Gen V: More Controversial Than Gen III

[coolcatkim22]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Fans who think anything that's not like Gen 1 is crud.

I don't think any thing that is not Gen 1 is crud, I think anything that is misplaced in the series or just stupid on it's own merits is crud.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

So it means the game's story is slowly evolving to what the developers originally planned.

And I ask again, so what?

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

You have no idea how many people hate Victory Road, as well as Mt. Coronet, because of their frustrating puzzles. The series' primary target are children, and they don't want to place time-consuming puzzles. If you really want the puzzles to stay complex, then they could try to input a super guide like they did with the Zelda games to help younger players.

If they don't want to figure out puzzles then they shouldn't play an RPGs. Look half the fun of RPGs are about figuring stuff out. Figuring out battle strategies, figuring out where to go next and having the patient to take the time to try and figure it out.
If the kids don't want to waste time then they can go play another game. And yes, they can go ask for help but even so, this a flaw in the games that needs to be wipe.
Even so, you are missing my point. My point that the games shouldn't go in the opposite direction. They shouldn't become over simplistic just to appeal to kids who don't want to try. Games far harder then Pokemon have been created and the kids who played those games had the patients to put up with it.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Then don't face Audinos; they're really easy to avoid.

That's not the point. This is going in circles. Okay, I'll try to explain this again.

Say you are playing Super Mario Brothers and you really want to beat it, but you're having trouble. Now, you don't want to use the level skipping warp pipes because you want to beat this on you're own merit but then you find out all you're friends have beaten the game by using the pipes.

So, why exactly at this point should you not use the pipes any more? What will you truly accomplished by not using the pipes? You'll have beaten the game but all friends already did that. Well, you could say you beat it with out using the pipes but what kind of accomplishment is that? Sure I beat a more challenging game of Super Mario Brothers but it was only more difficult because I made the number of opportunities to lose greater.

Let's step back from SMB for a second now. The warp pipe is not a great example because even if you use the pipes you still have a little bit to go before you win the game and the other levels are still very challenging.
Here's the thing though, the Audinos are not the only thing that makes the game easy, nor is the items you get, the map linear, the availability of Trainers to fight, the lack of HMs you need, the help guide, or anything else in the game to make it easier, it's all of them put together. The game constantly gives you the means to beat it easily, and even is built to be easy.
Also, don't tell me again I can make it more difficult for myself I can make any difficult for my self. I don't need a game to do that I can just do that by making every task in my life more difficult to accomplish then necessary. What I need games for is to challenge me, not by making things complicated, but by being clever, by challenging my mind with things I need to think about.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

When did I ever said that? You said you wanted games to challenge you, and I only said you should play NES/arcade games, because modern games aren't as difficult as those games. Regardless of that, Iceman3317 pretty much nailed why you find these Pokemon games easy, because you've been playing Pokemon for years. Have you ever considered reading any of these comment on this thread?

Exactly, and difficulty dictates how good a game is. I'm not saying there that all challenging games are necessarily good but all good games have to be challenging. If your saying that none of the modern games are challenging then how can any of them be good.

I read a few but then some started stating that my opinion, and every else who shares my opinion, probably exists for the most rudimentary of reasons. Never just once pondering or asking if the reason maybe is because Gen 5 is not very good.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by coolcatkim22

I don't think any thing that is not Gen 1 is crud, I think anything that is misplaced in the series or just stupid on it's own merits is crud.

But then you'll be complaining how the games are the same old same old without these tweaks.

And I ask again, so what?

So whether you like it or not, the series is evolving.

If they don't want to figure out puzzles then they shouldn't play an RPGs. Look half the fun of RPGs are about figuring stuff out. Figuring out battle strategies, figuring out where to go next and having the patient to take the time to try and figure it out.
If the kids don't want to waste time then they can go play another game. And yes, they can go ask for help but even so, this a flaw in the games that needs to be wipe.
Even so, you are missing my point. My point that the games shouldn't go in the opposite direction. They shouldn't become over simplistic just to appeal to kids who don't want to try. Games far harder then Pokemon have been created and the kids who played those games had the patients to put up with it.

