Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > Off-Topic Discussions > The Round Table
Reload this Page Postgenderism

Notices
For all updates, view the main page.

The Round Table Have a seat at the Round Table for in-depth discussions, extended or serious conversations, and current events. From world news to talks on life, growing up, relationships, and issues in society, this is the place to be. Come be a knight.



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old September 18th, 2013 (10:47 AM). Edited September 20th, 2013 by Kanzler.
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
Crystal Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 4,715
This is something that often comes up in my mind as I roam about this community. Should gender roles be eliminated? Should gender differences be eliminated? Should gender identities be eliminated? Or are any of the above too good to pass up?
^---Unless you have a differing view on this issue, we've got it pretty much covered.

In addition the scope of the issue, the process is also important. If it's something to be desired, should we actively work towards the realization of a postgender world? Should it be voluntary? Is it achievable or is it simply a utopia? How far should we as a society move towards it before it is too much? How far should we push society before it's too much?

Do any of you identify with a postgender worldview? Is it even possible to have a worldview devoid of gender when there is so much focus in our discourse? Is the prominent focus on gender a necessary evil towards realizing a genderless world? Or is a postgender worldview something else altogether - what does it mean to you?

Plenty of questions and nuances to pick at, so discuss away!
__________________
#363 Spheal
Supporter Collab January 2015
mod of nothing
paired to Axeliira
Reply With Quote
  #2    
Old September 18th, 2013 (12:00 PM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper Esper is offline
CS
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 7,621
A lot of questions and things to talk about!

First, I believe that gender roles are not inherent in people, but are a societal creation. Second, I believe that people who follow gender roles are not bad, but that when people are pressured (actively or otherwise) to follow those roles then that pressure is bad. In this sense I would welcome a world without gender roles and, to an extent, gender itself. I have no problem with people having genders, but a gender would perhaps become akin to something like height or hair color. People would see there is gender, but not make a big deal of it. I think it's possible to having something like this in the future.

In the moment I think it's important to talk about gender because there is inequality among the genders. I liken this to race. We all have races, and while we (ideally) don't believe one's race should determine everything about you and what people think of you, there are still race problems in the world and so we have to talk about race even as we work toward a world where race isn't an issue.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #3    
Old September 18th, 2013 (01:52 PM).
Flushed's Avatar
Flushed Flushed is online now
Tomato Soup
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Careful
Posts: 1,975
I feel like gender and its consequent roles shouldn't be abolished, but rather the fluidity for a person of one gender into another role, or gender for that matter, should not be as strictly scrutinized. Worded strangely, but pretty much people shouldn't necessarily clamor about gender when the lines become blurred or when crossing over occurs. That means, for example, the age-old stereotype of women being housewives/whatever the terminology is shouldn't be brought up every time a woman wants to pursue a career. Obviously a postgender world would eliminate a lot of problems, but it could very well cause problems of individuality.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4    
Old September 18th, 2013 (02:36 PM).
Shiny Celebi Shiny Celebi is offline
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Internet
Posts: 2,402
I don't like gender roles. I think people shouldnt be so hard on people that don't fit into certain norms and I hope in the future, society becomes more understanding. I don't see gender roles or pressure to conform to them going away completely, nor do I think the concept of genders should go away. I just think the idea of everyone being exactly the same is weird even though eliminating problems sounds great in theory.
__________________
BMGf Ever Grande City
Reply With Quote
  #5    
Old September 18th, 2013 (02:42 PM).
OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire's Avatar
OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire is offline
10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Coast
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
Posts: 14,978
Quote originally posted by Flush'd:
I feel like gender and its consequent roles shouldn't be abolished, but rather the fluidity for a person of one gender into another role, or gender for that matter, should not be as strictly scrutinized. Worded strangely, but pretty much people shouldn't necessarily clamor about gender when the lines become blurred or when crossing over occurs. That means, for example, the age-old stereotype of women being housewives/whatever the terminology is shouldn't be brought up every time a woman wants to pursue a career. Obviously a postgender world would eliminate a lot of problems, but it could very well cause problems of individuality.
I agree with this view. We should accept those who don't fit or shift between the traditional gender roles.

