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  #1    
Old February 27th, 2013 (01:37 PM).
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Feminism.

What word were you thinking of?

Lots of people have varying ideas of what the word actually means. A dictionary definition calls feminism "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes," but of course a dictionary definition is only the beginning to understanding such a complex idea.

How do you feel about "political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" or equality in general? Do you consider yourself a feminist? Do you think feminism "accomplished" its goals and is no longer needed? Just talk about this (respectfully!)
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Old February 27th, 2013 (01:43 PM).
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For me Feminism is on a similar scale to Racism.
I don't have a strong view for or against the views but I do get rather annoyed when people try to use it as a defense.
You know, the kind of people that while your picking teams for sports or games or whatever and you pick a guy instead of the one last girls they say "You only picked him over me because I'm a women!" when its clear that the guy is the better player of the two choices.
Not sure if that made any sense.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (01:48 PM).
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This is such a touchy and difficult subject to talk about for me.

Personally, I consider myself feminist. However, I have a general dislike for most in-your-face girl-power feminists as I feel they take the wrong approach to it. This morning I read an article by a woman who was incredibly butthurt over Seth MacFarlane's sexist comments during the Oscars. She was whining how he was singing about boobs and other toilet humor crap that he excels in. He apparently made a remark that women nag a lot - which is exactly what the author of the article was doing. She wasn't trying to make a point, she was just nagging about his humor. Does she really think she's going to progress the feminist movement by doing exactly what men think we do?

Society doesn't realize the impact our current social structure of the sexes has on both sexes. Women can't be masculine. Yet, men can't be feminine. There are guys who can't express themselves and their emotions in a healthy way, who are just as uncomfortable with body image as women are, and have a more discriminating group to appeal to as far as gender and sexuality goes.

But, I'm a strong advocate of the whole 'women should have equal pay when they perform the same jobs as men' and all of that business. Which is why I say I'm feminist, though I think the sex equality issue is much, much bigger than that.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (02:01 PM).
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Spoiler:






Anyway.
I think people go overboard with it. In some cases, it's understandable- but I think people need to stop being butthurt over stupid stuff.

Then again, I've never paid much (if any) attention to the matter. So my opinion isn't worth much. I personally find the jokes and stereotypes directed at females to be stupid or even amusing- certainly not offensive.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (02:05 PM).
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Okay, I know i'm posting a youtube video in reply to this, (one with 6,000,000 views no less) but I think the dude makes some good points.

Spoiler:




Have at me then Dcc, but I implore you to consider this.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (02:17 PM).
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Interesting video. I wonder, what does it imply when the it claims that equality is guys treating girls like men? Also, counter to what the video says, anyone can be a feminist. It's not just for girls.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (02:20 PM). Edited February 27th, 2013 by TRIFORCE89.
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Feminism.

What word were you thinking of?
Food. I was thinking food.

Anyway, I have no problem with that definition. Political, economic, and social rights. Encompasses a bunch of stuff that makes sense. Contract law, owning property, voting, autonomy, safety, social roles, etc. All makes sense; all things should be equal.

The thing to note though is that those are all societal concepts. In law, we should be equal. Biologically they are not, on average. Should not lead to an assumption of superiority though.

As with a lot of social things, I don't mind it, may be even support it (and I do), just don't get too in my face about it or you'll annoy me. I had super feminist (super every social issue, really) teacher in high school who would go overboard and rewrite "human" to take out the "man" part out of it. I think she came up with "humyn" or something like that.

Or like some extreme PETA-types who almost seem to think an animal life is more important than a human life, I can't stand people who place one gender as being superior or more important to another. I also had a teacher in elementary school who used "smart boy" as an example of an oxymoron. Didn't like her either XD

EDIT: On the equal pay issue, I think it is a little more complex than it appears on the surface. Equal pay for equal work really applies in an environment with equal work. Something more labour or service oriented. When you look at middle managers, say. Several studies recently have shown that women tend not to ask for money. When you land a job or are being promoted, there's usually some negotiation involved. And apparently (say the studies), women tend to aim lower than men and then are also more complacent and less likely to ask for a raise than men. If that's true (and it may be, in part. I'd say the initial salary they're offered in the first place is probably lower to start with), how do you solve that?
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Old February 27th, 2013 (07:33 PM).
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Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.
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Old February 27th, 2013 (08:13 PM).
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*facedesk*

I seen this thread, wrote out a long comment about it and even threw in a wiki page and a couple other assorted links related to the usage of the word ****.

