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  #1    
Old March 24th, 2013 (04:28 PM).
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Idk if there's a debate for this or not, I didn't see one.

Guns, guns, guns, guns, guns. Do you guys believe guns should be illegalized or do you believe we should have the right to have them and carry them concealed for our safety? Do you believe guns kill people or do you believe the person with the guns kill people? Debate all you want about guns all you want, soon enough you shall get my take on it.
  #2    
Old March 24th, 2013 (06:18 PM). Edited March 24th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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I'm going to stay out of this, for now, but this comic sums up the though processes of some of the most vocal gun supporters.



Edit - One comment for now. Some gun supporters say that it's the second amendment that makes all the others possible. Never has a revolution started with guns - Revolution always starts with a person speaking up against injustices. Revolution has always started with a person, speaking of new ideals. Martin Luther King didn't say to arm yourself in a attempt to get rights - He spoke of peaceful protests, that is, protests without the use of force. Women, when wanting the right to vote, didn't arm themselves and begin preparations for a violent fight - They used their first amendment rights to speak out about their desire for this right, they used their first amendment rights to say why they deserved the right to vote. The religious groups didn't arm themselves to fight for prohibition - They used the rights granted to them by the first amendment.

The 2nd has never been the driving force for new amendments. It has always been the first, not the second, that made the amendments possible.
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  #3    
Old March 24th, 2013 (06:44 PM).
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So you're all for stricter gun laws?

Here's my take on it.

Here is my honest take on it.

All you have to do is look at the crimes that are being committed with firearms in cities like Boston, New York, Chicago, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles. They have some of the strictest firearms laws in the country, and yet they also have some of the highest crime rates in the country. Figure it out.

In the 1920s a ban on Tommy Guns was proposed. It did not reduce the crime rate. Criminals were able to gain possession of these assault-type weapons. People that choose to do harm will find other ways if they do not have a firearm. The founders of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights wrote the Second Amendment to protect civil liberties.

Due to the United States, China, and Russia selling millions of firearms to countries involved in civil wars, there is an extensive black market that will never go away. There is an estimated 500,000 fully automatic AK47s on the black market at any given time. The average cost of one of these rifles in Honduras
is $400 USD. Guns have surpassed illicit drugs as an export from Colombia. Thinking that banning law abiding citizens from owning guns while
leaving our borders open to cartels and terrorist cells is absolutely ludicrous.

Criminals will always have guns and other weapons. Politicians are clueless to real life, they have bodyguards and other security measures. Criminals have always had weapons, illegal weapons including EVERY form of gun. Politicians would, if allowed, go door to door confiscating legal law abiding citizens guns, but notice they would never go door to door looking for criminals and their illegal weapons. Politicians and Hollywood are hypocritical liars. The Second Amendment was made to protect America from what government is doing now. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are very clear, and politicians are in violation of their oaths, they are basically traitors. Having guns is not a privilege, it is a God given right as an American.

Plain and simple, it's a tool, just like a knife or a baseball bat etc. Stop blaming guns for the actions of stupid people. If the government seizes the public's guns we have no way of fighting back when this government turns to tyranny. Open your eyes, and get Obama out of power. It doesn't end there; arrest the bankers who run this country and give the republic back to the people for which many Americans fought and died. This is America, not Great Britain or China. Open your eyes before it's to late. Crime happens and will continue to happen regardless of laws put into place. I love this country, but I don't care for the government, especially the leaders of it. This isn't your country to make these decisions, and to Obama all I can say is good luck!

If you illegalize guns might of well ban cars as well. It's the same thing. Drunk driver gets in a car and kills a family, the car nor the alcohol is responsible. The person driving the car is responsible, he didn't have to get in the car to kill them. The car didn't kill him nor did the alcohol kill him if he wouldn't of drove it he wouldn't of killed them simple as that. A gun's trigger doesn't go off on it's own, the person with the gun's finger pulls the trigger.

Population has nothing to do with it. It's the way the laws are set up, up there. There's more people in NYC than Chicago and there's more people in LA than Chicago. But yet Chicago out of all of those has the highest body count. That's cuz Chicago has the strictest gun laws. If those cities didn't have strict gun laws like they do I bet crime wouldn't be as high. It puts citizens in danger. Gangs breaking into houses with guns, the people who live there don't have guns so they can't protect themselves instead the gangs shoot them up cuz the people know what they were doing.

