Community Hack [Pre-production]

[Bela]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

Also is there anything not mentioned that you would like to see in the hack?

Port your repel hack. Let's do cutscenes. Maybe eyecatches before battles if that can be done well. Formes for Pokemon, new moves (not just gen 4/5 moves), new items. That all would be cool to see!

[Noossab Blue]

Well, I mentioned the pokeradar, although I can't even imagine what kind of nightmare that would be to introduce.

What do people think of editing existing pokemon? Beefing BSTs, new typings/abilities, or possibly even overhauling the type effectiveness chart altogether? I know that it could isolate people who want a hack more similar to the original games, but I think there is a lot of potential for balancing neglected types and pokemon.


Something else I've always thought about is multiple natures. I mean, no one is only naughty/jolly/adamant/hasty etc. Perhaps the primary nature could be +/- 7-10, and the second 3-5? That would make for much more interesting capabilities, and I think it would reduce endless resetting for natures, given it would be hard to get two natures you like.



Of course, both the pokeradar and multiple natures are undoubtedly highly complex, but if it could ever happen, it would be with a group of highly skilled asm hackers like the ones we have here.

[Fireworks]

Yes at all of them and in response to wanting new things, I'd like to see more Pokemon overworlds around the map to make it feel more realistic, and assuming this is firered, try and find some way to import the mugshot feature from ruby.

[Jambo51]

Originally Posted by Bela

Port your repel hack. Let's do cutscenes. Maybe eyecatches before battles if that can be done well. Formes for Pokemon, new moves (not just gen 4/5 moves), new items. That all would be cool to see!

Doesn't this pretty much limit you to using the 649 Patch as a base? Unless you want to spend countless hours on getting the formes to work in your own way that is.

I utterly disagree with changing the existing Pokémon around. I am one of those classic fans that Noosab refers to, and it would certainly put me off ever trying the hack if I knew you messed with a well balanced typing system or changed types or base stats.

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should!" - Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park

I think this quote is apt here. Just because we can, it doesn't mean we should.

[FBI agent]

I had a feature in my feature book that I thought would be awesome. I'm not sure if this is implemented anywhere, I haven't played any of the other newer games.

When you learn an HM move, you should have the option of whether or not you want it to take up a moveslot. This way I don't need to teach my Pokemon useless moves like RockSmash while worrying about it preventing me from learning better moves.

Basically, when I use an HM, I should have the option to "Learn normally" and "Outside battle only". "Learn normally" is the same as usual, the move is learned as an attack to be used in battle (at the same time it can be used outside given required badges). Whereas "Outside battle only" would be just having the Pokemon know how to use the move without it taking up an ability slot (kinda like a second ability/passive).

This way you don't have to worry about the annoyance of unlearning HMs (and HMs preventing you from learning good moves/being forced to delete good moves), at the same time you have to option to learn some of the more useful moves like surf for inbattle and outside.

Final example for those of us who don't understand yet:

1) Which Pokemon would like to learn Cut?
2) Pokemon X has the capability to learn this move for use in battle or passively. Would you like to learn for use in battle?

@yes: Normal HM mechanic.

@no: HM does not take a move slot, but can be used outside battle.

[Pink Parka Girl]

Do we port the Poison (poison deals no damage in the overworld, or Pokemon can not faint from poison in the overworld) system from the newer games?
Heck no. I would be adamantly against this. Presumably, this project is aimed at the older side of the Pokemon fan community and this sort of dumbing down of what is already not a difficult game to begin with would be most unwelcome by myself. Add in too much handholding and there will be no challenge left. Poison being a death sentence adds motivation and difficulty. Please don't remove this.

Do we port the TM (never disappear) system from the newer games?
Yes please!

Do we want to use the new (combined with PokeMart) Pokemon Centers?
I like this. It saves on tileset space and adds convenience.

Do we want to implement newer breeding (Masuda method, passing abilities) techniques?
Why not? If we want this to be treated as seriously as any "real" Pokemon game than things like this (even if only for ingame play) would be quite welcome.

Do we remove the need of badges to use HM field moves?
It makes more sense as a broken bridge than people or pokemon randomly blocking paths and then moving for no real reason, so no.