To what Skinwalker said. The thing about feminism is that it's not about equality - Afterall, you never see feminist's protesting against the biased treatment they receive in the courts.

Anyway the issue with womens vs mens pay is that it's not taking account of seperate jobs - It's just comparing the average women are paid and the average men are paid, overall, not job to job. And of course it's going to be skewed in mens favor when its calculated like this - They are the ones working in higher risk, and thus higher pay, environments.

I never confirmed this but I heard a story about a mining company. Femists supposedly raised hell about men getting paid more on average then women in the company. The owner outsourced secretarial and other bookkeeping work - All of which was done by women - and gave the women jobs in the mines. As the story goes, all the women quit when they heard that they were to begin working in the mines.

Anyway, as usual, I end this post with a picture.

Spoiler:
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Old February 28th, 2013 (07:54 AM).
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I was thinking more of swearing when it was the "F word."
Well played Scarf.

I agree with Mr X.
Gender Equality isn't going to happen. Heterosexual males are considered the lowest of priority when it comes to "issues of equality in society."
Women are treated as "special" because it is the backfire from male chauvinism that was considered normal back in the 1950s.
As there has always been hostility such as racism, sexism, anti homosexual groups they are considered that they need protecting from "savage heterosexual masculine thugs."
Yes men are developed to be fighters and protectors. It gives us physical advantages over women, but it doesn't mean we are better than them. Our differences should not separate us nor should it allow either to be given special treatment.
If a woman steps into a male environment, then she should not expect special treatment, neither should if a male steps into a female environment.
Even in nature there are clear signs of males being the protectors or hunters of the territory whilst the females may hunt or look after the babies.
It would be nice if everyone could be free from hate and abuse and have even rights when it comes to voting, employment, education etc.
There are some women that are very happy being a housewife and looking after their children whilst their husband goes out to work. Same as if a husband stays at home looking after the children whilst the woman goes out to work. But of course society may think it's odd that the man isn't "being the career man and earning the money."

I've heard the saying "It's only sexist when a man does it."
There is a difference between wanting women to be treated fairly and equally rather than trying to belittle the working man. A lot of these hardcore feminists are essentially man haters that want women to rule the world and be treated superior to these men who are "Chauvinist pigs."

Anyone regardless of race,age,gender,sexual preference,religious preference can be treated unfairly and in reality we should be looking at improving how to help one another. All of these groups which spew hate should learn to put their pitch forks down, this isn't medieval times shouting "Burn the witch" is going to get you anywhere.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (08:04 AM).
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I think feminism has accomplished all it will, really. Women have the same rights as men by and large and while they get treated differently (both worse and better) than men on occasion, that swings both ways. Really feminism as a concept is quite outdated - gender equality as a whole is what people should be putting their time into (but that's never going to come to fruition so there's not really any point anyway). The sexes get treated differently and I don't think anyone can do anything about that. Giving women rights is incredibly easy in comparison to changing established gender norms buried deep in society's collective consciousness.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (09:40 AM).
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Quote originally posted by TRIFORCE89:
EDIT: On the equal pay issue, I think it is a little more complex than it appears on the surface. Equal pay for equal work really applies in an environment with equal work. Something more labour or service oriented. When you look at middle managers, say. Several studies recently have shown that women tend not to ask for money. When you land a job or are being promoted, there's usually some negotiation involved. And apparently (say the studies), women tend to aim lower than men and then are also more complacent and less likely to ask for a raise than men. If that's true (and it may be, in part. I'd say the initial salary they're offered in the first place is probably lower to start with), how do you solve that?
I don't know how to solve that definitively, but I would think that if in general if attitudes were a little different people wouldn't assume that women are less qualified and women would be less likely ask for less and employers would be less likely to offer lower wages.

Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
Anyway the issue with womens vs mens pay is that it's not taking account of seperate jobs - It's just comparing the average women are paid and the average men are paid, overall, not job to job. And of course it's going to be skewed in mens favor when its calculated like this - They are the ones working in higher risk, and thus higher pay, environments.

I never confirmed this but I heard a story about a mining company. Femists supposedly raised hell about men getting paid more on average then women in the company. The owner outsourced secretarial and other bookkeeping work - All of which was done by women - and gave the women jobs in the mines. As the story goes, all the women quit when they heard that they were to begin working in the mines.

Anyway, as usual, I end this post with a picture.

Spoiler:
I'm curious if this image is how you personally view things or if it's how you think someone else views things.

Also, the anecdote about the mine work seems like an urban legend. No company would make office staff work in a mine.

Quote originally posted by Skinwalker213:
Feminism's goals have been long accomplished, yet there are still people claiming it didn't. Equality is never going to happen, let's face the fact that we are never going to treat both genders the same. I do, though, think that gender shouldn't play a role in professional situations such as court. Even though they aren't allowed to discriminate against a certain gender,race, etc., females get easier punishments than males.
Even if women receive more lenient punishments in court, that is only one aspect of society. Women still make less money, are much more likely to be victims of domestic abuse, and so on. Certainly we should make the courts, which is something we have more control over, fair and equal, but you'll excuse me if it seems to me a little unfair of you to point out one of the few instances where women seem to have it better and not address any of the many instances where the reverse is true.

Quote originally posted by François:
I think feminism has accomplished all it will, really. Women have the same rights as men by and large and while they get treated differently (both worse and better) than men on occasion, that swings both ways. Really feminism as a concept is quite outdated - gender equality as a whole is what people should be putting their time into (but that's never going to come to fruition so there's not really any point anyway). The sexes get treated differently and I don't think anyone can do anything about that. Giving women rights is incredibly easy in comparison to changing established gender norms buried deep in society's collective consciousness.
Reading these responses makes me really sad because you think equality isn't possible and there's no point in trying to attain it (and that you think that feminism isn't about gender equality in the first place makes me extra sad). I prefer to think that there is every possibility of equality.

I know we all come from different places, some more equal than others, and that may color how equal we think the world is, but would anyone say that feminism has already finished its job when you think about places like Afghanistan where Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head because she advocated for girls to go to school? Or that in a developed country like the USA people are trying to curtail the use of contraception?

Also, just going to drop this chart here:

Spoiler:


It's from an article that goes into the finer points of pay (un)equality by different types of work.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (11:23 AM). Edited February 28th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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Moving them from office work to the mines was because of the outsourcing - It was meant to cover the companies ass, to prevent the women from filing wrongful termination lawsuits since they lost their jobs as a result of the outcries against lower pay. It's been a while since I read this so it probably is a urban legend - But given the lack of women in these kinds of jobs, I wouldn't surprised if their was some truth in it.

The picture was meant to show the ideals of feminism - supposedly about equality - and how they applied to certain real world situations. It points out the flaws with the main reasons that feminism supposedly exists - Men treating women as sex objects or punching bags - and shows that, for all of feminisms cries of equality, in these cases the odds are stacked in favor of women.

As for the unequal pay, I've seen a example of in - at least, somewhat. Back in middle school when job shadowing I shadowed a couple people in the IT field. I asked both about their pay and the male did get paid more, about 15% (Or 20%. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact amount.). Seems like clear cut inequality right? Not really. He was being paid more because he had additional qualifications that she didn't - Both had degrees in computer sciences but he had chosen to get Comptia certifications as well. While they held the same job, he was being paid more since he was, because of the additional qualifications, worth more.

