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  #51    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:42 AM
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I can easily tell you the difference between now and later (not so much before). As long as PC continues to not enforce COPPA, PC is at risk for some sort of litigation. All it takes is an irate parent, or some troll who doesn't give a crap about collateral damage, to file a complaint on the COPPA website for PC to at least get investigated. IF PC is found guilty, PC will have to pay a fine and then bring the site to COPPA standards, or risk getting shut down. When it comes to the law, now is always safer than later.

In the beginning, the law was meant to make it a lot harder for criminals to do their work (identity thieves, RL meetups, etc.) but it's since been expanded to include getting any sort of important information from kids (data mining, selling data to companies, privacy, all that jazz). Before you ask what sort of information PC asks for, lemme point to you the option to make public the age and birthday on your account. JUST those options forces PC to conform to COPPA. And let's not go into the gaming network identities option. That would definitely fall under COPPA.
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Last edited by Griffinbane; August 22nd, 2013 at 10:04 AM.
  #52    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:22 AM
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Hey, I was just wondering if we should apply this new rule to the PC Pokemon Showdown server? I mean come on, the server is likely to be more harmful to children than the forums are (because the forums are heavily moderated). I think that this new rule should apply to the PC server especially because sometimes the discussions get a little out of hand and perhaps a little bit more than PG-13. I definitely support the idea of protecting our youngins from harmful material and I don't think it's very fair to the moderators on the PC forum to have to worry about what older members are talking about in the main chat especially considering how busy some of the moderators are irl.

As a 17 year old big brother to a new and upcoming pokemon player (who's not quite 13 yet he's turning 13 in the next few months), I think that he should not be able to come on the PC server and discuss with the members yet due to his naive and tender little mind. I just really want to protect my younger, pokemon playing siblings and everyone's younger pokemon playing siblings about the globe. Thanks.
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  #53    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:26 AM
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Pokecommunity does not own the Showdown Server. COPPA used to be enforced in Showdown, however, the rule has since been removed months ago, I believe.

With that being said, I completely disagree with this. I do not see the ultimate accomplishment of blocking children from the server, especially if all they want to do is battle. :\
  #54    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder_Chad View Post
Hey, I was just wondering if we should apply this new rule to the PC Pokemon Showdown server? I mean come on, the server is likely to be more harmful to children than the forums are (because the forums are heavily moderated). I think that this new rule should apply to the PC server especially because sometimes the discussions get a little out of hand and perhaps a little bit more than PG-13. I definitely support the idea of protecting our youngins from harmful material and I don't think it's very fair to the moderators on the PC forum to have to worry about what older members are talking about in the main chat especially considering how busy some of the moderators are irl.

As a 17 year old big brother to a new and upcoming pokemon player (who's not quite 13 yet he's turning 13 in the next few months), I think that he should not be able to come on the PC server and discuss with the members yet due to his naive and tender little mind. I just really want to protect my younger, pokemon playing siblings and everyone's younger pokemon playing siblings about the globe. Thanks.
This is a horrible idea tbh. The server is heavily moderated by a great staff team and we do not allow such discussions. PS also does not ask for personal information so yeah..I don't see the point in banning people from the server when it doesnt ask for personal information and the chat is kept under a close watch at all times.
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Last edited by Powalen; August 22nd, 2013 at 10:36 AM.
  #55    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:38 AM
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Okay, I've spoken to a moderator (keeping them anonymous) and it honestly seems that, from what I've gotten, there's a misunderstanding with thinking that COPPA applies to showdown: It doesn't.

The Showdown rule regarding COPPA was removed ages ago by Zarel. I believe there's some sort of confusion regarding rule #2 as far as "follow all US laws" but i believe that is in regards to "Don't distribute pirated material, and don't slander others.", as far as my understanding comes out of it. It is also worded that PS is available to users under 18, which includes those that are under 13 as well.

I apologize if this wording is poor, I hope I clarified the best that I can.
  #56    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:40 AM
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And all they want to do on here is the same thing.... battle. I don't see the point in blocking one but not the other. You guys have every right to block younger children from entering the server at risk that they may be harmed from the discussions there. I am not saying that the moderation staff on the server is bad because it's not. The moderators there are excellent but I don't see the reason why said moderators need to worry about potential "bad" discussions harming younger members when they could just not let them on for a few months until they turn 13 and everything would be peachy keen. It's not fair to the moderators or the other members to have to put up with this massive responsibility.
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  #57    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder_Chad View Post
And all they want to do on here is the same thing.... battle. I don't see the point in blocking one but not the other. You guys have every right to block younger children from entering the server at risk that they may be harmed from the discussions there. I am not saying that the moderation staff on the server is bad because it's not. The moderators there are excellent but I don't see the reason why said moderators need to worry about potential "bad" discussions harming younger members when they could just not let them on for a few months until they turn 13 and everything would be peachy keen. It's not fair to the moderators or the other members to have to put up with this massive responsibility.

