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  #176    
Old April 25th, 2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
Most backpacks are pretty similar?

WRONG.

Evidence:
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2013...a-photo-essay/
Sorry, I don't care to read through all of that without some assurance there is evidence there and not speculation. Could you point to where exactly your evidence is on the website you provided? Or at least give me your summary of it so that I can have that in mind if I care to look into it further? I must say though that I'm pretty skeptical of the conclusions of anyone without access to the actually physical evidence (that is, access to the space itself and being able to make their own photos and measurements and all of that). The online evidence is necessarily incomplete and that makes me very wary about accepting any conclusion based on armchair detectives.
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  #177    
Old April 25th, 2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
*Knocks on your door followed by screams, you open.*

*A loaded assault rifle is pointed at your face*

OUT OF THE HOUSE! NOW!
HANDS UP! MOVE, GO GO GO!

*Officers storm your house and take your family outside by gunpoint*

You can't leave the house; and if you're out, you can't go in. You can get arrested for any reason, many were because they were walking in the wrong areas. Your property is momentarily seized as you, horrified, come to the realization that nothing you 'own' is really yours, when those in power have the authority to do as they please with you and all you have.

It probably isn't a big deal, you say? Oh, it's for national security?
Keep sleeping and pay your taxes, prisoner.
You don't get arrested for any reason. What fantasy land are you living in? That's not how things worse no matter how much you may think that's true.

You can leave your house. The guy who found the suspect, left his house and went outside and found him the boat. And if you leave your house why wouldn't you be able to enter it again? Did you lock yourself out? The government doesn't control your door locks O_o

Property wasn't seized. They didn't even look through drawers and cupboards.

You bring up some example of abuse, and I won't doubt you as I have no way of proving it wrong 100%. But, I'd say that if that happened there's more to it than that article is letting on. Like maybe the home owner was threatening or hostile? Beyond that though, just as you come across that example I've come across examples where the family was in the house going about their business as the officials investigated.

And, where I live we recently had a bug infestation that was damaging trees. We'd receive a short phone call or a little message taped to our front door saying that someone will be in our backyard that day or week to see if we had infected trees, so don't be alarmed. It isn't unusual.

Still not seeing what the point would be if this was all some kind of cover up. What did the government gain? They just felt like doing it for fun? There's a key part of your puzzle here that you're not sharing
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  #178    
Old April 25th, 2013, 04:20 PM
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I was going to come here to post a long explaination, spelling it out plain for you but, know what, nevermind. I give up.

Scarf, I never called any of you stupid, as I know full well that at least some of you are intelligent.
I was telling you to continue thinking, thinking is the difference between being human, and puppet.

For those of you saying that the government would be incapable of keeping secrets, and telling lies:
"No matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as the truth." - John F. Kennedy
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  #179    
Old April 25th, 2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Went View Post
We are not "afraid" that "our whole lives" were based on lies. We don't think that the Government "always says the absolute truth". There is a loooooooooooooooot of different colours and shades between "sheep" and "berated idiots".

I can't speak for everybody in here who supports the official version, but in my case this is what I think:
-First of all, the Government is not a magical alien thing full of inhuman beings. In a democratic country, specially one with a complex system of checks and balances as the US, Governments are supposed to be composed of normal people which can be elected and dismissed every few years. There certainly are corrupt Governments out there who lie and manipulate for their lives, as a way of controlling population, in places without any citizen supervision. The US though, has a powerful legislative and a heavily inquisitorial media who would eat them alive if caught lying (see: Nixon, Clinton, Bush).

In other words, I can believe that there can be corrupt officials, or that every politican will try to paint their actions in the best light to get their points across or just to be reelected. But that's human nature, and that's why we can vote them out if we feel they are too human.

What I just cannot understand though, is the idea that the Government is part of a crazy millenial plot orchestrated by some mysterious people in charge of everything and who are behind everything that happens. Mostly because you can't keep such a ridiculously complex plot going on indefinitely. Quoting Lincoln: "It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".

tl;dr: If a Government lied to us all the time, we'd end up finding out and voting their asses out of our way. Nixon demonstrated.