This is my main issue with most of the pay comparisons - Most don't take into account their jobs, instead just a direct comparison of their pay. The few that do account for their jobs don't take into account the persons qualifications or experience.

Edit - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200908/why-modern-feminism-is-illogical-unnecessary-and-evil

I don't agree with the entirety of this - Mainly feminism being unnecessary. In a lot of countries it is unnecessary but for certain countries in the middle east, or really any primarily Islamic country, it's necessary. Basically, to feminists in the US I'd say they are idiots. To feminists in, say, Iran I'd tell them to keep on fighting.

Edit again - Actually, scratch that. I'd support some feminist ideals in the US - mainly their right to abortions.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (11:44 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
Moving them from office work to the mines was because of the outsourcing - It was meant to cover the companies ass, to prevent the women from filing wrongful termination lawsuits since they lost their jobs as a result of the outcries against lower pay. It's been a while since I read this so it probably is a urban legend - But given the lack of women in these kinds of jobs, I wouldn't surprised if their was some truth in it.
That story then seems more like a case of what you just said - wrongful termination - rather than pay inequality. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think mining might be one of those rare fields in which there is more equality of pay though. I might be confusing that with something else though.

Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
The picture was meant to show the ideals of feminism - supposedly about equality - and how they applied to certain real world situations. It points out the flaws with the main reasons that feminism supposedly exists - Men treating women as sex objects or punching bags - and shows that, for all of feminisms cries of equality, in these cases the odds are stacked in favor of women.
That picture then looks like a strawman depiction of feminists, that is, a fake one. Not saying that instances like those don't happen, but that is not an ideal situation according to a feminist. We want things to be fair.

That said, there are inequalities in society and a woman looking at a man isn't always the same as a man looking at a woman. It can be better or worse depending on where you are. You know, like if you had a room full of men looking at a woman it wouldn't be the same as if a room full of women were looking at a man. That's not how we want things to be, but it is a reality of social attitudes and so on.

Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
As for the unequal pay, I've seen a example of in - at least, somewhat. Back in middle school when job shadowing I shadowed a couple people in the IT field. I asked both about their pay and the male did get paid more, about 15% (Or 20%. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact amount.). Seems like clear cut inequality right? Not really. He was being paid more because he had additional qualifications that she didn't - Both had degrees in computer sciences but he had chosen to get Comptia certifications as well. While they held the same job, he was being paid more since he was, because of the additional qualifications, worth more.

This is my main issue with most of the pay comparisons - Most don't take into account their jobs, instead just a direct comparison of their pay. The few that do account for their jobs don't take into account the persons qualifications or experience.
While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.

Edit: that article you added has a big flaw in that its argument is that because biologically men and women are different we can't or don't want the same things and therefore we can't compare the two. It tries to say that men making more money can't be used as evidence of inequality any more than woman having more shoes can - which is just silly because your income is a real big factor on how equal you are. Much more than shoe ownership is.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (12:19 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
That story then seems more like a case of what you just said - wrongful termination - rather than pay inequality. Now that I'm thinking about it more, I think mining might be one of those rare fields in which there is more equality of pay though. I might be confusing that with something else though.
Yes and no - Without them being given the option of a higher paid job in the company it would be. While it backed them to a wall - Either accept this higher paying job or leave - they weren't really terminated since none of them were actually fired. They refused the new jobs - The company didn't fire them.

Quote:
That picture then looks like a strawman depiction of feminists, that is, a fake one. Not saying that instances like those don't happen, but that is not an ideal situation according to a feminist. We want things to be fair.

That said, there are inequalities in society and a woman looking at a man isn't always the same as a man looking at a woman. It can be better or worse depending on where you are. You know, like if you had a room full of men looking at a woman it wouldn't be the same as if a room full of women were looking at a man. That's not how we want things to be, but it is a reality of social attitudes and so on.
It's not really a strawman - Their are a lot of cases proving certain frames right. The picture is more pointed at the extremes of feminism rather then mainstream feminism though.


