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  #51    
Old January 19th, 2014 (07:53 AM).
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Quote originally posted by FL:
Yes, GD need to be more realistic. The newcomers need to stop trying to do a game with all regions or MMO as the first game. We have more complete games this way. If the people know the two sides of the coin, we would have less disillusion and resigns.

Your post sounds too personal. I only gave my opinion and never says that the Maruno project is "impossible".

Let's discuss this subject in other thread or by direct messages, this became too off-topic.
Off topic? The topic is a new kit/engine, I honestly feel like we are right where the topic should be. Discussing ideas and what is and is not feasible.

Someone making their first post about a game having all regions and all of these fantastic features, is not equivalent to Maruno and I making it somewhat known that we are interested in a new engine.

I get that you are trying to take a realistic approach and look at what is feasible and what is not, but you are being incredibly subjective in doing so. You act is if this discussion is one man taking on the world, and it is not. To top it off, you carry with you this mentality of "It has to be done right now". There is a difference between building something from scratch, and building something from something else. I am not saying that you cannot be critical, but at every single juncture?

I am sorry, I do not want to carry this chat over private messages, talking to you has proven to be poison.
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  #52    
Old January 19th, 2014 (10:13 AM).
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An ideal starter kit would have all of the same functionality as Pokemon Essentials but be open-source, cross-platform, user-friendly, easy to mod, and not rely on paid software (like RMXP). Online functionality would also be a huge plus, especially if it allows players to trade and battle each other.

Also, ideally, being able to port pre-existing Essentials games over to the new system would allow for older game developers to make the switch easily and not have to wipe everything and reconstruct their projects from the ground up.

This is all purely theoretical, though, right? It's not something we'll be seeing for at least a year or two...
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Old January 20th, 2014 (09:36 AM).
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What knowledge/experience/whatever would you be looking for when assembling a team to make something like this?
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  #54    
Old January 20th, 2014 (12:27 PM).
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Question: are you guys taking into account the potential cost for someone to develop on this new engine? For example, Essentials is free, but RMXP is $30. That's a reasonable amount of money. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but Unity Pro costs $1500 or a $75 monthly fee. It's completely unreasonable to expect any developer in these forums to put down that much on a fan game, so every feature you rely on in the case of Unity would have to be available in the free version.

Food for thought.
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  #55    
Old January 20th, 2014 (03:43 PM).
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Style - I'm fine with 2D, although I know lots of people are fond of isometric or 3D graphics. 3D does seem like it could be harder to work with, though.

Gameplay - I think it'd be neat if the system were flexible enough to cover most of the play styles from the Pokemon games in some way. Like, maybe it wouldn't have to be capable of directly making a clone of Mystery Dungeon/Ranger/Stadium/Snap, but it would be awesome if some of the most important elements of those games were somehow incorporated into the main style of play somehow and capture the spirit of some of the other games. Like, rather than a straight-up clone of Snap, I'd like to be able to play a game where I could wander around and take photos rather than have to get railroaded the whole way through.
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  #56    
Old January 21st, 2014 (04:17 PM). Edited January 21st, 2014 by FL.
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Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
Someone making their first post about a game having all regions and all of these fantastic features, is not equivalent to Maruno and I making it somewhat known that we are interested in a new engine.
I was refering about the need of demotivation at PC

Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
I get that you are trying to take a realistic approach and look at what is feasible and what is not, but you are being incredibly subjective in doing so. You act is if this discussion is one man taking on the world, and it is not. To top it off, you carry with you this mentality of "It has to be done right now". There is a difference between building something from scratch, and building something from something else. I am not saying that you cannot be critical, but at every single juncture?
Adapt more than 50.000 lines of code of a different language is a huge task.


So, please, prove me that I am wrong. Make an awesome kit and bring a new light for this section, just like Poccil did more than 6 years ago.
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  #57    
Old January 21st, 2014 (06:55 PM).
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There is a difference between keeping people grounded, and demotivating people sir. You are motivational.

You have not touched on any points in a manner that is even remotely supportive of theory crafting, not even provided jack in the way of being constructive. Instead, you opt to a "Sitck ot Essentials because it is not broken" approach.

OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with Essentials at this point, as both myself and Maruno have been discussing something else.

I did not say it would be easy, anywhere in this entire thread, nor did I claim Rome was built in a day. You are sounding straight up pretentious with your last remarks, but I will disregard that.

Don't expect a response from me again, you are clearly the current problem that this idea has, not the number of lines that need to be re-coded for a new engine.
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Old January 22nd, 2014 (09:51 AM).
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I honestly think that FL is right, starting a new engine and even just the idea of doing that would just kill off essentials.
Who would start a project that is already old? They'll just quietly wait the new engine...
People want easy copy/paste scripts and things like that, give these to them and they will be happy.
They want essentials....less essential.

Essentials would be bigger if every one who has resources give them to every one...
I'm not saying to give me more things, because I want all already done, but be more user friendly, make tutorials and a more in depth explanation of every script, I know that just knowing ruby is good enough, but reverse engineering essentials is taking me quite a while for example and the wiki is nice but it's like just maruno goes there....others just skip it. (A point for Fl, he goes there sometimes, but I've never seen slayer....and I've even seen FL scripts too there. )

What I'm saying is that if someone wants something, he should study and do it himself, the community should be there for help him to make things easier.

We should be realistic, we can do enough with essentials and what we can't, may be implemented.
We don't even have all 4/5 gen moves right and we think to do a different engine? Bah...
What I'm sure of, is that Maruno should rest and do what he likes, we shouldn't put all on him.
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Old January 22nd, 2014 (04:13 PM).
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People say that a new engine would kill essentials as if there are no contributors posting scripts for essentials as it is...

That is so far from true. What would kill essentials is individuals moving over to the new engine at their own will. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.
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Old January 22nd, 2014 (08:47 PM).
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People are failing to realize that not everyone is gonna jump on this new engine simply because it will have this and that ...

The new engine will most likely have just as much of a learning curve as Essentials, and, as a matter of fact, the curve will probably be even greater when the engine is still new. Scripting is scripting, people will still need to know a language if they want to heavily customize anything. I highly doubt Maruno's goal with this is to create "a completely user friendly engine that requires absolutely no knowledge of scripting in order to create a game," so all of the new blood will still go to Essentials because it will be more user-friendly and complete for a long while.

I also don't see why everyone on here thinks "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" ROM hacking and Essentials exist side-by-side, and one can say both are still "alive". Even if it wasn't Maruno making the engine, on what grounds do you think a new engine is a bad thing? If I released an "Essentials Unity" engine tomorrow and it was "better than regular Essentials in every way," would people reject that too? It's called progress people. What if people refused to use computers because the typewriter worked just fine? If Maruno wants to make a new engine with the hopes that it will surpass Essentials, we should be helping him, not hindering him. If anything, we should be happy with the idea that the community may someday have access to an engine that is better and stronger than the current one.
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  #61    
Old January 22nd, 2014 (09:23 PM).
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Yes, building a new engine will be difficult and time-consuming. Yes, it will probably not be popular with the average user at first because of the need for porting older games and learning the new API. Yes, there have been many attempts to create new engines that have sizzled out and failed. And yes, if the new engine does what it sets out to do, it will most likely seize most of the current users away from Essentials.

But what's so bad about that? Essentials is, essentially, flawed from the ground up because of the inherent restrictions. With proper design, a new engine may result in much faster development in the long run, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Being realistic about the amount of work required is one thing. Being defeatist is another.
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Old January 22nd, 2014 (09:39 PM).
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Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
People say that a new engine would kill essentials as if there are no contributors posting scripts for essentials as it is...

That is so far from true. What would kill essentials is individuals moving over to the new engine at their own will. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.
You're one of the people who would be working on this, right?

I'll ask again since I think it got lost in the doom and gloom. What skills and experience are you guys looking for when recruiting a team? I'm not promising to help, but I'd like to know.
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  #63    
Old January 23rd, 2014 (07:34 AM).
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Quote originally posted by SuperSmash5:
You're one of the people who would be working on this, right?