You act as if it is a huge burden for us. Moderating the server and keeping the chats appropriate for our younger users is easy and not a burden at all. We all enjoy it and wouldn't be doing so if we didn't. You also say that it isn't fair blocking them from one and not the other, well PC=/= PS. Yes it is PC's official server, but has completely different rules when concerning COPPA.
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  #58    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Okay, I've spoken to a moderator (keeping them anonymous) and it honestly seems that, from what I've gotten, there's a misunderstanding with thinking that COPPA applies to showdown: It doesn't.

The Showdown rule regarding COPPA was removed ages ago by Zarel. I believe there's some sort of confusion regarding rule #2 as far as "follow all US laws" but i believe that is in regards to "Don't distribute pirated material, and don't slander others.", as far as my understanding comes out of it. It is also worded that PS is available to users under 18, which includes those that are under 13 as well.

I apologize if this wording is poor, I hope I clarified the best that I can.
If you click the "rules" link on the showdown you'll actually see that it mentions that players should be 13 or over. Their privacy policy is the specific bit.

And even beyond that, PS is still within law which would completely override any local rules on age. The rules section does state that the PS will follow US laws.

/editing some links in
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  #59    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
If you click the "rules" link on the showdown you'll actually see that it mentions that players should be 13 or over.

And even beyond that, PS is still within law which would completely override any local rules on age.
Not to be rude, but kindly show me where it says that, because I must be missing something. That would also be contradicting the rule that PS is available to users under 18, it says nothing about users under 13. All in all, the rule wording is very fishy and I think we're only going to put ourselves in a bind if we're going to overanalyze showdown's rules and apply them to PC's server lol .-.
  #60    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:53 AM
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There's no data to be gotten off Showdown so it doesn't fall under COPPA laws (unless you're using the same name and pass for everything, don't do that). After all, all you do is register a name and then build a team. What personal data can you get off of that other than your personal battle preferences? For Showdown, it is completely up to the moderators. PC does fall under COPPA, for some of the reasons I stated earlier. If you want your brother to stay off Showdown, you'll have to block him yourself.
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  #61    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
If you click the "rules" link on the showdown you'll actually see that it mentions that players should be 13 or over. Their privacy policy is the specific bit.

And even beyond that, PS is still within law which would completely override any local rules on age. The rules section does state that the PS will follow US laws.

/editing some links in
Exactly. The rule already applies on Showdown and it needs to be applied on the PC server to protect our up and coming younger members. Also, if we don't use the PC forum rules on the server and we don't use the Showdown rules on the server than what rules do we use? I'm pretty sure that a few posts ago you guys said that PC =/= Showdown so I think we need to quickly make this change and use Showdown's rules with COPPA.
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  #62    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Not to be rude, but kindly show me where it says that, because I must be missing something. That would also be contradicting the rule that PS is available to users under 18, it says nothing about users under 13. All in all, the rule wording is very fishy and I think we're only going to put ourselves in a bind if we're going to overanalyze showdown's rules and apply them to PC's server lol .-.
I'm sorry for the slight mistake, I edited my post which makes it clear the over 13 bit is in the Privacy Policy.
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  #63    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
I'm sorry for the slight mistake, I edited my post which makes it clear the over 13 bit is in the Privacy Policy.
Children under 13 should not use Showdown. It doesn't say that they cannot use Showdown. u_u
  #64    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Children under 13 should not use Showdown. It doesn't say that they cannot use Showdown. u_u
Well, now you're digging in to technicalities.

I'll share my personal opinion: Under 13s should be allowed on anonymously (as like you said, it does not involve sharing much personal information as long as they don't discuss their details) however they should not be voiced or acting as moderators - that, to me, implies information.



Whatever actually happens though, will be up to those staff in charge of the servers/higher staff.
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  #65    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
Well, now you're digging in to technicalities.

I'll share my personal opinion: Under 13s should be allowed on anonymously (as like you said, it does not involve sharing much personal information as long as they don't discuss their details) however they should not be voiced or acting as moderators - that, to me, implies information.
But out of curiosity, what does the voiced position or moderation status have anything to do with age? I cannot find an exact correlation between the two, whatsoever. .-.
  #66    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:07 AM
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But out of curiosity, what does the voiced position or moderation status have anything to do with age? I cannot find an exact correlation between the two, whatsoever. .-.
Their ability has nothing to do with it. COPPA does. It's really unfortunate, we've seen some great members be banned.
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  #67    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:17 AM
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Pokémon Showdown does not belong to PC, so we have nothing to do with how they handle the COPPA laws. That's as far as it goes, really.
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  #68    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Just to clarify, the battle server would have to stay PG-13 regardless of if COPPA is enforced there, as it follows the same rules as PC.