There's a reason why Pokemon is rated E rather than E 10+, it's because of the need for simple puzzles rather than the rather complex puzzles.

That's not the point. This is going in circles. Okay, I'll try to explain this again.

Say you are playing Super Mario Brothers and you really want to beat it, but you're having trouble. Now, you don't want to use the level skipping warp pipes because you want to beat this on you're own merit but then you find out all you're friends have beaten the game by using the pipes.

So, why exactly at this point should you not use the pipes any more? What will you truly accomplished by not using the pipes? You'll have beaten the game but all friends already did that. Well, you could say you beat it with out using the pipes but what kind of accomplishment is that? Sure I beat a more challenging game of Super Mario Brothers but it was only more difficult because I made the number of opportunities to lose greater.

It's actually a great accomplishment if you ask me. Beating SMB without pipes is the same challenge as beating Contra without using the Konami Code, which the AVGN did as a kid.

Let's step back from SMB for a second now. The warp pipe is not a great example because even if you use the pipes you still have a little bit to go before you win the game and the other levels are still very challenging.
Here's the thing though, the Audinos are not the only thing that makes the game easy, nor is the items you get, the map linear, the availability of Trainers to fight, the lack of HMs you need, the help guide, or anything else in the game to make it easier, it's all of them put together. The game constantly gives you the means to beat it easily, and even is built to be easy.
Also, don't tell me again I can make it more difficult for myself I can make any difficult for my self. I don't need a game to do that I can just do that by making every task in my life more difficult to accomplish then necessary. What I need games for is to challenge me, not by making things complicated, but by being clever, by challenging my mind with things I need to think about.

The reason why Gen 1 was challenging is because of its game breaking mechanics (i.e. Psychic types), and the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order. The Gen V provides an example of what Gen 1 would've been if it wasn't so broken. You can say the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline, which means they're slowly dominating the Pokemon fanbase.

Exactly, and difficulty dictates how good a game is. I'm not saying there that all challenging games are necessarily good but all good games have to be challenging. If your saying that none of the modern games are challenging then how can any of them be good.

Games can still be good without being challenging. Just look at Kirby for example. We really don't want the difficulty for modern games to be like that of Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden. Hardcore gamers shouldn't be all self-entitled about wanting today's games to be as difficult as the games from the 80's and early 90's.

I read a few but then some started stating that my opinion, and every else who shares my opinion, probably exists for the most rudimentary of reasons. Never just once pondering or asking if the reason maybe is because Gen 5 is not very good.

Maybe because they're true? You guys really aren't giving the series any favors other than trying to devolve them after what they've come so far to improving the game experience for the past 15 years.

[coolcatkim22]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

But then you'll be complaining how the games are the same old same old without these tweaks.

Not if the game replace the tweaks with other tweaks that are much better.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

So whether you like it or not, the series is evolving.

It's evolving poorly.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

There's a reason why Pokemon is rated E rather than E 10+, it's because of the need for simple puzzles rather than the rather complex puzzles.

The ESRB is a rating system used to inform the buyer of any sensitive content within the game. It is meant to tell whether the game has any violence, swearing, sexual content or anything other wise that might be inappropriate for a child. It is not a rating for the difficulty of the game.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

The reason why Gen 1 was challenging is because of its game breaking mechanics (i.e. Psychic types), and the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order. The Gen V provides an example of what Gen 1 would've been if it wasn't so broken. You can say the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline, which means they're slowly dominating the Pokemon fanbase.

Gen 1 was challenging for me because it didn't hold my hand. It didn't have a tutorial function, it didn't give me a infinite bag, it didn't have pointless bridges, and it didn't have freakin' critical captures.

