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  #26    
Old October 18th, 2013 (05:08 PM).
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
Nobody's been making false equivalencies. In fact, nearly everybody on this thread has qualified whatever they said with the statement "women have it worse". This isn't a pissing contest about which sex is more victimized. To frame the question as such is counter to gender equality in general as well as what I interpreted to be the purpose of this thread, to have a space in which we discuss how sexism affects men. It's not difficult to make comparisons between men and women.

We don't need someone to tell us all the time that "women have it worse". We already do it every day. Part of the problem with recognizing the inequalities men face is people telling you it's not as serious. How about we actually have a discussion about what inequality faced by males is instead of judging without a discussion? Aren't feminists against comments like "it's not that serious" because it undermines the discussion that people are trying to make?

Nobody's been discounting sexual assaults either. The fact of the matter is that misquoted facts make understanding the problem worse for everybody. It causes unnecessary conflict and misleads people. I don't think anything more needs to be said about this. There seems to be paranoia that talking about the inequalities male face somehow undermines that of females, and so we must constantly remind ourselves just who "has it worse". It's unnecessary.

It difficult to attribute that to anything without taking a closer look. Women being raised as meek is not a good reason. Most rapes happen to somebody the victim knows, taking advantage of her - "a boyfriend" who doesn't give a ****. I don't think it's fair to frame the question in terms of a cleavage between men and women, because most men do give a ****.
I'll concede I've been preemptively defensive. Bad experiences with this topic.


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Originally Posted by CoffeeDrink View Post

See, koff~

This is how the Catholics get away with molesting little boys. Nobody cares about the boys. Children (male and female) are both equally susceptible to the nasties out in the world. And I didn't say women are angels. What I said was that some people like to place them on pedestals, which is not appropriate (paraphrase). The fact that people keep ignoring the fact that men can be victims as well and aren't 'that big a deal' creates the problem imposed in the original posted question. It's also feeding into the 'Men should be warrior' stereotypes which then creates the 'women should be chefs' stereotypes. Sure, women are typically the victims in most cases, but it does not diminish the fact that victims who are men have to scrape the floor to get help.

It also is not the fault of the rapists or the women that result in a low conviction rates for rape crimes. I laid out certain reasons and tactics that can be used in the court room. The justice system is not perfect, but I would dare say that there are more claims of rape then there should be. A man can't just start yelling 'rape' and have a women carted off in cuffs, you dig? In cases of home and domestic arguments, this buzz word can send a man to jail for a period of days while he waits for something that he didn't do, koffi~

Also, I remember a certain program "Just say no" that was placed in effect. Saying that every woman is raised to say yes is laughable.
The Catholics? You mean some Catholic priests, yes?

The justice system is pretty broken all around when it comes to prosecuting rape since a victim is often put on trial to try to make it seem like they couldn't have been raped since they supposedly had the chance to say no or stop it somehow. In this sense men who are victims have a problem convincing people they can even be a victim in the first place on top of the regular problems of getting the law to believe you. I think the statistics are 1 in 10 rape victims are men, but don't quote me on that.
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  #27    
Old October 22nd, 2013 (03:45 PM).
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Feminism is corrupt.
Fighting sexism from one side is like screwing for virginity.
Don't get me wrong, I've met some legitly nice people, who actually just wanted everybody to get equal treatment, but the percentile when compaired to the number of 'Feminists' who just want all women to be treated better is miniscule.

And, of course, the media is corrupt, so they just jump on one bandwagon and try to shoot down the rest. There's a good reason why I don't usually go to mainstream media as a news source.