- Second: trust. It is bad to blindly believe everything you are told is true all the time; it is equally as bad to blindly believe everything you are told is false all the time.

As human beings, we deposit trust on other people. You go to a doctor who has studied a career in medicine because you trust he'll know about your illness, you go to a lawyer who has an official degree because you think he'll advice you properly, you go to a restaurant people have recommended because you trust X people won't be too wrong about your tastes. In this case, people will trust investigators with investigating cases and their elected officials with managing politics.

It's true that some people will not go to doctors because they believe in Chinese energy therapies, will reject lawyers as they believe they'll try to undermine them instead and won't go to any restaurants in fear of being poisoned or will believe a random guy on the interwebz who claims to know the truth instead of a police speakperson, but most people will "put their defenses down" and generally give trust to people until they break it. It's not a matter of "brainwashing", just of human nature. We live in societies, we can't be wary of everybody all the time. It's not healthy.

So now let's go into the actual case. I saw:

- A fairly large, chaotic and complex situation that would have required from insane coordination if it was an act, but would have been perfectly natural if it had just been what it looks like, a situation of chaos.
- Policemen and investigators, who are supposed to investigate, conducting an investigation and arriving to some results. Since I haven't followed their logic, I can't be sure they arrested the right people, and I know they have made mistakes very, very often in the past, so I won't just accept everything they say. But then the suspects happen to be included in a terrorist watchlist since 2011, attack policemen, do nothing to clear their names, and even accept their involvement. Since I don't know exactly how the investigation was developed but there were lost of people watching and reporting live, several witnesses to the interrogations, etc, I'm inclined to believe them.

-In turn, I see people resorting to undated ("naked suspect", which could have been taken in 2008 for all we know), partial ("unharmed suspect", where we can only see a side), blurry pictures (virtually all of them), some of them openly manipulated (see: picture of the Sandy Hook principal, which is photoshopped), misjudged ("Army Lt."), etc., and my opinion is: "Oh, look, people already made a picture of an "Evulz Guvmint Lie" and are looking everywhere for any small detail they can twist into serving their narrative". Most of all, all reasons seem to be designed from the basis that everything was a lie. This is not a logical sequence of pictures, details and all assembled in a way to open the possibility of a cover up; it's a bunch of pictured assembled from the basis that everything was a lie and therefore there must be errors somewhere.

- Then, there is Occam's Razor: the easiest explanation for anything is usually the correct one. There is no saying which is easier: two crazies setting off two bombs for ideological reasons or thousands of people staging an evil plot for some reason.

- Furthermore, there is no real explanation for this. The "declaring martial law" thing would be okay except no martial law has been declared anywhere that I know of and "turing the US into a dictatorship" has the small problem of being illegal and unconstitutional, meaning any lowly district judge from Alabama has the power to overturn that declaration, the Congress can impeach him and the political pressure from everywhere would be barely bearable- not to mention that would be most likely to create a civil war scenario as a huge chunk of armed people in the US are either independent or under States' jurisdiction.

Taking our gunzz? Well, again, it's unconstitutional, and if *insert number of people dead in shootings as of now* hasn't been enough of a reason for the Republicans to accept even some small gun control measures, three more people WON'T change a thing- and indeed haven't.

"Covering up" the fact that the Republican-controlled House has passed CISPA for the second time in a year? Well, that's kind of stupid as a) the House passing a law doesn't mean anything in itself, and b) the Ivulz Democratic Guvmnt does not support it and, in fact, would profit from going all "hey look, the Republicans are passing this law. Young people/internet users mostly from cities, this goes against your interests! Vote for us, we'll overturn it again!" on TV. They gain nothing from "covering it up"! And, in case you didn't hear it, it was the Democratic-held Senate that voted CISPA down less than one year ago and made that law passed by the House a worthless piece of trash paper. And the same Senate controlled by the same people is planning to do the same thing this year with the law the House just passed. And the evul leader of the Guvmint, Obama, has vowed to veto that law since, you know, without his signature, any law is a worthless piece of trash paper.