A normal citizen with a gun isn't a problem but criminals with them are. What I mean by criminals are mobs, cartels, mafia's, gangs, etc. They have access to any gun in the industry where we don't. All we got are pistols, rifles, and shotguns. They got fully automatic assault rifles but illegally. They kill people in those cities cuz they know they're helpless and can't fight back. Go to Kansas City bro, that's where I used to live. There's a lot of gangs but those mother****ers know not to do shoot ups in some area's cuz the gun laws aren't strict. The ghetto is where the crime is down there. In Chicago, there's nowhere safe cuz gangs are everywhere. They're there cuz they're the only one with guns and cops don't even wanna mess with them. I wouldn't **** with the Latin Kings either and most of them are illegal.

I live in Chicago and own a gun but that doesn't mean I'm a criminal. I have it for my protection. I have not yet pull it out on someone or threaten to aim it at someone. I have my gun with me at all times, you just never know.

tl;dr. Gun's don't kill people, if illegalized only criminals will have guns. The crime would not go down, people don't realize criminals get access to guns very easily. Criminals don't get them at gun stores. They get them from smugglers.

Believe me, I know what's going on.
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  #4    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:04 PM). Edited March 24th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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So, making them illegal for general purchase only makes it easier for criminals to get them?

Does this mean that you would support the repeal of the federal and state laws that prohibit convicted felons from buying and owning firearms?

Edit - Speaking of China, on the same day that Adam Lanza used guns to shoot up a school, a Chinese man attacked 22 school children with a knife. End result? Adam Lanza, using guns, killed 26 people - Mostly children. This chinese man, despite stabbing 22 children with a knife, didn't kill a single child.
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  #5    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:06 PM).
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You didn't read my post obviously. I'm all for keeping guns legal. I suggest re reading it and studying it.
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  #6    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:13 PM).
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The basic point to your post was that it doesn't matter if it's illegal for them to buy or own weapons - Criminals are going to get them no matter what the laws say.

I'll ask again - Would you support the repeal of federal and state laws prohibiting felons from buying and owning weapons, as these laws are (by your own logic) completely ineffective?
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  #7    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:16 PM).
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Idk what your asking cuz regardless criminals will get guns. Ever heard of smuggling weapons? That's how gangs get a lot of the guns they have anyways. If guns are illegal criminals will only have them and will continue to get them. We don't need gun stores to get guns. If only criminals have guns that puts us in danger. If you don't see my argument about this topic then you're blind and brainwashed MAJORLY.
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  #8    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:19 PM).
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I'll ask again - Would you support the repeal of federal and state laws prohibiting felons from buying and owning weapons, as these laws are (by your own logic) completely ineffective?

You entire point is that gun laws have no effect at all on criminals getting weapons.

It's a yes or no question.

I can assure you - I'm not blind or brainwashed. But still, if your of such a open mind then you should have no problems answering this simple question.
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  #9    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:26 PM).
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Here's a yes or no question. Are you against guns; yes or no?

I don't believe people that have been incarcerated in federal prison should own a gun but that doesn't stop them. If a criminal get's imprisoned for gun violence and get's out he shouldn't have a gun for obvious reasons but he will anyways. I also believe people with mental issues and that are psychopaths shouldn't have them as well. I don't believe just anyone should have a gun but banning them will not fix any problems. Crime will not go down, it will not do anything.
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  #10    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:33 PM). Edited March 24th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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No, I am not against guns. Happy?

I'll explain why you are refusing to give a straight answer to my question though.

If you answer yes, then this means that you support making it even easier for criminals to obtain weapons. If you answer no then it means that, for all your comments about gun laws not effecting criminals, you do believe that these laws will make it harder for a criminal to obtain guns.

This question is the enemy of the 'gun laws have no affect of criminals' logic - Because either answer shows that gun laws do effect how easy it is for a criminal to obtain a weapon.
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  #11    
Old March 24th, 2013 (07:43 PM).
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I explained everything in my second post. All I'm saying is that stricter gun laws put is in more danger that's all. Not anyone in Chicago can get a gun, carry permits are nonexistent so there's nowhere to buy guns. I already had a gun because I lived in MO so it wasn't illegal to get one. Chicago has the strictest gun laws and highest body count. Hmm, I wonder why. I also said gun's don't kill people, the person with the gun kills no need to argue here and we haven't. Criminals that have been incarcerated shouldn't have guns. Oklahoma's gun laws are lax but strict on people that have committed crimes and for the most part I agree with them. Guess what? They're gun violence is lower even tho they're populated with crips and stuff. The crips down there are nowhere near as dangerous as the ones in the west coast. Also stated criminals will get them regardless, nothing will stop them from getting them. Marijuana's illegal but we still smoke it, underaged drinkings still illegal but they still drink. Drunk driving is illegal but they still drive drunk. It's no different. But illegalizing guns will fuse a problem.
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  #12    
Old March 24th, 2013 (08:00 PM).
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If stricter gun laws put us in more danger, then loosening gun laws will make us safer. However this has two sides - While it makes it easier for the average person to get a gun, it also makes it easier for those with less then good intentions to obtain weapons as well. Also, because it increases the amount of guns on the market, it also increases the amount of weapons that find their way to the black market and thus into the hands of criminals.

