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  #1    
Old July 16th, 2013 (09:20 PM).
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This is a question that arose some time ago for me. Basically, what is the correct origin of a Pokémon like Rhyperior? Kanto or Sinnoh? If I'm building a Sinnoh-only team, could I take Rhyperior and Roserade into consideration? Or the Pokémon in question must be considered from the generation where it first appeared, in whichever form? In the case of Roserade, it would be Hoenn, because Roselia is from Hoenn (overlooked fact since it only gained relevance with its other stages). But the baby form is from Sinnoh, as well as the evolved form. What about Eevee? Eevee itself is from Kanto, and the evolutions? Espeon from Johto, Leafeon from Sinnoh, Sylveon from Kalos, or all of them from Kanto?

I know this is a question that should only be relevant when building region-specific teams, if GF makes this an achievement. I suspect they didn't include it in BW2 because even they don't know the answer. Still, what's your opinion?
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Old July 16th, 2013 (10:02 PM).
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I would use the evolution as for the origin. Rhyhorn is Kanto and Rhyperior is Sinnoh. I would count Rhyperior as a Sinnoh Pokemon, or gen IV Pokemon since that's really how it should be referred to imo. Eevee is a gen I Pokemon and Umbreon is a gen II Pokemon. So if you're building a Johto only team, you're allowed to have Eevee as long as you evolve it into Umbreon or Espeon, since those are a part of gen II.

That make any sense? This is just my opinion on the matter, of course.
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Old July 16th, 2013 (10:24 PM). Edited July 16th, 2013 by molivious.
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Uhh... the region(s) where they appear in. The basis is simple:

"where did that pokemon/evolutionary process come from/originate"

Eevee may have initially been officially *introduced* from Kanto... but it's other evolutionary forms *never* evolved in that region - the only way to get them were through trades/migration. That said, Espeon and Umbreon's Origin is definitely not Kanto.

Technically, "origin" may pertain to many places. You could get an Umbreon from Sinnoh, an Umbreon from Unova, and an Umbreon from Johto. They all originate from those places IF they were evolved/caught there. Unfortunately, though, there is no way to distinguish the difference between them (yet).

This goes for every other pokemon as well. If it was first introduced in Gen 1, it doesnt automatically mean that it's origin is only Kanto. A pokemon may originate or appear commonly in other regions as well *cough*ZubatGeodude*cough*

However, if, for example, it was confirmed through a pokedex entry/research/whatever... then one's "true origin" could be determined. Remember Mewtwo? He was *created* in Kanto, and he's supposedly just to be the only one that exists. That means that Mewtwo's "true origin" is Kanto, and Kanto alone.

Now, for Pokemon that evolve while holding items. Then you could say that their origin is based on the item's origin itself. Where does Metal Coat really come from? Magmarizer? If we could answer that, then the case will be closed.
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Old July 16th, 2013 (11:48 PM). Edited July 17th, 2013 by Cerberus87.
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Quote originally posted by Sydian:
I would use the evolution as for the origin. Rhyhorn is Kanto and Rhyperior is Sinnoh. I would count Rhyperior as a Sinnoh Pokemon, or gen IV Pokemon since that's really how it should be referred to imo. Eevee is a gen I Pokemon and Umbreon is a gen II Pokemon. So if you're building a Johto only team, you're allowed to have Eevee as long as you evolve it into Umbreon or Espeon, since those are a part of gen II.

That make any sense? This is just my opinion on the matter, of course.
Thanks Sydian that makes the most sense.

Quote originally posted by molivious:
Uhh... the region(s) where they appear in. The basis is simple:

"where did that pokemon/evolutionary process come from/originate"

Eevee may have initially been officially *introduced* from Kanto... but it's other evolutionary forms *never* evolved in that region - the only way to get them were through trades/migration. That said, Espeon and Umbreon's Origin is definitely not Kanto.

Technically, "origin" may pertain to many places. You could get an Umbreon from Sinnoh, an Umbreon from Unova, and an Umbreon from Johto. They all originate from those places IF they were evolved/caught there. Unfortunately, though, there is no way to distinguish the difference between them (yet).

This goes for every other pokemon as well. If it was first introduced in Gen 1, it doesnt automatically mean that it's origin is only Kanto. A pokemon may originate or appear commonly in other regions as well *cough*ZubatGeodude*cough*

However, if, for example, it was confirmed through a pokedex entry/research/whatever... then one's "true origin" could be determined. Remember Mewtwo? He was *created* in Kanto, and he's supposedly just to be the only one that exists. That means that Mewtwo's "true origin" is Kanto, and Kanto alone.