Do we port the newer EXP system?
Yes, why not?

As for editing existing pokemon, I am 100% for this. I would really love to see NU 'mon be useable on the same level as their OU breathern; and tweaks like this essentially lead into a whole new sort of challenge, ala mods like BB/VW. I do however draw the line at new types; there isn't any real need for this.

[11bayerf1]

I personally say no to editing pokemon in terms of base stats or types.
It just doesn't feel like Pokemon when that happens.
I think if we want to buff pokemon, it should only be in terms of moves.
Possibly in some form of alternate ability as well. In a sort of 'hidden ability'
system. That being said there isn't much point in Gen 3, as Gen 3 abilities
are pretty basic.

[Anbuja's_BlooDY]

Do we port the Poison (poison deals no damage in the overworld, or Pokemon can not faint from poison in the overworld) system from the newer games?
Hurt outside of battles YES, die outside NO Please.


Do we port the TM (never disappear) system from the newer games?
Not really I'd would be alot enjoyable if we would add the same TM 2-3 times in the hack and make people actually search for them, then having it forever in your bag.(Tm thunderbolt on the entire team would be annoying)


Do we want to use the new (combined with PokeMart) Pokemon Centers?
Well depends on the tiles you want in Tileset1.
If the Inserter knows how to save space with X/Y flips etc, and how to use manager the palletes and tiles that goes into each pallete, then it would be a really big problem to make seperate buildings for PC/mart or just one.


Do we want to implement newer breeding (Masuda method, passing abilities) techniques?
No clue tbh, I never really played Pokemon to start with those IV's or ability pass trainings(Only heard of it).
I think the only game where I have encountered until now was Dragon warrior Monster where you breeded to the best monsters. And it was fun at the beginning, but got boring later.


Do we remove the need of badges to use HM field moves?
GOD NO, maybe if possible make HM like items. Find a swort and cut trees, get a Power bracelet and move rocks etc (LoZ reference), but then for surf and waterfall I'd still keep it for a pokemon.(Super human climbing waterfalls like in the olympics)


Do we port the newer EXP system?
I'm not really familiar with this system(Last game I've played was HG/SS&P/P/D, but I think its like a Lv.15 pokemon doesn't get 32 exp from a Lv.4 Wild pokemon, I might be wrong though.
Would make grinding alot harder, but of course if the difficulty Level of the hack isn't that hard as some XXXX hard version, then this system would'nt be that out off place.

[machomuu]

Do we port the Poison (poison deals no damage in the overworld, or Pokemon can not faint from poison in the overworld) system from the newer games?
I'm really indifferent to this, but the addition would coerce (or persuade) players to think ahead when making an inventory, and I've always liked that in an RPG.

Do we port the TM (never disappear) system from the newer games?
Hm...It's not that I don't like the system (it is a nice feature), but...it may make things too easy, not so much in the mid-game as it would be in the early and end games.

Do we remove the need of badges to use HM field moves?
Well, that largely depends on the basis for the hack. Will all HMs be needed? Will gym battles be mandatory to progress? If the answer to those to are "yes", then my answer to this question is no. If either answer is "no", then my answer would be yes.

Honestly, I don't like the formulaic design of going from gym to gym, beating the evil team, and then finally beating the Elite Four. It's a theme that has persisted in the main game and the majority of hacks here on the forum- not that that makes them inherently bad, it doesn't. The thing is, if we were to make a game that followed that formula, then keeping the need would probably a given. If we were to do something "original" and less restrictive in that sense, I'd say we should. Though, we could always keep badges, or at least the scripts, in mind in case we want to restrict the use without resorting to mandatory gym battles.

Though I have always been a fan of the "Items with HM functions" idea.

Do we port the newer EXP system?
Definitely, I've found that this EXP system makes training a lot less of a chore, so people don't have to grind as much, and that is a Godsend for Pokemon.

[Darthatron]

Regarding HMs.

I've always had this idea for them which basically entails reading from the Learn-able HM section. If the Pokemon can normally learn the HM, then it would be able to use it naturally in the overworld. This way, they can be treated as normal moves: deletable. But all water pokemon can naturally use Surf, for example.

[machomuu]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

Regarding HMs.

