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  #1    
Old August 22nd, 2013 (05:37 AM). Edited August 23rd, 2013 by BraveNewWorld.
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http://news.yahoo.com/bradley-manning-says-wants-live-woman-120700028.html

Quote:
Bradley Manning plans to live as a woman named Chelsea and wants to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible, the soldier said Thursday, a day after being sentenced to 35 years in prison for sending classified material to WikiLeaks. Manning announced the decision in a written statement provided to NBC's "Today" show, asking supporters to refer to him by his new name and the feminine pronoun. The statement was signed "Chelsea E. Manning."
"As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible," the statement read.
Manning's defense attorney David Coombs told "Today" in an interview that he is hoping officials at the military prison in Fort Leavenworth, Kan., will accommodate Manning's request for hormone therapy.
"If Fort Leavenworth does not, then I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure they are forced to do so," Coombs said.
Coombs did not respond to phone and email messages from The Associated Press on Thursday.
Personally I feel that after being tried in court and being sentenced to prison you shouldn't be able to use the taxpayer's money for something like this. I'm fine with any medical procedure taking place to keep him alive, but this seems ridiculous (though I know sex change operations happen fairly frequently in prison, the high profile of this case draws extra attention to it.)

What do you all think?
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (06:15 AM).
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What's the point of this, exactly? I'm just curious, no offense intended.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (06:30 AM).
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He has gender dysphoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder) and he wants to be as happy as possible. That's the point of this.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (07:38 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Silais:
What's the point of this, exactly? I'm just curious, no offense intended.
He's a guy who's been slapped with a bunch of a B.S. charges so the news wants to cover every facet of his life.

Honestly, if he wants a sex change, that's his choice, but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon. Unless they allow those sorts of things in prison, that is.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (09:06 AM).
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Please honor pronouns, please. Also, I agree that the charges are BS. She's just being made an example, that's it. She found evidence that the military was actively killing and torturing civilians and she didn't think they should get away with it. I think she's a hero.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (11:05 AM).
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Hmm.. to me it's a bit.. scary why this is considered news. It's someone's personal life choice and we have no business in it, especially when it's not breaking any laws. :/ I hate when people's personal choices become like a showcase for the rest of the population.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (11:33 AM).
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I guess this could factor into the broader question about transgender prisons inmates. So I will address transgender inmates generally, as opposed to this particular individual.

The therapies and surgeries are expensive, the family/inmate should be responsible for paying for the treatment rather than have that burden fall on taxpayers. He made the decision to violate many Federal laws and that limits his right to certain resources as opposed to someone who is a law abiding citizen.

Another issue beyond the costs of treatments is which facility to place the inmate. Transgender women who prior to prison sentencing have undergone therapies may end up in a women's facility since the male inmate population would...be a little too friendly, causing additional conflict. There is a question of which prison would be best fit for the individual and the inmate population. It's not a clear-cut answer for each case.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (12:36 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Fenneking:
I guess this could factor into the broader question about transgender prisons inmates. So I will address transgender inmates generally, as opposed to this particular individual.

The therapies and surgeries are expensive, the family/inmate should be responsible for paying for the treatment rather than have that burden fall on taxpayers. He made the decision to violate many Federal laws and that limits his right to certain resources as opposed to someone who is a law abiding citizen.

Another issue beyond the costs of treatments is which facility to place the inmate. Transgender women who prior to prison sentencing have undergone therapies may end up in a women's facility since the male inmate population would...be a little too friendly, causing additional conflict. There is a question of which prison would be best fit for the individual and the inmate population. It's not a clear-cut answer for each case.
I would put more emphasis on may. Most trans women inmates end up in men's prisons. California was the first to make it into law that trans prisoners go to the prison they identify with. Most states go by birth sex.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (12:53 PM).
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Regardless of whether she is considered a traitor or not, she was discharged dishonorably from the military, and people who are let go this way cannot get any benefits whatsoever. Let her do what she wants.. I just hope she is the one who pays for the treatments. Don't put the tab on taxpayers. Also, I was reading earlier that the prison they are in doesn't allow for these types of treatments, so I'm not sure if she will be granted them or not.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (12:58 PM).
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Well, she should get them. I agree that it shouldn't be on tax payer money, but if she has a way it should be her right to do it.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (01:32 PM).
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I have no idea why he (still legally a he) decided to say this now, but... While I'm wholly supportive of his case and, if he undergoes treatment, of his acceptance into the society as a woman, I feel he revealed this to the media as a desperate attempt to lower his penalty or something like that.