Quote:
While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.
But this case wasn't about things unrelated to the job - These were additional qualifications related to the job. I suppose this case isn't really the best example though - It was the companies policy to pay more to employee's that had these certifications.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (12:59 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Reading these responses makes me really sad because you think equality isn't possible and there's no point in trying to attain it (and that you think that feminism isn't about gender equality in the first place makes me extra sad). I prefer to think that there is every possibility of equality.

I know we all come from different places, some more equal than others, and that may color how equal we think the world is, but would anyone say that feminism has already finished its job when you think about places like Afghanistan where Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head because she advocated for girls to go to school? Or that in a developed country like the USA people are trying to curtail the use of contraception?
I'm sorry, I should have made my post more clear. Feminism is about women being treated the same as men, it's viewed specifically through a female lens. Actual gender quality needs to change not only how men view women but how women view men (and how women view women and men view men). If you want gender equality you need the entire world to abandon its prejudices and that's simply never going to happen. You can convince heterosexuals that not all gay men are STD-ridden sex addicts who're going to try and get every straight man they see into bed but convincing people that men don't need to be stoic? That women don't need to be pretty and unopinionated? I don't see it.

And as for "feminism has done its job", I of course meant in the most developed parts of the world. Obviously in regions where women don't have equal rights it has its place.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (02:09 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Edit: that article you added has a big flaw in that its argument is that because biologically men and women are different we can't or don't want the same things and therefore we can't compare the two. It tries to say that men making more money can't be used as evidence of inequality any more than woman having more shoes can - which is just silly because your income is a real big factor on how equal you are. Much more than shoe ownership is.
The basis behind it is that were trying to make something equal, in every case, which can't be equal - Males and females are different and thus will have different desires. While their are certain things we can be equal in, despite biological differences, their are also certain things where, due to biological differences, we will never be equal in.

The point behind the shoes statement is simple - You can't base equality on just one variable. Extended, it's about differences in what we, as individual people, want. Case in point, some want money, some want shoes. Relating to pay, if money is your goal then your going to do whatever you can in order to get that money. If shoes are your goal, then your going to do just good enough job to keep affording new ones.

The most important point, imo, to that article though is that, despite women becoming more and more equal in pay to men, they are also becoming more and more unhappy with their lives - Feminism doesn't account for the womans happiness, just the perceived place in society women should play. And really, a persons happiness is whats really important. If money makes a person happy, great. Go make some. If shoes makes a person happy, fine. Go buy some. If 'insert X here' makes you happy, then make obtaining that your goal.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (02:27 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
While having two people with different skill sets obviously means that one is a more desirable employee in terms of hiring or promoting them, when you have two people doing the same job, having the same responsibilities, it shouldn't matter if one of them can also do a bunch of things unrelated to the job. Sure, promote the one with extra skills if the new job would be better served, but they should get paid the same. Equal pay for equal work, as they say.
Well, no. That's not correct because that's not just a male vs female thing. If two guys were there doing the same job, but one was more educated or qualified he would still be paid more. I'd have no problem if the woman was being paid more because she was more qualified or education

More relevant education (and in this case, specific certifications that can be applied to his field and the job) makes you a stronger candidate and more qualified for that job and your career overall. Why shouldn't you be rewarded for that?

Equal pay or equal work only really makes sense if you're working at McDonald's or something very "assembly line" like that.
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Old February 28th, 2013 (02:30 PM).
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Old February 28th, 2013 (02:32 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Women still make less money, are much more likely to be victims of domestic abuse, and so on.
I don't think you can really change the domestic abuse ratio. Absolutely we should try to educate people and change their perceptions in order to reduce the rate. But, men and women will never be equally likely victims because men are generally stronger. That's why four year-old don't kidnap adults. When one participant is able to overpower the other or be more threatening, it isn't a fair fight. No matter how much work we may do to fix the problem, women will always be the more likely victim of abuse than men.

