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View Poll Results: when the pokemon anime jumped the shark?
jhoto saga 2 8.33%
advanced saga 0 0%
pearl and diamond saga 2 8.33%
BW saga 6 25.00%
when Ash leaved to charizard in charizific valley 1 4.17%
when misty leaves the serie 3 12.50%
when brock leaves the serie 0 0%
when tobias defeated ash 5 20.83%
when cameron defeated ash 5 20.83%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1    
Old April 8th, 2015 (03:01 PM). Edited April 8th, 2015 by jgga.
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this is my first thread, i would like ask you, in your opinion ¿when did the anime jump the shark ? for who don't know " Jumping the shark" is an idiom that was used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, or in the pokemon case "jumping the sharkpedo"
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Old April 8th, 2015 (05:37 PM).
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Probably when you grew up and lost your inner kid.

I don't think the anime is that much worse from when it first started that people say it is. It's just a factor that you're no longer a kid and you don't see it as magical, instead logical.
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Old April 8th, 2015 (06:22 PM).
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^Pretty much this.

Everyone has different values and expectations for the anime, though I personally found the quality of the Pokémon anime to be quite consistent. Sure, the newer series might feel a bit less unique at times, but they definitely make up for it in other (and/or better) ways.
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Old April 9th, 2015 (04:55 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Revise Librarian:
^Pretty much this.

Everyone has different values and expectations for the anime, though I personally found the quality of the Pokémon anime to be quite consistent. Sure, the newer series might feel a bit less unique at times, but they definitely make up for it in other (and/or better) ways.
Agreed. The anime stopped being as crazy and fun after the Orange Islands, but things like storytelling, character development, and the battles were a huge step up from what came before. And for every really stupid moment that the OP lists in the poll, there’s usually something done so well as to make up for it.

BW is about the only exception I can think of. Satoshi as a character and his journey in general really jumped the shark there.
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Old April 13th, 2015 (06:51 PM).
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It's debatable, but for me, it's either the entire Unova saga, which is more of a popular opinion from the majority of the fanbase, or the last scenes of XY60 and onwards (you all know why).
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Old April 13th, 2015 (07:30 PM).
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For me, I think the narrative "jumped the shark" during the BW series, simply because it was/is/seemed like a pseudo-reboot. The series definitely didn't need that, and I feel like it lost momentum from the end of DP series when the narrative was at its height, and some of the creative decisions were just going the wrong direction.

Quote originally posted by Bobdapeach:
Probably when you grew up and lost your inner kid.

I don't think the anime is that much worse from when it first started that people say it is. It's just a factor that you're no longer a kid and you don't see it as magical, instead logical.
I kind of agree with this actually, considering each saga is essentially a carbon copy of the first series.
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Old April 13th, 2015 (11:57 PM). Edited April 15th, 2015 by Kid Sonic.
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Well here's a specific answer.

The anime jumped the shark during Johto when they had 50 less pkemon than the first generation and three seasons. Johto itself was fatigued with rinse and repeat Team Rocket encounter. We're talking a big difference from the beginnings of Kanto, which had the flock of angry Spearow, the Beedrill swarm, stoic Brock's giant intimidating Onix, an OP Sandshrew, the school of hard knocks, the giant Dragonite, Lt. Surge and his Raichu, Team Rocket's raid on the S.S. Anne, the ship sinking, Gyarados, the island of giant robot Pokemon, SABRINA, the Tower of Terror, Primeape, Muk, Porygon's cyberspace, the Kangaskhan herd, the herd of Exeggutor, the prehistoric Pokemon, Mewtwo, etc. Plus special surprises like Ho-oh, Togepi's reveal, and Snubull, Marill, and Donphan. Compared to all of that in one season, all of Johto just felt plain.

The main reason Kanto was so epic was because they packed so much material in one season. So many new Pokemon of the day, even ones that Who's That Pokemon didn't have room for, along with the Pokerap, where you had to learn the identities of so many Pokemon (who were ALL brand new) at once at a super fast pace, and rewatch it multiple times untill you have all 150 from all five parts memorized.

This was also justified because, by the time we got the first season in America, Gen I itself was on its last lifeline and Gen II was in development. In fact, Pokemon Red/Green was out a couple of years before it became popular enough to receive an anime.

But of course, once Gen II officially landed, it would be a long while before we would see Gen III. And we only had 100 new Pokemon (a few were already early birds in Kanto and the Orange Islands), yet we had 3 seasons to kill, so most of the time went into filler, repeat Pokemon, and recycled plots.........and Ash still lost the Johto League, but managed to defeat his childhood rival.

So yeah, that's how and why Season 1 was so epic, and how things declined. I will mentioned how we went from Advanced Generation to now in comparison to Season 1 at a later time.
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  #8    
Old April 14th, 2015 (05:47 AM). Edited April 15th, 2015 by Famon.
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Pokemon Anime Jump the Shark when the Writer decide to make Pokemon Everyone Show instate of ''Ash show'' !

I know there are Animes that focus on every single character But Pokemon ain't one of Them.
Pokemon is the type of Anime that depend on how the Protagonist is handled ! Its a Protagonist-centric Anime .
It doesn't matter if the show has better gag or Character interaction if the main character is treated like a crap .
Example : Original Series immense Success over BW series failure .
Every person who watched Original series know that Original Series didn't really focus on Brock , Misty or Gary .
The series were completely focus on Ash while other character seem to exist only for him.
While BW Series focus on everyone except Ash ! Every character of the series were treated much better then Ash.
Yet , Everyone likes Original series over BW Series ! Nobody complain about the lack of development of other character in the series.
It because Pokemon always meant to be a ''Ash Show'' and we knew that as a Kid So we didn't complain back then.
Kids Anime has to be Simple! When So Writer start to focus on everyone Goal , The show became kind of complicated for Kids.
Since the story start to focus on 3 different goal of 3 different people .
Kids had no idea what Pokemon was about anymore !

The Best thing to do , Is to focus on Ash & his 2 rival with 2 other Kalo starter saving the world together.
Because Ash & his rival share the same goal , The story will become more focus and simple for Kids.
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Old April 14th, 2015 (06:57 AM).
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You spelt Johto wrong, and also its series not serie.

Anyway, I don't see why you have Johto there since NOBODY thinks that's when the anime went terrible. Also in my opinion the anime started to go downhill during DP, but it was still watchable (which is why I voted it) but the BW saga, just UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Seriously BW was boring as hell, it has too much filler and too many episodes.
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Old April 14th, 2015 (10:02 AM).
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Quote originally posted by TheFlygon:
You spelt Johto wrong, and also its series not serie.

Anyway, I don't see why you have Johto there since NOBODY thinks that's when the anime went terrible. Also in my opinion the anime started to go downhill during DP, but it was still watchable (which is why I voted it) but the BW saga, just UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Seriously BW was boring as hell, it has too much filler and too many episodes.
Please leave the Grammar Squat at home.

By the way a LOT of reviews say the Johto was a terrible saga, coming up with no less than 50% filler episodes, which is outrageous amount. It of course "did not jump the shark" as it was too early. And the Advanced Generation was a total reboot.
The problem is, I think Pokemon was never a good show! Ye, people as young kids watched the Original Series, likely for that was the only show they could watch (and for the marketing campaign).
Then they abandoned for too much repetition topped the show what was lame from the start to start with during the Advanced Generation's beginning. They didn't realised Misty went fromthe show for good, they though she just went for vacation until next season.
Then they still came back, inspired by the memories when Diamond and Pearl started. That's why people keep mentioning Dawn (as good companion). Likely she was nothing special, just as good as Misty or whatever, accidently she was the character they actually saw in the show. But as the series did not improve, especially not to the level of its fame, people left again while Diamond and Pearl still lasted.
Then came Black&White, which likely only those remember who remained with the show, and they say it was bad just because noone else actually watched the show anymore, and it became uncomfortable. Especially as it had very few episodes.Advanced Generations had 146+47 = 193, D&P had 191, B&W had 144 (ca. 50 less then AG or DP, what is an entire season length).
XY came back again after the creators noticed the (new) deflation, and made another big marketing campaign, I can imagine based on rumour-spreading about how good the show is "again". Most probably nothing changed, the show is the very same, at worst case scenario it is at the hundreds of selfreboot, there is no chance any new idea will come, not to mention renewal and being ever as good in the once-very young kids' memory.

Face it, pokemon was never good. It likely can thank its success to be the very first MMO with its "play it with your friend's gameboy attached via cable" concept, and massive initial marketing.
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Old April 14th, 2015 (07:52 PM).
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Quote originally posted by twillight:
Please leave the Grammar Squat at home.

By the way a LOT of reviews say the Johto was a terrible saga, coming up with no less than 50% filler episodes, which is outrageous amount. It of course "did not jump the shark" as it was too early. And the Advanced Generation was a total reboot.
The problem is, I think Pokemon was never a good show! Ye, people as young kids watched the Original Series, likely for that was the only show they could watch (and for the marketing campaign).
Then they abandoned for too much repetition topped the show what was lame from the start to start with during the Advanced Generation's beginning. They didn't realised Misty went fromthe show for good, they though she just went for vacation until next season.
Then they still came back, inspired by the memories when Diamond and Pearl started. That's why people keep mentioning Dawn (as good companion). Likely she was nothing special, just as good as Misty or whatever, accidently she was the character they actually saw in the show. But as the series did not improve, especially not to the level of its fame, people left again while Diamond and Pearl still lasted.
Then came Black&White, which likely only those remember who remained with the show, and they say it was bad just because noone else actually watched the show anymore, and it became uncomfortable. Especially as it had very few episodes.Advanced Generations had 146+47 = 193, D&P had 191, B&W had 144 (ca. 50 less then AG or DP, what is an entire season length).
XY came back again after the creators noticed the (new) deflation, and made another big marketing campaign, I can imagine based on rumour-spreading about how good the show is "again". Most probably nothing changed, the show is the very same, at worst case scenario it is at the hundreds of selfreboot, there is no chance any new idea will come, not to mention renewal and being ever as good in the once-very young kids' memory.