Anyway, COPPA is enforced on PS as it follows the US laws (stated in both their rules and privacy policy), but third-party servers such as PC's aren't necessarily obligated to follow them. PS and Smogon don't take responsibility for what the other servers do. Still, there's a chance that the battle server could get in trouble just like PC could if it didn't enforce COPPA. However, Griff makes a good point about there being no data to gain from PS aside from chat logs.
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  #69    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Urf, I guess I was confusing people. Every website based in the US has to follow COPPA. It's just that Showdown managed to slim everything down to the point where they don't have to worry about it since no one can get any information off registering. The only way I can see Showdown getting in trouble is if someone decided to start pumping kids for information. Either way, PC and Showdown are more or less separate. PC has a defined set of rules stated clearly (or mostly). For PC's Showdown server, that is up to the moderators.

I am sorry for the kids who got caught in the sweep, but the risk to PC is greater than their inconvenience. They'll just have to annoy their parents for written consent, or wait until they're 13 to petition to be unbanned. If anyone's got an issue with the rules, they really ought to petition to the US government and their local representative. PC cannot do anything about this.
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  #70    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
But out of curiosity, what does the voiced position or moderation status have anything to do with age? I cannot find an exact correlation between the two, whatsoever. .-.
Of the two, I can definitely see one in the moderation status. Since COPPA protects kids from whatever is on the web, let's say someone starts posting porn everywhere. A moderator's job is to make sure this is gone from their section, but if it's a "child" that's having to do it, it'd be against COPPA.
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  #71    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Magic Fox View Post
I'm sorry for the slight mistake, I edited my post which makes it clear the over 13 bit is in the Privacy Policy.
I'm a driver on the main Pokemon Showdown server and I can guarantee you that we do not enforce COPPA, you can say you're 5 and none of us auth can do anything about it (unfortunately). Even if it's in the privacy policy it isn't enforced, so. Nevertheless that's even more reason why PC's server doesn't need to enforce COPPA, especially if a huge server like that doesn't.
  #72    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post
I'm a driver on the main Pokemon Showdown server and I can guarantee you that we do not enforce COPPA, you can say you're 5 and none of us auth can do anything about it (unfortunately). Even if it's in the privacy policy it isn't enforced, so. Nevertheless that's even more reason why PC's server doesn't need to enforce COPPA, especially if a huge server like that doesn't.
^
That, lol. If the main Pokemon Showdown server doesn't enforce COPPA, why should smaller ones. Nobody's gonna get sued for letting kids battle Pokemon.
All that will do is decrease activity because we'll lose members on a server that already has frequent inactivity.
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  #73    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:10 PM
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Of the two, I can definitely see one in the moderation status. Since COPPA protects kids from whatever is on the web, let's say someone starts posting porn everywhere. A moderator's job is to make sure this is gone from their section, but if it's a "child" that's having to do it, it'd be against COPPA.
Logiedan is going to be in so much trouble :p ik ik

----

First off, we don't really require any information, other than your birthday. We used to have the T-Dome but since that's not there we don't have to really even use the birthday option at all. For example, Olli97 is listed as 11 or something but he's really 16 or so, and the aformentioned case of Logiedan who lists it at 2. The first problem is that it's fun (if not funny :p), and the second is that these people have set their ages as under 13 because they feel like it's funny, representing a different time span in their lives, whatever the reason, and you're taking that away from them. Granted, this shouldn't be a huge deal to them (if they're well-adjusted), but it still is important to them.

Secondly, the parts where we do require information, is usually just usernames and stuff. For example, if you list your Steam account, Valve (that's the company that owns Steam if you didn't know) is the one who's going to have to deal with COPPA, rather than us.

And furthermore, if the staff chooses you to be a moderator, then you probably, without any doubt, have matured emotionally and mentally past the point of an 18-year old, and thus probably won't be too scarred from deleting some porn, unaware that they are stalked, etc. even if you were 7 or something, so this is a pretty dumb way to "protect children". There are emotional prodigies in this world and they are more common than you would think.
Though the site can't rebel against laws like that, but just a thought. Maybe more stringent modding standards? Maybe some personal contact info before modding? idek

Whatever…most of the members here are probably mature enough to deal with it with their parents or something if they do happen to be under 13. But really, if you guys make sure everyone on staff is 13+ the whole COPPA doesn't really apply to us, only individual members.
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  #74    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:05 PM
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I like disclosing my personal information but I would have no problems of changing, removing or revealing my age because of this law. Just say the word.
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  #75    
Old August 22nd, 2013, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever View Post
I'm a driver on the main Pokemon Showdown server and I can guarantee you that we do not enforce COPPA, you can say you're 5 and none of us auth can do anything about it (unfortunately). Even if it's in the privacy policy it isn't enforced, so. Nevertheless that's even more reason why PC's server doesn't need to enforce COPPA, especially if a huge server like that doesn't.
If it's going to continue to be affiliated with the site in the semi-official way it is now, then yes, it will have to.
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