I also don't see a postgender world happening in our lives times if ever.
__________________
Team Treecko
Reply With Quote
  #6    
Old September 18th, 2013 (07:20 PM).
Echidna's Avatar
Echidna Echidna is offline
Platinum Tier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Vaniville Town
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Brave
Posts: 1,959
I've quit on trying to define all the shapes and forms of equality. For me, I believe in one thing: freedom. I believe that instead of saying we should abolish gender-roles, we should be focusing on acceptance. What I mean is that while many of us dislike gender-roles and want them gone, I don't think that's possible. What is possible, however, is to advertise acceptance, in a sense. We should respect peoples' freedoms and simply accept whatever they want to do.

Whether a certain person wants to abide by the roles society has determined for them or whether they want to take on a whole new life and a whole new set of responsibilities should be their own choice. And whichever choice they make, if people would just learn to accept that, the world would be a much better place.

Now you can argue that this is the essence of removing gender-roles, I'd argue that this method of thought transcends one topic of equality to reign over all of them.

Hate. Hate is the problem. "All you need is love".
__________________






Reply With Quote
  #7    
Old September 18th, 2013 (07:24 PM). Edited September 18th, 2013 by Aeroblast.
Aeroblast Aeroblast is offline
Platinum Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: My mom's basement. (not really)
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Serious
Posts: 3,941
Gender roles are driven by values and norms driven by society at large, therefore gender roles won't be eliminated. However it could change over the course of time.

Now, Postgenderism is something that I personally don't agree with at all. It sounds too extremist for my liking and I think going extreme with pretty much anything is no good.
Reply With Quote
  #8    
Old September 18th, 2013 (07:41 PM).
Corvus of the Black Night's Avatar
Corvus of the Black Night Corvus of the Black Night is offline
Wild Duck Pokémon
Gold Tier
CS
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: With the Birds
Age: 22
Gender: Other
Nature: Impish
Posts: 3,429
Gender Roles actually are shown in the earliest developed cultures (hunter/gather cultures) HOWEVER in these cultures both genders are viewed as equals, so it's hard to argue that it's not "natural" but it is certainly societal to view one as over the other.

It has been shown scientifically that females have, on average, different skills inherently than males (such as spacial and language skills). However, since the range of these skills is highly individualistic, and we are approaching an individualistic society, we should focus more on an individual's skill than necessarily the average of their gender. This way their abilities are more focused.
Reply With Quote
  #9    
Old September 18th, 2013 (07:47 PM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
Crystal Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 4,715
Let's not forget that gender roles, differences, and identity can vary depending on the culture one is discussing. For example, you'd imagine that China has a very traditional culture that tends to look down on feminism when compared to the West, but it may surprise you to find out that half of the world's self-made women billionaires are Chinese! Yes, there are gender-related abortions and women are under pressure to marry and all, but there's always been an undercurrent and respect for powerful women in Chinese culture.

/unabashed nationalism

Now where was I going with that? XD Hmm, I think I wanted to say something about how the inequality between the sexes can occur in different ways in different cultures - that in some ways it can be greater and in other ways it can be less.

I just thought of another question:

Is moving past gender (postgender) a necessary step for human progression? Is it inevitable? - I know some of you have reservations, but surely it's more than a black/white, yes/no answer?

Also, to state this differently:

Quote:
Is it even possible to have a worldview devoid of gender when there is so much focus in our discourse? Is the prominent focus on gender a necessary evil towards realizing a genderless world?
If we have resolved for tolerance and that we should push towards an increasing postgender world - freedom from strict roles, differences and identity - would we work towards that by increasing or decreasing the attention to gender? Should we gradually allow gender references to fade away through time, or should we shine a brighter light upon it, increase our collective awareness in order to change it (this is similar to the debate between gradualism and revolution among socialists)?
__________________
#363 Spheal
Supporter Collab January 2015
mod of nothing
paired to Axeliira
Reply With Quote
  #10    
Old September 18th, 2013 (11:41 PM).
Crux's Avatar
Crux Crux is offline
Evermore
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: 青い世界
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 1,324
Send a message via Skype™ to Crux
Gender has affected the human race since the beginning. Men were hunters, women were foragers/gatherers. And it has literally changed how a female brain and male brain work. That's why women can generally see more shades of red, yellow, and orange then a man can. And why men are generally better at spatial matters.

Anatomically the male and female bodies are different. I'm not talking about the obvious things such as sexual orgins, but rather something even more blatant. Generally, the male human body is more built for muscle, whilst the female body is more built for agility, and is usually much more adroit.

