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  #1    
Old June 4th, 2013, 03:27 PM
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Political Correctness. It's something you notice when you're friends with 5 blind guys. :p

What is your opinion on being "politically correct"?

Personally, "Political correctness" annoys the crap out of me. It demonstrates the biggest problem in our society - PC originates from trying to "not hurt someone's feelings" but it ends up being more of an issue of the speaker's reputation as opposed to the person they're actually talking about. It's very frustrating to see people be disgusted by my behaviour with my friends when both of us know that we're just fooling around like anyone else would with their friends.

I mean, I understand that you don't want people to think you're racist or intolerant, but honestly I believe that PC breeds intolerance. At least in the case of the disabled (which is the most common one I encounter personally considering my friends) it leads to people being more worried about "not upsetting that person" instead of recognizing that person as, well, a person. It causes people to forget the individuality of that person and throws it to the side of "don't offend someone". In my case I've learned that honestly people prefer you being honest instead of lying to try to make them feel better about themselves. I don't have the same amount of experience with more commonly discussed minorities such as race and religion but I would figure it'd be the same way.

And I'm not saying that people are terrible for helping an old lady cross the street or donating money to someone who was down on their luck, but honestly, we should respect that individual's individuality. Maybe the old lady wants to keep her independence. Maybe the homeless person wanted to be that way. It's always polite to ask, but wrong to force. While an action is more obvious, PC is the verbal equivalent of this and it's much harder to hone down, but it still has the same effect. When I'm with my friends and they ask for help, of course I'll offer it, but I think people forget how demeaning it is to assist someone who doesn't want it.

In the context of a cooperation or large organization, it makes a bit more sense to be PC. Obviously you can't talk to everyone and you can't cater to everyone's tastes, and all it takes is that one offended individual to take and cause thousands of dollars of legal trouble. But why does it have to extend to everyday life? I see it everywhere. It disgusts me that I can't talk to my friends and use the slang terms they came up with to describe other blind people and I'm the offensive one, but they group my friends in the same bag and act like they're helpless idiots, thanks to PC.

Treating others differently because they're different is wrong fundamentally. And PC is just a way to cover that simple little fact up. It ends up separating more people than it brings together. It has its uses in larger conglomerates but ends up being detrimental in every day life.
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  #2    
Old June 4th, 2013, 07:24 PM
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According to what I learned in psychology, people in more communalist societies or those who characterize themselves in a communalistic manners are less individuals. They instead enact certain roles depending on the group they're interacting with versus staying true to their "individual" identity. I don't believe it's such a bad thing to treat different people differently, and I don't feel the need to stay true to a coherent "individual" self.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 08:02 PM
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trying to "not hurt someone's feelings"
No, it's called being respectful. Here's the real problem, a lack of respect, understanding, and empathy.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 04:18 AM
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We actually had a good example of this in Australia recently. One of our national holidays is Australia day, it's self explanatory. Anyway, we had people from other backgrounds who have decide to start a new life in this great country, which is great....But, they were offended by Australia day and wanted it changed to Citizen day or something along those lines. Now i was opposed to that for obvious reasons and that makes me a racist. Yet the people who wanted to change it weren't? At the end of the day, whether you're born here or moved here we're all australian, so what does it matter. The point of all this is PC is getting so bad that you can quickly be labelled a rascist or a homophobe if you don't stop saying this or stop doing that. People need to get over it and focus on the real issues. well, thats my piece.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bugsy555 View Post
We actually had a good example of this in Australia recently. One of our national holidays is Australia day, it's self explanatory. Anyway, we had people from other backgrounds who have decide to start a new life in this great country, which is great....But, they were offended by Australia day and wanted it changed to Citizen day or something along those lines. Now i was opposed to that for obvious reasons and that makes me a racist. Yet the people who wanted to change it weren't? At the end of the day, whether you're born here or moved here we're all australian, so what does it matter. The point of all this is PC is getting so bad that you can quickly be labelled a rascist or a homophobe if you don't stop saying this or stop doing that. People need to get over it and focus on the real issues. well, thats my piece.
Yeah, I agree. I think you got across my point better than I managed to. It's like when people criticize me for going around and having an extremely sarcastic attitude with my friends and they stare at me like I'm some sort of freak for treating my friends like, well friends. People have actually told me I'm going to hell and all sorts of ******** for jokes that my friends came up with and are laughing at.