Now, for Pokemon that evolve while holding items. Then you could say that their origin is based on the item's origin itself. Where does Metal Coat really come from? Magmarizer? If we could answer that, then the case will be closed.
I think the answer is simpler than that... For example I believe that Pokémon like Espeon and Umbreon can exist in Kanto alone because the explanation for their existence is not regional but the passage of time. Hoenn kinda breaks the explanation because you can get all newly introduced evos from GSC in RSE, but IMO the "canon" explanation is that the later evolutions are newly discovered. If we take into consideration that Kanto was the first game and Hoenn's most likely to have taken place before DPPt (which happens close to GSC time), then it explains why Magmar didn't evolve in RBY but does so in DPPt and later.

Maybe it's not important to GF but I wish they would come out and give us an official timeline. We only know RBY happens first because they're the first games, and we assume RSE happen at the same time as FRLG because you can trade Hoenn Pokémon into Kanto and vice-versa. The only definite thing we know is that DPPt and HGSS happen in a similar time frame, but not necessarily concomitantly, and 5th gen happens after all the others, because of numerous references in the games.
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Old July 17th, 2013 (02:12 AM). Edited July 17th, 2013 by molivious.
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Quote originally posted by Cerberus87:
I think the answer is simpler than that... For example I believe that Pokémon like Espeon and Umbreon can exist in Kanto alone because the explanation for their existence is not regional but the passage of time. Hoenn kinda breaks the explanation because you can get all newly introduced evos from GSC in RSE, but IMO the "canon" explanation is that the later evolutions are newly discovered. If we take into consideration that Kanto was the first game and Hoenn's most likely to have taken place before DPPt (which happens close to GSC time), then it explains why Magmar didn't evolve in RBY but does so in DPPt and later.
I don't think you get my point. Yes, the answer's much simpler than what i've written lol. If you summarize my post, it's actually just gonna turn out like Sydian's post (although not including the "origin = what gen it appeared at" part). What I'm trying to explain is "how is origin determined" -- I was answering every question you've placed in your first post. If you compare it to math... I'm not just giving you the answer (or my opinion), I'm giving you both the formula and the answer.

Kanto-> Unova is only the chronological order we've explored the regions, provided by GF.

Unova, Kanto, Johto, etc -- they all have existed simultaneously. Us, the players, only get to explore a new region WHEN and only WHEN GameFreak releases a new game. It doesn't mean every pokemon there is newly-discovered. What it simply means is that we get to know a new group of pokemon. Pokemon we've never seen.

How can one be so sure that Zubat originated from Kanto, and not Johto, Hoenn or Sinnoh? What if they all actually came from Hoenn and just migrated to other regions due to environmental changes? What if they existed in those areas all at the same time? This breaks the idea of "origin = gen where it was introduced". Your journey just so happened to start in Kanto, and that's probably why you think that's where it came from.

Now think about this:
Spoiler:
You travel to the Philippines. You see a monkey that fits the size of your palm, you've never seen it before and don't know what it's called, does that automatically mean it's a "new discovery"? No. It's just a new animal to be introduced to you.

Now, you go to a zoo in China. You find a King Cobra. But is that snake only found in China? No. It is found throughout Asia. It's origin is Asia -- which could mean a lot of countries. Now, it's "true origin"? Only our ancestors know.


Remember,
Kanto/Johto/Sinnoh etc are only depicted as regions. Not even countries nor continents. Now apply that with the realistic example above. See where I am going?

For more ideas, here's some anime example (doesn't really matter whether you watched it or not)
Spoiler:
If you follow the anime, you will know that Paul started his journey one year before Ash did. Paul started in Sinnoh, travelled through Johto, Kanto, Hoenn (unknown order) and participated in each of their Pokemon Leagues. When Ash has reached Sinnoh, that's the only time he first met Paul. He thought Paul was only a starter, but as you know, Paul actually wasnt.

Now put yourself in Paul's shoes. If you didn't play the game like Ash did (where he went to the regions chronologically the way we did, the way GF make us do - which was to start from Kanto), would you have thought that Turtwig->Torterra, which was Paul's starter, was just a "newly discovered pokemon"? No, instead, you would've thought that "Whoa! They don't have Magmortars in this region?" or "Wow! a new pokemon! Magikarp!"


The flaws I see on the text I quoted, is that you're still trying to base "origin" on what GF's given so far. Try thinking out of the box. Hoenn, Sinnoh, etc, didn't just "suddenly pop up" after your MC explored the previous regions. Other regions existed even beforehand. This brings us back to the idea that:

Only records/research/official announcements could confirm a pokemon's "true origin". Current "origins" may vary.

As for Unova and it's "a (completely) new beginning" theme, I think that explains itself on it's own. XD

Quote:
We only know RBY happens first because they're the first games, and we assume RSE happen at the same time as FRLG because you can trade Hoenn Pokémon into Kanto and vice-versa. The only definite thing we know is that DPPt and HGSS happen in a similar time frame, but not necessarily concomitantly, and 5th gen happens after all the others, because of numerous references in the games.
With that idea, you're saying that every region existed at the same time (HGSS is still 3 years after Kanto)... bringing us back at the stuff i've just written above.