Now, all this having been said, to propose to completely eliminate gender differences, or identities is incongruous. I'm not saying that men and women should be paid differently, nor that they should be given different jobs, or be pressured to act a certain way. But rather, that gender is not only a social matter.

Both men and women have certain strengths and weakness that accompany their perspective gender. It's not a rigid boundary, more wobbly if anything, really, but a basic truth regardless.


The ever-changing gender roles are a distress of the public at large, I pay very little stock to them. If someone feels the need to adhere to them then it's a faux pas of their individuality, and hardly my problem.


Now then, I'm rather tired right now, so if I made any blunders of my own when typing that out feel free to give me a right good telling off. It might eventually make me stop posting in Discussion threads after midnight. . .
__________________





{Never and Forever}

Tees | Coming Soon | Coming Soon
Reply With Quote
  #11    
Old September 19th, 2013 (10:58 AM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper Esper is offline
CS
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 7,621
Physical differences, on average, exist, but what of it? Black people have on average more melanin in their skin than white people. East Asian people are generally shorter than Northern Europeans. So? I'm not proposing ignoring differences, but constantly reminding people that they are there is... problematic. Not because these are observable facts, but because people always seem to have a need to bring them up. I wonder why.

Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
If we have resolved for tolerance and that we should push towards an increasing postgender world - freedom from strict roles, differences and identity - would we work towards that by increasing or decreasing the attention to gender? Should we gradually allow gender references to fade away through time, or should we shine a brighter light upon it, increase our collective awareness in order to change it (this is similar to the debate between gradualism and revolution among socialists)?
Shine the light. Does anyone think that we would have the relative levels of equality we do today if people in the past didn't keep bringing up gender and equality? It's a mindset kind of thing. There were people back then who thought things were fine as they were. I didn't occur to them that there was a problem with gender roles, if they even thought about them in those terms. Even today you get people saying that everyone is equal, feminism accomplished its goals, etc. when there is still a lot of inequality. Not talking about it is, in my view, accepting things as they are and I don't want to accept things as they are because they can be better.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #12    
Old September 19th, 2013 (04:07 PM).
OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire's Avatar
OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire is offline
10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Coast
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
Posts: 14,978
Quote originally posted by PEDRO12:
I've quit on trying to define all the shapes and forms of equality. For me, I believe in one thing: freedom. I believe that instead of saying we should abolish gender-roles, we should be focusing on acceptance. What I mean is that while many of us dislike gender-roles and want them gone, I don't think that's possible. What is possible, however, is to advertise acceptance, in a sense. We should respect peoples' freedoms and simply accept whatever they want to do.

Whether a certain person wants to abide by the roles society has determined for them or whether they want to take on a whole new life and a whole new set of responsibilities should be their own choice. And whichever choice they make, if people would just learn to accept that, the world would be a much better place.

Now you can argue that this is the essence of removing gender-roles, I'd argue that this method of thought transcends one topic of equality to reign over all of them.

Hate. Hate is the problem. "All you need is love".
i'm of the same option. If we start turning on those who actually follow traditinal roles wouldn't that end up making us the oppresors? We need to accept and love everyone for their differences, be it a traditional role or not.
__________________
Team Treecko
Reply With Quote
  #13    
Old September 19th, 2013 (04:11 PM).
The Dark Avenger's Avatar
The Dark Avenger The Dark Avenger is offline
Vengeance is Vine
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The States
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Posts: 1,830
Send a message via Skype™ to The Dark Avenger
Gender fairness, as hestistant I am to use 'fairness' may better address issues of inequality. Inequality can be good. For instance, men and women in the work place should have certain differences in how their leave of absence policies go. If women and men were under similar policies without factoring maternity leave, which would deviate from men's leave of absence policies, one might make a concession on equality. However, looking at this example from another perspective, employer's forced to implement 'fair' leave of absence policies, may be discouraged to hire a woman knowing that they may have to pay for her leave of absence and for an interim worker, along with the training and possible lack of expertise in comparison to this woman. Thus, women who do not choose to have children or already have had children might be looked over if she could be a liability to the business. Thus, equal policies would allow for more women to work, in this instance, despite not being viewed as 'fair'. So, there is no clear-cut answer as to what is no good or bad in relation to what is equal or fair.