Face it, pokemon was never good. It likely can thank its success to be the very first MMO with its "play it with your friend's gameboy attached via cable" concept, and massive initial marketing.
Well wait a second here,I'm probably guessing you are not a real Pokemon Fan. At least Pokemon Fans will say that its somewhat good...

But anyways,DP is probably the best series after OS.DP actually showed that Ash kinda matured up.Look at his battle skills and strategies there (I guess you haven't yet started the DP Series). Look at his team.DP Team is THE BEST Ash EVER had.He finally decided to evolve his Pokemon and actually tried to win the league seriously. The first time he reached Top 4,but thanks to our dear Tobias using those "Legends".....Ash had to leave.BUT he at least defeated Darkrai and Latios.Tobias was known to breeze through the Gym Leaders and Trainers using ONLY his Darkrai.So I'll say,Ash did Awesome.
Dawn was pretty good,she had a real "goal" unlike May who wasn't even sure what to do.Dawn knew what she was doing.Dawn is probably 2nd best PokeGirl.At least she used good stratagies that actually made a little sense....She had a more girly personality,unlike Misty or Iris,even May.

BW though,was actually awful,I have to agree many people left watching the anime,but the anime itself was awful.Actually,many people started to watch the anime again,as DP actually gave some hope of Ash reaching the final or winning it.I dont know where to start.Pikachu losing to Snivy,Trip,Cameron(I REALLY dont need to mention Cameron),Ash becoming a complete kid even after maturing a little in DP,losing to Cameron in a 5 VS 6 battle in the league etc etc...Dawns reappearance was completely point,as Unova doesn't have any Contests. Cilan was not-so-bad at first,but later on he just became boring and repetive. Iris was actually,a good character,funny at least.But here "free" dragonite was actually....bad. Ash didn't even get a chance to catch a Pseudo Legendary,leave alone one of the strongest non-legendary Pokemon.Decolora arc was 99.99% a filler,nothing really exciting. BW had some good stuff,but bad stuff weighs more.

I'll say the anime Jumped to shark during the AG series,recovering a little in DP,again falling Badly in BW.XY is getting a little,just a little better.Hopefully we'll get better results in XY.
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Old April 14th, 2015 (10:36 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Latis93:
Well wait a second here,I'm probably guessing you are not a real Pokemon Fan. At least Pokemon Fans will say that its somewhat good...

I'll say the anime Jumped to shark during the AG series,recovering a little in DP,again falling Badly in BW. XY is getting a little,just a little better.Hopefully we'll get better results in XY.
The AG-series was waaaay better than the original series. It only suffered from being Total Reboot, and awful storytelling at Ash's last battle in the Hoenn League.
Compare this to the OS, which bleeds through its skin: each and every character is overrepetitive, including Brock and Misty. The story most of the time goes nowhere, filled with fillers, Ash is even unrecognisable wether he still even exist at all during Johto. There is a lot of nonsense happening, contradictions, and lack of originality copying other shows.

I had to check what Ash's team will be in DP, and as I suspected, his team suxxor unevolved team still. Yes, it has 3 fully evolved pokemon, BUT there is still pikachu (tier 2 instead of 3), gible (tier 1 instead of tier 3), and buizel (which can only evolve once, and didn't even do that). This team is crappy.
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Old April 15th, 2015 (10:20 PM). Edited April 15th, 2015 by DBZ fan.
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When we divide pokemon sagas individually, some were good, some bad some great in terms of story, development, utilization of main characters, atmosphere or creativity.

Hiowever if we judge pokemon anime as one big unity, journey set in one timeline, space and conrinuity?

I would say pokemon anime started to lose its destination and path it used to follow once Misty was removed from main cast.

Misty removal didn't just make this show lose great deal of unforced comedy, tension, clash and emotional touch this character deivered. Through her hotheaded, sarcastic, passionarte, cawring and mother like personality keeping Ash,. Brock and others in check. Serving as moral com'pass in main cast. Knowing how to pull out anger and agitation from others leading to amusing conflicts, how to establish strong friendship with others helping them to find themselves in romance or encourage to keep trying and do their best like she did with Brock being complete and complex as character bringing lot of turbulent turmoils and colorful interactions within cast,

Accompanied with her unique pokemon, original goals of becoming water pokemon master showing whole world how beautiful and charming water pokemon are. Exuding with mystery and giving us insight in legends about ancient sea spirits and mystical water artifacts which allowed that water masters understand their hearts and use them to full potential.

Or very strong and multidimensional sense for action having lot of untapped potential to be done so much more with character.

No, Misty removal when looking at things long term wise and bigger picture caused pokemon anime to lose its own heart. Artistic value and integrity in treating pokemon series like other shonen long running series. Such as One Piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail, DRagon Ball, Sailor Moon, Inuyasha etc, etc.

Who have stable well established main cast, consistent story which slowly and delicately builds on itself adding more depth and excitement to adventure aspect and personality of main protagonists. Consistent continuity which maintains contact with past, give insight to younger generations what events preceeded to current stage of maturity and experience main characters went through and how this affected journey and future as whole.

Ever since Misty was replaced by end of Johto pokemon started to lose its spirit and originality it used to have initially. Being supposed to be show with big continuity set in same timeline and universe, consistsent group of characters and on going plot based journey where characters and main hero dont stagnate or suffer rests. But use past experiences and knowledge acquired before in new situations working toward reaching final destination and promoting thrill of exploring new worlds, new people, traditions, pokemon and mysteries in pokemon world. Like One Piece for example does with Luffy and its crew.
Ever since Misty left and cast changing started it discouraged people from growing attached to main characters wanting to continue enjoy in its flud lively, enjoyable personality, see him/her go in new adventures and advance toward achieving their dreams.

Because imagine you care and enjoy when writers flesh out story of character making you learn more about him, growing as person. You grew to like his personality, pokemon and background. Your eagerly awaiting to have him learn new things and advance his goals, establish friendship with Ash and others bonding with them. That character on large part defines pokemon anime for you making thrill of journey, dynamic and storyline more exciting, richer through his/her presence.
But when writers finally made you emotionally invest in chsaracter, feel you could relate to him, give you gist of what his dreams involve starting to develop and mature. Just when they caught your interest and made you feel content that his/her story started to move somewhere they drop that character unfinished with potential for further growth ending wasted?

That same character you enjoyed in becomes abandoned and reduced at best to opening sequences and flashbacks disappearing from face of earth after one or at best two short cameos after departure?

Knowing there would be no point to invest in any main character(beside Ash) since writers would just replace them with unfinished stories and potential to go on more complex, creative stage of character development. With their impact and importance being forgotten about fading away.

It resulted in Ash stagnating never growing on more notable level in coming closer toward his dream at least passing first step.
Due to writers being able to get away with it and in extreme cases cause even soft resets(like Unova series did),.
Due to not existing one compact main cast whose formed relationships, history, experience, maturity sand influence they left on each other would translate itself to new region Ash travel through. Attesting to previous struggles, success and achievements Ash and co fulfilled before being vector on which future is built. Thus providing familiar faces with who viewers could associate pokemon anime promoting strong following having significance behind it.

Caused story to have broken continuity with little to no ties to past, make all those strong bonds and moral values developed between Ash and friends mean nothing in end when not even simple phone call happens after they are replaced let alone meeting in person.

That every plots, subplots and development started in previous region became irrelevant for future because of previous characters and events which influenced Ash and pokemon universe never being brought up.
Along with any started growth in emotional sense, hard work we saw Ash friends doing in achieving their dreams(like May, Misty, Dawn, Brock, Iris etc), all those lessons, insecurities and rough times they went through never being showed on screen.

Having zero importance and ending as nothing more than joke, since build up of started work writers made about character has no chance to see light of day. Because new characters who will end up unexplored and open stories will continue to come, while pushing to side older ones who have appeal, charm and so many things left unanswered in story to bring new fresh twist to pokemon anime and go fiorward.


Some may say im giving too much merit to one fictional character in this anime. But its not just character, but rather complete change of formula and image pokemon anime used to have developed around itself losing its direction. And how Misty departture started negative trend of exaggerated cast replacing hurting pokemon series continuity and integroty as storyline as wholre,
Having subpar 20 minute marketing gimmick nowadays(it was always there to promote games but this didnt came to expression so much back than), rather than creative, overarching memorable story having defined direction to follow and take its protagonists toward with something coming out of it eventually.

Quote originally posted by twillight:
The AG-series was waaaay better than the original series. It only suffered from being Total Reboot, and awful storytelling at Ash's last battle in the Hoenn League.
Compare this to the OS, which bleeds through its skin: each and every character is overrepetitive, including Brock and Misty. The story most of the time goes nowhere, filled with fillers, Ash is even unrecognisable wether he still even exist at all during Johto. There is a lot of nonsense happening, contradictions, and lack of originality copying other shows.
Depends for who.
Because i still think in terms of comedy, emotion, creativity of plots,groupo dynamic and sense of synergy prevailing in interaction between companions original series treated this things far more adequatelly.