So we have a extraordinarly intrincate plot, that would require thousands of people from several agencies, the army, the police, the administration, you name it, being "in the know" and not telling anybody; and instead making stupid mistakes as "not feeding the right info to TV's" or "allowing witnesses to see the truth" and even take pictures of it, which sounds incredibly amateurish for such a complex plot.

And we don't know any logical reason why the Government would do that when they already have enough power of their own, and their actions do not follow the sinister "martial law coming any day now!!" theories, which have been said a million times with no martial law having been declared yet.

In the 30's, the German Parliament caught fire and Hitler took the chance to blame a communist, send all communists MP's to jail or just kill them, and illegalize the party, reducing the amount of votes he'd need to pass a law declaring himself dictator, as it finally happened once he managed to get rid of enough opposition MP's. I can understand conspiracy theories arising then as the Government had a very good reason to do so, profited handsomely from the event and was perfectly capable of pulling it off, since it only required one crazy grunt and the Nazi Party had thousands of those at their disposal. But here? I don't see any way in which a conspiracy theory would make sense other than the general mindset of "the Government is always evil and everything bad that happens must be their fault somehow". And I can't follow that logic, sorry.

Also- just saw the update. Who is that doctor anyway? A guy calling himself a doctor on the internet talking about pictures and off-hand descriptions of the event? Sounds something I wouldn't doubt a second to ignore when writing any story at work.

(Also dropping this here: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/n...show/#51653479 )
Hmm.. You won't see.

I am trying to avoid putting my opinions here as much as I can. (This is the key part of the puzzle Triforce) That's why I say it -could- be the government, and -who knows-. All I want is for you to observe the discrepancies in the videos and images and consider that it might not be as the official version says. In the end you come to your own conclusions anyways.

Don't the images show something else other than the official narrative?

Don't the blood scenes look incredibly fake?

Scarf, just see the pictures.
The older brother is wearing a white backpack, the younger is wearing a small flat black one. Both look nothing like the picture of the blown up bag. Which was quite bigger, and had a white handle.
You could say it was exactly like this one:


Triforce, research more. People were arrested and thrown out of their homes at gunpoint. Don't depend on me to spoon feed you research.

Think people, think.


Look at the latest discrepancy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3150723.html

I haven't gone over this one yet, but it says the younger brother was un-armed when hiding in the boat. It was reported before, that there was a long hour shootout during the time he was found there, and that, that was why he was wounded in his throat and leg.

Well, actually, I heard he was attempting suicide and that was why he shot himself in the throat.

Anyone clarify this?

It feels like what the Ministry of Truth did in 1984.

Last edited by Rain Dancer; April 25th, 2013 at 04:44 PM.
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  #180    
Old April 25th, 2013, 05:49 PM
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Is there any audio of gunfights happening? There was with Dorner. I was listening to the police scanner for an hour or two, and the only exchange of fire that happened while I was listening was the FBI throwing in one flashbang.

Honestly, there are so many mixed reports on this still that I wouldn't trust any of it as fact just yet.

We're seeing some say that he was planning to attack Time Square, some say he confessed and that his motive were US wars, some say he refuses to talk altogether. Some say he had and used explosives against the police, some say he was unarmed. Some say he ran over is brother, some say the police shot his brother.

I don't think any of this is the government intentionally lying to us though, it's just the media scrambling to get as much attention and money from the situation as possible, and not caring about accuracy. I mean, a lot of news sources reported that the FBI had suspects in custody before they even had suspects.

Edit: I haven't heard anything about a leg injury yet. Do we know when he was shot in the throat? Looks like most sites are saying it was a suicide attempt, but who in their right mind shoots themselves in the throat and not the head to kill themselves? Also, the police scanners never mentioned any gunfire while he was in the boat, unless it happened hours before they captured him. (Which probably doesn't mean anything, but you'd think they'd report it, since they got super uppity every time they saw him move a muscle. There was also no reports of hearing gunshots after the HRT went in. Although they probably wouldn't in that case. So, I think it seems most likely that he resisted and was shot when they tried to capture him, but who knows.)
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  #181    
Old April 25th, 2013, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo View Post
I was going to come here to post a long explaination, spelling it out plain for you but, know what, nevermind. I give up.