I'll ask again since I think it got lost in the doom and gloom. What skills and experience are you guys looking for when recruiting a team? I'm not promising to help, but I'd like to know.
We are not looking for people, so there are not any skills we are looking for. We also are not even at a point where this is even remotely confirmed as a project, just playing with a net really.

Marino can correct me if I am wrong.
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  #64    
Old January 23rd, 2014 (07:53 AM).
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Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
We are not looking for people, so there are not any skills we are looking for. We also are not even at a point where this is even remotely confirmed as a project, just playing with a net really.

Marino can correct me if I am wrong.
You are wrong. It's spelled Maruno.

I can confirm that all we've done so far is spent an evening last week hypothesising about some wonderful new game engine. I've done as much with other people, and nothing happened there either. Nothing's confirmed, there's no fixed intentions, nothing. In fact, Worldslayer hasn't even spoken to me since then.
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Old January 23rd, 2014 (08:18 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Maruno:
You are wrong. It's spelled Maruno.

I can confirm that all we've done so far is spent an evening last week hypothesising about some wonderful new game engine. I've done as much with other people, and nothing happened there either. Nothing's confirmed, there's no fixed intentions, nothing. In fact, Worldslayer hasn't even spoken to me since then.
Marino is in my phone's auto correct haha. I swear I added Maruno to it, but apparently not.

To be fair, I have not spoken to anyone on Skype since that evening. Saving Raven can probably vouch for that haha. I have been juggling a potential job opportunity with another Agency over the last couple weeks so that has been my number one focus up until pretty much last night.
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  #66    
Old January 24th, 2014 (10:38 PM).
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I only wish to do some things that aren't easy only with these two things, generally more global Ctrl+F features(for text, resources, script at events, etc...) and other useful things like ability to create loops at musics only with the engine.
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Old January 25th, 2014 (04:52 PM).
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Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
There is a difference between keeping people grounded, and demotivating people sir. You are motivational.

You have not touched on any points in a manner that is even remotely supportive of theory crafting, not even provided jack in the way of being constructive. Instead, you opt to a "Sitck ot Essentials because it is not broken" approach.

OBVIOUSLY there is something wrong with Essentials at this point, as both myself and Maruno have been discussing something else.

I did not say it would be easy, anywhere in this entire thread, nor did I claim Rome was built in a day. You are sounding straight up pretentious with your last remarks, but I will disregard that.

Don't expect a response from me again, you are clearly the current problem that this idea has, not the number of lines that need to be re-coded for a new engine.
Basically, it's that I'd said:

Quote originally posted by FL:
I always prefer to unite ours efforts than try separate engines. In my opinion the benefits really not worth it.
So, okay, I start a better analysis of the new engine features that Maruno said:
  • Unlimited autotiles/map layers: Autotiles really are a good feature, but map layers rarely are a problem.
  • Faster: This is a good feature, but rarely is a problem.
  • More compatibility with other OSes: Less than 5% of the players uses Linux/OS X, but this will be awesome if there a easy way of porting the game for Android. I received several messages about if there a way of my game runs at Android, the last one I replied few hours ago. Really this would be a strong reason to do a new engine, but making a engine capable of porting both ways is VERY hard, even knowing that Android uses Java (and the Android API full of Activities, Fragments, Layouts, among others). High probably this is out of Maruno's scope.
  • Better support of gifs and audio files: Probably there's a way of fixing these things at Essentials, but isn't a high issue.
  • Being designed specifically to make Pokémon games rather than generic RPGs (e.g. almost all of RMXP's Database is unused in Essentials because it doesn't work how it needs to, thus PBS files): This isn't too necessary because of Editor. And text files are also easy to browse. But, anyway, this is a good feature.
  • Free: The best feature at my opinion, this probably will introduce more people at Game Development.
  • Potential support for 3D: Less that 10% of the users will successfully use this.
  • A more computer-based game design, including better screen resizing and mouse input (if you want): All doable at Essentials.

We have a good sum of useful features, but this, at my opinion, doesn't deserves adapting even half of Essentials huge number of lines of code, but if you, Maruno and others want to do this, I wish good luck.

