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  #1    
Old June 11th, 2013, 07:38 AM
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What are expecting from this type? What will happen to Dragon-types now? Will Haxorus drop to UU next generation? Perhaps Azumarill will become OU? Use this thread for discussion on the Fairy-types and how they'll affect competitive Pokemon as we slowly get more info on the new type.

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  #2    
Old June 11th, 2013, 07:50 AM
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If Fairy type also resists Dragon, then Azumarill just may become a good Kingdra check. If it gets a physical Fairy STAB, then it may not have to rely on Ice Punch to get past Dragons. Haxorus may be forced to run X-Scissor just to get past Gardevoir.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 09:11 AM
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^If its true, Fairy is IMMUNE to dragon js.

Hopefully it mitigates the dragon centralization and actually gives poison and steel types usage as those are super effective vs Fairy. However Garchomp will probably see usage as EQ still mauls most of them so yeah and Haxorus just because of its sheer power. Id expect it harms "less powerful dragons" who cannot boost their stats by +2 more however such as Lati@s, Kingdra and maybe Salamence depending on if it has enough power with DD <coverage move> to get past its fairy checks. Iron Tail mence and Flash Cannon Lati@s anyone lol ?
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  #4    
Old June 11th, 2013, 10:35 AM
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Fairy is strong against dragon so dragon type is slowly become a nomarl type now instead of being a "god" type
i hope Meloetta retyped as Fariy/Physhic and Xerneas is Fairy/grass type
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Old June 11th, 2013, 11:45 AM
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The new type will make a difference in the next generation. I can't be sure, but I'm worried that there may not be many Fairy typed mons that will be powerful enough to handle the dragons.
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  #6    
Old June 11th, 2013, 01:08 PM
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With the few that they showed so far, Fairy isn't even scratching the surface. It needs a lot more than the low powered Pokemon. Sylveon and Gardevoir may bump up a bit, but at the same time they now have more weaknesses to wittle them down.

We still need to see the full type chart for Fairy before anything big can be said, but just from what has been shown, Fairy won't change much of anything other than add a new attack to some other Pokemon to keep Dragons in check.

Not enough power to be considered a threat.
  #7    
Old June 11th, 2013, 08:41 PM
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This is the right move I feel.

Getting rid of Dragon centralization is always good, I do worry though if alot of Dragons will be forced into UU and RU like Kingdra/Mence/Nite/Flygon/Lati@s who rely so much on their Dragon STAB to get their job done. It's a step in the right direction but some Dragons need buffs to accommodate this big nerf imo. Now if they only fix weather and the power creep and we might have a solid metagame on our hands.
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Last edited by Pokedra; June 11th, 2013 at 08:46 PM.
  #8    
Old June 12th, 2013, 12:29 PM
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It's a step in the right direction but some Dragons need buffs to accommodate this big nerf imo.
It's an exaggeration to say that dragons actually need a boon to make up for this nerf. I highly doubt dragons will be affected by this in a significant way, aside from possibly being the slight push that's needed to drop Haxorus (and maybe Hydreigon) in UU. Most of the best offensive types have a good chunk of Pokemon that are immune to their type. Water Absorb and Storm Drain for the Water-type, Flash Fire for the Fire-type, Ghost-types for the Fighting-type, Flying-types and Levitate for the Ground-type, and so on. Dragon is easily the best offensive type right at the moment, aside from Water and Fire (in their respective weathers), and this new Fairy-type will change very little. However, it will most certainly balance out the power of dragons some by giving players more methods of defeating them, along with Steel-types and revenge killers. Dragons still have unparalleled coverage; they continue to have the least amount of resistant or immune types offensively out of any other type sans Fairy.
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  #9    
Old June 12th, 2013, 12:47 PM
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I think it depends on what Fairy would be weak too. Like, if Fairy's weak to Poison/Steel, it might cause some dragons to drop, because there aren't many good offensive moves of those types. But if Fairy is weak to Ice, for example, then some Dragons might not be as affected, because some dragons can carry Ice type moves. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Also, we don't know if Fairy is immune or just resistant to dragon yet, but I'm not really sure how it would affect dragons either way.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 01:32 PM
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Mass guessing on my part, but this is what I think the strengths/weaknesses will look for Fairy

Strong Dragon (We know this already), Weak Bug, Strong/Weak Dark (Unsure which - one or the other), Stong/Weak Ghost (One or the other, but I'm leaning towards strong), Strong/Null Psychic.