I am not taking a stance either way, just giving everyone a bit more to think about it when they analyze gender roles and the advocating broad policies, when in application, these generalities may have unintended consequences. Perhaps certain issues should be addressed in terms of equality while other should be methodical and pragmatic, establishing inequality policies. It is highly dependent upon context.
__________________

Artwork by Fairy+
Reply With Quote
  #14    
Old September 19th, 2013 (07:03 PM).
Mia Mew's Avatar
Mia Mew Mia Mew is offline
✧・゚: *✧・゚:* \(◕ω◕✿)/ *:・゚✧*:・゚
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Age: 18
Gender: Female
Nature: Gentle
Posts: 31
I don't believe we should get rid of the labels of male and female altogether (some people do argue this, and I can't say I understand) but I do think we should get rid of gender roles.

In my eyes, there's very little benefit in having them, if any, especially since people tend to get so much crap for not abiding by them (like, I was once mistaken for a feminine guy and I was called a bunch of names and almost beat up for it). It makes me really sad... and it's kind of personal to me for the reason I explained and for all of my friends who are treated poorly because they do not conform to gender roles.

I also believe it's next to impossible to still have gender roles without prejudice against people who do not follow them, which makes me even more inclined to say we should get rid of them.
__________________
I would make them some super cool and bad ass signature, but I have no idea what to put. Oops!
Reply With Quote
  #15    
Old September 20th, 2013 (05:53 PM). Edited September 20th, 2013 by zakisrage.
zakisrage's Avatar
zakisrage zakisrage is offline
In the trunk on Highway 10
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Posts: 346
I think it's a great idea to do away with gender roles. Women can work in tough jobs and serve in the army just as good as men, while men can cook and care for kids just as good as women. I don't care if people in my culture object to it. (Arabs such as myself who ascribe to more modern ideas about gender get a lot of flak from traditionalists.) But I think that physically, we need different genders. I can't imagine not having a gender identity. I kind of like being a boy - I can't imagine being an "it" or a "hir". Besides, the male and female bodies really do differ - a man is NEVER going to know what it's like to have a menstrual cycle, and most women will probably not know what it's like to have facial hair. That's why we should have genders, but gender roles are something that we don't need.
__________________
Helga: Look Phoebe, you gotta snap out of this. I mean, criminy, it's not like it's the first time you ever farted. Heck, when you sleep over you do it all the time. You rip 'em all night long, they stink to high heaven. It's all I can do to keep from passing out.
Phoebe: Just get out.
- Hey Arnold
Reply With Quote
  #16    
Old September 21st, 2013 (01:09 PM).
The Cutest Sylveon In The World's Avatar
The Cutest Sylveon In The World The Cutest Sylveon In The World is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Age: 20
Gender: Female
Nature: Quirky
Posts: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to The Cutest Sylveon In The World
I don't exactly have the highest hope we'll live in a society free of gender roles anytime soon, but I'd personally love to see it. Gender roles have absolutely no benefit and the vast majority of them aren't even based in anything accurate. I've heard they are a few differences between the "male brain" and the "female brain" (although there will always be exceptions) but I still don't see why it's necessary to keep gender roles.
__________________
(insert creative and interesting signature here)
Reply With Quote
  #17    
Old September 21st, 2013 (02:33 PM).
François's Avatar
François François is offline
#FutureHoennRemakesMod
Gold Tier
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ireland
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Nature: Serious
Posts: 337
I don't like gender roles very much, or rather I don't like the enforcing of those roles. I think the issue of equality in terms of workplace and so on is quite obvious, but gender roles are a bigger thing.

I really couldn't begin to suggest a way to stop society expecting all its subgroups to act in a certain way, outside of particularly oppressive laws based around people expecting things of certain genders. I'm sure Robin Thicke would end up in jail under those sort of laws, though.

I don't know, I guess what would be needed would be a way to encourage individuality in society as a whole. I think the trajectory of change should go something like:

encourage people to be individual / not care about societal views > people see others acting differently > expectations fall apart

