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  #51    
Old September 21st, 2013 (01:21 PM).
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I used to be very uncomfortable with abortion to a point where I was pro-life when I was much, much younger, however I'm pro-choice now. That doesn't mean I like abortion (who does?) but I've become more accepting with it. I don't think abortion should be allowed after a certain point unless there's a very good reason behind it, which most late term abortions have (fetus would die shortly after birth, mother would die, fetus would have extreme disability that would have a negative impact on his or her quality of life, etc).

I do believe more people should be more responsible with birth control, but banning abortion altogether isn't the answer. Especially since no method of birth control is foolproof. Condoms break, the pill can fail. You can say that people shouldn't have sex unless they're prepared for that possibility, but it won't happen no matter how much you wish it would.

People who say "there's always adoption!" probably don't know much about the adoption system. It's not a foolproof system where every child gets a loving home, everyone.

And the people who say that it should only be allowed in cases of rape also strike me as being misinformed. How would that even work? Would they have to have proof that they were raped (that isn't always easy to get). And there's always the slight possibility that a woman would claim she was raped if she was so desperate to get an abortion, and that would end horribly.
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  #52    
Old September 26th, 2013 (01:28 PM).
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I've been meaning to post this for a WHILE now, especially that I'm planning to debate this subject in a few weeks in my debate class.

All of my family are hardcore pro-lifers. I was raised a pro-lifer. My mom always told me (even as a teenage girl) that once you get pregnant, you must keep it no matter the circumstances, and to be honest I find it BS. They actually care more about the fetus inside the womb rather than the woman carrying the baby herself, and that's just rather saddening. Pregnancy is supposed to be the caring of the mother and the baby. I understand the fact that there are some other options for contraception, and my family tends to stay out of any contraception out there. Two of my cousins were shunned out of the family because they both aborted as were found out. It's been years since I've seen both.

I'm probably more pro-life than pro-choice but I have my reasons. I don't think abortion should happen in the middle or towards the end because I think it's actually unfair for the child. Had it developed a heart and lungs towards the middle and developed eyes towards the end of the pregnancy, adoption should be a better choice. If a woman wants to abort a pregnancy just because the doctors detected a disease or syndrome such as Down Syndrome or a deformity, that's where I draw the line. It's absolutely stupid for her to carry a child all that time and then make a last minute decision to no longer want the kid because of it. Abortion is an option in case the “day-after” pill fails, or if the woman *apparently* forgot to take the pill after sex. These cases *can* happen. Abortion should be a choice if the woman was raped, as OzCake stated. If I was in that scenario, I wouldn't really want to carry a child who's father is a rapist. I'd be extremely terrified, scared for my life. What would I say to my child about his father? And my family would be willing to care for it not matter what.

In short, woman should have the choice to abort, but it must be as early as possible...that is, if the woman knows for the fact that she might not have the support from her family, has financial issues, and cannot afford to receive medical care to keep the baby afloat. If the baby is developed enough to have a heartbeat, then abortion should not happen.

Quote originally posted by The Cutest Sylveon in the World:
People who say "there's always adoption!" probably don't know much about the adoption system. It's not a foolproof system where every child gets a loving home, everyone.
This. It's also expensive to adopt a child as well, which is why it's scarce these days. $500 + income requirements and other large expenses such as CPR classes and paying a lawyer/social worker. Think about that.
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  #53    
Old September 26th, 2013 (02:38 PM).
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Quote originally posted by AlexOzzyCake:
The way I see it, if you're pregnant and it's because of your own doings, be it a mistake or otherwise, you owe it to the child to give birth to them or you're wasting a whole human life - that child could never have hopes, dreams, love, or any form of life, just because one or two people made a mistake. I'm aware the experience is traumatic for the woman and it will encompass the pains of giving birth, and perhaps I'm being naive here, but I don't believe that any amount of temporary pain or discomfort over the 9 months is a justified reason to terminate a potential life. I'm not saying they should have to look after the child though, especially if they never wanted it in the first place or it'll never be a loving bond between them, but 9 months is ample time to find an adoptive carer.

