone wasn't just circulating this and it wasn't written about today's events. Sorry about that, lol. Gotta word things better. I don't want that to be real, but I don't want people circulating fake things about today's events. That's what I meant.
__________________

paired with klippy
bae is abnegation
Reply With Quote
  #35    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:13 PM).
CarcharOdin's Avatar
CarcharOdin
Master of The Universe
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Monterey, California, USA
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Naughty
> Mass shooting occurs
> People debate gun control
> Another mass shooting occurs regardless of increased/decreased measures
> People debate MORE gun control
> Repeat steps 1 - 4

Timeless formula.
__________________
"It's not genocide if no one likes them." - CarcharOdin

My Proposed PokeCommunity Dungeons & Dragons game. Leave a comment if interested.
Reply With Quote
  #36    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:14 PM).
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Quote originally posted by TRIFORCE89:
Do we know what the gun is? I'm finding it hard to believe that this many died so quickly with a handgun instead of something automatic or semi.

I would like see a headline one day that goes "Crazy person offs himself without killing any innocent people first".
From what I understand, he used some kind of Semi-Automatic handgun, a .9 Millimeter or a Glock with extended magazines.

Also, now we sit at 20 dead children, six dead adults, and the shooter.

Quote originally posted by AlexTheRose:
Since when have criminals followed laws?

My answer to gun control. If a crazy person wants to kill someone, what makes you think murderers (read: criminals) are going to legally obtain a gun if it's too complex to obtain? They plan on breaking the law, and most of them kill themselves after shooting up the place. What makes you think that they care?

Did you miss the point that this shooting, along with some of the recent ones, didn't involve criminals, but average people? This guy was just some 24 year old. So was the guy behinf the Aurora shooting, and so was Jared Loughner, the shooter in the Gabby Giffords Arizona shooting last year. It's far easier to walk into any old Walmart and buy one than to go about getting one illegally.

Not really an argument either.
__________________
BSS | D&D | PM | VM
Reply With Quote
  #37    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:19 PM).
Shiny Celebi
Donator Tier 3
Community Supporter Tier 3
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Internet
Quote originally posted by Sydian:
This was written by a student during the lockdown...



Not sure if that child is still alive, but it breaks my heart that he says "sorry for not being a good son." If he was one of the ones that died, if his mother read this letter then just...she would never have the chance to tell him he wasn't a bad son and...I have to go cry again. Just...my God.

Hopefully this isn't something just circulating that's not related to today's events and this isn't fake or something. If that makes sense...trying to word this better than I did before lol. :( But it would be kinda of rude to be posting pictures of notes like these and saying it's about this and it not even be related to it.
Wow that made me cry in real life. I dont want it to be real but I also hope that someone didnt just make it up and start circulating that. This is just really depressing. Its hard for me to see that 26 people got killed.
__________________
BMGf Ever Grande City
Reply With Quote
  #38    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:37 PM).
Ryoutarou
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
That letter is absolutely heartbreaking, I hope it isn't a genuine letter...and it's sad that people can be this insensitive over a shooting. I've already seem some absolutely disgraceful images out there making light of the entire situation.

Quote originally posted by Went:
No, but it will mean it will be muuuuuuch harder to get hold of a gun. And since shooting someone is the easiest and most common way of killing, if you have less guns circulating it will mean less deaths.
Not quite so. Mexico, a country with roughly twice the population of Spain, has a greater gun violence rate than America. Keep in mind that Mexico has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world with some of the harshest penalties, yet it ranks eighth in countries with gun violence. The only way to legally purchase a gun in Mexico is from the government and an individual may only carry a gun within their own home unless that person can prove their life is in imminent danger. Otherwise, only city, state, and federal employees are permitted to carry guns in public.
Reply With Quote
  #39    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:42 PM).
Went's Avatar
Went
Team Magma Grunt
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Madrid
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Send a message via Skype™ to Went
Quote originally posted by Klippy:
I don't see why a thread on the innocent lives lost needs to be revolving around gun debate. No offense, but make a new thread. This shouldn't be about gun laws. This guy was mentally ill and he would've gotten ahold of a weapon no matter what. If a man is willing to murder schoolchildren, he'll do it and find a way to get the weapons he wants. Across the ocean, a man in China stabbed children and yet we seem to believe that making guns illegal would magically prevent these kinds of tragedies. It's a mental health issue, not a gun issue.
First of all, my respect and condolences to the families of the dead. This should not have happened, and I do hope this never happens again, but, if we don't do anything about to prevent stuff like this from happening, it will happen again. Going to quote someone from twitter: "Now's not the time for gun control talk. We must mourn until this happens again, then mourn more, in cycles forever, never changing anything".