It honestly wouldn't suprise me if it was strong against both Ghost and Dark. Imo, it's about time we get something that would negate Sableye's and Spiritomb's 'hahahahaha nothing is super effective against me' typing.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 08:14 PM
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if it resists fighting then it has a huge potential for a niche as one of the better defensive typings in OU
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  #12    
Old June 14th, 2013, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
It's an exaggeration to say that dragons actually need a boon to make up for this nerf. I highly doubt dragons will be affected by this in a significant way, aside from possibly being the slight push that's needed to drop Haxorus (and maybe Hydreigon) in UU. Most of the best offensive types have a good chunk of Pokemon that are immune to their type. Water Absorb and Storm Drain for the Water-type, Flash Fire for the Fire-type, Ghost-types for the Fighting-type, Flying-types and Levitate for the Ground-type, and so on. Dragon is easily the best offensive type right at the moment, aside from Water and Fire (in their respective weathers), and this new Fairy-type will change very little. However, it will most certainly balance out the power of dragons some by giving players more methods of defeating them, along with Steel-types and revenge killers. Dragons still have unparalleled coverage; they continue to have the least amount of resistant or immune types offensively out of any other type sans Fairy.
Actually having something that is immune to their moves is that great of a nerf. Will Specs Latios be as effective now there are Pokemon that can safety switch into it's Draco Meteor with zero drawbacks. This is theorymoning at it's finest but the main boon of Dragon types was always it's unparalleled coverage. Think if you removed Ghost and Steel types wouldn't Normal suddenly be excellent as an attacking type?

I agree with implementing the new type however I do think Dragons needs a buff to keep up, otherwise it's just going to be Normal+ in terms of offensive coverage and I'm not okay with that. Azumarill now perfectly counters Dragons like Kingdra,etc. Nerf them to keep them in line but not to the point where half of the Dragons become useless. Anyways everyone's always been ok with Dragon being generally the best type, I see no reason for that to change.
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  #13    
Old June 14th, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pokedra
Dragons need a buff etc.
This strikes me as an overreaction. Plenty of attacking types get by just fine with immunities hampering them. Jolteon has done just fine for itself as an attacker despite (gen 4 examples alert) Pokemon like Flygon, Swampert, Hippowdon, etc. all being able to come in and absorb its STAB move. Yeah, it makes Jolteon less effective, but it's probably healthy that Jolteon has some decent checks outside of Blissey. I think the centralizing power of Dragons in the past has proven that. Since you basically had to run multiple Steel-types to compete with the likes of Latias and Salamence, the metagame got heavily centralized because, well, Pokemon as we knew it simply could not reliably keep up with those Pokemon in large part because of their offensive typing. Is it really such a bad thing if you can't spam Draco Meteor all over the place? Doesn't it force people to predict more, and isn't that a good thing? I don't think "we can't spam our Dragon moves early game" can lead you to a leap where they become useless or their effectiveness is severely compromised.

I think what's more likely is that Dragon-types become more like offensive Fighting-types, where the STAB has one annoying immunity (Ghost) and a few useful type resistances (Psychic and Flying especially) that keep it in line. I think it makes more sense than the Normal comparison largely because there just aren't that many Normal-types to abuse its neutral coverage. Dragon-types have way better stats and movepools across the board, have key resistances (and often immunities) that Normal-types don't, and are just better in a vacuum. And Normal's closest thing to Draco or Outrage is, what, Double-Edge? There are a lot of confounding factors beyond the typing itself that make Normal-types less than awesome. If you took Tauros, for example, and gave it Salamence's base stats, two 120+ BP STAB moves (one physical, one special) and Dragon Dance, it probably wouldn't be such a joke anymore.