At least the treatment should bring some peace to someone who shouldn't even have been charged with such a harsh penalty in the first place.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (01:33 PM). Edited August 22nd, 2013 by Kura.
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Maybe I'm harsh but I believe that if you break the law and have a large enough sentence to have to go to jail, you sign away your rights for whatever time period your sentence is. Of course it depends on the crime but it mortifies me that kids don't get free food in school (I had a friend in highschool who told me years later she was skipping meals and sleeping at her job) and inmates can sit there all day and do nothing and get their food handed to them like .. well.. nothing. I think that he and other inmates should do something in order to get that. Don't care if other people deem it "labour".. to me it's just doing what everyone else does- making a living and working to eat. Let's put the sex aside and focus on physicalities for a sec, since we can all relate to that a bit more: I could say I would love to be able to get breast implants from the government and blame it on psychological issues to try and get it free- just like I am sure other people who are unhappy with how they are physically would love to change things about themselves without the worry of a pricetag.. but it's not realistic to use taxpayers' money. But heck, people attempt it and are even successful and I think it's wrong. (hear about the girl who got those E sized jugs and used the same story a while back?) I don't think it's fair. I think people need to pay for it themselves.
Taxpayers' money should go towards a community's benefit. Not one individuals' benefits.

However, I see no problem with hormonal drugs being allowed in prisons if the person locked up had paid for it themselves.


What I think the media is trying to do is paint him as a crazy person.. to devaluate the things he said prior. What the media doesnt understand is that there isn't anything crazy about changing who you identify with. Maybe religious extremists might think so.. but they are in the minority anyways (and who are we kidding.. they're extremists haha) so.. who cares?
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (01:59 PM).
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We should also look beyond what Manning wants to do. Patients don't always know what is best for them always. With that said, undergoing the hormonal replacement therapy has several psychological/physiological side-effects, depression and changes in mood are two big ones. With the stress of the prison environment, which should not be underestimated, this may not be the right conditions to undergo the therapy. Though, it's a concern, we shouldn't automatically assume that this therapy would be detrimental to the psychological health. Though certainly a medical psychologist should be the judge of that especially given each patient's individual needs including their psychological health to begin with. Manning has a document history of violent outbreaks and irrational behavior of which should be assessed by an objective party. Additionally, how do all of these factors, prison, side effects, and patient's psychological health all come together? Certainly, as individuals, we cannot make such an assessment given our lack of expertise as well as our lack of objectivity for our treatment options.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (02:10 PM).
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Well one thing's for sure, if he/she goes into a men's prison now he won't be alive loong enough to start the hormonal therapy.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (02:10 PM).
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I don't think inmates are entitled to psychological therapy unless they have insurance for it, or are willing to pay for it out of pocket. Again it's surprising to me that schools often don't offer medically-trained councellors but prisons do? Why???? If she wants to undergo the treatment knowing those risks then I see no reason why she shouldn't.