I've always had this idea for them which basically entails reading from the Learn-able HM section. If the Pokemon can normally learn the HM, then it would be able to use it naturally in the overworld. This way, they can be treated as normal moves: deletable. But all water pokemon can naturally use Surf, for example.

I like that idea alot; though I think that, should we incorporate it, the hack would have to have a rather free and open-ended design to compliment that. Well, that or we resort to borders, people blocking areas, and the like.

[Darthatron]

Originally Posted by machomuu

I like that idea alot; though I think that, should we incorporate it, the hack would have to have a rather free and open-ended design to compliment that. Well, that or we resort to borders, people blocking areas, and the like.

It would be possible to still require badges or something. Say a gym leader taught you how to climb a waterfall using your Pokemon after you beat him?

[machomuu]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

It would be possible to still require badges or something. Say a gym leader taught you how to climb a waterfall using your Pokemon after you beat him?

I like it, it seems far more natural (and logical) than simply barring their use because one obtained a badge, and it frees the player from having to create an HM slave (or HM slaves) while still encouraging diversity on ones team.

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

I utterly disagree with changing the existing Pokémon around. I am one of those classic fans that Noosab refers to, and it would certainly put me off ever trying the hack if I knew you messed with a well balanced typing system or changed types or base stats.

oh no non-canon mechanics in a hack how terrible

Serious suggestion for the HMs- why not just make them viable when you get them? 60/100 Cut with Grass, Steel, or Bug typing is fairly popular. For Strength I've heard of 80/100 Fighting with a chance to raise attack, though personally I'm partial to 100/100 Normal so the AI can have a Return clone it understands how to use. Heck, you can also just leave Strength unedited since 80 BP is quite usable for most things in midgame. Rock Smash is generally 40-50 BP with an arbitrarily high chance to lower defense, or just omitted since it's generally really annoying. Flash is rendered pointless by tweaking an emulator setting so just omit it. Surf and Waterfall are both important and reliable moves already.

(Minor note- if y'all use the 649 patch or implement Technician and Cut becomes 60 BP Steel, that's a viable endgame move for Scizor if it's present. Much better option than scrapping the moves IMO.)

With regards to having the leaders teach you how to use the HMs- that would be a waste of the player's time. Some people may be very bad at figuring things out but I don't think we need what will be seen as essentially a tutorial on how to press A in front of a bush after every gym.

Now, I'd like to address something else- why is nearly everyone here so afraid of changing the pokemon themselves? While I've seen plenty of train-wreck hacks to know how this can go wrong, I don't think swearing by canon when making a fangame is a good way to make anything interesting. The standard system is hardly balanced- behemoths like Graveler, Staraptor, and Excadrill tend to trivialize most of the main games and many hacks in which they're present (and not given borked movepools), while other mons such as Beedrill and Chimecho are given garbage stats and narrow movepools. What is there to be gained by leaving the system as is? Are you really so offended by the notion that players might not be punished for wanting to use Furret?

Also:

Doesn't this pretty much limit you to using the 649 Patch as a base? Unless you want to spend countless hours on getting the formes to work in your own way that is.

Most meaningful forme changes can be accomplished with evolutionary stones.

[Noossab Blue]

Originally Posted by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

Serious suggestion for the HMs- why not just make them viable when you get them?

I would be totally fine with this idea too. As for rock smash, why not make it a force palm clone or something? Assuming we don't just implement all moves through gen 5, that is.

Originally Posted by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

Now, I'd like to address something else- why is nearly everyone here so afraid of changing the pokemon themselves? While I've seen plenty of train-wreck hacks to know how this can go wrong, I don't think swearing by canon when making a fangame is a good way to make anything interesting. The standard system is hardly balanced- behemoths like Graveler, Staraptor, and Excadrill tend to trivialize most of the main games and many hacks in which they're present (and not given borked movepools), while other mons such as Beedrill and Chimecho are given garbage stats and narrow movepools. What is there to be gained by leaving the system as is? Are you really so offended by the notion that players might not be punished for wanting to use Furret?

^this. Personally, I would love to play a hack that I can use my favorite pokemon in and still feel they are viable at end-game.

[11bayerf1]

Originally Posted by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

Also:

Most meaningful forme changes can be accomplished with evolutionary stones.