People are so good at missing the point about being "respectful" that they end up not being respectful.

I mean, I wouldn't talk that way to someone I just met, but that doesn't give people the right to judge others at face value. It's "easier" but it ends up hurting the person at the end of the line if you can't just talk to that person naturally and have to resort to a list of PC norms, especially if you have to talk to them about something that goes beyond that circle. And besides, what is better for someone, a person who respects them and makes a couple jokes or references that might be considered "crass" or just another person that walks by and tries to put the same mold on everyone else? Again, my whole point is we should let the person who it's relevant to make the decision to whether or not their statement is offensive. It's all a matter of context.

If you offend someone and you didn't mean to, then it's more their problem than yours, because if you had no intent in offending them then there was nothing to really worry about. Again in a large organization this kind of mindset won't fly but on an individual basis, if you offend someone who doesn't like whatever you said, then it's probably just them. (and that's something I've learned from experience).

In your case, Bugsy, I completely agree. Everyone is an Australian if they are Australian citizens, regardless of their race or religion or whatever. In either the case of Australia Day or Citizens Day, it incorporates everyone who is an Australian citizen. Citizens day does nothing to really show the individuality of the citizens either so if they're flipping their crap over that, well that's just dumb.
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  #6    
Old June 5th, 2013, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
No, it's called being respectful. Here's the real problem, a lack of respect, understanding, and empathy.
And upholding such an unconditional demand for respect isn't an issue? In life we are taught some pretension of dignity but it seems only to make us needlessly haught.
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  #7    
Old June 5th, 2013, 08:20 AM
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Hmm...it all depends how far you go with your opinion really.
For example, EDL marches outside Mosques is a bit ridiculous. Opposing the construction of a Mosque in your neighborhood on the other hand is perfectly valid. Particularly if you can up with more of a reason than something like "they're all terrorists".


Not specifically trying to bring up Islam or anything, it just seems like the easiest example.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 08:23 AM
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I feel respect is given until it is taken away, but maybe that's just my asian heritage. It's better to show more respect than less if the situation is unclear. I think appearing haught only happens if you think about it, much like being awkward in a social situation only really exist if you think about it too much. It's possible to be respectful without being contrived.

What kind of person opposes a mosque though? What kind of person opposes the construction of a church of any kind?
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  #9    
Old June 5th, 2013, 08:24 AM
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Political Correctness is why a lot of people can't have nice things nor enjoy their life experience. A good example is Christmas, where people who don't celebrate Christmas, people who celebrate other holidays on Decembers like Kuanza and modern-day scrooges, are easily offended by the holiday and try to have local governments to change it, but at the cost of offending people who celebrate Christmas. This is one of the more difficult tasks of trying to please everyone without offending every unique individual, but in the end, the results are catatrophic.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Corvidae View Post
If you offend someone and you didn't mean to, then it's more their problem than yours, because if you had no intent in offending them then there was nothing to really worry about. Again in a large organization this kind of mindset won't fly but on an individual basis, if you offend someone who doesn't like whatever you said, then it's probably just them. (and that's something I've learned from experience).
I disagree. Some things are just offensive on their face. People shouldn't be ignorant of how offensive what they say could be. That's where I think people get annoyed at "political correctness" because they have this strawman idea of what being PC is, i.e., you have to tiptoe around everyone, only say nice things, etc. when the ideas behind political correctness are just to be conscious of differences between people and then take those differences into account to maybe question established values or judgments and also to stop harassment and verbal abuse of people because of their differences.

So, like, the strawman PC thing is to say "African American" (for us Americans anyway) and not "black" but the real thing isn't that you shouldn't call someone black, you just shouldn't say things like "those blacks" or "black people are all..." and stuff like that.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I feel respect is given until it is taken away, but maybe that's just my asian heritage. It's better to show more respect than less if the situation is unclear. I think appearing haught only happens if you think about it, much like being awkward in a social situation only really exist if you think about it too much. It's possible to be respectful without being contrived.