Not saying we shouldn't try, because we should. But if the goal is utopia, that is never going to happen
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Old February 28th, 2013 (06:12 PM). Edited February 28th, 2013 by Toutebelle.
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I'm pretty supportive of feminism, but only forms that advocate equality between men and women. I will NEVER buy into "feminazis". To me, there's a difference between a feminist and a feminazi. A feminist is someone who wants women to be equal to men. A feminazi is someone who thinks men are inferior, who sees sexism in everything (think of the ones who took out their rage on bras by burning them), and who might even insist on saying "womyn" instead of "woman". Feminazis do not represent the feminist movement.

Overall, the US is pretty fair towards women. Our women are among the most well-educated in the world. And we have plenty of female politicians. Plus we have lots of services for abused women.

I do think we still need feminism, but this time we should try helping women in countries where there are threats to equality, like countries under the threat of Islamism. I mean, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt could render Egyptian women helpless if they don't get removed. Honor killings also need to be stopped. A lot of Muslims, both in their own countries and in Western countries, really want to solve these problems. Plenty of them hate Saudi Arabia's cruel treatment of women. I mean, the women there cannot drive - not even if there are men present in the car. Really, Saudi Arabia is the current biggest enemy of feminism. And considering how much influence they have over the Muslim world, it convinces Muslims in other countries to be sexist.

The next biggest enemy of feminism is China. I admit, I love Chinese culture and a lot of the related things, but they really need to get over their rampant misogyny. I know that Chinese people tend to be fiercely proud of their traditions even in this day and age, but that doesn't excuse the gender imbalance, and the fact that so many Chinese baby girls are abandoned while there are too many boys. The boys will be affected too - they might be fighting for spouses eventually.

At least some Third World countries have gotten better. Latin America has improved quite a bit in the past 50 years - we've had several women presidents in Latin America while the US still hasn't had one. Though they do have problems to work on. India has also made quite a bit of progress since independence, though it's sad to hear that a lot of parents there still think having girls is bad. The government is trying to address this - in one area they have helped girls whose parents named them Nakusha, or "unwanted" in Sanskrit, choose new names (I was appalled that there could be sexism in naming your daughter). Africa isn't doing too good, though at least African women are speaking out against female genital mutilation (their biggest obstacle IMO).

Even some of the more conservative European countries need feminism. Women in Italy are not well-represented in government (well, it is much better than in most Middle Eastern countries, but still a far cry from the US, the UK, Germany, and Scandinavia), and some men still have that stay-in-the-kitchen attitude towards women. Eastern Europe is even worse, what with violence against women not being reported.

Plus a lot of these countries have serious issues with prostitution. Women and even girls feel that they have no choice but to be prostitutes because they're so poor. We should try to help them too, so hopefully they can give up prostitution in favor of a healthier lifestyle.
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Old March 1st, 2013 (11:27 AM).
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Quote originally posted by François:
And as for "feminism has done its job", I of course meant in the most developed parts of the world. Obviously in regions where women don't have equal rights it has its place.
But there are parts of the "developed world" where there are still problems. Like in the US where there are pushes to restrict the use of birth control, not to mention the availability of abortion services. (Having control over your own reproduction is one of the most important freedom's a woman can have.) And then there are all the rapes and sexual assaults that happen, and how even among those that are reported (and, btw, you gotta wonder why so many aren't reported) only a fraction result in convictions.

There are places in the world that aren't as bad as the US, but even then there are problems so I'm not really seeing where the job is done.

Quote originally posted by Mr. X:
The basis behind it is that were trying to make something equal, in every case, which can't be equal - Males and females are different and thus will have different desires. While their are certain things we can be equal in, despite biological differences, their are also certain things where, due to biological differences, we will never be equal in.

The point behind the shoes statement is simple - You can't base equality on just one variable. Extended, it's about differences in what we, as individual people, want. Case in point, some want money, some want shoes. Relating to pay, if money is your goal then your going to do whatever you can in order to get that money. If shoes are your goal, then your going to do just good enough job to keep affording new ones.