This is very true. In the case of Rotom, every form could easily be changed with a stone, bar the Fridge and the Fan, but if an ice stone or something was added that would fix that problem. Perhaps a thunderstone could be a way to revert it?
Possibly stones could be made to reflect the appliances themselves and would be useful only for Rotom?

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

It would be possible to still require badges or something. Say a gym leader taught you how to climb a waterfall using your Pokemon after you beat him?

That won't work. Say I'm at the first gym and want to use RockSmash to get past an area, I beat him but none of my Pokemon can learn Rock Smash? What if I catch a Pokemon later on and I want to teach it surf after the initial tutoring?

See the current HM system is perfectly good. The only real issue is the fact that you're punished for NEEDing Pokemon to waste moveslots on these moves to continue ingame progress.
I still like what I suggested regarding HMs. It's similar to this:

Originally Posted by Darthatron

Regarding HMs.
If the Pokemon can normally learn the HM, then it would be able to use it naturally in the overworld.

imo my idea was still better because if you choose to use it for natural uses outdoors only, then it doesn't take up a move slot. I mean, it's kinda ridiculous if you need to have your Gyarados need surf in it's move set for it to swim. It's much easier to just let it learn surf for outside if you want or for both battle and outside.

As for the suggestions about changing move powers and such, if we choose my idea, then that just won't really be necessary. If you REALLY did want moves that scale then you'd have to scale them with the Pokemon's level. Changing Rock Smash to 60 power = Good Game rock gyms vs lvl 8 Charmander.

[Darthatron]

Originally Posted by FBI agent

That won't work. Say I'm at the first gym and want to use RockSmash to get past an area, I beat him but none of my Pokemon can learn Rock Smash? What if I catch a Pokemon later on and I want to teach it surf after the initial tutoring?

See the current HM system is perfectly good. The only real issue is the fact that you're punished for NEEDing Pokemon to waste moveslots on these moves to continue ingame progress.
I still like what I suggested regarding HMs. It's similar to this:


imo my idea was still better because if you choose to use it for natural uses outdoors only, then it doesn't take up a move slot. I mean, it's kinda ridiculous if you need to have your Gyarados need surf in it's move set for it to swim. It's much easier to just let it learn surf for outside if you want or for both battle and outside.

As for the suggestions about changing move powers and such, if we choose my idea, then that just won't really be necessary. If you REALLY did want moves that scale then you'd have to scale them with the Pokemon's level. Changing Rock Smash to 60 power = Good Game rock gyms vs lvl 8 Charmander.

You misunderstand. It wouldn't take a move slot. You would just be able to use those moves on the overworld after getting the badge. You can teach the moves to the pokemon normally.

[Jambo51]

Originally Posted by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

oh no non-canon mechanics in a hack how terrible

Really? I express my opinion on an idea that someone put forward and you respond with that ^ snarky response?

I'm entitled to like the mechanics just the way they are, and if you disagree so, why not actually back your opinion up with hard facts, and then tell us how you would go about fixing them? You never know, you might point out some blatantly obvious thing I'm overlooking which really needs addressed.

I'm all for non canon mechanics, I'm all for tweaking moves or adding new moves, but Pikachu (as an example) is weak for a reason, if you want to make your favourite Pokémon more powerful, that's fine, but if you make EVERYONE's favourite Pokémon powerful, we end up with a mess of a game.

Exercise restraint, that's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

Most meaningful forme changes can be accomplished with evolutionary stones.

While this is true, it looks really bad, which is why I implied we should steer clear of it. And that's ignoring the hacking required to make the dex correctly recognise them.

Formes aren't HARD, they just take a lot of work, that's all.

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

You misunderstand. It wouldn't take a move slot. You would just be able to use those moves on the overworld after getting the badge. You can teach the moves to the pokemon normally.

Ahh, I see. I was thinking that you had an idea of an event where the gym leader was going to teach the trainer how to use an HM to a Pokemon, lol.
Anyway, if this is the case it's the same as my idea :)

Originally Posted by Jambo51

Really? I express my opinion on an idea that someone put forward and you respond with that ^ snarky response?