Also I realize I was using he when I probably should be using she in the previous post I made.. and fuu.. PC is lagging too much for me to edit properly.. so sorry.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (02:38 PM).
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We should also look beyond what Manning wants to do as well. Patients don't always know what is best for them always if often. With that said, undergoing the hormonal replacement therapy has several psychological/physiological side-effects, depression and changes in mood are two big ones. With the stress of the prison environment, which should not be underestimated, this may not be the right conditions to undergo the therapy. Though, it's a concern, we shouldn't automatically assume that this therapy would be detrimental to the psychological health. Though certainly a medical psychologist should be the judge of that especially given each patient's individual needs including their psychological health to begin with. Manning has a document history of violent outbreaks and irrational behavior of which should be assessed by an objective party. Additionally, how do all of these factors, prison, side effects, and patient's psychological health all come together? Certainly, as individuals, we cannot make such an assessment given our lack of expertise as well as our lack of objectivity for our own treatment options.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (03:04 PM). Edited August 22nd, 2013 by Stormbringer.
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Eh, I don't care what the traitorous piece of crap does with himself. I'm guessing Bradley Manning doesn't have all his lights on upstairs anyways. I don't know why people sympathize with him/her.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (04:24 PM).
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I don't agree that prisoners don't have rights. They do. They are still human beings, after all. There's a reason why we don't use prisoners for slave labor, don't beat them up or kill them randomly, or why we're not allowed to torture them. They have rights. I think it's easy from a privileged outlook to look down on them, but that's ignoring the reality. The reality is that there's very little keeping you from being thrown in jail. Anyone can find themselves in prison for one reason or another. Not everyone in jail is a monster.

Quote originally posted by Cerberus87:
I have no idea why he (still legally a he)...
Quote originally posted by Snowdrop:
I don't know why people sympathize with him/her/it.
Also, can we please stop dehumanizing transgender people in this thread? We do deserve respect and misgendering a trans person is one of the most insulting things you can do. I'm asking nicely to stop.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (04:38 PM).
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I get why he's in the news and all, but why is this in the news? Who gives a ****?
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (04:43 PM).
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It'd be interesting to take a look at how this affected the chain of events so far, and how transitioning given his circumstances would play out. We could look at what resources he has available to transition, and this could bring up the question of what this means for the rest of us - as Fenneking has introduced. He's an interesting personality in the public eye and I think it's a good learning experience to pick away at what it all means.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (04:52 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Snowdrop:
I don't know why people sympathize with him/her/it.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because some of us believe in freedom of speech and some of the stuff that he...well, okay she...leaked showed atrocities committed by some corrupt U.S. soldiers who shouldn't have been in the army to begin with?
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (06:43 PM). Edited August 22nd, 2013 by Snowdrop.
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Quote originally posted by Psycho Yuffie:
I don't agree that prisoners don't have rights. They do. They are still human beings, after all. There's a reason why we don't use prisoners for slave labor, don't beat them up or kill them randomly, or why we're not allowed to torture them. They have rights. I think it's easy from a privileged outlook to look down on them, but that's ignoring the reality. The reality is that there's very little keeping you from being thrown in jail. Anyone can find themselves in prison for one reason or another. Not everyone in jail is a monster.





Also, can we please stop dehumanizing transgender people in this thread? We do deserve respect and misgendering a trans person is one of the most insulting things you can do. I'm asking nicely to stop.
Don't make up stuff that I said. The fact that he identifies as female has nothing to do with what I think of him. He feels more comfortable as a woman? More power to him! There are a lot of people in the same shoes, apparently.

I knew people were going to get huffy when I said "why would you sympathize with someone like that." And apparently in the courtroom he literally said he f*cking hates this country. Those soldiers may have done some messed up stuff, but they don't represent the majority. He leaked hundreds of thousands of other documents with classified information. However, I don't think this guy's evil or really malicious. Just... overly self-justified, I guess you could call it. And his prison sentence is a bit much (at least I think so). But still, he leaked important information and that's that. Freedom of speech carries far but not that far.

... and I've just broke my own philosophy about not arguing. I'm out!