The only time I would disregard this situation is in the case of rape. [...] (being drunk does not count) [...]
I might not be adding to the discussion because I haven't read all of it but. I'm not completely comfortable with the idea of abortion because the lines of "being" are still so vague and unclear, however to me, the life of the mother is worth more than an unborn potential life. People who are 100% against abortion are basically granting the foetus more rights than its mother. Yes it has the right to live but above all the mother has the right to choose.

They don't "owe" this "child" anything either, for every reason I said above.

I also think that you just can't allow some people to have an abortion and not others, that's just not going to work. Having an unwanted child can ruin your life whether it was through rape or just unplanned. You can use anti-conception and still become pregnant, etc etc etc, you just can't draw the line somewhere between those things. And I also think saying that being drunk does not count is extremely ignorant and it makes me pretty angry that people can think that, I really hope you understand why that's just wrong.
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when I said "being drunk doesn't count as a reason" I meant if they're drunk at a party and end up in a consenting one night stand because of it haha.
Do you really think a drunk person is in the right state to be able to give consent? Just like a 12 year old you mean?
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  #54    
Old September 26th, 2013 (03:20 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Yoshikkko:
And I also think saying that being drunk does not count is extremely ignorant and it makes me pretty angry that people can think that, I really hope you understand why that's just wrong. Do you really think a drunk person is in the right state to be able to give consent? Just like a 12 year old you mean?
That kind of perspective would ruin the intrigue of drunk sex, now wouldn't it? You can be drunk and still give consent - if you're drunk to the point of passing out, that's another story. Also, one can give consent -albeit qualified, regardless of age. The law doesn't accept that though. Consent is not a black and white concept.
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  #55    
Old September 27th, 2013 (07:19 AM).
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I'm pro-choice and will forever be.
-If the child really isn't wanted, what kind of life would it have?
-A woman shouldn't be forced to go through a pregnancy just because of an accident, some people really do try to prevent and fail.
-There are already tons of children in the system, waiting to be adopted, why add another child to that.
-A child is a big commitment, it is life changing. I know, I have one. Not everyone can handle/afford a child.

As long as it's before the age of viability (23 weeks along into the pregnancy) then I am for it. The sooner it is done, the better in my opinion.
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  #56    
Old October 16th, 2013 (04:38 AM).
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Gonna get bashed for this, but i think its rediculous how teenagers run around all willy nilly, doing whatever they want, and if they have a baby in the process, they just kill it.

Sure, you can do it protected, or you can plan the cycle, which is how my parents did it for a year unprotected without having kids.

I truly believe that it is a life. Its not the womans body, its the babys too.
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  #57    
Old October 16th, 2013 (09:35 AM). Edited October 16th, 2013 by Silais.
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Quote originally posted by TheTorraRegion:
Gonna get bashed for this, but i think its rediculous how teenagers run around all willy nilly, doing whatever they want, and if they have a baby in the process, they just kill it.

Sure, you can do it protected, or you can plan the cycle, which is how my parents did it for a year unprotected without having kids.

I truly believe that it is a life. Its not the womans body, its the babys too.
You're looking at a small group of individuals and applying that stereotype to the majority, which is not a true statement in any sense of the word. Yes, some teenage girls get pregnant from promiscuity, but most do not; protection is so readily available nowadays that the rate of teenage pregnancy has gone down in the past few years. Even those we would consider poor have access to condoms, which help prevent pregnancy with 97% or so accuracy.

Most women who have abortions have spent hours and hours thinking over the procedure and it is an exceptionally difficult choice to make. It's such a hard decision; do not think that women who have abortions do it on the fly. In my state, you have a 72-hour waiting period before the procedure can even begin, and doctors must inform you that you are "taking a life", which, in my opinion, is psychological torture. The procedure can last 4-7 hours so you must plan your day around being in the doctor's office. Don't forget the cost; it can range from $300 to several thousand dollars. It's an uncomfortable, sometimes painful, and psychologically and emotionally traumatizing experience. A woman must think very hard on her decision, go through all of her potential options, and make a choice based on her situation. No one would ever claim that abortion is easy; those who do not know how the procedure works or what is necessary to complete it are simply ignorant and need to read up about abortion before demonizing it as murder.