The most important point, imo, to that article though is that, despite women becoming more and more equal in pay to men, they are also becoming more and more unhappy with their lives - Feminism doesn't account for the womans happiness, just the perceived place in society women should play. And really, a persons happiness is whats really important. If money makes a person happy, great. Go make some. If shoes makes a person happy, fine. Go buy some. If 'insert X here' makes you happy, then make obtaining that your goal.
I, and I'm sure others, are not basing equality on just income. That's just one piece of the puzzle. A big piece, but not the whole picture. I mean, very few people out there are just concerned with money. People want comfort, friendship, family, luxury, a sense of purpose, etc. etc. Money is the grease that makes many of those things happen. Gotta have money to have a family, to be comfortable, and even to have shoes. I'm sure if the average man bought as many shoes as the average woman the men would still have more money.

And I don't buy the implication that equality/feminism/etc. is making women unhappy. At least not in the sense that the article implies, which is that if women went back to how things were 35 years ago they would be happy. The article implies it's women's fault for their unhappiness because they want to make money and be equal. The problem is really how anyone, man or woman, who wants to make money is going to be more unhappy because of work pressures, etc. It's about how you need to have money to survive today, and how any family that's trying to raise kids just can't do it like could be done in the past when one parent worked and the other raised kids. Today even two parents working is barely enough and that leaves no one to raise the kids.

Quote originally posted by TRIFORCE89:
Well, no. That's not correct because that's not just a male vs female thing. If two guys were there doing the same job, but one was more educated or qualified he would still be paid more. I'd have no problem if the woman was being paid more because she was more qualified or education

More relevant education (and in this case, specific certifications that can be applied to his field and the job) makes you a stronger candidate and more qualified for that job and your career overall. Why shouldn't you be rewarded for that?

Equal pay or equal work only really makes sense if you're working at McDonald's or something very "assembly line" like that.
What I'm saying is, let's say you have people working in an office doing data entry or whatever. If all the employees do around the same amount of data each day they should all be paid the same. Even if one of them speaks 5 languages and can program, skills which could certainly be useful in their field, if that's not part of their actual job it shouldn't give them a higher pay rate. Now if it meant they did more work in the same time, or more difficult work that others would take a lot longer to do, then that's not equal work and it makes sense for that person to get paid more.
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Old March 1st, 2013 (04:43 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
What I'm saying is, let's say you have people working in an office doing data entry or whatever. If all the employees do around the same amount of data each day they should all be paid the same. Even if one of them speaks 5 languages and can program, skills which could certainly be useful in their field, if that's not part of their actual job it shouldn't give them a higher pay rate. Now if it meant they did more work in the same time, or more difficult work that others would take a lot longer to do, then that's not equal work and it makes sense for that person to get paid more.
That's correct. Because that job you described fits under my assembly line umbrella. That's hired labour.

Anyway, enough of that. I don't want to sidetrack this topic
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Old March 1st, 2013 (06:25 PM).
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lol @ everyone saying "feminism has reached what it accomplished" when lots of cases of sexual assault aren't taking seriously in the court system. shame on all of you tbh.

e: In an effort to give my post some more substance I proudly identify as a feminist because I respect the women in my life and therefor respect all women. It's honestly that simple.
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Old March 1st, 2013 (06:42 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
And I don't buy the implication that equality/feminism/etc. is making women unhappy. At least not in the sense that the article implies, which is that if women went back to how things were 35 years ago they would be happy. The article implies it's women's fault for their unhappiness because they want to make money and be equal.
Indeed. I've never accepted that argument. Really just blind nostalgia. Nostalgia that I just don't subscribe to. I may watch some clip of an old timey show from some of those "top TV shows ever" things that run on TV from time to time. And how subservient women are in those roles in those shows are just bizarre to comprehend today.

Another one that irked me was those Jacqueline Kennedy interviews that surfaced a few years back. She clearly loved her husband, but she mentioned so much about permission and fearing what he would think and letting him "misbehave" because its what he wants. And just him him him. Never her. She was never first or equal. It was weird. Especially coming from her since we kind of look at her today as this feminist role model.
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