Scarf, I never called any of you stupid, as I know full well that at least some of you are intelligent.
I was telling you to continue thinking, thinking is the difference between being human, and puppet.

For those of you saying that the government would be incapable of keeping secrets, and telling lies:
"No matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as the truth." - John F. Kennedy
Similarly, "It's not a lie, if you believe it". - George Costanza on Seinfeld

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
Triforce, research more. People were arrested and thrown out of their homes at gunpoint. Don't depend on me to spoon feed you research.
I'm not doubting that there may have been abuses of power. No form of authority is fool-proof. However, my point is that if something did transpire I don't think it was the cops looking for kicks. The home owners may not have been cooperating or were hostile.

If they were thrown out as a result, I'd assume they were let back in afterwards. Unless they were threatening the authorities in which case they may have been held for a period of time.

You can bring up reports of misdeeds and I can bring up reports by people saying there were no problems when the police stopped by to investigate. So, neither position is true in 100% of the cases, but I think the overarching narrative and the intention is not one that lends to conspiracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
It feels like what the Ministry of Truth did in 1984.
The government can most certainly lie and hide, yes. However, don't combine information properly shared by the authorities with the jumble of "reporting" the media has been doing lately. They follow leads and report things often too early to get ahead of their competition. And in doing so you get a lot of contradicting info.
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  #182    
Old April 25th, 2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
Hmm.. You won't see.

I am trying to avoid putting my opinions here as much as I can. (This is the key part of the puzzle Triforce) That's why I say it -could- be the government, and -who knows-. All I want is for you to observe the discrepancies in the videos and images and consider that it might not be as the official version says. In the end you come to your own conclusions anyways. ;)

Don't the images show something else other than the official narrative?

Don't the blood scenes look incredibly fake?

Scarf, just see the pictures.
The older brother is wearing a white backpack, the younger is wearing a small flat black one. Both look nothing like the picture of the blown up bag. Which was quite bigger, and had a white handle.
You could say it was exactly like this one:

Triforce, research more. People were arrested and thrown out of their homes at gunpoint. Don't depend on me to spoon feed you research.

Think people, think.


Look at the latest discrepancy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3150723.html

I haven't gone over this one yet, but it says the younger brother was un-armed when hiding in the boat. It was reported before, that there was a long hour shootout during the time he was found there, and that, that was why he was wounded in his throat and leg.

Well, actually, I heard he was attempting suicide and that was why he shot himself in the throat.

Anyone clarify this?

It feels like what the Ministry of Truth did in 1984.
I'd like to know what is the "official narrative" first. And no, the jumbled "on the spot" media reports don't really count- otherwise we have the "omg they brought down Building 7 in 9/11 because the BBC reported it a bit before it did collapse- it's not like the fir dept. told the reporters it was about to go down and they assumed it already did- it was a conspiracy!!".

I want to hear the official reports from official sources (you know, the Government), and then we'll study it. But it's very easy to find "errors" and "gaps" in the narrative when there isn't a narrative going on, just journalists trying to tell whatever they hear as soon as possible.

And nobody is saying that "the Government never ever ever lies and they always ever say the truth". NOBODY is saying that. We only say that we don't have reasons to believe that "the Government lies by default".

You talk about "the official narrative". Well, I'm eager to listen to yours. What did actually happen? Why? Who did it? How did they do it? Put evidences on it. And the "people held at gunpoint? Did anybody else report it- otehr than Alex Jones, I mean?

The only narrative I see from the other side is a bunch of pushing "research! see! it's obvious!", and you non-obvious images that don't show anything (the bag looks ripped off and with its insides out- hence the white and since we don't have access to the bag we can never be sure of it- that's why home investigations don't work) or, rather, show anything you want them to. But when you show X random images to people and you say "Look, it's so obvious" and people say "Well, I don't understand what you mean- at all", maybe they aren't that obvious. Not to mention the rest of the narrative fails. An false attack to impose martial law and seize property? Well, how much property did they take over in the little-under-24-hours the """martial law""" was in order? Geez, they could have kept the suspect "missing" to keep martial law going on indefinitely!
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  #183    
Old April 28th, 2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QuilavaKing View Post
Edit: I haven't heard anything about a leg injury yet. Do we know when he was shot in the throat? Looks like most sites are saying it was a suicide attempt, but who in their right mind shoots themselves in the throat and not the head to kill themselves? Also, the police scanners never mentioned any gunfire while he was in the boat, unless it happened hours before they captured him. (Which probably doesn't mean anything, but you'd think they'd report it, since they got super uppity every time they saw him move a muscle. There was also no reports of hearing gunshots after the HRT went in. Although they probably wouldn't in that case. So, I think it seems most likely that he resisted and was shot when they tried to capture him, but who knows.)
I found this today, it's from the Swat team that found him.