Women must do what is best for them. To bring a child into the world that will not receive proper care and love should not be brought into it at all. There are thousands of children in adoption centers that will never find their true family; why add to that broken and dilapidated system? Going through with the pregnancy can affect your job, your health, and your stability. Giving birth can cost tens of thousands of dollars, and the experience can be particularly painful or traumatizing for some women, especially those who need C-sections due to complications. Sometimes adoption is not an option, and many women cannot afford to take time off for pregnancies.

We will never be able to stop human beings from having sex. Why? Because it is as natural to us as breathing, eating, and sleeping. We are programmed to do so. But we should have a choice as to whether or not we want to have children, and when we want to have children; if abortion is the only option, then we must allow it to be an option. These rich white men in Congress have no idea what it is like to be a woman struggling with these issues; I find it offensive that they continue to act as though they know the real situation when they will never be in the same pickle as them. We need to realize just how important it is to offer these sorts of options regardless of our personal belief systems.

To me, abortion is not murder. Others may disagree. We know that human beings will never come to a consensus on this issue. But we do need to realize that this sort of procedure must be available to women to prevent unwanted pregnancies when there is no other way to rectify the situation. Women are normally particularly careful about preventing pregnancy; when pregnancy happens unexpectedly, it's ridiculous to blame them and demonize them as being unsafe. Most women are mature enough to realize the costs and the consequences of sexual activity; let them make the mature decision with how to deal with those consequences.

Just some anatomy stuff: an unborn, developing baby feeds off of the mother's system by leeching nutrients that she takes in through food and water. Without the mother's body (her organs, her blood, her oxygen, and her nutrients) the baby would not be able to develop and as a result would die. Thus, it is the mother's body that is in question here, not the baby's. The mother provides all of the necessary components for pregnancy and fetal development; it should be her choice whether or not she expends those natural resources.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (11:56 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Silais:

Most women who have abortions have spent hours and hours thinking over the procedure and it is an exceptionally difficult choice to make. It's such a hard decision; do not think that women who have abortions do it on the fly. In my state, you have a 72-hour waiting period before the procedure can even begin, and doctors must inform you that you are "taking a life", which, in my opinion, is psychological torture. The procedure can last 4-7 hours so you must plan your day around being in the doctor's office. Don't forget the cost; it can range from $300 to several thousand dollars. It's an uncomfortable, sometimes painful, and psychologically and emotionally traumatizing experience. A woman must think very hard on her decision, go through all of her potential options, and make a choice based on her situation. No one would ever claim that abortion is easy; those who do not know how the procedure works or what is necessary to complete it are simply ignorant and need to read up about abortion before demonizing it as murder.
Hard decisions are not psychological torture. If a person feels bad because they are unable to grapple with worldview that believes abortion is "taking a life", that is not psychological torture. And just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not murder. There are more intricate ways of "taking a life" than abortion. I don't see how this passage refutes TheTorraRegion's claims.

Quote originally posted by Silais:

We will never be able to stop human beings from having sex. Why? Because it is as natural to us as breathing, eating, and sleeping. We are programmed to do so. But we should have a choice as to whether or not we want to have children, and when we want to have children; if abortion is the only option, then we must allow it to be an option. These rich white men in Congress have no idea what it is like to be a woman struggling with these issues; I find it offensive that they continue to act as though they know the real situation when they will never be in the same pickle as them. We need to realize just how important it is to offer these sorts of options regardless of our personal belief systems.
That's quite the diluted interpretation of "natural" and "programmed". I don't think I'd feel good about myself if I reasoned the reason I'd have sex is because "it's natural" and "I'm programmed to do so". We do it because it feels good. We do it /recreationally/. It's for fun. And since we're raised in a society in which we do things for fun, we tend to forget and push aside the natural consequence of pregnancy. We try to separate the two, pregnancy and sex are two different things - the former is a decision while the latter is natural - I'm sure that many people can tell you it's the former that's natural and it's the latter that's a choice.

Also, abortion is not the only option. Adoption is an option. Caring for the child is an option. Now, if we are mindful of the assumption that a pregnancy should not affect my quality of life and others, then yes abortion is the only option. But we have to be mindful when we say we /must/ or /mustn't/ do something.