I'm entitled to like the mechanics just the way they are, and if you disagree so, why not actually back your opinion up with hard facts, and then tell us how you would go about fixing them? You never know, you might point out some blatantly obvious thing I'm overlooking which really needs addressed.

I'm all for non canon mechanics, I'm all for tweaking moves or adding new moves, but Pikachu (as an example) is weak for a reason, if you want to make your favourite Pokémon more powerful, that's fine, but if you make EVERYONE's favourite Pokémon powerful, we end up with a mess of a game.

Exercise restraint, that's all I'm saying.



While this is true, it looks really bad, which is why I implied we should steer clear of it. And that's ignoring the hacking required to make the dex correctly recognise them.

Formes aren't HARD, they just take a lot of work, that's all.

*Holds back urge to give snarky response.*

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

spoilered for length:

Spoiler:

Pikachu is sub-optimal because it's not fully evolved and when armed with Light Ball has offensive stats on par with Rayquaza- Raichu on the other hand is more service-able. I'm referring more to mons that are irredeemably horrible even for in-game use.

(base stats are ordered hp/atk/def/satk/sdef/speed)

Furret: 85/76/64/45/55/90, Run Away/Keen Eye/(Frisk)
Kangaskhan: 105/95/80/40/80/90, Early Bird/Scrappy/(Inner Focus)
Ambipom: 75/100/66/60/66/115, Technician/Pick Up/(Skill Link)
Miltank: 95/80/105/40/70/100, Thick Fat/Scrappy/(Sap Sipper)
Stoutland: 85/100/90/45/90/80, Intimidate/Sand Rush/(Scrappy)

What exactly is Furret supposed to do? Even the humble Kangaskhan eclipses it in every stat except Special Attack, which is irrelevant as it's still a worse special attacker than Machoke. Its abilities are borderline useless- Run Away is rendered redundant by a fast lead, Pokedolls, or just carrying Potions around. Keen Eye is situationally useful, but accuracy lowering moves disappear after early-game. Frisk is okay but still nowhere near as powerful as Scrappy or Technician. In terms of moves they get...Sucker Punch, Focus Punch, and Hone Claws. The latter would be better if it had inaccurate moves to abuse it with, but they don't even get the FR Mega Punch tutor so it's essentially Howl. It does enjoy decent 85/64/55 bulk...which actually isn't far off from Infernape's maligned 76/71/71.

Flareon: 65/130/60/95/110/65 Flash Fire/(Guts)

I'm not going to provide other mons next to this one because you probably know exactly what I'm getting at- the fact that this thing doesn't get any Fire STAB more powerful than Fire Fang. Consequently, its most damaging attack is actually Fire Blast, making its best stat is largely irrelevant. Contrast with the other Eeveelutions, which all have decent attacking choices and movesets that complement their stats, and you start to see why nobody uses Flareon in serious play.

Ariados: 70/90/70/60/60/40 Swarm/Insomnia/(Sniper)
Beedrill: 65/80/40/45/80/75 Swarm/(Sniper)
Scolipede: 60/90/89/55/69/112 Poison Point/Swarm/(Quick Feet)

What are these supposed to be accomplishing? All of them have offensive stats combined with terrible offensive typing- Poison hits nothing SE that Bug doesn't already, and entirely misses out on Steel. Scolipede at least has Megahorn to give it a little more oomph, along with being a fast Spiker- the other two aren't so lucky. Did you know Ariados's strongest Bug move is Bug Bite?

Excadrill: 110/135/60/50/65/88, Sand Force/Sand Rush/(Mold Breaker)
Staraptor: 85/120/70/50/50/100, Intimidate/(Reckless)

Now, I'm sure you're looking at these examples and saying to yourself, "This guy is only listing early-game mons that are supposed to be outclassed!" Well, these are for you. Drilbur is available shortly after the first badge in BW and just after the second in BW2. It begins immediately carrying weight with a base 85 Attack (pretty high for an NFE) and immunity to Volt Switch. Also worth noting is that they get Rock Slide at level 29 and Earthquake at level 36. The latter is their most powerful attack, and usually isn't available until very late in the game- the former gives them near-perfect coverage, missing out on only a few obscure mons like Flygon, Bronzong, and Breloom. To top it off, they then learn Swords Dance at 42- many weaker Unova mons haven't even evolved by this point.