You are ignoring one thing though, the purpose behind laws. Laws will never stop all of a certian action from being preformed - But it will significantly limit how often it occurs.
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  #13    
Old March 24th, 2013 (08:02 PM).
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Explain gun violence in Chicago then. Strictest gun laws in all of US but highest body count.
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  #14    
Old March 24th, 2013 (08:23 PM).
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http://www.newgeography.com/content/003456-why-are-there-so-many-murders-chicago
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Old March 24th, 2013 (09:16 PM).
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ShinyUmbreon189, criminals are criminals for a reason, yes. They clearly won't obey the law. But, by that logic... why have any laws? Murder is against the law, but it sure isn't preventing people from killing each other.

What restrictions do is prevent accidents. The mentally ill aren't criminals, technically, although they may commit crimes. They go for what's easiest to get. You make the gun harder to get and they go for the next best thing - which does far less damage.
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  #16    
Old March 24th, 2013 (09:30 PM). Edited March 24th, 2013 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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I'm sorry dude gangs in Chicago, LA, NYC, Boston, etc don't roll without heat. They always got that shiny piece on them. Yea other people may get guns or whatever they can get they're hands on but they roll with GUNS making them more powerful than anyone. Chicago's political views are so far out they could orbit the universe and go around for a second orbit and they're majorly corrupt. Illegal immigration is out of control up here, screw Cali Illinois is where the illegals go for some reason even tho it's way up north in the US. When they come they smuggle guns with them. The Latin Kings run the city for numerous reasons.

1. The police force doesn't have anything to do with them and are way out populated by them.

2. The Latin Kings are allies with the bloods in other states and the Vice Lords in Chicago as they're main allies. Which are MAJOR gangs and are in control of hard drug trafficking just like the Latin Kings.

3. They control the drug/gun trafficking from Mexico and is the largest Hispanic gang for a reason. They did form in Chicago for a reason as well.

4. Any money they get from drugs, weapons, etc are shared with the US govt. and the govt. supplies them with firearms as well. America has sold illegal guns to Mexico and it was on the news awhile back.

The crimes so high because it's the main gun and drug trafficking city in the US but that's not all. They kill innocents just to kill them because they're paranoid the law's after them when the law knows what they're doing. They're not doing anything about it because they're making profit from these gangs. Think about it, if the govt. really wanted to they could wipe out every gang member in the US if they wanted to but they wont. Our govt. makes money off of them and the gangs make money off of the govt. Corrupt? Yes, but it's just the say it is. The gun laws are this strict up here for a reason, corruption.

I'm not just saying this just cuz, I'm saying it because I live in the city and I know what's going on every single day up here. I don't go all stealthy and try to get in they're territory but I know what our govt. and gangs are up to. It's blatant but they're not giving us the real statement.
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Old March 24th, 2013 (10:22 PM).
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No offense ShinyUmbreon189 but you kind of ran off the rails for a moment, so lets do this again, yeah?

Quote originally posted by ShinyUmbreon189:
Guns, guns, guns, guns, guns. Do you guys believe guns should be illegalized or do you believe we should have the right to have them and carry them concealed for our safety? Do you believe guns kill people or do you believe the person with the guns kill people? Debate all you want about guns all you want, soon enough you shall get my take on it.
To start off, I'm going to say I believe stricter gun laws are needed. Not complete outlaw but make it harder for people to get their hands on them legally. I have family that have concealed weapons permits and I know I'm safe around them but I don't want to have to be in a room with a bunch of people who have them and someone actually try to kill people cause bullets will be flying EVERYWHERE.