Its also interesting you say main cast was "repetitive" when Misty was known for very wide stream of emotions as her personality unfold out gradually with time going through significant character devepment emotionally(regarding conflicts with family, feelings for Ash, born determination and passion to become recognizable water expert mastering their use with encounter with people like Sakura, Lorelei from E4, Marina, Trinity, Andreas etc, helping strengthening her belief and love for this specie or in developing better appreciation for her pokemon like Psyduck for example). Growing visibly attached to her friends starting to view them in light of her " family" being willing to do anything to protect them(including risking her life) and help out when in doubt being clearly upset more than any other girl afterwards in leaving them behind.

Or how much in reality Ash grew, became more resprectful and selfcritic by time Johto reached its dusk stage under influence of Brock and Misty,. Becoming stronger trainer and giving him required flare and decisiveness to defeat nhis long term rival Gary, accomplish better result at pokemon league and develop better understanding of his own pokemon(like Charizard for example knowing that hes doing right thing in leaving him at Charific valley despite being heartbroken).

Arguably even Brock grew becoming more empathic, prpotective and copnsiderate as person compared to rathger cold, stoic demeanour initially. Becoming more supportive and caring for Ash and Misty. Often talking with later one about romance, love issues, their families or iking to joke together on Ash behalf(not out of malice but endearment showing how much friendship and group chemistry grew). While delivering lot of moral support and motivation for Ash to develop better strategies and gave him backbone, reassurance how if something goes wrong he can count on him.
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Old April 15th, 2015 (10:56 PM).
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Quote originally posted by DBZ fan:
Depends for who.
Because i still think in terms of comedy, emotion, creativity of plots,groupo dynamic and sense of synergy prevailing in interaction between companions original series treated this things far more adequatelly.

Its also interesting you say main cast was "repetitive" when Misty was known for very wide stream of emotions as her personality unfold out gradually with time going through significant character devepment emotionally(regarding conflicts with family, feelings for Ash, born determination and passion to become recognizable water expert mastering their use with encounter with people like Sakura, Lorelei from E4, Marina, Trinity, Andreas etc, helping strengthening her belief and love for this specie or in developing better appreciation for her pokemon like Psyduck for example). Growing visibly attached to her friends starting to view them in light of her " family" being willing to do anything to protect them(including risking her life) and help out when in doubt being clearly upset more than any other girl afterwards in leaving them behind.

Or how much in reality Ash grew, became more resprectful and selfcritic by time Johto reached its dusk stage under influence of Brock and Misty,. Becoming stronger trainer and giving him required flare and decisiveness to defeat nhis long term rival Gary, accomplish better result at pokemon league and develop better understanding of his own pokemon(like Charizard for example knowing that hes doing right thing in leaving him at Charific valley despite being heartbroken).

Arguably even Brock grew becoming more empathic, prpotective and copnsiderate as person compared to rathger cold, stoic demeanour initially. Becoming more supportive and caring for Ash and Misty. Often talking with later one about romance, love issues, their families or iking to joke together on Ash behalf(not out of malice but endearment showing how much friendship and group chemistry grew). While delivering lot of moral support and motivation for Ash to develop better strategies and gave him backbone, reassurance how if something goes wrong he can count on him.
AG had intergrity while OS had contradiction and undecidedness.
AG had comedy, breaking 4th walls, puns, while OS had Victribell chewing James' head.
May had the unique REAL goal to become a top-coordinator while Misty had the NONEXISTING goal to be "pokemon master".
May had the same function as Misty, just Misty had no character, randomly switching personality with no consistency at all. She was mostly bored from adventure with pokemons which had zero use. Heck, Misty did absolutely nothing to become anything after season 1, occasionally stalking after pokemons she thought are "cute". Which May did to be a better performer with variety.
Psyduck was annoyingly repetitive, and shown Misty like a second Ash: a terrible trainer under whose hand no pokemon ever evolves. Heck, she never even managed to teach swimming Psyduck!
Misty never got attached to anyone. She was just hanging around like a hippy.

And don't even start Brock. He gradually became more and more creepy and stalking to the point he had to be written out, because even physical restrain was too little to preven him from raping the next girl!
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Old April 16th, 2015 (12:42 AM). Edited April 16th, 2015 by DBZ fan.
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Quote originally posted by twillight:
AG had intergrity while OS had contradiction and undecidedness.
AG had comedy, breaking 4th walls, puns, while OS had Victribell chewing James' head.
May had the unique REAL goal to become a top-coordinator while Misty had the NONEXISTING goal to be "pokemon master".
May had the same function as Misty, just Misty had no character, randomly switching personality with no consistency at all. She was mostly bored from adventure with pokemons which had zero use. Heck, Misty did absolutely nothing to become anything after season 1, occasionally stalking after pokemons she thought are "cute". Which May did to be a better performer with variety.
Psyduck was annoyingly repetitive, and shown Misty like a second Ash: a terrible trainer under whose hand no pokemon ever evolves. Heck, she never even managed to teach swimming Psyduck!
Misty never got attached to anyone. She was just hanging around like a hippy.

And don't even start Brock. He gradually became more and more creepy and stalking to the point he had to be written out, because even physical restrain was too little to preven him from raping the next girl!
Your answer just proves how you either:
-didnt understood destination Original series as anime tried to reach .
-or you somehow overlooked character depth and complexity of personality, chemistry between protagonists etc occuring there.

You say Misty had no personality, no dreams, no development?
Try again.
Because as far as depth of characterization goes being instilled with lot of human lika flaws quirks and strong expressions, uniqueness of someone dreams and ambitions, endearing backstory making you feel sorry for character as well competence in reacting quickly under pressured situations Misty honestly imo blows other girls like May out of water. And while she may have not received same development, in emotional, persobnality sense she grew and matured alot since early days with growth being steady, gradual and believable. Becoming more opoen minded, confident in her abilities and playful as person. While retaining that silly aspect of her being flirty outgoing and curious sometime ending embarassed, hotheaded nature, sarcastic smartass side as well big passion for hobbies, battling and water pokemon adding for strong, compelling character.

Your remark of Misty switching moods is called someone having multidimensional personality not ending as one note collection of running gags. Something Misty was praised for being described as well rounded and relatable female heroine.
As analysis performed by other experts and professional writers, research conducted in making survey among pokemon viewers about his likability and impact he had as fictional character on series pubvlished through books and articles revealed.

Scoring her run of 5 years in pokemon anime positively.
For those not familiar with it:

Spoiler:- critic review:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Critical reception
The book The Japanification of Children's Popular Culture described Misty's portrayal in the anime as a mother figure, calling her a "nurturing component" for the original trio of herself, Ash and Brock.[5] It further described her as an "unusually 'complete' girl of the cartoon world", noting both her feminine sentimentality and her "explosive rage".[6] Anime Classics Zettai!: 100 Must-See Japanese Animation Masterpieces praised the character as being "particularly nuanced" and described her as contributing heavily to the series' appeal.[7] Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon stated that the anime focused on Ash, Misty was a distinctly significant character especially to young female consumers, neither "butch" nor "dizzily feminine", seemingly "carefully constructed to appeal to preadolescent girls".[8] It added that unlike other aggressive female characters in the series, Misty did not sacrifice her femininity to succeed, making the character further popular with young American women, a contrast to Japanese children who focused more on the individual Pokémon species to identify with.[9]

In studies on the reactions boys and girls had to the concept of Misty as a heroine in the series, girls accepted it and were eager to associate themselves with the character,[10][11] while boys attempted to belittle her efforts.[10] On the other hand, children of both genders felt the character alongside Brock gave Ash a sense of identity and moral support, which researchers attributed to the concept of group identity.[12] In another study, children were shown to associate the attributes of attractiveness and aggressiveness, while college students described the character as romantic.[13] Pikachu's Global Adventure additionally stated Misty also served as a source of non-threatening sexuality for both older and younger male viewers, though the context of such was presented in a more subtle for North American localizations of the series.[14]

[edit] Notes and references
5. ^ West, Mark I. (2008). The Japanification of Children's Popular Culture. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 58. ISBN 0810851210.
6. ^ West, Mark I. (2008). The Japanification of Children's Popular Culture. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 78. ISBN 0810851210.
7. ^ Camp, Brian; Julie Davis (May 2007). Anime Classics Zettai!: 100 Must-See Japanese Animation Masterpieces. Stone Bridge Press. p. 283. ISBN 9781933330228.
8. ^ Tobin, Joseph Jay (2004). Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon. Duke University Press. p. 21. ISBN 0-822-33287-6.
9. ^ Tobin, Joseph Jay (2004). Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon. Duke University Press. pp. 231-232, 282. ISBN 0-822-33287-6.
10. ^ a b Tobin, Joseph Jay (2004). Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon. Duke University Press. p. 176. ISBN 0-822-33287-6.
11. ^ Katch, Jane (2004). They Don't Like Me: Lessons on Bullying and Teasing from a Preschool Classroom. Beacon Press. ISBN 0807023213.
12. ^ Tobin, Joseph Jay (2004). Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon. Duke University Press. pp. 169-170, 177. ISBN 0-822-33287-6.
13. ^ Ogletree, Shirley M.; Cristal N. Martinez, Trent R. Turner and Brad Mason (2004). "Pokémon: Exploring the Role of Gender". Sex Roles (Springer Netherlands) 50, Numbers 11-12 / June, 2004: 851-859. doi:10.1023/BERS.0000029102.66384.a2. ISSN (Print) 1573-2762 (Online) 0360-0025 (Print) 1573-2762 (Online).
14. ^ Tobin, Joseph Jay (2004). Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokémon. Duke University Press. pp. 284. ISBN 0-822-33287-6.