Quote originally posted by ЩѻƦḽᶑʂḽдƴƹƦ™:
People say that a new engine would kill essentials as if there are no contributors posting scripts for essentials as it is...

That is so far from true. What would kill essentials is individuals moving over to the new engine at their own will. Nobody is putting a gun to their head.
I totally agree. I only hope that the new engine would be good enough to totally overcome Essentials. I just want that the two engines coexisting doesn't make the community more divided.

Quote originally posted by GReusch:
I also don't see why everyone on here thinks "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" ROM hacking and Essentials exist side-by-side, and one can say both are still "alive". Even if it wasn't Maruno making the engine, on what grounds do you think a new engine is a bad thing? If I released an "Essentials Unity" engine tomorrow and it was "better than regular Essentials in every way," would people reject that too? It's called progress people. What if people refused to use computers because the typewriter worked just fine? If Maruno wants to make a new engine with the hopes that it will surpass Essentials, we should be helping him, not hindering him. If anything, we should be happy with the idea that the community may someday have access to an engine that is better and stronger than the current one.
The ROM hacking is a different case, since the people hacks not only one type of ROM, but several ones, and the rom hacking have very bads limitation (like a limited number of pokémon/moves/abilites/palette) enough for making a new engine.

If all people of ROM hacking focus at a game engine (just like Essentials) this will result in a united communty. we probably have a huge progress like: all gen 4/5/6 abilities and moves and a huge number of add-ons scripts, maybe we have even online battles!

I prefer to unite ours efforts, but ROM hacking have too many differences that the development with Essentials at point that the huge number of the games are the official ones with some different features. So, maybe the segmentation is necessary in this case.

Quote originally posted by fanri:
I only wish to do some things that aren't easy only with these two things, generally more global Ctrl+F features(for text, resources, script at events, etc...) and other useful things like ability to create loops at musics only with the engine.
You Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V my post...
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  #68    
Old February 16th, 2014 (04:13 PM).
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i would like to see a fully complete rpg vx ace engine with online capability (tade and pvp) capable of all features from current game lists and using the database (also easyis combatability with existing 3rd party scripts (would love to use the materia script that i own for example)
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  #69    
Old February 17th, 2014 (05:48 PM).
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That starter kit, should it come into fruition, could be Ruby-compatible again. Maybe then it would be possible to port Essentials projects to it with relative ease, am I wrong?

I feel Essentials has it all though, besides non-accessible scripting (although mostly due to poor documentation) and incomplete stuff like non-working Abilites and the such, and that could be fixed with time. A new engine that surpasses it would be the best, but I'm pretty sure it's tiring work for you developers. If you're up for it, know I support you.
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Old February 20th, 2014 (07:05 PM).
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I would like to see essentially a Pokemon Essentials kit for RPG Maker VX Ace, maybe with a few new pieces of functionality as well as some modules like a Shadow Pokemon module that can be added easily but not in the basic version.
As for art style, I'd still like for 2d, possibly updated to have some things from Gen4(maybe not the 3d objects since those don't look too good in ace) but keep the more chibi styled characters as resized black and white sprites tend to look too blurry.
For gameplay, I'd like it to be similar to Gen4 or 5. Possibly with added functionality that can be used for contests and the like.

I know there's currently "Pokemon for Ace" but the kit crashes from catching a Pokemon thanks to it's Shadow Pokemon script, and I'm not sure if that script can be easily removed.
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Old March 8th, 2014 (07:06 PM).
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For a starter kit i have built a kinda rpg xp clone but droped it(i got bored) i might pick it up agian and combine it with my IRGSS im makeing
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  #72    
Old March 8th, 2014 (11:02 PM).
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I think one thing that could help out a bit would be this: http://www.cocos2d-x.org/
It's an cross-platform base engine, and looks quite promising. It claims to support iOS, Android, etc.
I haven't used it, but I've seen some of what it can do. Plus, AFAIK it supports Tiled maps, so there's a potential map editor
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  #73    
Old March 11th, 2014 (02:01 AM). Edited March 11th, 2014 by Destiny..
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As a person who's seen as technologically savvy and has dabbled in scripting with 0 formal training, let me say that any of the scripting more complicated than the scripting in RMXP is probably going to be IMPOSSIBLE for the average user to use and let alone learn. Or I'm dumb. Take your pick. The documentation for most languages except the ones targetted at beginners is like trying to decipher an ancient language, though it does get easier with practice and it's quite easy to digest if you're doing something like CodeAcademy. Pokemon Essentials is, comparatively, covered pretty well in the Wiki, but nothing can help you at all if you're struggling with things like what || means and you have no idea how to describe aspects of scripting without sounding like an untalented n00b.