Feminists, Rights Groups, and those of ilk are doing more damage then good to be honest. You can't reach a consensus by working on one side.
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  #28    
Old October 22nd, 2013 (06:35 PM).
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Things like sexism are pendulums. When one group is wronged in some form or fashion, public opinion will shift, eventually to the other extreme if left unimpeded. Women were wronged earlier in history and the pendulum has swung back. Sexism, racism, or any other thing that is based off of "the person external" is inherently wrong. Sorry if this sounds preachy.
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  #29    
Old October 23rd, 2013 (08:59 AM).
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Originally Posted by Rococo View Post
Feminism is corrupt.
Fighting sexism from one side is like screwing for virginity.
Don't get me wrong, I've met some legitly nice people, who actually just wanted everybody to get equal treatment, but the percentile when compaired to the number of 'Feminists' who just want all women to be treated better is miniscule.
Have you got some source to back this up? I've met a lot of people who identify as feminists and that is not my experience at all. Perhaps you're referring to radical feminists, although even among those groups I'm sure "miniscule" is still a bit of a stretch.
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  #30    
Old October 23rd, 2013 (09:29 AM).
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My only question is what is wrong with people being themselves? Why does society have to shut either one down?

Also women aren't a minority society, lol they occupy half of the people. Regardless, people should be allowed to be who they are. jeez this is the issue with gays and all that... I wish people weren't so freaking shallow and close minded.

I work with kids and it just annoys the **** out of me whenever I see "Oh pink is a girls colour you can't like that"... says who? **** society, the concept of gender roles is so asinine in this day and age that there's no reason for either gender to be oppressed.
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  #31    
Old October 24th, 2013 (08:19 AM).
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Honestly, women do have it worse overall imo. However the issues men face get far less attention a lot of the time. I would recommend you all read this.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ped-than-women
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  #32    
Old November 1st, 2013 (03:58 PM). Edited November 1st, 2013 by Toutebelle.
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This is how the Catholics get away with molesting little boys. Nobody cares about the boys.
I'm Catholic and I have NEVER molested any boys. Watch what you say.

Anyway, the country of Sweden encourages sexism against men - Sweden forbids gender-specific marketing to children (as if a little boy is so likely to ask for play make-up or something). Sweden gives favorable treatment to women in EVERYTHING. A man can be strip searched by a woman but a man cannot strip search a woman. Swedish women are given money just for giving birth, even if they prove themselves to be terrible mothers. And a gross percentage of Swedish children never get to see their own fathers. Seriously, Sweden, do you even care about your male citizens? Blame it on Sweden being controlled by feminists - it's surprising that the prime minister is a man. I guess Sweden is to feminism as Saudi Arabia is to misogyny - taking it too far.

Considering Sweden's a very blond country, it only fuels into the disgusting myth that blond men are effeminate by nature. (Yet Norway, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Russia are also very blond countries and they don't treat men like that. Actually, other Scandinavian countries do get a little carried away with feminism too, but at least Norway, Finland, and Denmark treat men better than Sweden does.)

Actually, Sweden isn't feminist. It's feminazi. Real feminists do not advocate treating men as second-class citizens. It's just that feminazis have hijacked the feminist movement the same way that Islamists have hijacked Islam.
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  #33    
Old November 8th, 2013 (08:19 PM).
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Full disclosure: I consider myself a men's rights advocate.

This is a very simple issue to me. Men face a lot of problems, probably the most severe of which is the misandry present in the US legal system today. There are people who deny men have any problems whatsoever: those people are wrong. There are people who outright attack MRAs and those who support their message: those people are being malicious and should be called out as such.

Unfortunately, the MRA movement is quite varied and the message is sometimes inconsistent (though to be fair, the same can be said about feminism). Some people get turned off to MRAs because of an argument one MRA made that they disagreed with without realizing that many MRAs have different (and sometimes conflicting) agendas. However, this does not give license to anyone to deny men's issues or, worse, outright attack those trying to call attention to them. That is unethical and should be called out as such by everyone, every time it happens.
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  #34    
Old November 9th, 2013 (07:37 PM). Edited November 9th, 2013 by zakisrage.
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Originally Posted by lollygag View Post
I'm Catholic and I have NEVER molested any boys. Watch what you say.