While I do believe people kill people I still think we should try to make it harder for people to get the guns (look at the first part to see where this is going).
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  #18    
Old March 24th, 2013 (10:31 PM). Edited March 24th, 2013 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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In Chicago a carry permit is NON EXISTENT. What part of that don't you understand??? It's ridiculously hard to get a gun down here, that's if your a normal citizen. Down here, only criminals have them as the most part. Some have them for protection like myself I'm from Missouri and that's how I got my guns, I brought them down here. I don't know how long it's gonna take to get you guys to understand that, they're already hard to get even tho they're outlawed. Chicago has the strictest gun laws and I've said this 10 times and the gun violence is off the charts AND THEY'RE DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO GET. THEY'RE ILLEGAL!!! Once again THEY'RE OUTLAWED BUT STILL HAVE HIGH GUN VIOLENCE AND THEY'RE ILLEGAL TO PURCHASE OR OWN DOWN HERE! So all 3 or you're guy's arguments makes ZERO sense and are INVALID. If the guns weren't outlawed down here it would be different but they're not.
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  #19    
Old March 24th, 2013 (11:52 PM).
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Just because crime is high doesn't mean our arguments are invalid. That is like saying just because there is crime, government/police/law/religion is invalid. The first three because they're suppose to help the citizens (lets not get into the specifics of "help" when it comes to them though) and the last because most religions preach peace and whatnot. You're jumping to a conclusion that isn't valid in itself.

You keep saying it is "DAMN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO GET" but people obviously do not have trouble finding these guns (or they could do like you did and just bring them with "down here"). Just because the gun laws are suppose to be strict doesn't mean people aren't going to find a way to get guns as there are always ways to get something illegally. I know you're doing a correlation between crime and gun laws but that pretty much gets skewed horribly when you throw in illegal gun sells. What it seems like you're saying is that we don't need gun laws (or at least stricter ones) because crime is so bad but wouldn't (or shouldn't) it be an incentive to try and enforce said laws more thoroughly? Sorry if I'm not understanding everything but that's how I'm seeing your argument.
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Old March 25th, 2013 (05:28 AM).
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Quote originally posted by ShinyUmbreon189:
Are you brain dead? I said on numerous occasions that criminals have the guns. Did I not say this? Criminals as in gangs... So it's hard for them to get guns? Yea, them getting a gun is like taking candy from a baby.
But I don't think anyone's pretending that gun control would prevent actual criminals from obtaining guns.

Canada and the U.K. have gun control. Gangs still have guns and they still end up dead on the streets from time to time. But, accidents happen much less often. Mass shootings happen much less often.
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Old March 25th, 2013 (05:50 AM).
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Quote originally posted by ShinyUmbreon189:
Are you brain dead? I said on numerous occasions that criminals have the guns. Did I not say this? Criminals as in gangs... So it's hard for them to get guns? Yea, them getting a gun is like taking candy from a baby. Gangs in America fight over guns to get the guns. If they were banned, it would still happen. Guns would get smuggled here by Russia, Saudia Arabia, China, Africa, Mexico, etc anyways. You can't control guns. The only way you can control them is if you go to every single house and search every square millimeter of the perimeter and still wouldn't confiscate them all which is why your argument makes no sense. Make them harder to get, what happens? The same **** that always happens. Russia fills crates up with guns and smuggles them here to sell, the black market is a business dude, it's not fantasy **** that I just made up to back my statement up. It's very real.
Okay, first of all, I'm going to say this so you get it clearly:

I know criminal have guns!

I know this and you don't have to keep saying it. Just because they have guns does not mean every argument for gun control is wrong and you seem to take it personally. Calm down.

I'm also going to say that you keep bringing up Chicago and gangs. If this thread was suppose to be a 'Guns in Chicago and Gangs' thread then I'm sorry for even jumping into it without know because I thought it was a very nonspecific gun control thread.


Lastly, I bolded that part because I want to say this: If people seriously want something, not even the law will stop them. Having stricter gun laws will not affect them at all. I get this and want to say it before you go on and insult me again while repeating it like a mantra. People who want stricter gun laws (at least some of us) know it will not affect them unless they get caught. The gun laws are suppose to try to deter others who may want to cause harm later on.
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Old March 25th, 2013 (07:56 AM).
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No name-calling, please. Stay civil.

And take into account that the US, by constitutional default, have some of the laxest gun control laws in the world, so the States with "strict controls" have incredibly lax controls in comparison with any other civilized country you can name. So comparing laws between US states is like comparing someone who eat 50 burgers a day with someone who only eats 25 and saying their eating habits are much healthier. Just dropping that out.

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What in the name of Mew is that supposed to mean.
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  #23    
Old March 25th, 2013 (10:09 AM). Edited March 25th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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If gun laws don't effect criminals, then does this mean we should overturn the laws that prohibit felons from buying and owning weapons?

Afterall - These laws aren't going to affect them, since they will get guns no matter what the laws say, so what purpose does the law serve?
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Old March 25th, 2013 (10:43 AM).
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I'm against guns. They kill people. I'm against killing people. (I'm also against killing animals but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.)