What kind of person opposes a mosque though? What kind of person opposes the construction of a church of any kind?
THIS
That is exactly how I feel.

The issue with political correctness is that "PC" in itself isn't actually a bad thing. It is the extremes people take it to that are the problem because it has gotten to the point where some people are terrified to speak their minds because it might offend some people.

If you have something you feel is important to say you should say it, if people are offended that sucks but you shouldn't live your entire life saying nothing because you could possibly hurt someone's feelings.

I'm not saying "hey let's all go on racist, sexist or homophobic rants - because who cares about other people!" I'm saying that a freedom of speech is pretty much a given in most countries now, certainly is Western civilisation, so we should be allowed to use that right, so long as we don't abuse it.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 08:40 AM
Kanzler
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Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
Political Correctness is why a lot of people can't have nice things nor enjoy their life experience. A good example is Christmas, where people who don't celebrate Christmas, people who celebrate other holidays on Decembers like Kuanza and modern-day scrooges, are easily offended by the holiday and try to have local governments to change it, but at the cost of offending people who celebrate Christmas. This is one of the more difficult tasks of trying to please everyone without offending every unique individual, but in the end, the results are catatrophic.
I think that's not a real problem, it's mostly blown out of proportion by the media and in society imo. I live in a place where it's 50% Chinese, 30% South Asian, and 10% White. I doubt that anyone could find a racial mix like that anywhere else. Christmas decorations go up in all our local malls in November. I think most of the controversy comes from people trying to prempt it by renaming "Christmas" into "festive" or whatnot before there's any uproar - you don't fix something that ain't broken.

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I disagree. Some things are just offensive on their face. People shouldn't be ignorant of how offensive what they say could be. That's where I think people get annoyed at "political correctness" because they have this strawman idea of what being PC is, i.e., you have to tiptoe around everyone, only say nice things, etc. when the ideas behind political correctness are just to be conscious of differences between people and then take those differences into account to maybe question established values or judgments and also to stop harassment and verbal abuse of people because of their differences.
I agree. Going back to respect, if you fail to communicate an intent, it's possible that you just failed at communication. It's two-way, and just because you've expelled words from your mouth doesn't mean you've expelled all responsibility for the effect they have on the listener along with it.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 09:54 AM
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What kind of person opposes a mosque though? What kind of person opposes the construction of a church of any kind?
You'd hope it would be people who don't want all the associated conflicts that religion brings with it. Sadly, it probably wouldn't be that sort of a person...

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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I agree. Going back to respect, if you fail to communicate an intent, it's possible that you just failed at communication. It's two-way, and just because you've expelled words from your mouth doesn't mean you've expelled all responsibility for the effect they have on the listener along with it.
Exactly. Most of the time my dad doesn't get my humour, but often that's because I don't alter the tone of my voice enough to convey a sense of irony. Words aren't necessarily the problem, more the way they're used.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 09:56 AM
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I agree about giving everybody respect when you first meet them, but if they're not as worried about PC as others may be, then an occasional joke is perfectly fine.

For example: (as I so poorly worded in a different topic.)
I myself have been known to joke with my female friends, saying things such as "Pretty big word for a chick." or "Why aren't you in the kitchen?" Now, most of today's famous chefs are men, and, a good portion of the most intelligent people I know are women. . . The thing we're laughing at isn't a "sexist" joke, but rather how wrong that statement is now.
Not long ago, women were the ones doing all the cooking. Not long ago men were generally the only ones educated- ah, sorry, rather, white men. The reason we laugh at those sorts of statements, and trust me, they have plenty for men, is because there is honestly people who still believe them to be true. Of course, I wouldn't say "Pretty big word for a chick." to anyone I had just met, but I don't change my choice of words when talking to those friends in public. If somebody gets offended by what I'm saying in a personal conversation that they have no business listening to, then tough.