Interestingly, and thankfully, none of the stabbed children died, because stabbing someone to death is much dirtier, complex and slower than shoting someone, and it forces you to fight against your victim. No "pulling a trigger from a distance", you need to get close and make sure the wounds are not only superficial. I'd rather not have any of them, but, if I really must choose, I'd rather go for the second option.

And, if the "if someone wants to shoot someone they'll find a gun somehow" argument is true, then the ridiculous overproportion of gunshot attacks in the US in comparison to Canada and every single other European country means that either a) criminals outside don't seem to want to use guns much, b) there are less criminals (except most of them have similar or even higher crime rates than the US, so numbers don't match), or c) making getting guns much harder than just walking into your local Wal-Mart DOES make getting guns harder. Average crazy teenagers might not have enough money or knowledge to get into the black market and buy a gun without being caught but they are certainly capable of going to the store next home to do so for a couple hundred bucks.

Quote originally posted by Ryoutarou:
That letter is absolutely heartbreaking, I hope it isn't a genuine letter...and it's sad that people can be this insensitive over a shooting. I've already seem some absolutely disgraceful images out there making light of the entire situation.

Not quite so. Mexico, a country with roughly twice the population of Spain, has a greater gun violence rate than America. Keep in mind that Mexico has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the world with some of the harshest penalties, yet it ranks eighth in countries with gun violence. The only way to legally purchase a gun in Mexico is from the government and an individual may only carry a gun within their own home unless that person can prove their life is in imminent danger. Otherwise, only city, state, and federal employees are permitted to carry guns in public.
Of course, if you are going to talk about one of the countries with the largest crime rates in the world, due to an on-going semi-civil war against drug cartels threatening with turning the country into a failed state- and compare it to Europe or the US, well, I think there are some flaws in your comparison. Having strict gun laws is pointless if the Government has serious issues to apply any laws whatsoever in large zones of the country.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #40    
Old December 14th, 2012 (01:57 PM). Edited December 14th, 2012 by Senusret.
Senusret's Avatar
Senusret
It's better than living insane… right?
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Between the whale and wasp
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Send a message via Skype™ to Senusret
Quote originally posted by Livewire:
From what I understand, he used some kind of Semi-Automatic handgun, a .9 Millimeter or a Glock with extended magazines.

Also, now we sit at 20 dead children, six dead adults, and the shooter.




Did you miss the point that this shooting, along with some of the recent ones, didn't involve criminals, but average people? This guy was just some 24 year old. So was the guy behinf the Aurora shooting, and so was Jared Loughner, the shooter in the Gabby Giffords Arizona shooting last year. It's far easier to walk into any old Walmart and buy one than to go about getting one illegally.

Not really an argument either.
So... mass murderers aren't criminals? That's what it sounds like you're saying. Just re-read what I said, and you'll see that I'm talking about premeditated murder. Its not like someone's going to spend months going through regulations just to kill some people, unless they plan on facing the consequences. (I'm referring to if there was tighter gun control.)