Guns are much more likely to kill an innocent person than anyone else. It's very rare for a person to fight off a mugger or burglar or kidnapper or rapist or whatever with a gun. It's still fairly rare for people to accidentally shoot themselves or a family member or friend, but still much more likely than the other scenario.

Regarding Went's burger analogy, I still think it's useful to compare one state to another inasmuch as the "weakest link" idea goes. The weakest link being the state with the laxest laws since you can live in a place with strict laws, but you only have to go to the next state over to get a gun that you couldn't get where you live. (We really need uniform gun laws here.)
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Old March 25th, 2013 (01:39 PM). Edited March 25th, 2013 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
I'm against guns. They kill people. I'm against killing people. (I'm also against killing animals but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.)
Please enlighten me on how guns kill people? I really wanna know your reasoning. News flash, guns don't kill people, people kill people. If guns didn't exist there are ways to kill a man even with your bare hands so does that mean hands kill people as well? My point is, if a killer wants to kill they will kill simple as that. A killer don't need a gun to kill someone and leave them in the obituary, a gun may not even be necessary it's just a faster route to kill someone that's all.

If guns kill people then I can grab my Glock 19 that's in my glove box right now in my car, set it in my passenger seat and walk away and it will grow 2 little feet, open the door that's locked, walk outside and kill someone on the sidewalk? Keep dreaming, a gun is not capable of killing someone unless the use pulls the trigger. Guns even got safety locks to prevent accidental deaths from happening. If you have children then buy a safe to lock it up so they can't get to it. There is no reasoning to even saying a gun kills people because that makes you sound very ignorant.

Yes people kill animals with guns but some people kill animals to eat, let me guess your a vegetarian right? It's not like humans are running out and killing every animal they see. Camping, a bear comes and try's to attack you, you would wish you had a gun on you because it may be the only thing that saves your life. Gun's are in no way bad but they aren't necessarily good in the wrong hands. Some people especially criminals use them for all the wrong reasons, and in the hands of the wrong person the gun can become very dangerous. But it's not the gun, it's the person and his mentally ill and delusional mindset.

Guns for protection, I have no issue at all. As I said before, I have 3 guns a Glock 19, .22 pistol, and a .9mm pistol. Not once have I aimed it at a human, threatened or even thought of aiming it at a human. I'm completely mentally stable to have a gun, I wont go on a rampage with a gun, I have it solely for protection at all. But I guess I'm a bad person because I own guns correct and guns kill people correct?. Well, guess I'm a killer then.

Quote:
Guns are much more likely to kill an innocent person than anyone else. It's very rare for a person to fight off a mugger or burglar or kidnapper or rapist or whatever with a gun. It's still fairly rare for people to accidentally shoot themselves or a family member or friend, but still much more likely than the other scenario.
Your point behind this? Guns have safety locks for a reason, they don't just unlock on they're own. When I show family and friends my pistols I LOCK IT and take the clip out. Making it IMPOSSIBLE to shoot. A gun can't shoot when it's locked and can't shoot without a clip in it, and damn sure don't shoot on it's own.

I'm sorry, but if I saw my mom or sister getting raped I'd kill the bastard simple as that. If someone broke into my house to rob me, I'd kill the bastard because chances are if they see me they're killin me because they too have guns, and if someone tried to kidnap me I'd kill them. All of those situations are valid reasons to kill someone, and it's protecting yourself and other around me. I'm not taking a knife to a gunfight.

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Regarding Went's burger analogy, I still think it's useful to compare one state to another inasmuch as the "weakest link" idea goes. The weakest link being the state with the laxest laws since you can live in a place with strict laws, but you only have to go to the next state over to get a gun that you couldn't get where you live. (We really need uniform gun laws here.)
Yes Illinois's gun laws are very very strict, you can have one in your home but it has to be unloaded which I disagree with. If you bet caught with the gun outside your home it's a min of 10 years in prison which I disagree with. Politicians can have guns up here but we can't? Little hypocritical if you ask me. I grew up in Missouri and lived there most of my life and plan on moving back. When I moved to Illinois I already had all my guns in the first place, it wasn't my idea to move up here. So technically I didn't get them illegally because I already had them from the beginning. But yes, you can live in a state with strict gun laws and go to a state to get one that's lax but that doesn't make you a criminal. There's just some laws that I don't agree with, I carry a gun on me almost everywhere that I go because you never know when that time will come in Chicago, not saying it will but you never know. I'd rather be prepared than not be prepared.

There's shootings in gas stations, Walmart, pet stores, everywhere up here.

Here's to you guys that think guns kill people analogy.

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