EDIT: One last thing, I suppose I should clarify, by sympathize with him I didn't mean people who also feel they aren't the right gender, or people who feel they don't even belong to a gender at all. I meant feel bad that people see him as a traitor. Yeah, this is why I never debate :U
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (06:51 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Kura:
Hmm.. to me it's a bit.. scary why this is considered news. It's someone's personal life choice and we have no business in it, especially when it's not breaking any laws. :/ I hate when people's personal choices become like a showcase for the rest of the population.
Quote originally posted by Dominic:
I get why he's in the news and all, but why is this in the news? Who gives a ****?
because a woman is being sentenced to prison with MEN. she is being tortured and punished cruelly because the government is refusing her status as a transwoman and is not offering her the hormone replacement therapy she needs. HRT has been effectively proven to treat gender dysphoria.

and for the record, Chelsea Manning has been a transwoman for a while now. i'd give links but i don't have enough posts but just google search "global comment breanna manning" and the first two searches (results from globalcomment and feministing) is what i'm talking about and note the date the articles were posted. the real announcement is that she wants to start her transition.

and yes, please stop with the misgendering- its disrespectful and cissexist.
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Old August 22nd, 2013 (07:37 PM). Edited August 22nd, 2013 by The Dark Avenger.
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Quote originally posted by CarcharOdin:
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because some of us believe in freedom of speech and some of the stuff that he...well, okay she...leaked showed atrocities committed by some corrupt U.S. soldiers who shouldn't have been in the army to begin with?
Quote:
Snowdrop.
Eh, I don't care what the traitorous piece of crap does with himself. I'm guessing Bradley Manning doesn't have all his lights on upstairs anyways. I don't know why people sympathize with him/her/it.

Don't make up stuff that I said. The fact that he identifies as female has nothing to do with what I think of him. He feels more comfortable as a woman? More power to him! There are a lot of people in the same shoes, apparently.

I knew people were going to get huffy when I said "why would you sympathize with someone like that." And apparently in the courtroom he literally said he f*cking hates this country. Those soldiers may have done some messed up stuff, but they don't represent the majority. He leaked hundreds of thousands of other documents with classified information. However, I don't think this guy's evil or really malicious. Just... overly self-justified, I guess you could call it. And his prison sentence is a bit much (at least I think so). But still, he leaked important information and that's that. Freedom of speech carries far but not that far.
We have discuss this several times before, but it's a bit off topic, so I will just offer a brief reasoning as to why this is not Constitutionally guarenteed freedom of speech. First off, not all speech is protected. Second, this speech is prohibited by Federal laws, especially given it concerns military operations the freedom of speech undergoes a much higher scrutiny as observed in U.S. Supreme Court Cases, as speech may inhibit certain military objectives. If the Courts condoned Manning's actions, it would encourage more leaks, and thus more conflicts which is demonstrated by the third point. Thirdly, the consequences of leaks had a MASSIVE negative effect upon U.S foreign policy as well as peace relations with the "the West" and the Middle Eastern nations. The information and footage intercepted by Al-Qaeda enabled them to mobilize into other regions. The group prior to the leaks was isolated in very few regions. Further, the leaks have mobilized uprisings, which, again, allows for organizations like Al-Qaeda to mobilize and recruit members as well as create societal tensions and violence of which is not conducive with stability and/or a gradual shift to democratic institutions. Further, given that uprising groups, at the very least initially, were of Anti-American policy, democratic institutions being built upon that premise is troubling for the U.S. and its allies, and thus, the Middle Eastern region itself. Now, many people have lauded the Arab Spring for empowering the citizens to institute democracy, when in fact it is causing more vigilantism, military coups, and increase in government authoritarian and despotism in order to remedy these movements. Thus, civil wars. Additionally, the citizens themselves are divided more than ever; it's not just authoritarian regimes vs. citizens. Look at Syria, Yemen, Libya, and Egypt. They are all chaotic and divided over traditions/customs vs secularism. Provoking this movement was not a conscious decision by Manning, he was not in a right state of mind to decide the fate of all of these nations' stability and how it affects the entire global community. Certainly, certainly, we can point the finger at both the Bush and Obama administrations for implementing policies that encouraged protests and political dissonance; however, Mannings unilateral decision inflamed the situation with the middle east, as it was the platform by which allowed the Arab Spring to commence and mobilize. Though, we can certainly say Mannings intentions were good, there are reasons why the law prohibits certain behaviors of those with classified information due to the high sensitivity of that information, of which has a profound affect on the entire world. I have said it before, he was not in the right state of mind to be making these decision or have the power and accessibility to this information given Manning's extensive record of erratic behavior and violent outbursts. Manning's commanders should bear some of the liability for the unlawful actions. Though he has highly aggravated the already shaky relationship with the U.S and Middle Eastern region, he should be treated like any other prisoner, not like any other law-abiding transgender person, nor worse than any other prisoner. Manning's sentencing is justified, so it's not a matter of if he should or should not be in prison, it's a matter of how the U.S. Federal Prison addresses gender identification of transgenders in a way that balances the concerns of the inmate as well as the rest of the inmate population in order to reduce conflicts and reduce inequality of medical access among the inmate population. And, to address how medical coverage of prisoners ought to be dealt with in concerns with the rest of the population, i.e law-abiding tax-payers.