Staraptor is even worse, being available on the very first route in Sinnoh along with almost every other route in case you decided to make a bad decision and not use it. Staraptor is blessed with Close Combat on evolution which makes it very powerful. Flying+Fighting coverage is frightening, being resisted only by Emolga, Zapdos, and Rotom. Guess how many of those you meet in Sinnoh? It also has Intimidate and U-Turn, and one of the most powerful attacks in the game in the form of Brave Bird. Did you know banded Reckless Brave Bird from Staraptor can 2HKO Lugia?

So yeah I don't think Furret and Raticate and company are underpowered for good reason. If a starling gets to be the war-build engine of death, why can't a ferret?

Farfetch'd: 52/65/55/58/62/60 Keen Eye/Inner Focus/(Defiant)

I think there's some sort of Godwin's Law for mentioning Farfetch'd in a discussion about balance, so I'm going to stop now.

[Jambo51]

I won't quote you, for length, but you raised several good points. A few of them can be resolved by tweaking movesets, like Flareon, but some Pokémon are inherently rubbish due to stats/ability/moveset combinations.

I can't speak for why GF chose to make them that way, but they did. I dunno, there's just something offensive to me about changing base stats of Pokémon species. I can live with move and ability changes though. That's just my opinion, I'm not saying what you said is wrong.

[karatekid552]

So, I just thought about this now, it's like 3 am here, but whatever :p. What if we brought back all of the old apricot pokeballs from gen II, like the heavy ball and such? In my opinion, it makes catching pokemon have that much more stategy behind it. Just an idea.

[kj3400]

Do we port the Poison (poison deals no damage in the overworld, or Pokemon can not faint from poison in the overworld) system from the newer games?
Is that what was going on in B/W? I hadn't noticed No, I like the old system. Gives you a reason to stock up on Antidotes in the beginning of the game.

Do we port the TM (never disappear) system from the newer games?
I did rather like that mechanic, but that meant you had more money to do nothing with. So, it doesn't really matter, whatever everyone else wants to do.

Do we want to use the new (combined with PokeMart) Pokemon Centers?
Not in every town. I rather liked going to a separate building for my goods. Maybe in the cities, have a one stop center, but have two buildings in less important towns.

Do we want to implement newer breeding (Masuda method, passing abilities) techniques?
I have no clue how that works. Can someone elaborate?

Do we remove the need of badges to use HM field moves?
I'm not sure on this one. The need for badges to use HM moves was pretty important to keep people from going farther than they needed to in the story in the games. But maybe if we switch the order in which badge goes for which HM, I'd be cool with that. I suppose that would mean we'd have to reconfigure the obedience levels though.

Do we port the newer EXP system?
Sure, why not.

Originally Posted by karatekid552

So, I just thought about this now, it's like 3 am here, but whatever :p. What if we brought back all of the old apricot pokeballs from gen II, like the heavy ball and such? In my opinion, it makes catching pokemon have that much more stategy behind it. Just an idea.

I liked the apricot gimmick too. Definitely should be in this game.

[FBI agent]

I know it's only been a week since anyone's posted in here, but that seems like too long :P

For those wondering, Darthatron is rigorously deciding leaders for each subsection. Current sections which are close and he's having troubles decide include:

- Story
- Mapping
- Scripting

Personally, I think he's having trouble choosing who's being ASM and Music leader too. Things you can do to help aid his decision making process is review which applications in the said sections really stood out to you.

Also, another recap of what's been confirmed:

Hack of Pokemon FireRed
Gen IV/V Pokemon (pretty much 100% voters agreed)


Once applicants have finished being screened and respective leaders are chosen, I think we can break into branches. Of course, our beloved story writing fanatics will need to make a foundation for the rest of the hack. (whether you're applied for a story writing position or not keep some notes of potential ideas you have, and be ready to share at moments notice!).

Also, we haven't discussed on a decisive means of communication. There has been several tossups between using Skype and IRC. I personally nominate voice chat, since typing can sometimes be a hassle.

TL;DR
Darthatron is making his decision, expect one soon! Don't make this thread die, and finally contribute opinions on applications to help Darth make his decision.