That being said, who would want an extra charge of illegal possession of a firearm on top of first-degree murder if they plan on living?
Reply With Quote
  #41    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:04 PM).
CarcharOdin's Avatar
CarcharOdin
Master of The Universe
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Monterey, California, USA
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Naughty
I'm disturbed by several things:

- This shooting in general.
- The fact that, despite it depressing me, I can't cry about it.
- How depressing it also is at how predictible the response to this is (i.e. " WE WANT MORE GUN CONTROL)
- The possibility of that letter being real.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm torn on the gun issue. On one hand, there needs to be better restrictions on what type of weapons the average person is allowed to have. On the other hand, the idea of taking weapons away from a population frightens me for some reason, because despite the fact that if you give the right to bear arms to the average person there will always be situations like this, I can't help but feel taking away guns from the population makes them more vulnerable to corrupt governments and criminals who'll find ways to hurt people anyway, obtaining the means legally or not.

In other words, lack of gun restrictions isn't the only problem here. People are a problem as well. At least, people who lack the fundamental understandings of responsibility and the value of treating others with respect.
__________________
"It's not genocide if no one likes them." - CarcharOdin

My Proposed PokeCommunity Dungeons & Dragons game. Leave a comment if interested.
Reply With Quote
  #42    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:11 PM).
TRIFORCE89's Avatar
TRIFORCE89
Guide of Darkness
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Temple of Light
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Nature: Quiet
Quote originally posted by CarcharOdin:
I'm disturbed by several things:

- This shooting in general.
- The fact that, despite it depressing me, I can't cry about it.
- How depressing it also is at how predictible the response to this is (i.e. " WE WANT MORE GUN CONTROL)
- The possibility of that letter being real.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm torn on the gun issue. On one hand, there needs to be better restrictions on what type of weapons the average person is allowed to have. On the other hand, the idea of taking weapons away from a population frightens me for some reason, because despite the fact that if you give the right to bear arms to the average person there will always be situations like this, I can't help but feel taking away guns from the population makes them more vulnerable to corrupt governments and criminals who'll find ways to hurt people anyway, obtaining the means legally or not.

In other words, lack of gun restrictions isn't the only problem here. People are a problem as well. At least, people who lack the fundamental understandings of responsibility and the value of treating others with respect.
Why does "gun control" mean taking away weapons? It's restricting the kind of weapon and controlling who can have weapons. You don't need military grade weapons. And any weapon shouldn't be in the hands of the mentally ill. Deadly weapons shouldn't be as simple to get as walking into a Wal-Mart or opening a bank account.

You can address all of that without striping weapons from a populace. It's called "control" for a reason.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #43    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:14 PM). Edited December 14th, 2012 by Livewire.
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Quote originally posted by AlexTheRose:
So... mass murderers aren't criminals? That's what it sounds like you're saying. Just re-read what I said, and you'll see that I'm talking about premeditated murder. Its not like someone's going to spend months going through regulations just to kill some people, unless they plan on facing the consequences. (I'm referring to if there was tighter gun control.)

That being said, who would want an extra charge of illegal possession of a firearm on top of first-degree murder if they plan on living?
They (the specific killers I mentioned) weren't criminals before they decided to kill people. Obviously, they are now. Nice strawman there.

What regulations? Successful lobbying efforts from the likes of the NRA keep loopholes alive and well. 40% of the guns in this country, legally bought, were purchased without some kind of background check, which is usually required by law. So obviously, they regulations need beefing up if people can evade them on technicalities. So people like this shooter, Jared Loughner, the Aurora shooter, etc., can easily acquire deadly firearms they have no business owning. I find that sickening and outrageous.