The fact of the matter is that most people I've met that are concerned with being PC, are caring too much about what anyone who hears them thinks, and too little about what who they're talking to thinks. Respect though, which is quite a different subject I assure you, is about having empathy and not offending the people you're interacting with.

Okay, I'm sure I worded something in there in such a way that could insinuate something offensive, or stupid. . . Have at it then D&D!
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Old June 5th, 2013, 10:08 AM
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As a white man I find it offensive that you insinuated that we were the only ones who got education. If this were true, there would be no strife in the world :P

But no, you were more on track with men in general, if you think in a global context - pretty sure they had education in China and Japan 50 years ago, now many white men there...
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Old June 5th, 2013, 10:09 AM
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You'd hope it would be people who don't want all the associated conflicts that religion brings with it. Sadly, it probably wouldn't be that sort of a person...
I'm an atheist, but I believe in tolerance of religions and spiritual beliefs. If anything, I think it's more pragmatic to allow a mosque be built rather than allow discontent fester by depriving them of a place of worship. But ideally, society should be corrected if newcomers cannot have their temple to avoid offending the establishment. While individuals should be respected, society has a collective responsibility to protect that respect through tolerance and non-interference (within the bounds of course). If society fails in its responsibility, it should be changed and the people who forsake that responsibility should be deprived of their power. If I wanted to avoid conflict, but through preventing a temple from being erected, I'm only prostrating myself at the intolerant.

Besides, I think mosques are generally not so much for profit, but to provide a community centre, a hub for people united by faith and culture. It'll be a huge investment for the people going through with it anyways, so I'll trust by the weight of the money they've put in that they know what they're doing.

Quote:
As a white man I find it offensive that you insinuated that we were the only ones who got education. If this were true, there would be no strife in the world

But no, you were more on track with men in general, if you think in a global context - pretty sure they had education in China and Japan 50 years ago, now many white men there...
XD
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Old June 5th, 2013, 02:33 PM
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I agree with Paladin. Respect and PC are two different subjects. You can be very respectful and still offend someone.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bugsy555 View Post
I agree with Paladin. Respect and PC are two different subjects. You can be very respectful and still offend someone.
But then that's the person being offended's fault for being offended for no legitimate reason.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 07:42 AM
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PolItical Correctness is a joke.

Offense is taken - NOT given.

Its gone too far - PC is responsible for things we see happening like Sharia law for example taking over areas in countries in which it has no place. People are too scared to speak out because saying anything might be misconstrued or seen as Politically incorrect.

I just say what I like. I don't go out of my way to upset people, but if I say something they don't like then that's their problem.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 08:02 AM
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Treating others differently because they're different is wrong fundamentally. And PC is just a way to cover that simple little fact up. It ends up separating more people than it brings together. It has its uses in larger conglomerates but ends up being detrimental in every day life.
The aim is to treat people with dignity. There are certain words in our vocabulary that can be degrading in a certain context. I find that considering the use of different words as treating someone differently is much more shallow than the fact of the matter, which is treating someone with the same respect as you would any other person. If one doesn't believe that's the point of PC, then obviously that person is getting it wrong, will feel hostile to the idea, and potentially offend someone even while 'trying' to be PC.

I treat people I love and respect with dignity, I treat people who have offended me gravely, well with hostility. Especially if they haven't paid for their dues. Is this treating people differently, which is wrong fundamentally? On the surface yes, but I'm treating them with the dignity they deserve. Just an example coming from the other direction.

Quote:
But then that's the person being offended's fault for being offended for no legitimate reason.
I find that it's really really tough to be offended for no legitimate reason, unless said offended person is being disingenuous. What happens more often in my mind is a knowledge gap, that one person is ignorant of something and pushes ahead saying it without fully understanding with what their saying. Who's fault is it? Well the person accused of saying something stupid can certainly apologize and say "sorry, I didn't know that". To put it another way, would it be better to apologize for ignorance or to refuse because you believe ignorance isn't 'wrong'? In this situation, whoever refuses to apologizes looks to me of defending their ignorance and that to me is just flat out stupid and insincere.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 08:47 AM
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I feel as if people that TRY to be politically correct and shame others for not being so believe that good character is a show you put on, and not a state of mind. Kindness, empathy, and being inclusive mean nothing to me if someone is such for a social stance rather than selflessness. These people are easy to spot because every so often they will break character and be the epitome of hypocritical.