Anyway, the country of Sweden encourages sexism against men - Sweden forbids gender-specific marketing to children (as if a little boy is so likely to ask for play make-up or something). Sweden gives favorable treatment to women in EVERYTHING. A man can be strip searched by a woman but a man cannot strip search a woman. Swedish women are given money just for giving birth, even if they prove themselves to be terrible mothers. And a gross percentage of Swedish children never get to see their own fathers. Seriously, Sweden, do you even care about your male citizens? Blame it on Sweden being controlled by feminists - it's surprising that the prime minister is a man. I guess Sweden is to feminism as Saudi Arabia is to misogyny - taking it too far.

Considering Sweden's a very blond country, it only fuels into the disgusting myth that blond men are effeminate by nature. (Yet Norway, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Russia are also very blond countries and they don't treat men like that. Actually, other Scandinavian countries do get a little carried away with feminism too, but at least Norway, Finland, and Denmark treat men better than Sweden does.)

Actually, Sweden isn't feminist. It's feminazi. Real feminists do not advocate treating men as second-class citizens. It's just that feminazis have hijacked the feminist movement the same way that Islamists have hijacked Islam.
Yeah. Sweden really made me mad about the way they treat men. The problem is that Swedish feminists are VERY vocal. I've encountered a few Swedish female tourists and they get offended by everything courteous that a man can do. One of them was actually offended when a guy tried to hold a door for her! Isn't that ridiculous?

By the way, Sweden has the highest divorce rate in the world. Nearly three-fifths of all Swedish marriages end in divorce (and if you don't include immigrants, then the rate is even higher). That's higher than even the US.

Even worse, Sweden has the most liberal definition of rape. Swedish men can even be accused of rape by looking at a woman funny. It's this reason why Sweden has the highest instance of rape. It has nothing to do with Muslim immigrants. France has more Muslim immigrants than Sweden and there are fewer reported rapes there.

Feminism doesn't encourage this kind of attitude and in fact it only worsens gender relations.
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  #35    
Old November 10th, 2013 (03:59 AM).
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Yeah. Sweden really made me mad about the way they treat men. The problem is that Swedish feminists are VERY vocal. I've encountered a few Swedish female tourists and they get offended by everything courteous that a man can do. One of them was actually offended when a guy tried to hold a door for her! Isn't that ridiculous?
I can understand this. It is a bit patronizing, isn't it? Women are perfectly capable of opening their own doors; it takes less than five seconds and it's no problem. I get offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that. It's like, gee thanks for doing something that I could've done myself in two seconds. It doesn't really help the woman in a meaningful way.

It's called benevolent sexism, and it's still sexism even if it seems positive.
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  #36    
Old November 10th, 2013 (07:39 AM).
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I call it being nice. I open doors for guys all the time and they're never offended.
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  #37    
Old November 10th, 2013 (08:19 AM).
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It's true. I happen to hold doors open for men as well as women. I think it's rather preemptive for someone to assume that something's being done for them on the basis of sex - now that's prejudice and perpetuating the stereotype of opening doors as being some kind of sexist tradition.

Also, doing things for people is about service, not about oh you're a woman and you can't do it yourself. It's about the attitude, not about any material benefit really (because it's true, anybody /could/ do it themselves). I've have a friend of mine do all this in 'reverse', if anyone really wants to think about it that way. It's about showing someone you care that you actually do/treating them well if there's no real personal connection - i.e., service.
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  #38    
Old November 10th, 2013 (08:26 AM).
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I'm just used to holding doors for people. My parents tell me that it's common courtesy.