Look, you keep saying how Gen 1 was easy cause it was broken. And yes that's probably true, but it was not intentional. It's easy because people were stupid when programming the thing, not that they were trying to make it easy for us. I didn't have an easy time playing the game, why, because I didn't know that psychic type was broken. And why didn't I know, because if they had meant for it to be they would have told me so instead of kept hammering that Ghost types were super effective against Psychic types.

So, yeah that game is broken but Gen 5 isn't so it has no excuse. It purposely makes the game easier for you and that is what the problem is It has no respect for my or anyone else's intelligence. It treats its players like idiots. I know you could say "it's for children" but children are not this stupid and it's an insult to kids everywhere to say that they are.

Also, I have no idea what this sentence means "the maps for the first two gens had you go to places you weren't suppose to go yet in terms of the Gym order." Could you please explain?

Also also, "the complete linearity was for the more competitive players who want to develop their teams quicker after completing the storyline".
Thank you! That is my second problem with the linearity of the games. Appealing to the competitive players.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Games can still be good without being challenging. Just look at Kirby for example. We really don't want the difficulty for modern games to be like that of Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden. Hardcore gamers shouldn't be all self-entitled about wanting today's games to be as difficult as the games from the 80's and early 90's.

I don't want games to be as difficult as before because some were too difficult. But I think games should have some difficulty in them otherwise what's the point?
I don't know about Kirby since I've never played one but I assume that even those games have some difficulty in them. A game without difficulty to me is nothing but busy work. And though, I may find that to be fun and surely other people do too, I would never pay forty dollars for a game like that. Especially when there is a good deal of games like that for free.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Maybe because they're true? You guys really aren't giving the series any favors other than trying to devolve them after what they've come so far to improving the game experience for the past 15 years.

What have they improved in this series? All they've done is simplified certain things, complicated other things and try to do things that the series can not do well at this point in time. It has no originality, it's story is stupid, the characters are poorly drawn, the game is often a pixelated nightmare and it ignores the players who care about the journey for players who don't.

[Pingouin7]

People make this kind of hate towards every new generation just because it's not their favourite Gen I/II/III.
Nothing new here.

[filecabinet24]

I thought Black/White was a much better improvement over its predecessor than Ruby/Sapphire were. The 5th generation Pokemon were (mostly) original, not like how alot of the 3rd generation Pokemon were just copies of the 1st generation ones.

[Itstoppedatumbreon]

Honeslty, having played all previous generations, i was looking forward to it.
It was my least favourite of the pokemon games, i think it changed too much. I think the game was too story driven. I like the prvious games, where its just "get the badges a bit of team rocket, done" I liked having team Aqua and the kyogre stuff, but i felt that team plasma just did too much in this game. Also, the new pokemon were mostly worse than previous ons IMO. Some, like that one made of rubbish (Muk 2) and Woobat (zubat 2) where just copies of others. When the starter final evolutions were revealed, i remember people thinking they were fake, as they looked like other pokemon already in the games (Dialga,Milotic and i beleive Rhyperior?)
The futuristic, more technological cities i did not like as much. I dont know why. And good as that one with the skyscrapers looked, there want nearly enough actually there to make it needed.

By no means a bad game, but not a great game, like the previous 4 gens

[Jbsundown]

I have played pretty much every 'main' Pokémon game in the series.
I feel that BW was a bad move, but that is just because I have played the entire series before. Just like how every complained at RSE, it is mainly because it is a new area, with new pokémon and they weren't brought into the series through it. They potentially feel that it is alien and doesn't belong in the series at all.
However if we take the point of view from someone who has never played a Pokémon game before and the first game they play is BW or BW2 they will probably love it. Just how we all loved our first Pokémon game. If someone who's first game was BW or BW2 went and played a gen 1 game without knowing what it was, they would probably think that the game was stupid and wouldn't respect it for what it is.
The fact is, we have all played the other games and we feel that we don't want the series how we remember it to be interfered with.