You say Misty had no goal?
Completely ignoring uniqueness and lot of unexplored potential Misty water pokemon master career hold and possibility to become E4 member one day living up to Lorelei standards. Bringing during her heyday completely fresh and different way of trainer class into anime aside from generic one Ash presented.

Because facts dont lie and Whirl Cup within Whirl Islands, other water experts like Siebold, Wallace, Kyle, Lorelei, with every E4 member being classified as type master. Whole lore about sea spirits, title Alpha oMega of water pokemon, diving deeper in what water master carries with itself. Meaning to be strongest water expert in world achieving perfect synchronization with them serve as indisputable proof how water master career is perfectly legit.

And existing goal being less vague than Ash pokemon master quest actually(since in games type masters actually are mentioned unlike its case wuth general term of being master).

Arguably funnier pokemon too. None of May, Dawn, Iris pokemon gave me so much laugh like Psyduck or excitement to see it battle like badass Staryu(especially in in third movie for example) or Poliwhirl who showed lot of emotion and personality being highly devoted and loyal to its trainer not wanting to fail it down.

Not to mention ignoring fact that Misty did not needed lot of battles and tournaments to be active. Saving other people lives, standing up for weak, stopping pokemon and villains on multiple occasions on her own because of her sense for justice and strong moral beliefs not letting others to mess up with her and her friends.

Played huge role in helping Ash to stand on his feet as rainer, often stood up for others teaching them how to fight for themselves, saved other people lives(without her Ash would die quite a fewe tines like in movie, when Vileplume poisoned him, when he almost fall of cliff and had several achievements.

Winning Princess festival, tournament playing important wedge in progrsssing her story wanting to prove to hersewlf and sisters how shes not "failure at life" as they tend to think. Won Balloon race, Alto Mare race, Seaking catching championship.
Came top 8 in prestigue Whirl Cup tournament which gathered all kind of water experts from all parts of world. Played various roles such as mermaid drawing paralel to Ariel in underwater ballet, acted like investigatior proving Ash and Brock innocence feeing them from jail in Butch, Cassidy episode, who stole Ash Phanphy egg pointing out officer Jenny to clues of breaking in pokemon center. Displayed great deduction skills and planning ahead coming up with idea how to carry Snorlax over the mountain to other side of island preventing to eat all food. Found way out of forest filed with ghosts by befriending Hoot Hoot etc.I could continue on,

And i dont know about you but i dont consider someone who got recognized for her adaptability and skills by several professionals out there(like Trinity and Harrison, gym leader Dorian, Pia inspector Joy, Marina, Koga etc) as "weak trainer. Someone who was one of few companions defeating Ash in legit battle, won Princess tournament, Seaking championship, placed top 8 in prestigue event like Whirl Cup as "weak". Or someone who had lot of understanding and wisdom about pokemon knowing how to reach giant Tentacruel heart stropping him from destroying town, using skillfuly wild Golduc in battle, earned Marill thrust after saving its life and later Gyarados.

Restoring Cerulean gym reputation.

So much about claim how "Misty achieved nothing" or was "weak trainer" ignoring main message this anime promotes; how evolution isnt everything and pokemon doesnt need to evolve to be powerful.
Or how Misty "didnt grew attached to anyone" with her shift in behavior becoming more open minded, caring and compassionate to Ash and Brock speaking volumes of how close bond she established with them.

You said AG had more consistency?
Maybe in terms of character development and construction of story yes which is understandable. Given how after years of building experience it was to expect writers becoming better polished in handling things properly in technical sense.

But as far as continuity goes, adventure aspect which is supposed to act as one big story set in same universe building on itself and stable cast which would create brand around themselves providing identity to it.

This stopped becoming reality once Johto ended and constant character replacing started.
We had chance that pokemon under mr. Takeshi Shudo jurisdiction to turn pokemon in stable anime with substantial rtory. Where each protagonist is considered as irreplaceable, crucial to pokemon story. Originally he planned that Ash, Misty and Brock are permanent main protagonists exploring world of pokemon, that each of them advance forward in dreams whose stories are intertwined, who keep ties to history, dive deeper in their thoughts and motivations being part of some bigger plot. That Team Rocket are not just comedy gimmick being threatening and relevant to anime series on greater scale. With his intention being to turn pokemon in deep, well written anime aimed at all kind of viewers, not just preschool kids.

Back than it was planned to aside from bringing new characters, to turn pokemon series in something similar which Naruto or One Piece does.
Adding new characters, but also not abandoning their classic, original characters taking them in new, unseen directions keeping people excited and grateful that their favorites are explored more coming closer toward their dreams. Enjoying in learning new things about them, gaining new, complex dimension to themselves.

With pokemon anime having its own ideas and priorities to follow allowing writers to be more creative and experiment with their own ideas. Where games were used as additional source of material to embellish stiry and various challenges main cast and antagonists were took through. Rather than anime becoming completely revolved around them losing its liberty and value of unpredictability like its case now.

p.s. All in all i disagree completely with your description of OS and characters coming from that era. Making it seem like we watched two entirely different anime when in reality its same one were talking about.
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  #16    
Old April 16th, 2015 (11:04 AM).
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I didn't pick any one of them. I just don't think the quality of the anime declined since season 1. If the quality did change, it was for the better at the very least. I liked the first season for sure, but I simply do not feel the reason to critique the new seasons. Bob said it all.
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  #17    
Old April 17th, 2015 (08:58 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Kid Sonic:
Well here's a specific answer.

The anime jumped the shark during Johto when they had 50 less pkemon than the first generation and three seasons. Johto itself was fatigued with rinse and repeat Team Rocket encounter. We're talking a big difference from the beginnings of Kanto, which had the flock of angry Spearow, the Beedrill swarm, stoic Brock's giant intimidating Onix, an OP Sandshrew, the school of hard knocks, the giant Dragonite, Lt. Surge and his Raichu, Team Rocket's raid on the S.S. Anne, the ship sinking, Gyarados, the island of giant robot Pokemon, SABRINA, the Tower of Terror, Primeape, Muk, Porygon's cyberspace, the Kangaskhan herd, the herd of Exeggutor, the prehistoric Pokemon, Mewtwo, etc. Plus special surprises like Ho-oh, Togepi's reveal, and Snubull, Marill, and Donphan. Compared to all of that in one season, all of Johto just felt plain.

The main reason Kanto was so epic was because they packed so much material in one season. So many new Pokemon of the day, even ones that Who's That Pokemon didn't have room for, along with the Pokerap, where you had to learn the identities of so many Pokemon (who were ALL brand new) at once at a super fast pace, and rewatch it multiple times untill you have all 150 from all five parts memorized.

This was also justified because, by the time we got the first season in America, Gen I itself was on its last lifeline and Gen II was in development. In fact, Pokemon Red/Green was out a couple of years before it became popular enough to receive an anime.

But of course, once Gen II officially landed, it would be a long while before we would see Gen III. And we only had 100 new Pokemon (a few were already early birds in Kanto and the Orange Islands), yet we had 3 seasons to kill, so most of the time went into filler, repeat Pokemon, and recycled plots.........and Ash still lost the Johto League, but managed to defeat his childhood rival.

So yeah, that's how and why Season 1 was so epic, and how things declined. I will mentioned how we went from Advanced Generation to now in comparison to Season 1 at a later time.
This sums up my thoughts pretty well. Even as a kid, I thought Johto was a HUGE step down from Kanto/Orange. The plot went at a snail's pace, there was loads of boring, pointless filler, and entire storylines were dropped without explanation (*cough*GS Ball*cough*), among other things. I'll admit that the final "Master Quest" season improved things somewhat, but alas, it was too little, too late.

Even the characters, themselves, became dull shadows of their former selves, especially Brock, who should've stayed with Prof. Ivy, if you ask me. He had already started to wear out his welcome at the very end of Kanto, and he became a complete joke as soon as he was brought back. (How many more times was I supposed to laugh at him drool over the same old Jenny and Joy clones again and again? )

However, the biggest mistake Johto probably made was bringing Ash back. He was originally intended to be the anime counterpart of Red, the Gen 1 protagonist, so his story really should've ended with Orange. He had no relevance to Johto (as well as Misty and Brock, for that matter), so whatever connections to the games the anime ever had were completely lost here.

It would've been much wiser for them to finish Ash's story (and Misty's, for that matter) in Orange and replace him with Jimmy as the protagonist in Johto. Jimmy would've also had two new traveling companions, preferably Janine and Falkner (who, unlike Misty and Brock, are better connected to Gen 2), and both Silver and later, Marina, would've appeared as his rivals. Then, Jimmy would've been replaced with May in Hoenn (and Janine and Falkner with new traveling companions), and so on. It still wouldn't have been game accurate, but at least, it would've had some relevance to the games instead of turning into the Franchise Zombie it became, with Ash never aging and never growing as a character.