Then again, I'm glad I don't live in Sweden.
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  #39    
Old November 10th, 2013 (10:59 AM).
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I could go as far as to say '[getting] offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that' as an example of sexism against males - it's a judgement based on a pre-conceived notion that males are brainwashed into the traditions of patriachy instead of acting because they're thinking for themselves and they want to do it out of the bottom of their heart. It's dehumanizing because you're not looking at a man as an individual, only as the product of his environment and what society "told" him to do.
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  #40    
Old November 10th, 2013 (11:30 AM). Edited November 10th, 2013 by Magic Christmas Lights.
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I could go as far as to say '[getting] offended when guys pull out chairs for me and do other stuff like that' as an example of sexism against males - it's a judgement based on a pre-conceived notion that males are brainwashed into the traditions of patriachy instead of acting because they're thinking for themselves and they want to do it out of the bottom of their heart. It's dehumanizing because you're not looking at a man as an individual, only as the product of his environment and what society "told" him to do.
Holding chairs out isn't just polite behavior though, that really is can be something men do for women after years of conditioning that it's the "right" thing to do, and there are people that expect to get a pat on the head for it. Not in every situation, certainly not in the majority, but it does happen. You gave one very specific example that does not cover all experiences with door holding/the pulling out of the chair, etc. There are contexts where it really is about treating a woman delicately. Why is it a norm that the man pays for dinner on a date? It comes from this very subtle cultural belief that women are weak. I don't think most men would consciously endorse that, but that message is still there in our culture and influences behavior in a subtle, implicit way and it affects the shape that certain polite, expected manners take on. It's not about the individual man, there's nothing wrong with him and his heart is certainly in the right place. It's about the system, the underlying cultural values that implicitly affect us all.

I talked about benevolent sexism because holding doors open was being talked about in the context of chivalry (EDIT: after re-reading the post, maybe not), which is a form of benevolent sexism. The whole "he may or may not be doing it to be polite" was not part of that context. Yes, what you described is a form of sexism - going off stereotypes which are very likely to be wrong. Chivalry is also sexist. This illustrates what I'm trying to say a bit better.

I hate to turn this into another "sexism women face!!!!!" post in the thread about sexism against men, but I felt that commenting on benevolent sexism was worthwhile. It affects men negatively too, often putting too much pressure on them to provide. On the topic of men facing sexism, I think it's pretty unfair that men are expected (less so in the current generation, but I still see it) to provide the entertainment on dates, pick the venue, and pay for it. That's an awful lot of pressure and stress. Speaking of men being put into a providing role, I recently read a study whose conclusion was that men are judged negatively for becoming stay at home dads, even if the mother earns more than enough to provide for the family. That's not cool.

EDIT: Sorry I edited like a million times, I just kept thinking of better ways to word my thoughts ahaha.
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  #41    
Old November 10th, 2013 (11:53 AM).
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On the other hand, I don't think it's fair for one to select which context matters and which doesn't. The fact of the matter is that men /will/ do it to be polite and I think it's arbitrary to split the phenomenon apart and say: in this instance men are being polite and it's okay, but in this instance it's an example of chivalry.

Anyways, chivalry isn't meaningfully sexist - it's just an honour code reflecting on how a knight should treat men, women, and god. I mean, knights were a warrior class, and since warriors tended to be men, it makes sense in the olden days a knight's duties through chivalry will have differences in how men and women are treated. Also because women tend to be the subject of a knight's desire, but that has to do more with sexual identity than sexism. But at the end of the day, chivalry is about service. The details as they've been practiced in history may have treated men and women differently, but the general idea is service and honour.

I guess chivalry has been appropriated in modern times to describe how societies protect women,and treat men as relatively expendable. It is sexist, and I don't think women are on the short end of the stick.
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  #42    
Old November 10th, 2013 (07:58 PM).
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Oh, so, since I have Chivalry, that means I'm a sexist male? What? No.

I get so pissed whenever people equate Chivalry with sexism. Learn your dang history.

In old times, Chivalry included Courting - but the Courting system was never incorporated in other aspects of Chivalry. Courting was a specific method of getting a romantic interest to fall for you, but the knights didn't treat women nicely just to get in their pants. They treated them that way because they were REQUIRED to by their protect-those-that-cannot-protect-themselves and uphold-the-honour-of-others mentality.

Knights didn't just hold open doors and do other gestures for women - they did it for men, children, and the elderly. They even did it for other knights, just because it was the NICE thing to do.