I also don't know who's been spreading all that "newly discovered pokemon" stuff. But Nintendo always referred to every gen's set, as "introducing new pokemon". In other terms, "pokemon you've never seen before".

The only official "new discoveries" I could remember mentioned (in-game or out-of) were Deoxys, Mew, Mewtwo, Mewtwo's new form, Genesect, and Kalos region (which includes all pokemon in it), plus a bunch of other artificially-created pokemon. Keep in mind, even though Kalos is supposed to be a "newly-discovered region", it could still be possible that, unlike Unova, there would still be old pokemon to be found in it's wild or waters.... like Pikachu.

About the Umbreon and Espeon part, and "Hoenn breaks that idea". Think of it this way -- Rats evolved differently across different places. In the year of dinosaurs, they were only but one newly-evolved species of rodents. Look at them now - they have variations all over the world. So why can't a certain species be found elsewhere? It's possible that the areas where they originated from has an environment they preferred and got accustomed to.

Trading system is a form of migration. Like how you transfer non-Unova pokemon to Unova. It's possible to have any pokemon/animal exist in a region/area as long as they are migrated/treated well. XD

If this isn't acceptable, then you might as well just believe that this is Pokemon, a fictional game, and nothing really should make sense. XD There's hardly any explanation. Just opinions, insights, and (forced) relation to realism. Nonetheless, couldn't explain it any better.

lmao. Sorry for being a nerd. I tend to write a lot when trying to explain something in my head :/
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Old July 17th, 2013 (06:02 AM).
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The way I see it (And probably Molivious, roughly seeing the monkey idea) is that Pokemon have adapted from their original regions. At first, when the Pokemon world was older, perhaps all or most of the regions connected in some way, thus sharing their Pokemon. When these regions split apart and drifted over time (Because I doubt the Pokemon world is omitted from plate tectonics), they carried away these Pokemon with them, thus making it possible to see two or more of the same Pokemon in various regions (The exception being Unova, because. . . Well, it's Unova). And this diversity would probably bring some Pokemon to evolve differently in their select region, giving Rhydon an extra evolution into effect in the Sinnoh region.

Another theory, and also one that could easily piggyback off of the one I just wrote, would be that tourists bring their own Pokemon from other regions into others. Trading with locals and such would probably end up in the Pokemon getting lost in a sea of everything and it will eventually end up in the wild, where, if it was lucky, it would find more of its kind released and create a colony that eventually expanded to the areas you find them in the region. The tourist attractions would also bring some experimentation to the Pokemon, seeing as they might want to figure out new ways to evolve the creature they already have or evolve something they've never seen before. The result are things like Electrivere or Togekiss.
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Old July 17th, 2013 (03:43 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Thergox:
At first, when the Pokemon world was older, perhaps all or most of the regions connected in some way, thus sharing their Pokemon. When these regions split apart and drifted over time (Because I doubt the Pokemon world is omitted from plate tectonics), they carried away these Pokemon with them, thus making it possible to see two or more of the same Pokemon in various regions
This is probably the most reasonable explanation I have seen so far. It makes sense scientifically. Also, because certain Pokemon were in different parts of the world to their relations in other regions, they may have adapted to better survive their new home. Hypothetically when Sinnoh and Johto were joined and the Togetic population would be split when they drifted. Maybe in Sinnoh region, Togetic had to evolve to increase their flying abilities in order to escape predators. Or maybe a situation like Ash's Charmeleon evolving so it could take out Aerodactyl. When the first Togetic evolved into Togekiss, it might have allowed the rest of them to do the same thing. But since they never needed to in Johto, they dont even know about the existence of a post-evolution.

Really it is just a matter of opinion. If you can't get Togekiss in Gen II, it can't be a Johto Pokemon. I know I will never refer to Magnezone as a Kanto Pokemon... Because it just isn't. Magneton has adapted to it's new Sinnoh home and that makes it a Sinnoh Pokemon.
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Old August 2nd, 2013 (02:36 AM).
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For the purposes of an in-game run, I believe that Sydian's explanation works.

If we want to get technical about how the origin of a pokemon is viewed in canon, I believe that the regional dex brings a good perspective on things...

Take Pidgey. If you look at it's bulbapedia page, it says that it's included in the Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn regional dexes. This means that the species Pidgey is native, and just as well may have originated, from these any of these 3 regions.

Take Zubat. It's page says it's actually a member of all 5 regional dexes. Yet the only reason why it's in the Unova dex is because, within the 2 year time jump into Black and White 2, the Unova dex was expanded with new species in it. We can eliminate that Zubat does not originate from Unova, yet for all we know, it could have originated from any of those other 4 regions.

When you think about it, the first 4 regions in pokemon are all within the same country of Japan...

tl;dr arceus is in sinnoh THEREFORE every pokemon in the world originated from sinnoh except for mew2 and aritificial pokes kthxbai
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