Sadly, though, I think the extreme (and very undeserved) backlash a certain Pokémon watcher received when he replaced Brock in Orange made the anime's writers scared to make any drastic changes to the cast, especially something as drastic as replacing Ash, and Johto suffered as a result. (Even if it didn't stop them from unceremoniously dumping Misty at the end of Johto, anyways. )
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  #18    
Old April 18th, 2015 (10:20 PM). Edited April 18th, 2015 by DBZ fan.
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To BettyNewbie:

Johto had its flaws,but i reatched it some time ago and it had more to like than dislike imo. Misty and Brock got more screen time and battled more than they did in Kanto, we had some great arcs like Whirl islands and its cup, Red Gyarados, Larvitar, mini story arc with Clair, dragon temple and Dragonite and Silver conference was one of best leagues pokemon had imo. As for fillers most of them were actually funny bringing entertainment Like "Heartbreak of Brock", "Hook,line and Stinker", "Hocus Pokemon" , "Snubull Snobery", "Fortune Hunters",One trick Phoney etc.

Dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock slightly changed but they still felt like lively family in Johto being enjoyable imo.
Something i perceived as positive change with their friendship actually growing getting over their introduction phase allowing to take their relationship on higher level.

Becoming more attached to each other, already knowing their weak and strong point giving out impression of three strongly connected friends exploring new regions and pokemon msturing and evolving as trainers and persons. This can be especially noticed in great deal of concern and compassion when either of them was in danger such as Misty falling from cliff with Marill or being separated from group by Ursaring, when Brock was sick with Ash and Misty taking care of him realizing how much Brock means to them, when Ash was injured or went in dangerous situations to battle Tr with Misty crying.

Or in more lighthearted tone and endearing dynamic present between them containing more sarcasm and smart alec jokes, motivation and moral support they provided to each other supporting Brock when meeting with old friend Suzie, when Ash was saddened over leaving older pokemon behind, when Misty competed against others etc,. Or in talking about their dreams, giving each other advices about romance(mostly Misty to Brock), battling, how to train pokemon etc.

And if "Gotta Catch Ya Later!" didnt emphasized on unity, close affection and understanding being visibly high between those three. Much, much higher than it was ever case in Kanto, than well im afraid nothing would.


Not to mention if there was something good Master Quest achieved was in returning MIsty back on right track feeling relevant, much more enjoyable and stronger character ever since Whirl Islands adenture and onward started. Of course her abrupt leaving with no closure to story and many uncleared things left sour taste in mouth. But this season still did some great justice to this character, but Ash as well becoming more confident in his trainer abilities. Making bettter success at league and making amends with some of conficts which were burning for a long time(childhood rival Gary).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also lets be real in here:
Johto problems DIDN'T arised from Ash, Misty and Brock being kept as main cast. Problems came from writers at that time not being sure themselves in what direction to take anime having several conflicting ideas causing lot of disagreements and frictions between them. As brought up by head writer for OS Takeshi Shudo in his blogs.


Who as head writer wanted to explore on pokemon origins and how they became predominant specie on planet. Even having in plans to dedicate 3rd movie to this as climax by reviving prehystoric T rex fossil adding dimension of realism to whole pokemon anime. Mr. Shudo wanted to develop Ash and his friends Misty, Brock in more complex profound way. But directors and those at higher positions rejected his ideas one by one.


There was also GS ball which was supposed to turn in giant storyline arc covering middle of journey through Johto . Featuring Celebii through it, time travel and crisis coming from it with main cast being intended to play vital role in everything.

But for whatever reason this idea got scrapped as well causing writers to hit wall. Given how they didnt had back up plan developed yet taking some time to reconsider their plans and what to do with main characters and plot.


At very least what Johto had and every future generation lacked was Consistency. As oppose to subsequent regions.
It was only time i get feeling of pokemon journey being treated like actual sequel. Transferring started plots from before. Like GS ball, Ash just recently gaining thrust from Charizard, bond which got strengthen with Misty, their careers of becoming top breeder, master, water master etc.

Aside how things ended up and all writers mistakes commited there, it felt like it was continuation of one big adventure. There were no resets like BW(Unova series did in worst possible way), no sudden amnesia strucking main protagonist, no rehash of previous careers and personalities(like it was case with Dawn and Iris copying May/Misty dreams and occuipations in life).

With show feeling it still has identity and destination in which writers wanted to take story and characters once urge for new "eye candies" after every few years train started to roll.

Hoenn was still prerty good because of much more referencs, in flesh returns of older characters and chronicles with past and unresolved development of older characters not being forgotten.

But from DP and onwards was time when this things took 180% shift beginning to change for worse.. Witnessing to anime known as pokemon famous for shallow story, repetition and no identity since continuity and connections to past are all but existing.

Reason why Ash was kept alongside Misty and Brock for Johto. Was because originally writers wanted to treat pokemon anime in similar vein like One Piece, Naruto, Sailor Moon, Bleach, Fairy Tail etc, etc kind of anime are. As one big continuous story where main characters develop over long period of time.


To be treated as its own separate media with different storyline and more unpredictability with some of their own imagination being injected into it: having relatable cast with who people could symphatize and connect to rooting for them to succeed. Have some sense of continuity and consistent storyline which draws inspiration and direction to move forward from previous events and everything in past which pushed characters and story to certain point, along with having sense of world building in telling adventure through eyes of permanent main stars and their goal which meet new people, exchange cultural differences with them, learn about new pokemon, tournaments and mysteries hidden in pokemon world just waiting to be discovered and told enriching on protagonist and we who follow him experience.

Pokemon directors wanted to have pokemon anime more independent in its own right. With games being used as source of material to enrich on already set up stable cast and story included in pokemon series having its own set of rules to follow. Instead of subjecting this media of entertainment completely to games and who is present in them or isn't necessarily.

Idea was scrapped leaving just Ash as part of equation in whole thing eventually as recognizable macot and driving force of pokemon series with who people identify this show.


But i wander. Would had it been bad if we had in pokemon like other long running shows do stable main cast which promotes strong continuity. And allows to emotionally invest in characters seeing them evolve, gain new fresh traits and charms about themselves, reach full potential and go on deeper, more sophisticated development.

Because this is what we could had if constant cast replacing didnt started and writers were more motivated in putting effort and care in developing main characters. Having one big, spectacular journey full of unexpected twists, groundebreaking directions and conflicts waiting to be overcomed with journey leading Ash and co somewhere.
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  #19    
Old April 19th, 2015 (06:29 AM).
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Quote originally posted by DBZ fan:
But from DP and onwards was time when this things took 180% shift beginning to change for worse.. Witnessing to anime known as pokemon famous for shallow story, repetition and no identity since continuity and connections to past are all but existing.
I’m going to argue this. DP was the series where Jindai returned, you had Haruka’s multi-episode cameo, the League featured cameos from some of Satoshi’s older Pokémon, there was the Rumika reappearance, that Raichu episode, and other, minor callbacks to things that happened before. It had about as much of a connection to past sagas as AG did, in that it tells its own stories but the characters aren’t completely unaware of things that happened before nor do they act inconsistently with the personas they’d established over the previous decade or so.

I get that you might not be a fan of the DP episodes, and that’s fine. But even if you prefer AG or OS, DP is very much in line with what came before. It’s no more ‘shallow’ than either of those series were (I don’t get that complaint, honestly. Pocket Monsters has never been a deep anime, in any incarnation), and I honestly thought what it did add - Satoshi vs. Shinji, Hikozaru, and Team Galactic - were the kind of interesting and well-done plots that previous sagas either never tried or just botched completely. Even Hikari’s arc and character development, even though they center around Contests again, differed from Haruka’s in enough ways that it’s not a rehash at all.

If there’s any place that this series jumps the shark, I don’t believe that it’d be with DP. It’s certainly not a perfect saga, and there are things that OS/AG do better, but the same could be said for both of those as well. But for the most part, Jouto-Sinnoh are pretty consistent with each other, with AG and DP both adding something new to their respective series that they can also be looked at on their own merits. And really, shouldn’t that be ideal? I don’t want a series that feels stale - which, and I know you don’t agree, is what I felt happened with the majority of Jouto - but I also don’t want BW.
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  #20    
Old April 19th, 2015 (09:30 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Lizardo:
I’m going to argue this. DP was the series where Jindai returned, you had Haruka’s multi-episode cameo, the League featured cameos from some of Satoshi’s older Pokémon, there was the Rumika reappearance, that Raichu episode, and other, minor callbacks to things that happened before. It had about as much of a connection to past sagas as AG did, in that it tells its own stories but the characters aren’t completely unaware of things that happened before nor do they act inconsistently with the personas they’d established over the previous decade or so.
I'll give you Pika and Goliath, maybe also Jessiebelle, but I'm not so sure about the others (plus, technically the only reason Ash's Johto team reappeared was because of HGSS. Had it not been for that series of remakes, we probably would never have gotten a reappearance from them). I'd probably have to say it IS inconsistent with older sagas though, considering Ash's Pikachu lost to several Pokémon it frankly should NOT have lost to after effectively manhandling a Regice (probably the worst of it was the second Paul battle where it lost to a Ursaring that wasn't even a veteran of one region yet. I could accept Pikachu's loss if it had been against Paul's Torterra, at least IT was closest to Pikachu's veteran level). And quite frankly, DP at least got something right by actually having Ash advance in his goal, even though BW flat out butchered it as a result, not to mention Pikachu losing from two legendaries (I'm sorry, but any Pokémon that could take down a Regice with minimal effort would have beating Legendaries be a synch for him, especially when Latias and Darkrai aren't even trio masters, never mind trio members).