...And this all assume that the Fairy-types will be good enough themselves to warrant usage and reliable enough checks to Dragons to make them worthwhile. I'd say it's likely but we don't know. (Not like it's bad to assume that, otherwise this is sort of a pointless thread lol and theorymon isn't a crime all the time but yeah)
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  #14    
Old June 14th, 2013, 04:18 PM
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This strikes me as an overreaction. Plenty of attacking types get by just fine with immunities hampering them. Jolteon has done just fine for itself as an attacker despite (gen 4 examples alert) Pokemon like Flygon, Swampert, Hippowdon, etc. all being able to come in and absorb its STAB move. Yeah, it makes Jolteon less effective, but it's probably healthy that Jolteon has some decent checks outside of Blissey. I think the centralizing power of Dragons in the past has proven that. Since you basically had to run multiple Steel-types to compete with the likes of Latias and Salamence, the metagame got heavily centralized because, well, Pokemon as we knew it simply could not reliably keep up with those Pokemon in large part because of their offensive typing. Is it really such a bad thing if you can't spam Draco Meteor all over the place? Doesn't it force people to predict more, and isn't that a good thing? I don't think "we can't spam our Dragon moves early game" can lead you to a leap where they become useless or their effectiveness is severely compromised.

I think what's more likely is that Dragon-types become more like offensive Fighting-types, where the STAB has one annoying immunity (Ghost) and a few useful type resistances (Psychic and Flying especially) that keep it in line. I think it makes more sense than the Normal comparison largely because there just aren't that many Normal-types to abuse its neutral coverage. Dragon-types have way better stats and movepools across the board, have key resistances (and often immunities) that Normal-types don't, and are just better in a vacuum. And Normal's closest thing to Draco or Outrage is, what, Double-Edge? There are a lot of confounding factors beyond the typing itself that make Normal-types less than awesome. If you took Tauros, for example, and gave it Salamence's base stats, two 120+ BP STAB moves (one physical, one special) and Dragon Dance, it probably wouldn't be such a joke anymore.

...And this all assume that the Fairy-types will be good enough themselves to warrant usage and reliable enough checks to Dragons to make them worthwhile. I'd say it's likely but we don't know. (Not like it's bad to assume that, otherwise this is sort of a pointless thread lol and theorymon isn't a crime all the time but yeah)
I'm not asking for a new 200BP Dragon move, I personally like this nerf. What I fear is they nerf them too greatly, I think just giving the Dragon-types one or two new coverage moves should be fine. They gain some new moves and have more checks to their primary nukes.

This doesn't take into account, Dragons have so few weaknesses and multiple resistances. Would Palkia be considered anywhere near as good as it is in Ubers without only a single weakness that it itself is strong against? Adding another weakness to a type that relies heavily on it resistances will hamper it greatly.

Dragon has pitiful super-effective coverage, that's what makes it different from Electric/Water/Fire, high-powered moves/high-coverage are the primary reason they can score KO's easily, hampering the former could have a large impact. Alas, we need to see the availability of the Fairy-type. These adding a type immune to their primary form of offense is a greater nerf then something like Water Absorb. I feel this argument is pointless because it's merely theory and all in all I agree with you.

Over-centralization needs to go but a balance should be struck. I'm merely hoping Fairy-types check Dragons rather then breaking them because they were always meant to be this more dominant and better type then the rest. Centralization will still occur even if Dragon's are nerfed anyway. People tend to go for the best.

tl;dr It's the right move, I just don't trust GameFreak to do what's right after that frothing mess that Gen V brought, #lolautoweather
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  #15    
Old June 15th, 2013, 03:47 AM
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they will check dragons because you can easily stick a cb tar in front of little fairy type sylveon and clear up a sweep for old garchomp, with this im also implying that dragspam will probably be killed which i dont think is an entirely bad thing since dragspam v stall literally comes down to one prediction for the dragspam player; will magnezone be able to come in on skarmory, which are pretty ridiculous odds. on the other hand dragspam only has to maintain foresight vs offense and not let something like specstoed kill half their team off; basically it has to make sure that its killing at a higher rate for the endgame and that a scarfkelder isnt around to kill them, too. also i think we're all over-reacting to this type being a huge presence in OU, fairy may end up being a bad defensive typing in the end; already looks to be Scizor bait; if it's weak to dark then that's a huge dealbreaker, as is the type not being resistant to fighting [because you can just substitute dragspam for close combat spam], so in the end you might only see a few fairies in OU because the typing is so bad vs other types that it's not that viable, and you can still throw haxorus and friends at the opponent's team. probably would make living hell for the lower tier dragons though since there'd likely be a fairy on every low tier stall lol
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:25 AM
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But why would you stick CB Tar infront of Sylveon (according to the link) Fairy is super effective against Dark Types ?_?