Quote originally posted by Silais:
Just some anatomy stuff: an unborn, developing baby feeds off of the mother's system by leeching nutrients that she takes in through food and water. Without the mother's body (her organs, her blood, her oxygen, and her nutrients) the baby would not be able to develop and as a result would die. Thus, it is the mother's body that is in question here, not the baby's. The mother provides all of the necessary components for pregnancy and fetal development; it should be her choice whether or not she expends those natural resources.
That logic only applies if the mother's body is in danger. And if the only thing that matters is that the mother's expense of resources, wouldn't that justify the termination of the pregnancy whenever she likes, because it should be /her/ choice over /her/ resources? Parents do not have that level of control over their children, even though they supply all the resources involved in raising a child - we have laws that project a responsibility to protect onto parents. Clearly, that tells me that the mother's "ownership" of resources cannot be a deciding factor in when or if an abortion should occur. There has to be another way to justify when a woman can choose to cancel her continuing a pregnancy/
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  #59    
Old October 16th, 2013 (12:44 PM). Edited October 16th, 2013 by Axeliira.
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Quote originally posted by TheTorraRegion:
Gonna get bashed for this, but i think its rediculous how teenagers run around all willy nilly, doing whatever they want, and if they have a baby in the process, they just kill it.

Sure, you can do it protected, or you can plan the cycle, which is how my parents did it for a year unprotected without having kids.

I truly believe that it is a life. Its not the womans body, its the babys too.
Unfortunately that’s the way it does, but you have to remember the fact that teenagers do it because of lack of sex ed from school and for the most part, their parents altogether.

I agree and disagree about having sex unprotected and not have kids. Your parents were lucky, but not every couple out there has the same results after sex. For some, females try hard to get pregnant, and they don’t achieve conception at all. Which is frightening and sad because there’s other women out there who are having sex and getting pregnant and eventually aborting, and it just seems extremely unfair to those who can’t get pregnant.

I’m a bit neutral on your last statement. There’s very little programs out there that care for both the mother and the baby and not just for the mother itself. Of course on the first few months of pregnancy you have prenatal care, but that’s all there is to it. By the last few months, where the mother could be at risk of losing the baby, either because of an illness or on purpose.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (01:29 PM).
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Sorry Surge, but I have to disagree with you there. Nowadays, kids in Kindergarten are getting "Sex Ed" - details about an act that they normally would not find out about until their pre-teens - and thus they get naturally "curious", younger, which means faster and higher chances of pregnancy due to sexual culture that starts before Grade 1.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (03:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Rezilia:
Sorry Surge, but I have to disagree with you there. Nowadays, kids in Kindergarten are getting "Sex Ed" - details about an act that they normally would not find out about until their pre-teens - and thus they get naturally "curious", younger, which means faster and higher chances of pregnancy due to sexual culture that starts before Grade 1.
I think that's waaaaaaaaay too young. Yes I know it's the best way to prevent conception and promote contraception but giving 5 year olds sex ed is just too young. At this stage, their minds are still fresh and their personalities are still being developed until the first or second grade. It's a vast opportunity, yeah, but it's gonna be a little too hard to understand for them.

Teaching contraception should happen after 4th-6th grade, where the child is about to go through Puberty. They'll be mindful about what goes on their body and how to live with these ongoing changes in their body. Right there, is the perfect timing, and they'll be able to carry on this knowledge once they reach their teenage years.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (03:56 PM).
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As I said before, I think abortion should ALWAYS be available as an option. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but we should be respectful of those who make the incredibly difficult decision to terminate a pregnancy based on other factors in their life that would make raising the child or sending it out for adoption unreasonable and, in many cases, impossible. I think people are ignoring the fact that most women do not think having an abortion is a wonderful or freeing experience; it comes with so many psychological issues, just as pregnancy and adoption does. We can yell "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF" and "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" all we want, but that is not going to change that some women will see abortion as their only option, and we should be respectful of them making that choice. Are we going to demonize women for taking birth control or the morning after pill simply because it terminates a potential pregnancy? Like I said said in my original post, women should have a choice as to whether or not they become pregnant or if they become pregnant; pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of a child are extremely difficult tasks and we should be allowed to regulate those experiences or prevent those experiences from happening at all.