But of course even that's really rather idyllic. Presently I think it's really up to individuals to do whatever they want - if they're too worried about people not approving of them then that's their problem.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #18    
Old September 21st, 2013 (07:26 PM). Edited September 21st, 2013 by Kanzler.
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
Crystal Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 4,715
Quote originally posted by Scarf:
Shine the light. Does anyone think that we would have the relative levels of equality we do today if people in the past didn't keep bringing up gender and equality? It's a mindset kind of thing. There were people back then who thought things were fine as they were. I didn't occur to them that there was a problem with gender roles, if they even thought about them in those terms. Even today you get people saying that everyone is equal, feminism accomplished its goals, etc. when there is still a lot of inequality. Not talking about it is, in my view, accepting things as they are and I don't want to accept things as they are because they can be better.
What if I said that shining a greater light would cause animosity and reaction? A recent development are men's rights groups, which look at the world in the terms of gender differences and see that men are also a disadvantaged group. Some of these groups perceive that feminism and the elevation of women's social standing play no small role in causing the disadvantage of men. Some women's groups don't take the agenda of men's rights seriously. Both of these groups shine light on the perceived inequality between men and women, but to me it seems like the conflict only deepens. I know there is an argument of some vs. all and as long as not all of these groups are antagonizing it's okay etc. but I find that to be an intellectual dead end. How do we contextualize this conflict? Does it serve or harm the goal of equality between the sexes? Or what if this is simply a "epiphenomenon", a superficial reaction to what is truly the inevitable force of gender equality?

Now, is it true that gender equality cannot be improved without putting extra attention on it? I think one can reasonably argue that cultural phenomenon can self-perpetuate once they enter our collective consciousness - so perhaps the ball of gender equality can keep rolling without anybody pushing it. This begs the question: has gender equality (or the elements that are important to you or enough of it) entered our collective consciousness enough for equality to proceed without (or with lesser) activism? I would argue for the most part yes - regardless of what a conservative religious segment of the population would like for us to think.

(I am probably appropriating the term epiphenomenon from some esoteric discipline but all I mean is that it's literally an epi phenomenon, something that is occurring "on top" and caused by/reacting to a more significant force.)

Edit: a good analogy would be comparing it to a symptom vs a disease.
__________________
#363 Spheal
Supporter Collab January 2015
mod of nothing
paired to Axeliira
Reply With Quote
  #19    
Old September 21st, 2013 (08:17 PM).
CoffeeDrink's Avatar
CoffeeDrink CoffeeDrink is offline
GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Lootin' Your Poké's
Gender: Male
Nature: Bold
Posts: 1,111
There are certain things, koff~

I think movies should still have the tough guys. Without them, we'd all be watching little girly men pee their pants when the bad guys show up. Arnold frowns upon this. Also, manly men in video games are far and few between now a days. I'm talking about leads like Duke Nukem and Rex Colt. Final Fantasy dealt a huge blow to machismo by making pretty boys and not men. It's okay to have pretty boys, but not edge out all the chiseled features of warriors so you begin acting like Prof. Oak: "Are you a boy or a girl?"

Other than films (not all women are helpless in films by far) and videogames, I think gender roles should be stopped eventually. All guys have to sign the draft, why not women? There is male and female everything these days, so it's not to hard to imagine. Females will still remain as the child bears, of course. Not much is going to change that, koffi~
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20    
Old October 2nd, 2013 (07:44 AM).
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
Crystal Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 4,715
What if we go further than gender roles. What if the technology develops to a point where either a) both men and women can carry a pregnancy or b) reproduction exists without a woman carrying a pregnancy?

Is it that relationship between mother and child that defines to greatest difference between men and women?
__________________
#363 Spheal
Supporter Collab January 2015
mod of nothing
paired to Axeliira
Reply With Quote
  #21    
Old October 2nd, 2013 (01:46 PM).
Flushed's Avatar
Flushed Flushed is online now
Tomato Soup
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Careful
Posts: 1,975
I think a lot of people would take issue with that/it conflicts with a lot of beliefs.

I don't think the mother-child relationship is the defining difference between man and woman. Albeit, giving birth releases the chemical Oxytocin, and that the mother-to-child relationship may be different than that of a man, ultimately a child will have a different relationship with (both) their parent(s) regardless, be it a man giving birth, a woman giving birth, a gay couple, etc. So I have no problem with men giving birth. The bond between the birther(no clue what the word is haha) and the child is not meant to amount to something that is inherently different from the other parent, it's just natural. So whether man or woman does it should not really matter. I do believe there are men that would like to give birth. And this would just be another instance of crossing gender lines, which I believe should be tolerated more, not something that's eliminated all together.