'Gun Control' isn't taking away any weapons or guns from ordinary people. Any normal joe schmo can waltz into Walmart and buy one. If you're a normal person, someone who isn't a delusional sociopath, gun control laws do not effect you whatsoever. You can still have your weapon if you so choose. They are designed so that people with criminal records and people who have 'red flag' personality traits, mental instability, etc, cannot get them. If you don't fall into that category, then it does not apply to you. End of discussion.
__________________
BSS | D&D | PM | VM
Reply With Quote
  #44    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:15 PM). Edited December 14th, 2012 by CarcharOdin.
CarcharOdin's Avatar
CarcharOdin
Master of The Universe
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Monterey, California, USA
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Naughty
Quote originally posted by TRIFORCE89:
Why does "gun control" mean taking away weapons? It's restricting the kind of weapon and controlling who can have weapons. You don't need military grade weapons. And any weapon shouldn't be in the hands of the mentally ill. Deadly weapons shouldn't be as simple to get as walking into a Wal-Mart or opening a bank account.

You can address all of that without striping weapons from a populace. It's called "control" for a reason.
Yeah, you are right. Control isn't the same as taking away. And I can understand where you're coming from and I find it somewhat agreeable.

But I'm just saying restrictions make me feel a little uneasy, that's all. Don't know why, it just does.
__________________
"It's not genocide if no one likes them." - CarcharOdin

My Proposed PokeCommunity Dungeons & Dragons game. Leave a comment if interested.
Reply With Quote
  #45    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:24 PM).
Senusret's Avatar
Senusret
It's better than living insane… right?
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Between the whale and wasp
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Send a message via Skype™ to Senusret
Quote originally posted by Livewire:
They (the specific killers I mentioned) weren't criminals before they decided to kill people. Obviously, they are now. Nice strawman there.
If they have the intent to commit a crime, why do you think they'd bother following all of the other laws? That's my question.

Anyway, this is kind of off-topic. Let's just stop it here. This is sad enough already for us to be arguing about gun control of all times.
Reply With Quote
  #46    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:29 PM).
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
でんきタイプ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sunyshore City
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Quote originally posted by AlexTheRose:
If they have the intent to commit a crime, why do you think they'd bother following all of the other laws? That's my question.
That's just it. They don't have to bother with the laws because all you have to do is walk into a damn Walmart to get one. There's your answer.
__________________
BSS | D&D | PM | VM
Reply With Quote
  #47    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:37 PM).
CarcharOdin's Avatar
CarcharOdin
Master of The Universe
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Monterey, California, USA
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Naughty
Quote originally posted by Livewire:
That's just it. They don't have to bother with the laws because all you have to do is walk into a damn Walmart to get one. There's your answer.
I don't know about you, but every Wal-mart I've walked into here in California so far, the closest things to guns they sell are paintball guns and air rifles.

Of course, I live near Salinas and I hear gun crime is particularly bad there, so maybe I haven't been looking in the right places. Not that I need to, though.
__________________
"It's not genocide if no one likes them." - CarcharOdin

My Proposed PokeCommunity Dungeons & Dragons game. Leave a comment if interested.
Reply With Quote
  #48    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:47 PM).
Sableye~'s Avatar
Sableye~
Back to PC~
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Nature: Quiet
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "gun control".
By changing laws involving guns (i.e. banning magazines that hold so many bullets), it just allows the people who do things like this (what the original post says) and stops people from defending themselves.

Though I'm very biased on the matter, so I probably shouldn't be getting into this discussion. T:
__________________
I can't think of a good signature.
Reply With Quote
  #49    
Old December 14th, 2012 (02:59 PM).
The Amazing Justin's Avatar
The Amazing Justin
The Original Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Sometimes, I get down with the blues. Sometimes, I felt no man cared if I was alive. Then, I see a story like this and realize how lucky I really am. I could never begin to believe how traumatic this situation was and how it will scare these children for the rest of their lives. They'll be better than me for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #50    
Old December 14th, 2012 (03:04 PM).
Senusret's Avatar
Senusret
It's better than living insane… right?
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Between the whale and wasp
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Send a message via Skype™ to Senusret
Quote originally posted by Livewire:
That's just it. They don't have to bother with the laws because all you have to do is walk into a damn Walmart to get one. There's your answer.
Yep, because Wal-Mart just sells guns illegally and 'doesn't bother with the laws'. What has the world come to!?
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 11:59 AM.