Also close combat spam is no where near as effective as dragon spam. It has alot more resists and immunities whilst dragon has....one resist and no immunities.

Also you should be running Shed Shell on Skarm, i feel you put yourself at a disadvantage against those sort of teams if you fail to do so. Its better to be safe than sorry. Even more so with ST Gothitelle.

Anyway those dragons with the ability to go +2 see: Garchomp and Haxorus will probably not be affected. Those who fail to be able to do so, see; Mence, Kingdra and Lati@s etc will be affected the most imo. For example, Fairy Azumarril now basically hard walls Kingdra and Mence. As i said with those they are either gonna have to receive some sort of additional coverage moves or use....Iron Tail/Poison moves lol. Even then that wont help with Azu, Mawile etc.
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  #17    
Old June 15th, 2013, 01:41 PM
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But why would you stick CB Tar infront of Sylveon (according to the link) Fairy is super effective against Dark Types ?_?

Also close combat spam is no where near as effective as dragon spam. It has alot more resists and immunities whilst dragon has....one resist and no immunities.

Also you should be running Shed Shell on Skarm, i feel you put yourself at a disadvantage against those sort of teams if you fail to do so. Its better to be safe than sorry. Even more so with ST Gothitelle.

Anyway those dragons with the ability to go +2 see: Garchomp and Haxorus will probably not be affected. Those who fail to be able to do so, see; Mence, Kingdra and Lati@s etc will be affected the most imo. For example, Fairy Azumarril now basically hard walls Kingdra and Mence. As i said with those they are either gonna have to receive some sort of additional coverage moves or use....Iron Tail/Poison moves lol. Even then that wont help with Azu, Mawile etc.
Fairy isn't SE against Dark based on what we've seen. Gardevoir would have one shot Hydreigon if it was SE against both Dragon and Dark seeing as Focus Blast can One Shot Hydreigon. Based on the trailer, Fairy is normal damage against both Dark and Flying at best.
  #18    
Old June 15th, 2013, 04:31 PM
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Azumarill will become a potent Dragon check imo, It's actually pretty bulky naturally so Max HP / Def will ensure things like Flygon, Mence and Kingdra simply bounce off it while it can still smack them with a Huge Power-boosted Ice Punch. I doubt any of them will get Poison moves so they'll have to rely on unboosted moves to muscle their way through. CBFlygon deals like ~45% to it with STAB EQ.

Balloon Mawile will hard-counter Garchomp
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  #19    
Old June 16th, 2013, 09:09 AM
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Immunity seems dumb to me. I'd be okay with a resistance but immunity seems like overkill. This is just an off-the-cuff reaction. I still don't think it will get rid of dragon centralization, they are generally speaking some of the fastest and strongest attack mons with more often than not excellent typing. It will just move Fairy-type mons up the list in usage and you'll have stuff like Togetic (who better be a freaking fairy type I mean come on) in OU. You'll still have Scizor/Heatran/Garchomp and pals all being used too. It just adds one more thing that you have to look out for but can't possibly check with just 6 pokemon because there are already too many threats.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 02:28 PM
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Fairy isn't SE against Dark based on what we've seen. Gardevoir would have one shot Hydreigon if it was SE against both Dragon and Dark seeing as Focus Blast can One Shot Hydreigon. Based on the trailer, Fairy is normal damage against both Dark and Flying at best.
Where is this trailer ? Also actually no, Focus Blast usually doesnt OHKO Hydreigon as its rather bulky, depending on the evs of course. :x

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Balloon Mawile will hard-counter Garchomp
Fire Fang.