As for elimination of pregnancy, that brings me back to Huxley's Brave New World. Although in this instance I don't think cloning or artificiality is the mechanism, but it still eliminates something that is a very defining role for women. Obviously I just established myself as a proponent of men giving birth, but the role exists as predominantly female, and I believe some distinction should be kept intact. The only reason I don't think male birthing would eliminate that distinction is that because in this point in time, I would assume a majority of the men would not jump at the opportunity to give birth.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #22    
Old October 2nd, 2013 (02:43 PM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper Esper is offline
CS
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 7,621
Quote originally posted by BlahISuck:
What if I said that shining a greater light would cause animosity and reaction? A recent development are men's rights groups, which look at the world in the terms of gender differences and see that men are also a disadvantaged group. Some of these groups perceive that feminism and the elevation of women's social standing play no small role in causing the disadvantage of men. Some women's groups don't take the agenda of men's rights seriously. Both of these groups shine light on the perceived inequality between men and women, but to me it seems like the conflict only deepens. I know there is an argument of some vs. all and as long as not all of these groups are antagonizing it's okay etc. but I find that to be an intellectual dead end. How do we contextualize this conflict? Does it serve or harm the goal of equality between the sexes? Or what if this is simply a "epiphenomenon", a superficial reaction to what is truly the inevitable force of gender equality?

Now, is it true that gender equality cannot be improved without putting extra attention on it? I think one can reasonably argue that cultural phenomenon can self-perpetuate once they enter our collective consciousness - so perhaps the ball of gender equality can keep rolling without anybody pushing it. This begs the question: has gender equality (or the elements that are important to you or enough of it) entered our collective consciousness enough for equality to proceed without (or with lesser) activism? I would argue for the most part yes - regardless of what a conservative religious segment of the population would like for us to think.

(I am probably appropriating the term epiphenomenon from some esoteric discipline but all I mean is that it's literally an epi phenomenon, something that is occurring "on top" and caused by/reacting to a more significant force.)

Edit: a good analogy would be comparing it to a symptom vs a disease.
I look at men's rights groups and I see about 1% genuine reason for them to exist and mostly just a lot of men scared about loosing them dominant place in society. But, sure, they are a problem that perhaps wouldn't exist without the specific thing of the feminist movement, but what they represent, their ideas and opinions, would be here either way. They may be appropriating the language of feminism to the disadvantage of actual equality, but I think that's not as bad having not shone a light on the problems in the first place. At least things as they are mean there's a language that we can use to talk about the problems in the world related to inequality. Men's rights groups may be muddying the waters and causing confusion, but I think the benefit of women having the words to describe their experiences and the knowledge that there are people who sympathize with them, who have had similar experiences, outweighs the costs.

Quote originally posted by Flush'd:
I think a lot of people would take issue with that/it conflicts with a lot of beliefs.

I don't think the mother-child relationship is the defining difference between man and woman. Albeit, giving birth releases the chemical Oxytocin, and that the mother-to-child relationship may be different than that of a man, ultimately a child will have a different relationship with (both) their parent(s) regardless, be it a man giving birth, a woman giving birth, a gay couple, etc. So I have no problem with men giving birth. The bond between the birther(no clue what the word is haha) and the child is not meant to amount to something that is inherently different from the other parent, it's just natural. So whether man or woman does it should not really matter. I do believe there are men that would like to give birth. And this would just be another instance of crossing gender lines, which I believe should be tolerated more, not something that's eliminated all together.

As for elimination of pregnancy, that brings me back to Huxley's Brave New World. Although in this instance I don't think cloning or artificiality is the mechanism, but it still eliminates something that is a very defining role for women. Obviously I just established myself as a proponent of men giving birth, but the role exists as predominantly female, and I believe some distinction should be kept intact. The only reason I don't think male birthing would eliminate that distinction is that because in this point in time, I would assume a majority of the men would not jump at the opportunity to give birth.
I just need to point out that there are women who never have children, by choice or otherwise. It might be better to say that the possibility to give birth to children (or maybe more accurately, having biology provide them with bodies and hormones that are adapted to giving birth) is a defining aspect for women. Sure, for some women having kids is their personal reason for living, but we shouldn't extend that to all women. Some aren't going to be able to because of disease, injury, circumstances of their own personal development, and some will opt not to for whatever reasons. I'm just being nitpicky because I don't like even getting close to the idea that women = having kids, like that's the "purpose" of being a woman. Part of the experience is having people around you assume this, and to, most likely, be confronted with the possibility at some point, but I'm not going to say it's a "role" necessarily.