I don't really know how to explain how I feel about this, words are too constrictive, so I might not make too much sense. I just feel that someone who is honestly kind and empathetic will not need to worry about offending, and by extension, 'be' politically correct.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:47 PM
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No, it's called being respectful. Here's the real problem, a lack of respect, understanding, and empathy.
i'm all for being respectful and aware of social situations, but if someone asks my opinion then i'm probably going to tell them what i think. trying to fit in makes for little progress.

sometimes a fat person needs to be told he needs diet and exercise, there's a 99.99% chance his genes didn't cause him to be four times my size, and he'll live longer for it.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:51 PM
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Political correctness, when applied in the right context, place and time is a part of being polite yes. Other times it just gets in the way and sometimes blurs things unnecessarily. Being politically correct, isn't wrong, it's just not always right either. Use your head and ask yourself if you'd rather someone be politically correct in that situation before using it, and you'll avoid most mishaps surrounding being politically correct usually.
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Old June 25th, 2013, 08:18 PM
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I beleive we should look beyond being PC. If one is too PC I feel they are just hiding their ugly side inside, one should try imho pause and ask themselves why they are thinking this, does one perhaps have some discrimination inside of themselves that they don't want to acknowledge? If so how can one improve so that this can be at least minimized. If we all do that I beleive there will be little need for PC which is just make up over what can be an ugly thought.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bugsy555 View Post
We actually had a good example of this in Australia recently. One of our national holidays is Australia day, it's self explanatory. Anyway, we had people from other backgrounds who have decide to start a new life in this great country, which is great....But, they were offended by Australia day and wanted it changed to Citizen day or something along those lines. Now i was opposed to that for obvious reasons and that makes me a racist. Yet the people who wanted to change it weren't? At the end of the day, whether you're born here or moved here we're all australian, so what does it matter. The point of all this is PC is getting so bad that you can quickly be labelled a rascist or a homophobe if you don't stop saying this or stop doing that. People need to get over it and focus on the real issues. well, thats my piece.
I got into a pretty heated debate with one of my friends who was one of those people supporting the name change of Australia Day.
He is from India and thought it wasn't really appropriate for it to be strictly Australia Day as it implied only "Australians" could celebrate it.
My other friend of Aboriginal background was the same for a different, slightly more realistic reason, Jan 26 was the day white men settled and began colonising Australia, in the process they slaughtered thousands of innocent aboriginals. To her naming the day the slaughter of her past relatives as the most celebrated day relating to our country was definitely inconsiderate and should either be moved to a different day, or have it change it's name to not label Jan 26 as our most proud moment so we named our national day after it.


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Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
I disagree. Some things are just offensive on their face. People shouldn't be ignorant of how offensive what they say could be.

So, like, the strawman PC thing is to say "African American" (for us Americans anyway) and not "black" but the real thing isn't that you shouldn't call someone black, you just shouldn't say things like "those blacks" or "black people are all..." and stuff like that.

You're right in the sense that people shouldn't be ignorant about the connotations of their words, but I don't like that it implies many things to be offensive. Example, if I a white man were to call an African man a "n*****" that would be highly offensive and derogatory in any context. Everyone is aware of that, it is impossible for you to think that would be okay to say. But if I were to call him "black", I have no idea why that's a problem and it's not ignorance. Without context N is offensive, black is not.
Anything identifying black as lesser or somehow worse than another race is offensive and it goes both ways. But to describe a man as tall, black, and wearing green skinny jeans should be completely fine. I mean it's okay for every other race ever to call a white boy white and he has no right to be offended by it but the other way and it's a horrific crime.


I'd also like to point out that, with exceptions, the majority of words, slurs, remarks and stereotypes are only offensive when someone deems them so.
In summation I'm going to continue calling black people black, white people white, Asians Asian, Latino's Latino etc.. So call me racist for being insensitive to this ridiculous idea of Political Correctness.
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