So now, it is a knife wound..

Last edited by Rain Dancer; April 28th, 2013 at 06:50 PM.
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  #184    
Old April 28th, 2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rain Dancer View Post
I found this today, it's from the Swat team that found him.





So now, it is a knife wound..
No, not "now, it is a knife wound". We didn't know it was a gun wound before. All we knew was that he had a neck injury. If it was from gunfire, self-inflicted, or anything was not confirmed. If the media reports something, that does not make it true. Especially so in a 24/7 news cycle. They try their best, but they're working with incomplete information. This, to my knowledge, was the first official information on the issue and doesn't contradict anything we knew before - because all we knew was that he had a neck injury.

And that interview doesn't really say he has a knife wound. That may explain that odd looks, if you want to examine those. Knife wound is incorrect and wouldn't make sense given what the rest of team is aware of. He corrects himself and further explains that it is more specifically like a slice, possibly inflicted from shrapnel.

And CNN cuts up many videos like that online, on a variety of topics. The video's labelled as just being about the "rush" and the start of the video is abrupt as well - it isn't the full interview. They're clips. They don't want you to watch on YouTube. They want to you to tune into the TV channel and watch the full content and sit through commercials. It's a sample.
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  #185    
Old April 28th, 2013, 08:26 PM
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Spokesperson: ... so at that point we needed to get him away from the boat. Soon he was checked for anything, handcuffed, we just picked him up and ran like hell to get away from that boat and got him over to where the medics are - and the federal agents who were taking him into custody.

Anderson: There's a report that he was shot in the throat [..] unclear whether that was self-inflicted, whether - or at what point did that - could you tell that?

S: I did see a throat injury - to me it looked more like a knife wound, it wasn't a puncture hole, it was a slice where the [gestures] where it was spread open, possibly a piece of shrapnel from one of the explosives that they were using the night before. It didn't look like a bullet wound to me, it looked more like a cut of some kind.

A: What goes through your mind - I mean - you were focused for a week...
I think the agent assumed by "bullet wound" Anderson meant one that perforated through the neck and made an exit wound. A cut can be made by a knife, a piece of shrapnel, or a grazing bullet. If you look through Google images (not suggesting that you should), these superficial wounds are all pretty similar. So it's miscommunication if you ask me.

Also the agents around him didn't react when he said it was a knife wound, they reacted when he held his hand to his neck and started gesturing just how open the wound was >.> Because that's what the public totally needs to know, with a graphic depiction on national television no less. These guys have encountered visuals of wounds during training and perhaps in their careers - and you'll soon find why they're shocked as they are at him depicting it if you take a look on Google Images of various knife wounds. It's possible that he was the only one on the team who actually handled Djohar, the rest of the team have their own roles too! so naturally they maybe be curious especially if it wasn't a priority for them to tend to their target.

I think it's clear he was just offering his own opinion based on the observation. The doctor who investigated Djohar may have known that he was unarmed and so assumed that the cause of the wound was the bullet shot at him. The fact that the agent is going through his repertoire of wounds to offer a lot of maybes show the biases he carry with him from training and experience.

Media outlets often scramble about one another trying to get the story out first - and then the rest all copy the same thing in order to stay relevant. It's very possible that they have not gotten the facts straight - for example when they assumed some fire alarm problem was a bomb threat etc. But, I think the "bullet wound" was just the final call of the doctor. Everything else is speculation. <--EDIT: What TRIFORCE89 said, my internet got cut off while posting this.
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