I am saying that telling a woman she's "taking a life" is psychologically detrimental because the woman already realizes that she is terminating a pregnancy and she does not need the added torment from a medical professional about what she is doing. These women struggle with making the decision to abort a fetus and it's unnecessary to continue to torture them with the knowledge that the fetus growing inside them will be removed and will not develop as a result. We cannot demonize these women for

To say that sexual intercourse is not natural is ridiculous. We are programmed to reproduce. But in a society where it is increasingly difficult to raise a child due to economic and societal factors, it should be easy for women to find options that best suit their needs. There ARE cases where abortion may be the only solution, and I feel that it is necessary to allow that option to exist. You do not have to agree with me; I'm simply sharing my opinion. But this "always take personal responsibility" thing gets old quite fast, especially when you take into account that most of these women ARE taking personal responsibility and simply had pregnancy arise despite their precautions. If you think that women should avoid sexual intercourse to prevent pregnancy, feel free to think that way. But it is never going to happen, and we should recognize that we cannot regulate every human being's activities, and it is not logical and just to do so. Abortion has existed for hundreds of years; nowadays it is a medical procedure performed in a proper setting that is much less dangerous and painful. I think it's rude to call women who have abortions baby killers or other profane terms when they have already suffering as it is.

Sorry about the tangent!
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Old October 16th, 2013 (05:14 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Silais:
As I said before, I think abortion should ALWAYS be available as an option. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but we should be respectful of those who make the incredibly difficult decision to terminate a pregnancy based on other factors in their life that would make raising the child or sending it out for adoption unreasonable and, in many cases, impossible. I think people are ignoring the fact that most women do not think having an abortion is a wonderful or freeing experience; it comes with so many psychological issues, just as pregnancy and adoption does. We can yell "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF" and "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" all we want, but that is not going to change that some women will see abortion as their only option, and we should be respectful of them making that choice. Are we going to demonize women for taking birth control or the morning after pill simply because it terminates a potential pregnancy? Like I said said in my original post, women should have a choice as to whether or not they become pregnant or if they become pregnant; pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of a child are extremely difficult tasks and we should be allowed to regulate those experiences or prevent those experiences from happening at all.

I am saying that telling a woman she's "taking a life" is psychologically detrimental because the woman already realizes that she is terminating a pregnancy and she does not need the added torment from a medical professional about what she is doing. These women struggle with making the decision to abort a fetus and it's unnecessary to continue to torture them with the knowledge that the fetus growing inside them will be removed and will not develop as a result. We cannot demonize these women for

To say that sexual intercourse is not natural is ridiculous. We are programmed to reproduce. But in a society where it is increasingly difficult to raise a child due to economic and societal factors, it should be easy for women to find options that best suit their needs. There ARE cases where abortion may be the only solution, and I feel that it is necessary to allow that option to exist. You do not have to agree with me; I'm simply sharing my opinion. But this "always take personal responsibility" thing gets old quite fast, especially when you take into account that most of these women ARE taking personal responsibility and simply had pregnancy arise despite their precautions. If you think that women should avoid sexual intercourse to prevent pregnancy, feel free to think that way. But it is never going to happen, and we should recognize that we cannot regulate every human being's activities, and it is not logical and just to do so. Abortion has existed for hundreds of years; nowadays it is a medical procedure performed in a proper setting that is much less dangerous and painful. I think it's rude to call women who have abortions baby killers or other profane terms when they have already suffering as it is.

Sorry about the tangent!
why Should we be respectful to those to terminate what they have done just so they don't have to worry about it? (Then are bothered about it later) What could be stopping them? Money? What is that to new life? Family? What family would stop u from birthing instead of helping u with the baby? Cause u wanna keep your life? u could just put up for adoption and then if they find u, tell them that reason.

u also said we are programmed to reproduce. so it's natural to make a baby. everything about the action leads up to making a baby. take the baby out of it and it a useless action.

And about the Psychological mindset of them, if they were at affected about what they are doing, what words you say are just bringing up what they think. i mean, nobody should have to sugarcoat it. And if they really Can't handle the words, then they REALLY aren't up to the task of abortion.

Another interesting thing, since abortion is also damaging, why is it better than not doing the action? since u won't even have any damage psychologically, even in adoption too.

I mean, u did the action. if it was of your free will, i don't see why some else would have to pay for them and be rob of experiencing the life many of us like enough to fear it's end.