Quote:
I get that you might not be a fan of the DP episodes, and that’s fine. But even if you prefer AG or OS, DP is very much in line with what came before. It’s no more ‘shallow’ than either of those series were (I don’t get that complaint, honestly. Pocket Monsters has never been a deep anime, in any incarnation), and I honestly thought what it did add - Satoshi vs. Shinji, Hikozaru, and Team Galactic - were the kind of interesting and well-done plots that previous sagas either never tried or just botched completely. Even Hikari’s arc and character development, even though they center around Contests again, differed from Haruka’s in enough ways that it’s not a rehash at all.
Actually, the original series did actually come pretty close to being "deep," considering there were plenty of fairly dark elements in there (like the St. Anne/Giant Pokémon arc, the Mewtwo Movie, Brock basically being a victim of Parental Abandonment, Ash getting "killed" by Ghost Pokémon, the Mewtwo Movie, Battle of the Badge, and all of that were definitely not really child-friendly material after all, and the Mewtwo movie in particular, at least in the Japanese version, dealt with existential themes, which ARE pretty deep, or at least heavy), and besides which, Takeshi Shudo did mention wanting it to be a series the whole family could enjoy rather than just preschoolers.

The only real distinction between Dawn and May's contests is that Dawn actually does feature dress-ups of the coordinators. Other than that, there really isn't any real difference between the two, so yeah, it is indeed a rehash, not to mention cheap to replace May (and I don't even like her), especially when Masamitsu Hidaka made it pretty clear that they're replacing all the girl characters for more "eyecandy."

As far as the topic overall, I'd say that it's a combination of Misty's departure and AG as a whole that resulted in a jumping of the shark. Misty due to their deciding afterwards to just replace all the girl characters for "eyecandy" (and later replacing everyone who isn't Ash). And for AG, well, for starters, this is the saga that began really denigrating the Gym Leaders to be little more than Jessie James and Meowth clones in terms of overall skillset (and what's even worse is that this was also just after they tastelessly removed Misty by making her a gym leader, which gave some really tasteless implications that they made Misty a GL specifically to make her weak). Sure, Gym Leaders aren't going to be stronger than the Elite 4, but that doesn't mean they should flat out lose to rookie Pokémon easily. Roxanne was forgivable since at least she lost to Pikachu, who is the only one on Ash's Hoenn team to be a confirmed veteran, and at least Brawley actually managed to beat Ash the first time around. Not the other GLs in Hoenn, though. And then there's the bit where Ash basically stayed at the same rank as Johto during the Hoenn League, which quite frankly is really sad (in fact, until BW came about, that was bar none the absolute worst league turnout Ash ever experienced). DP did slightly better by having Ash lose to the first few Gym Leaders and then fight them again, but ultimately it wasn't really enough, especially when the other half wasn't really a good determinator for whether the Gym Leaders were actually skilled thanks to Team Rocket interrupting the matches. And then BW had an even worse turnout than AG. I think XY came the closest since the original series to actually have the Gym Leaders be very skilled. Aside from the fact that Ash actually lost to most of the Gym Leaders the first time around, the Gym Leaders were also demonstrated to not be slouches at all (Korrina managed to have a 100-win streak as well as have a Mega Evolution for her Lucario, Grant managed to become a Battle Duke, and Viola did good enough at the Battle Chateau to make runner up to Grant), and even the two GLs so far to actually be beaten by Ash the first time around, Grant and Clemont, had a pretty justifiable reason for losing beforehand (Grant in particular really limited himself to two Pokémon while he allowed Ash to use all of his Pokémon team against him. Even the most skilled, veteran trainer would have difficulty when they are effectively ganged up, by rookies or otherwise.). Even you have to admit, DP really didn't do that good of a job with the Gym Leaders. I can tolerate the original series Gym Leaders since, Kanto aside, most of the GLs were beaten fairly and with some veterans (and even in Kanto, Misty's sisters aside, they actually were depicted as threats to Ash's team). It's funny, Kalos is based on France (and as you know the reputation of them, France is reputed to be weak since World War II), yet their gym leaders, barring possibly Kanto and Johto, actually were the best so far. I'd also mention Pokémon Contests as being another reason for AG being a jumping of the shark, because they aren't even necessary to completing the game and were blatantly only included as an excuse to advertise the games more fully (not to mention were disposable in the end anyways, as May ended up replaced by the time of DP with Dawn who just did her goal anyways, and then got removed altogether when it became apparent that Gen 5 won't feature Contests at all). Say what you will about Misty's Water Pokémon Master goal, at least THAT was a goal you could actually access the end credits of a game with.
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Old April 19th, 2015 (12:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Lizardo:
I’m going to argue this. DP was the series where Jindai returned, you had Haruka’s multi-episode cameo, the League featured cameos from some of Satoshi’s older Pokémon, there was the Rumika reappearance, that Raichu episode, and other, minor callbacks to things that happened before. It had about as much of a connection to past sagas as AG did, in that it tells its own stories but the characters aren’t completely unaware of things that happened before nor do they act inconsistently with the personas they’d established over the previous decade or so.

I get that you might not be a fan of the DP episodes, and that’s fine. But even if you prefer AG or OS, DP is very much in line with what came before. It’s no more ‘shallow’ than either of those series were (I don’t get that complaint, honestly. Pocket Monsters has never been a deep anime, in any incarnation), and I honestly thought what it did add - Satoshi vs. Shinji, Hikozaru, and Team Galactic - were the kind of interesting and well-done plots that previous sagas either never tried or just botched completely. Even Hikari’s arc and character development, even though they center around Contests again, differed from Haruka’s in enough ways that it’s not a rehash at all.

If there’s any place that this series jumps the shark, I don’t believe that it’d be with DP. It’s certainly not a perfect saga, and there are things that OS/AG do better, but the same could be said for both of those as well. But for the most part, Jouto-Sinnoh are pretty consistent with each other, with AG and DP both adding something new to their respective series that they can also be looked at on their own merits. And really, shouldn’t that be ideal? I don’t want a series that feels stale - which, and I know you don’t agree, is what I felt happened with the majority of Jouto - but I also don’t want BW.
AG series also has considerable flaw !
At midpoint of AG series , It felt like Director/Writer forgot Pokemon is Kids anime about Ash goal to be a Pokemon master.
Instate , They started writing a Shoujo Love-story between May & Drew where Ash happen to be side-character.
Honestly , Pokemon probably jump the shark when the series started to follow 2 main goal of 2 main character during AG series ! Because Pokemon is Kids Anime So it never suppose to have 2 main Goal !

Focusing on 2 completely different goal of 2 character only made the series more confusing and unfunny .
That why , Original Series was so focus & simple because it was only focused on Ash's Goal !
Now , We don't know the main objective of Pokemon series ! Is it about Ash being a Pokemon Master or fighting evil Or some other objective.
Pokemon is not a Korean drama show that focus on Every Character lifes and their goal! Its just a simple Kids Anime.

Truth is , If Serena was like her mirror-world counterpart then she wouldn't need a goal to be great character !
Just like Misty & Mitsumi (Pokemon DPA).
Serena needed a goal so badly because he personality & interaction was blend & Boring.
If We had a Mirror Serena who just carries a Laptop and analyses pokemon then that Serena would have became more popular then current Serena.
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  #22    
Old April 19th, 2015 (12:52 PM). Edited April 19th, 2015 by janejane6178.
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Quote originally posted by Famon:
AG series also has considerable flaw !
At midpoint of AG series , It felt like Director/Writer forgot Pokemon is Kids anime about Ash goal to be a Pokemon master.
Instate , They started writing a Shoujo Love-story between May & Drew where Ash happen to be side-character.
Honestly , Pokemon probably jump the shark when the series started to follow 2 main goal of 2 main character during AG series ! Because Pokemon is Kids Anime So it never suppose to have 2 main Goal !

Focusing on 2 completely different goal of 2 character only made the series more confusing and unfunny .
That why , Original Series was so focus & simple because it was only focused on Ash's Goal !
Now , We don't know the main objective of Pokemon series ! Is it about Ash being a Pokemon Master or fighting evil Or some other objective.
Pokemon is not a Korean drama show that focus on Every Character lifes and their goal! Its just a simple Kids Anime.

Truth is , If Serena was like her mirror-world counterpart then she wouldn't need a goal to be great character !
Just like Misty & Mitsumi (Pokemon DPA).
Serena needed a goal so badly because he personality & interaction was blend & Boring.
If We had a Mirror Serena who just carries a Laptop and analyses pokemon then that Serena would have became more popular then current Serena.
I agree with you about AG being overrated.
Regarding Serena, yes she's boring but don't forget that the previous girl companion ( Iris), had the same personality like the mirror Serena.. and she wasn't very popular ( Although I really liked her).
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  #23    
Old April 19th, 2015 (12:57 PM).
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Quote originally posted by weedle_mchairybug:
I'll give you Pika and Goliath, maybe also Jessiebelle, but I'm not so sure about the others (plus, technically the only reason Ash's Johto team reappeared was because of HGSS. Had it not been for that series of remakes, we probably would never have gotten a reappearance from them). I'd probably have to say it IS inconsistent with older sagas though, considering Ash's Pikachu lost to several Pokémon it frankly should NOT have lost to after effectively manhandling a Regice (probably the worst of it was the second Paul battle where it lost to a Ursaring that wasn't even a veteran of one region yet. I could accept Pikachu's loss if it had been against Paul's Torterra, at least IT was closest to Pikachu's veteran level).
Well, let’s get this out of the way first, just because I see you saying it all the time: Pikachu did not “manhandle” Regice. There was a moment where Pikachu came dangerously close to losing that battle and, ultimately, it only ended up winning in the cheapest way possible.