If you are in a better position that the person you're courting, then you should pay for things. Period. In the past, this used to be men paying for women, because men had all the jobs. That made SENSE. It wasn't sexist - it was proper. Now that isn't the case. And even though men paying is still a habit, it isn't a habit based in sexism.

Don't say Chivalry is sexist when that is a blatant lie.
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  #43    
Old November 11th, 2013 (02:55 AM).
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...
Certainly things for women have gotten better in the last few decades, but I don't see why that makes what happens today "blown out of proportion." I'm kind of not sure what you're saying specifically about hormones, but I'm hoping it's not one of those "boys will be boys" things.
....
Cropped for clarity.

No, not the "boys will be boys" but humans will be animals, we are animals, and our instinctual behavior is to propagate, in other words, breed. While there are some people, like me, who are simply not interested in mating of any sort, we cannot expect everyone to simply ignore the instinct just because of that. Courting methods have changed, and even today many cultures have very different courting methods that are considered effective. It's actually how natural selection works, some people will have bad courting methods, and they will not be capable of attracting a mate because of it, and thus their courting methods will have a smaller chance of recurring in the next generation. Typically, those with bad courting methods are also less intelligent and have worse social capabilities, thus we really don't want their genes in the pool anyway, do we?

The problem is not that sexism happens, the problem is when sexism interferes with a person's life, that's when it should be addressed beyond mockery and shunning. Such as a boss who only promotes a particular gender in the work place, that is sexism that should be addressed. But the cat calling construction workers are inconsequential to the general scheme of things, and likely should just be ignored and allowed to fade away with each new generation. That is the difference, when someone makes an off-color joke and suddenly there's an inquisition calling for their head, that's blowing it out of proportion.
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  #44    
Old November 11th, 2013 (10:32 PM).
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I think the reason why sexism exists for both genders is because society encourages genderism, which emphasizes gender binary viewpoint. I personally don't support genderism, because I think gender roles should be looked at from a gradient perspective, tolerating that one person could have some degree of masculinity and feminity instead of "this or that" thinking which easily leads to unnecessary stereotyping, bias, and discrimination. Personally I'd even go as far as to argue that one of the main reasons for LGBT discrimination comes from genderism, but I digress. Moving on.

So what causes society to develop sexism? As much as it depends on each person's upbringing, I personally think big part of the blame has to go to the media. I'll look at this only from masculine point of view because this thread pertains mainly to sexism against males; Many successful men in media are shown to be strong, powerful, indepent, and outright "not feminine." Because of this, many people in society have slowly been brainwashed into thinking as such. Same goes for females with different circumstances but again, I digress. I think such distinction that's made between males and females encourage a gender binary viewpoint, which as I said earlier is just a poor belief to embody in my opinion.