We are obfuscating this issue by discussing our personal thoughts on transgender rights in a general sense rather than distinguishing them with transgenders in prison, as well as our personal sentiment of Manning good and bad. Manning being in prison shouldn't dictate or affect how we address policies that affect all transgender people in prisons. Lastly, like other thread, I keep seeing "I/you/we/they have a right or need to..." These are not arguments unless you demonstrate why that is a right rather than simply stating it is an inalienable right. No one is born with the right to anything, rather we justify why some actions are justified in that they are or should be condoned in order to improve society in some form or fashion. Empty truisms of right and wrong are exactly what we need to avoid. Further, please address the pros and cons of a policy, just focusing on the wellbeing of this one individual inmate isn't balancing the concern with the other inmates, taxpayers, and equity of law-abiding transgender persons who are more than likely not offered this surgery/therapy free of charge.

This is why I am not a fan of highly specific news stories that are anecdotes that may speak to broader issues, these instead become convoluted with a multitude of extenuating circumstances that affect how we would have addressed the issue otherwise from a more philosophical standpoint, and rather it becomes personal.
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Old August 23rd, 2013 (05:06 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Psycho Yuffie:
I don't agree that prisoners don't have rights. They do. They are still human beings, after all. There's a reason why we don't use prisoners for slave labor, don't beat them up or kill them randomly, or why we're not allowed to torture them. They have rights. I think it's easy from a privileged outlook to look down on them, but that's ignoring the reality. The reality is that there's very little keeping you from being thrown in jail. Anyone can find themselves in prison for one reason or another. Not everyone in jail is a monster.
.
While that's true, I don't believe they should sit back and get things handed to them like kings. But just like every other human being, I think they need to work (if physically capable to) to earn those rights respectfully. We say having food is a right when really it's not in the real world. There are mothers getting only $120 a month to live on (food, rent, etc) ridiculous. Just like people in asylums earn rights for following their daily pill plans and taking steps towards bettering themselves, I think inmates need to do the same thing. Slave labour and manual labour are completely different things. Regular manual labour has workplace rights and I would think those apply to this case.

And it's also why I said it depends on their initial sentence. If they murdered someone else, I honestly don't care if they get beat up or killed randomly- since to me, a murderer IS a monster and not a human, but I also think that the person doing the beating/killing should also get thrown in jail because they are no better.

Let them build wells for starving children. Let them do something for society. Don't just let them sit on their butts all day and then serve them apples and grapes. Hospitals have it worse and it's sickening. PLUS people even need to PAY to stay overnight at a hospital. WTF is this world coming to?


And as for transgendered people, I think they should be allowed to choose the prison they want to go to if given the initial option (example= what facilities are available for their sentencing.)
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