And if we’re going to judge the consistency of any series on how many times Pikachu lost to something you wouldn’t expect it to, then that’s a criticism you’d have to apply to AG and the OS (remember Shigeru’s Eievui?) as well, not just DP. Because, like it or not, Pikachu can’t be unbeatable. And since it has to lose, it’d make more sense for Pikachu to lose to strong Gym Leaders (Hyouta, Melissa) and a rival taking advantage of a strategy that utilizes a Pokémon’s ability to be as effective as possible (Shinji and Ringuma) than a beginner’s Pokémon.

Of course that’s all beside the point being made here, which was that DP made several callbacks to older series, same as Jouto and AG did, and is very much in line with both of them. Satoshi, Takeshi, and the Rocket trio are consistent with their characterization in AG/OS. DP doesn’t pull a BW, where the series is so far removed from what came before that Satoshi suddenly loses almost all ability to battle effectively - and, in certain cases (i.e. Raimon City Gym), doesn’t even act like he used to - and the Rockets become almost entirely different characters. DP isn’t like XY, which has been almost entirely self-contained thus far, and makes use of continuity in the same way as Jouto/AG did.

The occasional inconsistencies still happened, of course (and this is true for OS, AG, and DP), because we're talking about an anime that by that point spanned over 600 episodes altogether going over a decade. Expecting the writers to keep 100% with what happened before just isn't realistic. But, that aside, there's never been any doubt that the events of OS and AG were meant to have happened in DP.

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Actually, the original series did actually come pretty close to being "deep," considering there were plenty of fairly dark elements in there (like the St. Anne/Giant Pokémon arc, the Mewtwo Movie, Brock basically being a victim of Parental Abandonment, Ash getting "killed" by Ghost Pokémon, the Mewtwo Movie, Battle of the Badge, and all of that were definitely not really child-friendly material after all, and the Mewtwo movie in particular, at least in the Japanese version, dealt with existential themes, which ARE pretty deep, or at least heavy), and besides which, Takeshi Shudo did mention wanting it to be a series the whole family could enjoy rather than just preschoolers.
“Dark” and “deep” are not synonymous and a show doesn’t have to be deep to be something a family can enjoy, so I don’t understand the relevance of anything being said here.

Pocket Monsters, by which I mean the entire franchise in general (excepting the manga, because I haven’t read it), has never been significantly complex or nuanced. Characters and story arcs are simple, the themes are blatantly stated and obvious, and for the most part the world is presented in a pretty black-and-white way. I might give you the Mewtwo movie, but even so the movie plays out in a way where the lesson of the whole thing is clear. And the OS wasn’t the only series to play around with heavier themes. AG, DP, and even BW, did as well. DP is no shallower in its storytelling than the OS or AG were.

Honestly, most of the time fans trying to force depth into things where it never existed just sound embarrassed to be a fan in the first place. It’s not important that Pocket Monsters be a deep series. What’s important is that the characters are done well and that the stories are told logically and in a way that’s entertaining. For the most part, DP is pretty on par with, and I would personally argue better than, both AG and OS in these areas.

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The only real distinction between Dawn and May's contests is that Dawn actually does feature dress-ups of the coordinators. Other than that, there really isn't any real difference between the two, so yeah, it is indeed a rehash, not to mention cheap to replace May (and I don't even like her), especially when Masamitsu Hidaka made it pretty clear that they're replacing all the girl characters for more "eyecandy."
Well, that and the fact that Hikari is a different character than Haruka with her own personality, quirks, and relationships to Satoshi and Takeshi. And that the nature of Hikari’s storyline, Pokémon teams, and character development were completely different to how Haruka’s were handled. And that Hikari’s rivals were different than Haruka’s were. And that the Contest battles and appeals were done differently.

While I prefer the storyline of AG’s Contests overall, Haruka didn’t have a chunck of her story centered around losing two Contests in the appeal round and the uncertainty that come from that. Haruka didn’t have the Mikuri Cup, Kasumi didn’t come back to use her experiences in the OS to assist with her character development, Haruka didn’t have a mother who was already a master in her field, and Haruka didn’t have a disobedient Pokémon to work with. Those (expecting the last one) were all unique aspects of Hikari’s journey. But no, let’s ignore all of that and pretend this is what a rehash looks like.

Hidaka’s words were unfortunate, but if it makes you feel any better Haruka and Hikari both were treated as a lot more than just “eye candy”. They each had their goals that were actually treated as important to their respective series and build to a climax (which is more than what can be said for Kasumi). They were treated importantly enough that Haruka arguably overshadows Satoshi, the anime franchise’s central character, in AG and Hikari was equal to him in DP. It's one thing to not like either of them and prefer that Kasumi remained on, but at least understand what the writers were going for.

Quote originally posted by Famon:
AG series also has considerable flaw !
At midpoint of AG series , It felt like Director/Writer forgot Pokemon is Kids anime about Ash goal to be a Pokemon master.
Instate , They started writing a Shoujo Love-story between May & Drew where Ash happen to be side-character.
Honestly , Pokemon probably jump the shark when the series started to follow 2 main goal of 2 main character during AG series ! Because Pokemon is Kids Anime So it never suppose to have 2 main Goal !
I’m glad the writers decided to give another member of Satoshi’s group considerable focus and a storyline of their own to follow. It’s the main reason I put AG over OS in terms of quality, because a second quest to follow greatly helped keep AG from getting boring. An entire 190+ episode series can’t be carried just by Satoshi’s journey, the occasional Kasumi/Takeshi episode, and COTD-related filler the rest of the time. Even in Jouto, the writers started adding more arcs in the last third of that saga which admittedly did help it pick up near the end.

The problem with Satoshi in AG wasn’t because of Haruka and Shuu. The latter didn’t appear all that much, and it’s a bit cheap to reduce their rivalry to a “Shoujo Love-story” when that wasn’t even the main idea of it. The problem with Satoshi was that, new Pokémon and the Touki/Jindai arcs aside, the writers gave him little to do. He had no rivals to fight, personal challenges to meet, problematic Pokémon to deal with like he got in the OS (this is my problem with XY-era Satoshi, too). That’s one of the many reasons I loved Shinji in DP so much, because the rivalry with him gave Satoshi all of that and, as a result, made him more fun to watch (for me, anyway). And Satoshi managed all of that even with Hikari and her Contest arc.

Quote:
Focusing on 2 completely different goal of 2 character only made the series more confusing and unfunny .
That why , Original Series was so focus & simple because it was only focused on Ash's Goal !
Now , We don't know the main objective of Pokemon series ! Is it about Ash being a Pokemon Master or fighting evil Or some other objective.
Pokemon is not a Korean drama show that focus on Every Character lifes and their goal! Its just a simple Kids Anime.
Who says the anime just has to be about one thing? There’s a reason the games contain the amount of material that they do. Because parsing it down to just the main character and collecting badges makes for a boring story. The Contests, the evil teams, the character development, etc. makes the anime a more entertaining experience. Satoshi is not the only character in the series, he has companions and if they’re there, the writers need to do something with them other than just make sure they interact with Satoshi well.
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  #24    
Old April 19th, 2015 (02:12 PM).
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Does anyone here actually want Ash to win a leage conference and end up with a non-tsundere (no temper) love interest (like Anabel or Non-Annoyed Serena)?

I know this is off-topic, but if the anime gives us that much, it will all be worth it, since it's apparently to much trouble to give us 100+ Pokemon per gen nowadays (to maintain the actual namesake), only 1-2 seasons (like Season 1, minus Misty, Viridian City Nurse Joy, Stray Charmander Nurse Joy, and the Celadon Gym), and no filler.
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  #25    
Old April 19th, 2015 (02:34 PM). Edited April 19th, 2015 by weedle_mchairybug.
weedle_mchairybug weedle_mchairybug is offline
 
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Quote originally posted by Lizardo:
Well, let’s get this out of the way first, just because I see you saying it all the time: Pikachu did not “manhandle” Regice. There was a moment where Pikachu came dangerously close to losing that battle and, ultimately, it only ended up winning in the cheapest way possible.
I guess you've got a point there. But even still, it beat a Legendary, which are Pokémon that, god or not, are definitely not things that can be easily defeated.

Quote:
And if we’re going to judge the consistency of any series on how many times Pikachu lost to something you wouldn’t expect it to, then that’s a criticism you’d have to apply to AG and the OS (remember Shigeru’s Eievui?) as well, not just DP. Because, like it or not, Pikachu can’t be unbeatable. And since it has to lose, it’d make more sense for Pikachu to lose to strong Gym Leaders (Hyouta, Melissa) and a rival taking advantage of a strategy that utilizes a Pokémon’s ability to be as effective as possible (Shinji and Ringuma) than a beginner’s Pokémon.
No, it would make more sense after all of that to lose to Elite 4 members, not Gym leaders no matter how strong they are, but I will agree with you that his loss against Paul is at least better than his loss against Trip (there's just no excuse for that).