I remember when Diamond and Pearl were released, everyone around me thought that it was brilliant because it added in many cool things to the series. Also the idea of a 'God' Pokémon was amazing and everyone wanted one!
Then when BW was announced, I felt like Pokémon had just blanked everything it had previously used. I mean, they released God, then they released more. That idea just messed with me a lot.
Something about Gen V just seems different as well. In all of the other generations, when the message popped up saying that trainer xxxxx was about to send out xxxxx I would know what it was and how to counter it. But in gen V, no such thing can happen for me. The names just don't stick with me as well as I'd hoped.

Also the way that the games are chronologically structured makes this BW and BW2 sit uneasy with me.
The games chronologically go:
Gen I/III
Gen II/IV
Gen V
There are a few year gaps that you one could easily search for on the internet.
After the events and findings in DPP, it seems odd that there would be more than God. I think the reason I don't enjoy gen 5 as much as the others is that, in my head, I figured that the games' story would not progress chronologically.

One thing that people may be forgetting as well, is that Pokémon builds its games for the newer generation of people. It assumes that all of the people who had played gen 1 would not play gen 5. Therefore they cater towards the younger gamers, the people who Pokémon was intended for. Going back to my earlier point, if someone were to play a gen 5 game as their first game then they would love it. Gamefreak develop games for the younger demographic. So, for us so-called 'veterans' the games aren't tailored towards us any more and it is expected that we won't enjoy it. However, with so many more people being born and coming of 'Pokémon Playing Age', this causes Gamefreak to essentially 'forget' about the 'hardcore' Pokémon fans, if a game releases different (I.E Black and White) but still sells well, then Gamefreak will think nothing of it and continue as they have been.
I am not saying that we should stop buying Pokémon games, because that idea is just preposterous. We should just make do with what we have and enjoy it.

Black and White, and Black 2 and White 2, weren't bad games. People just had their visions fogged and thought of them as a bad game. I still play Pokémon White, and enjoy it to an extent, I have not picked up a copy of Black 2 or White 2 so I can't say how different they are. Still, it is probably also a good game. Just not the game we were all hoping/expecting.

[Cerberus87]

Originally Posted by filecabinet24

I thought Black/White was a much better improvement over its predecessor than Ruby/Sapphire were. The 5th generation Pokemon were (mostly) original, not like how alot of the 3rd generation Pokemon were just copies of the 1st generation ones.

Thank you for sparing me the trouble of posting this and upsetting all the current 3rd gen fans who suddenly stepped out of their holes due to the possibility of a remake.

I think the number one reason 3rd gen was so hated, along with everything else that usually comes up (different design philosophy, boring world with water routes, lack of originality), is the fact you couldn't transfer your Pokémon from GSC into it. It would've been difficult to do so, because the systems are so different, but Gamefreak could've at least tried something. There are many differences between GBA and DS Pokémon data as well, yet you can transfer Pokémon to DPPt/HGSS freely. I think it wasn't thought of in the past because backwards compatibility wasn't such a big thing back then. If you don't count the Game Boy Color, no Nintendo console up to the Gamecube is compatible with their predecessors. The first console to have backwards compatibility with its predecessor was the competitor PS2.

I could answer all the points in the first post with a proper argument, but seriously, to the people complaining about the nurses in the BW routes... The old games also had them.

Audino is there so that it's less annoying to bring a freshly caught Pokémon to the level of your party. It's quite fun to hunt them too.

The strong trainers in BW actually have pretty good Pokémon. The E4 movesets, for example, are much improved compared to the old games.

And Arceus isn't "God". It's the "Creation" Pokémon. All the ubers like Lugia, Ho-Oh, Groudon, etc., are "gods" in that respect, or worshipped as gods.

[masaru3]

This is actually one of my favorite Generations. Unova is great and all the improvements were great. Don't like the Musicals much, but I liked pretty much everything else.
The fact that the TMs are reusable is one of the best things they did.