I don't think name calling is needed. i think those people should just say "those people who kill there babies". Get to the point. no special name needed.

I mean, It could be a case of life threatening, which then is okay. Though if there is a Mother who would give up their life for their Child, Well... whoever is the father better realize who He just lost.

Now rape is somewhat of a grey area (Losing will to type on subject)

(also i would like to know what reason someone would have to not be able to put a baby up for adoption but still be able to afford abortion?)
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Old October 16th, 2013 (05:33 PM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
Hard decisions are not psychological torture. If a person feels bad because they are unable to grapple with worldview that believes abortion is "taking a life", that is not psychological torture. And just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not murder. There are more intricate ways of "taking a life" than abortion. I don't see how this passage refutes TheTorraRegion's claims.



That's quite the diluted interpretation of "natural" and "programmed". I don't think I'd feel good about myself if I reasoned the reason I'd have sex is because "it's natural" and "I'm programmed to do so". We do it because it feels good. We do it /recreationally/. It's for fun. And since we're raised in a society in which we do things for fun, we tend to forget and push aside the natural consequence of pregnancy. We try to separate the two, pregnancy and sex are two different things - the former is a decision while the latter is natural - I'm sure that many people can tell you it's the former that's natural and it's the latter that's a choice.

Also, abortion is not the only option. Adoption is an option. Caring for the child is an option. Now, if we are mindful of the assumption that a pregnancy should not affect my quality of life and others, then yes abortion is the only option. But we have to be mindful when we say we /must/ or /mustn't/ do something.



That logic only applies if the mother's body is in danger. And if the only thing that matters is that the mother's expense of resources, wouldn't that justify the termination of the pregnancy whenever she likes, because it should be /her/ choice over /her/ resources? Parents do not have that level of control over their children, even though they supply all the resources involved in raising a child - we have laws that project a responsibility to protect onto parents. Clearly, that tells me that the mother's "ownership" of resources cannot be a deciding factor in when or if an abortion should occur. There has to be another way to justify when a woman can choose to cancel her continuing a pregnancy/
The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.

Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.

Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.



Quote originally posted by AzuGazer:
(also i would like to know what reason someone would have to not be able to put a baby up for adoption but still be able to afford abortion?)
Ah, there's a lot of stuff I could say in response to your post, but I just wanna respond to this one for now.

Pregnancy usually puts you in the hospital and there are lots of medical expenses that you'll rack up. Thousands and thousands. More if you don't have health insurance, or your health insurance isn't that great. If you have certain medical conditions (preclampsia, for instance) you may need extra tests and care for a long time leading up to actual birth. Take into account time lost from the pregnancy that could have been spent working and the cost is even higher.

Abortions, on the other hand can be only a few hundred dollars. They can be more expensive, true, but on the whole the costs are a lot lower.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (05:48 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.

Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.

Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.




Ah, there's a lot of stuff I could say in response to your post, but I just wanna respond to this one for now.

Pregnancy usually puts you in the hospital and there are lots of medical expenses that you'll rack up. Thousands and thousands. More if you don't have health insurance, or your health insurance isn't that great. If you have certain medical conditions (preclampsia, for instance) you may need extra tests and care for a long time leading up to actual birth. Take into account time lost from the pregnancy that could have been spent working and the cost is even higher.

Abortions, on the other hand can be only a few hundred dollars. They can be more expensive, true, but on the whole the costs are a lot lower.
:O i see... then again, if u don't have health insurance. why not just get it done at home? -3- simple and cost effective.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (05:54 PM).
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Should also mention that not everyone is willing to actually go through with a pregnancy and childbirth. That's actually something I fear.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (06:14 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Scarf:
The psychological torture can come from other people, such as protestors outside of the local Planned Parenthood. You may not feel that what you're doing is murder, but when strangers start throwing hate at you it's, well, torture is one word people can use.
"Torture" does not come from the absence or unavailability of abortion itself. People who harass others should be punished, but they're two separate things. I reject that having someone tell you "abortion is taking a life" as torture.

Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Perhaps calling it "natural" is oversimplifying it, but we do have hormones and most of us have a desire for some kind of sexual activity. Obviously that's not an excuse to do anything, but when you and another person mutually want to do something that your bodies are encouraging you to do, that is a mix of the "natural" (or maybe "emotional" is a better word) and, what, the "rational" I guess is as good a word as any.
I disagree, or at least object, to how you describe it as "something your bodies are encouraging you to do". Given such a loose application of what "your body urges", I could describe having cocoa or wanting to play soccer as "something my body is encouraging me to do". There is a hormonal component to everything that we do - sure, sex has its own stimulus pathways - but that in itself doesn't make it different from any other behaviour. I don't like how this language implies that sexual activity is some how exempt from the rest of one's agency - it's misleading. It's sex, and it's a behaviour. It's not very otherly, and we shouldn't hold it in some mystique it doesn't deserve.

Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Although I'm of the mindset that "whenever she likes" is a good rule of thumb for abortion, there is a lot of grey area between "mother's life in danger" and "whenever she likes" that should give someone who isn't of my mindset something to consider. Some women develop certain conditions during pregnancy that may not threaten their lives, but can harm their health. The expenses of a pregnancy can mean a woman's unable to provide for a child she already has, too.
My point with respect to this passage:

Quote:
That logic only applies if the mother's body is in danger. And if the only thing that matters is that the mother's expense of resources, wouldn't that justify the termination of the pregnancy whenever she likes, because it should be /her/ choice over /her/ resources? Parents do not have that level of control over their children, even though they supply all the resources involved in raising a child - we have laws that project a responsibility to protect onto parents. Clearly, that tells me that the mother's "ownership" of resources cannot be a deciding factor in when or if an abortion should occur. There has to be another way to justify when a woman can choose to cancel her continuing a pregnancy.
... is that the mother's ground for having abortion does/should not come from the simple fact that she provides resources to the fetus.

I don't disagree with what you have to say otherwise.
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Old October 16th, 2013 (08:03 PM).
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The horror. The horror, koff~

When I hear this argument, I instantly view all of the religious nuts and crazies who go nutso for this stuff. Fire bombings, shootings, stabbings, violent sit-ins, etc. If you walk around saying violence and death is bad, then you shouldn't be walking around promoting violence and death for others.

I view these people the same as I view cop killers: these people are just trying to do their job. Sure, you say it's immoral, but it's lawful as of late, so clam the hell up. Just because this law is 'unjust' and a 'perversion of nature' does not lend you legal rights to attack abortion doctors or their patients. We can't have this, because it creates multiple issues involving laws, arson, and murder for hire (Abortion doctor 'hit-lists'). Fun to know that the wackos are on your side, huh? Weird and dangerous subject, koffi~
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Old October 16th, 2013 (11:09 PM).
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Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
"Torture" does not come from the absence or unavailability of abortion itself. People who harass others should be punished, but they're two separate things. I reject that having someone tell you "abortion is taking a life" as torture.



I disagree, or at least object, to how you describe it as "something your bodies are encouraging you to do". Given such a loose application of what "your body urges", I could describe having cocoa or wanting to play soccer as "something my body is encouraging me to do". There is a hormonal component to everything that we do - sure, sex has its own stimulus pathways - but that in itself doesn't make it different from any other behaviour. I don't like how this language implies that sexual activity is some how exempt from the rest of one's agency - it's misleading. It's sex, and it's a behaviour. It's not very otherly, and we shouldn't hold it in some mystique it doesn't deserve.
I'm not saying "torture" is the only appropriate word, just one that might be depending on the situation. Particularly I was pointing to those instances where angry protesters yell at women trying to get into clinics, saying things like "You're going to hell for this" and stuff of that nature. For a women who might be in a tough spot because of various pressures because of an unplanned pregnancy it can be very stressful for her. And no, I'm not equating stressful = torture.

I was merely trying to say that humans are not 100% logic machines. We don't always act in our best interests and we can let our feelings/hormones/etc. get the better of us at times, particularly when we're teenagers. And yes, sex is something different because up to puberty you can have cocoa and play soccer and at puberty you're dealing with something altogether new. Again, I don't think hormones excuse all behavior, but I think one should allow for some room to make mistakes as we're not perfect and as long as no ill intent is behind one's actions we shouldn't come down hard on a person because they had sex.
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