That said, there's something to the idea of men giving birth as another instance of men appropriating something from women, of intruding into women's space. But I've already gabbed enough so I won't get too much into that idea.
__________________

deviantart blog pair
Reply With Quote
  #23    
Old October 2nd, 2013 (06:55 PM).
Flushed's Avatar
Flushed Flushed is online now
Tomato Soup
Silver Tier
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Careful
Posts: 1,975
Quote originally posted by Scarf:
I just need to point out that there are women who never have children, by choice or otherwise. It might be better to say that the possibility to give birth to children (or maybe more accurately, having biology provide them with bodies and hormones that are adapted to giving birth) is a defining aspect for women. Sure, for some women having kids is their personal reason for living, but we shouldn't extend that to all women. Some aren't going to be able to because of disease, injury, circumstances of their own personal development, and some will opt not to for whatever reasons. I'm just being nitpicky because I don't like even getting close to the idea that women = having kids, like that's the "purpose" of being a woman. Part of the experience is having people around you assume this, and to, most likely, be confronted with the possibility at some point, but I'm not going to say it's a "role" necessarily.

That said, there's something to the idea of men giving birth as another instance of men appropriating something from women, of intruding into women's space. But I've already gabbed enough so I won't get too much into that idea.
Yeah definitely. For some reason I seemed to have dismissed that idea knowing full well that it was in play. The ability of childbirth is characteristically female, yet by not engaging in such I'm not saying a woman is an uncharacteristic female. I just meant to establish that a major distinction between man and woman lies in the ability of childbirth, which shouldn't be taken away, yet at the same time wouldn't be too affected by men giving birth.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24    
Old October 3rd, 2013 (07:58 AM).
Rezilia's Avatar
Rezilia Rezilia is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Gender: Female
Nature: Sassy
Posts: 322
Quote originally posted by PEDRO12:
I've quit on trying to define all the shapes and forms of equality. For me, I believe in one thing: freedom. I believe that instead of saying we should abolish gender-roles, we should be focusing on acceptance. What I mean is that while many of us dislike gender-roles and want them gone, I don't think that's possible. What is possible, however, is to advertise acceptance, in a sense. We should respect peoples' freedoms and simply accept whatever they want to do.

Whether a certain person wants to abide by the roles society has determined for them or whether they want to take on a whole new life and a whole new set of responsibilities should be their own choice. And whichever choice they make, if people would just learn to accept that, the world would be a much better place.

Now you can argue that this is the essence of removing gender-roles, I'd argue that this method of thought transcends one topic of equality to reign over all of them.

Hate. Hate is the problem. "All you need is love".

I totally agree with you there!

I'm an individualist myself. I won't say gender roles were completely bad (we have TRAPS now, don't we? :D) but as an individualist, I believe each and every person should seek to be WHO they are rather than WHAT they are - like Jack Johnson (fighter) did! :D

--

I fully support a post-gender world. However, neurology and biology have shown (so these are just based on the physical body but still) that men and women work very differently.

Men have more weak points. Women are able to CONTAIN more strength and thus use more agility. Men have greater endurance but all they can do is "stretch out" in response to physical training. Men are able to come to decisions faster but women think over their decisions more.

We have to remember that the world we live in today was created, in the most part, by men. Their rash decision-making may be seen as a weakness to some - but look how far we advanced in all areas (martial, intellectual, spiritual, etc) due to that quick thinking? I love different approaches to all things but certain things in society (like military strategy or political rule) can be handled better, naturally, by one gender than the other. This doesn't mean the roles should be exclusive or that ALL women and ALL men act in the way studies have shown. I just mean that we have to understand the basic natures of each gender if we are to truly merge into a postgender world.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #25    
Old October 7th, 2013 (02:01 PM). Edited October 7th, 2013 by Esper.
Kanzler's Avatar
Kanzler Kanzler is offline
naughty biscotti
Crystal Tier
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Age: 21
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Posts: 4,715
You know, all this talk of what is "woman" and what should stay as "women's" - women's space, women's experience - as well as fears of losing individuality, doesn't sound very postgender to me. Perhaps in living in a world where gender identity matters, we fear losing it.
__________________
#363 Spheal
Supporter Collab January 2015
mod of nothing
paired to Axeliira
Reply With Quote
Reply
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25

Forum Jump


All times are UTC -8. The time now is 07:00 PM.