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Of course that’s all beside the point being made here, which was that DP made several callbacks to older series, same as Jouto and AG did, and is very much in line with both of them. Satoshi, Takeshi, and the Rocket trio are consistent with their characterization in AG/OS. DP doesn’t pull a BW, where the series is so far removed from what came before that Satoshi suddenly loses almost all ability to battle effectively - and, in certain cases (i.e. Raimon City Gym), doesn’t even act like he used to - and the Rockets become almost entirely different characters. DP isn’t like XY, which has been almost entirely self-contained thus far, and makes use of continuity in the same way as Jouto/AG did.
BW was only the most blatant about the self-contained aspects. DP was also pretty self-contained in that, May cameo aside, there hasn't really been a single reference to AG (which is largely AG's fault for having Ash lose at the same rank as he did Johto), plus conflicting with the Battle Frontier win.

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The occasional inconsistencies still happened, of course (and this is true for OS, AG, and DP), because we're talking about an anime that by that point spanned over 600 episodes altogether going over a decade. Expecting the writers to keep 100% with what happened before just isn't realistic. But, that aside, there's never been any doubt that the events of OS and AG were meant to have happened in DP.
If there wasn't any doubt, please explain why Ash and Brock seemed to treat Contests as a new thing when they already experienced it with May. Why didn't they actually tell Dawn about having had to deal with a prior coordinator on their team? Why is it that Ash's Battle Frontier win was constantly cheapened?

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“Dark” and “deep” are not synonymous and a show doesn’t have to be deep to be something a family can enjoy, so I don’t understand the relevance of anything being said here.
A "family show" means a show geared towards kids of all ages, while what is currently going on is that the show is predicated more to preschoolers exclusively. That's what I and DBZ Fan are getting at (and for the record, based on some of Takeshi Shudo's complaints on his blog, AG started steering away from families and aiming specifically for children).

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Pocket Monsters, by which I mean the entire franchise in general (excepting the manga, because I haven’t read it), has never been significantly complex or nuanced. Characters and story arcs are simple, the themes are blatantly stated and obvious, and for the most part the world is presented in a pretty black-and-white way. I might give you the Mewtwo movie, but even so the movie plays out in a way where the lesson of the whole thing is clear. And the OS wasn’t the only series to play around with heavier themes. AG, DP, and even BW, did as well. DP is no shallower in its storytelling than the OS or AG were.
Actually, many of them were shallower. I'll probably give you DP, but AG definitely didn't have good character interaction between the group (seriously, the only one actually remotely upset about having to leave the group was Max. The others just seemed to either not care one way or another, or worse, in the case of May, almost seemed glad to be out of Ash's reach), and BW was even worse in how rushed the entire farewell was.

I'm not saying Pokémon was deep to Metal Gear levels, and I don't think DBZ Fan was saying that as well, but it wasn't basically coddling children either, that's what I'm getting at.

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Honestly, most of the time fans trying to force depth into things where it never existed just sound embarrassed to be a fan in the first place. It’s not important that Pocket Monsters be a deep series. What’s important is that the characters are done well and that the stories are told logically and in a way that’s entertaining. For the most part, DP is pretty on par with, and I would personally argue better than, both AG and OS in these areas.
Well, be embarrassed with Takeshi Shudo, then, because he made it pretty clear that the OS was in fact deep and intended to be geared towards families, and implied that AG basically was no longer catering to that market.

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Well, that and the fact that Hikari is a different character than Haruka with her own personality, quirks, and relationships to Satoshi and Takeshi. And that the nature of Hikari’s storyline, Pokémon teams, and character development were completely different to how Haruka’s were handled. And that Hikari’s rivals were different than Haruka’s were. And that the Contest battles and appeals were done differently.
Not really. Both May and Dawn had a slightly odd rival for most of the time (Dawn had a tomboy named Zoe while May had a metrosexual named Drew), both also had rivals that outright hated her and went to great lengths to humiliate her (Ursula for Dawn, Harley for May), and actually, I really didn't see any real difference between the battles and appeals. In order for them to be truly different, they need to be radically different.

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While I prefer the storyline of AG’s Contests overall, Haruka didn’t have a chunck of her story centered around losing two Contests in the appeal round and the uncertainty that come from that. Haruka didn’t have the Mikuri Cup, Kasumi didn’t come back to use her experiences in the OS to assist with her character development, Haruka didn’t have a mother who was already a master in her field, and Haruka didn’t have a disobedient Pokémon to work with. Those (expecting the last one) were all unique aspects of Hikari’s journey. But no, let’s ignore all of that and pretend this is what a rehash looks like.
When they share the exact same goals, yes, by definition it's a rehash. It would be no different than if they replaced Ash with another character only to have him do the same goal as him (and BTW, the writers are completely unwilling to go that route).

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Hidaka’s words were unfortunate, but if it makes you feel any better Haruka and Hikari both were treated as a lot more than just “eye candy”. They each had their goals that were actually treated as important to their respective series and build to a climax (which is more than what can be said for Kasumi). They were treated importantly enough that Haruka arguably overshadows Satoshi, the anime franchise’s central character, in AG and Hikari was equal to him in DP. It's one thing to not like either of them and prefer that Kasumi remained on, but at least understand what the writers were going for.
When they gave them the exact characterizations as the girls from Love Hina or the Fiorello Fangirls from Princess vs. Princess, heck, even Maron from Dragon Ball Z (and I mean Krillin's ex-girlfriend, not his daughter, just so we're clear), it truly doesn't matter. And BTW, if they were truly "equal" with him, they wouldn't have disposed of them the second a new generation comes out. They would have kept them, like they did with Ash constantly.

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I’m glad the writers decided to give another member of Satoshi’s group considerable focus and a storyline of their own to follow. It’s the main reason I put AG over OS in terms of quality, because a second quest to follow greatly helped keep AG from getting boring. An entire 190+ episode series can’t be carried just by Satoshi’s journey, the occasional Kasumi/Takeshi episode, and COTD-related filler the rest of the time. Even in Jouto, the writers started adding more arcs in the last third of that saga which admittedly did help it pick up near the end.
Honestly, I actually was disgusted with the Pokémon Contests being included as a major goal when they weren't even a major part of the games (heck, Pokémon Contests got even LESS focus in Emerald, Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum). If they really wanted an important secondary goal that badly, they could have just expanded significantly on Misty's goal by, you know, actually giving her a regional league-like competition to allow her to pursue her goal in Hoenn. I could think of plenty I could give her. Sure, most of them will be anime-only, but at least it's better than placing Pokémon Contests in the forefront despite their not even being necessary to complete the games, and effectively lying to the audience. Besides, I've had a pretty bad experience trying to do Pokémon Contests, which basically led me to quit doing them.

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The problem with Satoshi in AG wasn’t because of Haruka and Shuu. The latter didn’t appear all that much, and it’s a bit cheap to reduce their rivalry to a “Shoujo Love-story” when that wasn’t even the main idea of it. The problem with Satoshi was that, new Pokémon and the Touki/Jindai arcs aside, the writers gave him little to do. He had no rivals to fight, personal challenges to meet, problematic Pokémon to deal with like he got in the OS (this is my problem with XY-era Satoshi, too). That’s one of the many reasons I loved Shinji in DP so much, because the rivalry with him gave Satoshi all of that and, as a result, made him more fun to watch (for me, anyway). And Satoshi managed all of that even with Hikari and her Contest arc.
I'll agree with that, though at least with XY, the Gym Leaders actually DID showcase a huge challenge to Ash, not to mention were actually given stuff that made them seem respectable. AG just made the GLs more like Team Rocket clones, especially their depiction in Ash Catches a Pokémon where they lost to an inexperienced and significantly injured Caterpie [a Caterpie, BTW, whose injuries they weren't even involved in earlier, but from a stupid mistake Ash made by sending Caterpie to fight a Pidgeotto].

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Who says the anime just has to be about one thing? There’s a reason the games contain the amount of material that they do. Because parsing it down to just the main character and collecting badges makes for a boring story. The Contests, the evil teams, the character development, etc. makes the anime a more entertaining experience. Satoshi is not the only character in the series, he has companions and if they’re there, the writers need to do something with them other than just make sure they interact with Satoshi well.
In case you've forgotten, Misty and Brock actually DID have goals they were striving for in the OS (Misty's goal was even alluded to as early as "Bulbasaur and the Hidden Village" where she wanted to catch Oddish because she wanted to get water types [granted, Oddish isn't a water type beyond briefly drinking out of a pond, but nonetheless...].), so that's not unique to the other series. And even if you argue that Misty and Brock didn't learn anything beyond an episode, let me remind you that thanks to "level resets" starting with AG, any accomplishments Ash had ultimately meant absolutely nothing considering he just goes back to his standard form and seem to lose some sense of actually being a skilled trainer (BW was the worst in that regard), meaning yes, Ash had even less lasting accomplishments than even Misty and Brock in the Original Series did with their goals. In fact, you could even argue that Ash's goal beyond battling gyms and challenging leagues never actually got defined until DP. Misty and even Brock's goals actually got more development than Ash's. At least they actually HAD more substance than Ash's Pokémon Master goal, which, until DP revealed it involved beating the regional Championship Master at the very least, there was literally nothing indicated exactly what becoming a Pokémon Master entailed beyond going to a league (it wasn't even clear if winning a league would get the title, considering Ash won the Orange League and still had to pursue the dream despite that).
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