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Immunity seems dumb to me. I'd be okay with a resistance but immunity seems like overkill.
So does being able to 2HKO like 99% of the metagame with outrage/Draco. :\ I think this change will be for the better.

Now all they have to do is add more defensive mons, more spinners and nerf weather and we will have something in gen 6 that resembles balance.
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; June 17th, 2013 at 11:44 AM.
  #21    
Old June 16th, 2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Where is this trailer ? Also actually no, Focus Blast cannot OHKO Hydreigon as its rather bulky. :x
Here we go. Moves start at 1:13 (I can't seem to set a start time for an embedded vid)


My calcs might be wrong, but it looks as though a Focus Blast from Gardevoir with neutral/252 comes very close to a OHKO on a 0/0 Neutral Hydreigon (with something like an 8% chance of KO). That's assuming no boosts of any sort, minus STAB and SE.

Running with the same stats, a Base-60 (same as the other "Wind" moves that I recall) STAB move that's 2x effective would do 65-76% and upwards of 130% for 4x. Given that we can assume the EVs aren't so biased in the video, the 63% shown seems to fit pretty nicely with the theory of a Base-60 move with 2x effectiveness. In fact, it's just inside the damage spectrum for no EVs and neutral on both pokemon.

It's all speculation based on so little info at the moment, though, so it's rather pointless, lol. Once we start getting other type relations and moves/etc, there's more to discuss.
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Old June 17th, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Well i just calced a base 60 4x SE move with no ev's taken into account on both pokemon and it does 70.2% - 83.7% which looks mighty close to the damage range in that video. That being said, we will just have to wait i guess for more info lol. :/
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  #23    
Old June 17th, 2013, 05:01 PM
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Where is this trailer ? Also actually no, Focus Blast usually doesnt OHKO Hydreigon as its rather bulky, depending on the evs of course. :x
I have a Non-SP. Def EV trained Hydreigon that doesn't have a deliberating ability and he ALWAYS gets OHKO'd by Focus Blast when it hits unless the Pokemon using it has a base power less than 90...I know my friends Gardevoir can one shot my Hydreigon with it. I know I got one shot by an Electivire as well it as a base of 95 and favors physical attacks over special attacks. A Toxicroak came close before as well.

According to Psypoke's calculator a Croagunk could indeed nearly KO with base info only depending on if my nature and EV's effected my HP, which they didn't. The curve was 248 as the lowest and 294 as the highest. Hydreigon has between 294 and 388. I don't believe mine has many as it was SP. ATK and Speed trained with remainder going into HP (can't remember if HP or Def) and its IV spread is pretty average. I survived a possible one shot so assume it was.

(have to use Gengar and Mime. Jr but lowered Gengar to 125 SP ATK using Ominous Wind since its assumed Fairy Wind will match)

Damage output was between 182 Minimum and 216 Maximum. Hydreigon with no EV in HP would be 294 which would be around 62% to 73%.

With two weaknesses...(changing to a bug to use Silver wind on a Grass/Psychic)

Minimum damage was 244 to 288. That would be... 83% - 97%. Which is more than what was shown. Average hit would be in the 90% range...

So it really doesn't look like it was x4 SE damage. Psypoke's calculator (allowed me to put proper attack and defense ranges thank you holy figure) disagrees with x4 damage doing so little damage. to a Pokemon such as Hydreigon.

No IVs or EVs added at all.


I made an oopsie. I forgot to change Gengar to a bug type so the previous calcs didn't add STAB.

x4 SE hit with a base 60 does 364 - 432. Well over Hydreigon's HP levels and around 90% on a fully supported HP Hydreigon)



Went into Smogon's calculator and got similar outcome. Numbers are different but the damage is near the same point.

Bug with 125 Sp. Atk. Using Silver Wind. Grass with HP 92 and SP. Def 90.

x2 SE Damage came to 180 - 212 55.4% - 65.2%
x4 SE Damage came to 360 - 424 110.8% - 130.5%

Last edited by Khrysta; June 17th, 2013 at 05:51 PM.
 
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