I think masculinity that is forced upon males is less stressed upon than expectations of femininity revolving around females, because from a face value, being strong, powerful, and independent are good characteristics to have for any person. What people don't realize, though, is that these expectations come at a cost, because males who don't meet the lofty expectations of masculinity often develop sense of social insecurity (and that's just one of many problems, I could list more consequences but right now I'm too tired). All I've said I think is just some of the flaws that I think today's society has in dealing with sex and gender roles.
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  #45    
Old November 11th, 2013 (10:51 PM).
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I think masculinity that is forced upon males is less stressed upon than expectations of femininity revolving around females, because from a face value, being strong, powerful, and independent are good characteristics to have for any person. What people don't realize, though, is that these expectations come at a cost, because males who don't meet the lofty expectations of masculinity often develop sense of social insecurity (and that's just one of many problems, I could list more consequences but right now I'm too tired). All I've said I think is just some of the flaws that I think today's society has in dealing with sex and gender roles.
As it relates to the thread topic, especially this. Masculinity is as forced upon males as femininity is forced upon females. Men are raised to be a certain way, and if they don't meet expectations, they aren't treated as respectfully as their peers. There are expectations to be the provider, to be dominant, and to sacrifice if needs be. The point isn't whether or not these characteristics are good or bad, but that they're expectations that create pressure. You could be the nicest person in the world but you wouldn't feel good about it if it's because of a feeling that's biting on your ass all the time.
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  #46    
Old November 11th, 2013 (11:25 PM).
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As it relates to the thread topic, especially this. Masculinity is as forced upon males as femininity is forced upon females. Men are raised to be a certain way, and if they don't meet expectations, they aren't treated as respectfully as their peers. There are expectations to be the provider, to be dominant, and to sacrifice if needs be. The point isn't whether or not these characteristics are good or bad, but that they're expectations that create pressure. You could be the nicest person in the world but you wouldn't feel good about it if it's because of a feeling that's biting on your ass all the time.
Seattle made a good point that connects to your point here, the most common problems in society are caused by social standards, and those social standards need to be discarded. Children do not have the notions you mention in this post inherently, they are taught that by their idiotic parents who are often too primitive to consider the damage their "standards" have caused.
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  #47    
Old November 12th, 2013 (05:05 AM).
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Oh, so, since I have Chivalry, that means I'm a sexist male? What? No.
actually, yes. That means you are implicitly sexist. Read up on benevolent sexism.
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  #48    
Old November 12th, 2013 (09:20 AM).
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Nature: Sassy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Christmas Lights View Post
actually, yes. That means you are implicitly sexist. Read up on benevolent sexism.
Read up on Chivalry and get back to me.

Also -

Gender: Female

As for everything else, I already explained it in my posts. Chivalry isn't benevolent sexism. It's a common courtesy system for EVERYONE - not just towards females.
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  #49    
Old November 12th, 2013 (10:33 AM).
LurifLUX's Avatar
LurifLUX
Fluxilurr
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Central Sweden
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Timid
Quote:
Originally Posted by lollygag View Post
I'm Catholic and I have NEVER molested any boys. Watch what you say.

Anyway, the country of Sweden encourages sexism against men - Sweden forbids gender-specific marketing to children (as if a little boy is so likely to ask for play make-up or something). Sweden gives favorable treatment to women in EVERYTHING. A man can be strip searched by a woman but a man cannot strip search a woman. Swedish women are given money just for giving birth, even if they prove themselves to be terrible mothers. And a gross percentage of Swedish children never get to see their own fathers. Seriously, Sweden, do you even care about your male citizens? Blame it on Sweden being controlled by feminists - it's surprising that the prime minister is a man. I guess Sweden is to feminism as Saudi Arabia is to misogyny - taking it too far.

Considering Sweden's a very blond country, it only fuels into the disgusting myth that blond men are effeminate by nature. (Yet Norway, Finland, Germany, Poland, and Russia are also very blond countries and they don't treat men like that. Actually, other Scandinavian countries do get a little carried away with feminism too, but at least Norway, Finland, and Denmark treat men better than Sweden does.)

Actually, Sweden isn't feminist. It's feminazi. Real feminists do not advocate treating men as second-class citizens. It's just that feminazis have hijacked the feminist movement the same way that Islamists have hijacked Islam.
Woaw, woaw, woaw, WOAW.
You talk about sexism and then you bash an entire country? Talk about double standards here. I can confirm something and that is your view of Sweden is so scewed and wrong I can't even begin to correct it. You've got to be trolling or something.
Is this the "raging racism is okay, but smidgeons of sexism isn't" thread?
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  #50    
Old November 12th, 2013 (11:06 AM).
Esper's Avatar
Esper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenKoder View Post
Seattle made a good point that connects to your point here, the most common problems in society are caused by social standards, and those social standards need to be discarded. Children do not have the notions you mention in this post inherently, they are taught that by their idiotic parents who are often too primitive to consider the damage their "standards" have caused.
I also think that parents have a pretty large part in what kind of standards get passed down to their kids. Blame the media all you want, I do it, but they aren't the only culprit. But parenthood is so much of a sacred cow that we can't often interfere with what parents do with their kids.
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