(Though RMXP/essentials is always going to be easier to use and more flexible than Rom hacking, which makes even the most basic graphics replacement look like a pain in the neck.)

Other things you need to consider is that while 3d graphics sounds absolutely awesome, making them is going to be crappy. I've seen and played lots of fangames made with Essentials which is pretty much awesome. Except for the fact that all the graphics are the default graphics. Making a single tile for a game can take upwards of an hour. Not all of us have that time to make even basic 2D assets fom scratch!

How long is a 3d graphic going to take? Firstly, you'd have to learn an entirely new program in order to make those awesome 3d graphics. Don't forget, if Smealum (the 3ds hacker) doesn't end up dumping the models we'd have to make everything (tiles, Pokemon) ourselves in order to unlock the full potential. Don't even get me started on textures and stuff. :/ I've played with Daz3d (which uses pre-existing 3d models) and it's way confusing even without building anything by yourself. Photoshop - which I taught myself - is at least sublimely easy to use.

I think the Pokemon fangame fandom can be split up into several groups.
People who play fangames and people who make fangames.
Of the people who make fangames, we'd mostly fit into Game development (pretty much RMXP (with Essentials) small group) - and Rom Hacking - (larger group).

If another engine came out, the Game development section would be fragmented even further into RMXP vs the new engine.

Then there will be all this fun stuff like fragmentation into the different softwares (Blender, 3DS Max, Maya and ZBrush). That software is going to require some specialist skill which only very few people will have. It's going to be unlikely that a person can both code well and art decently. Sure, it would be great if fangame making was totally co-operative, but let me tell you now fangames seem to have either decent script or decent artwork and it seem they are mutually exclusive concepts.

My point is, if quite a lot of people can't even handle/don't have the time for drawing 2D sprites (heck, even recolouring them seems to pose a massive challenge - which can be done in MS Paint) - which ought to be the BASIC MINIMUM REQUIREMENT of artistic ability - how does that even hint at the fact that people are capable of working in 3D.

I mean, I'm sure lots of people are capable of the things I've mentioned, but I've yet to see many released games with original 2D assets that are not copied from mass produced tilesets from sprite artists (and even this is in the minority). I'm just saying that I can't see many people being able to use 3D assets if people are already having trouble with 2D assets. If it's animation we're looking for, perhaps better support for gifs and if Smealum dumps the existing 3D models there would probably be a possibility for 3D.

But heck, if we're in it for animated things it's always going to be easier to manipulate existing 2D assets a la After Effects puppetwarp than 3D assets. If 3D software is so widely used, why have I only seen a single artist in my entire life use 3D software to produce an animated 'mon? The person is http://nyobakugan.deviantart.com/gallery/ I discovered them a few days ago. I'm not talking about paid professionals, obviously. I hang around often in places like Deviantart looking for art like that, surely if there was potential for 3d and the willingness to spend time on it, surely I'd have seen it by now.

But no, I haven't seen the potential in any released fangames. And even if some very few talented people are able to create mon like that, you'd have to remember that the quality of art is REALLY not representative of the average quality of art in fan Pokemon games. Not to sound whingy, but the artist in me sometimes cringes.

(It doesn't really help that the some of the seemingly best graphic fangames appear to be abandoned/unreleased projects insofar)

Obviously, I've got no complaints for what happens with the engine. It's not my place to dictate the future of where we're going/where we're going to end up. In fact, I'm happy and appreciate all the work that's gone into Pokemon Essentials. Simply put, it surpasses Rom Hacking both in usability and customisability by an incredibly large amount. If it is as simple as PE, I could ask for nothing better.

However, I'd prefer to see all the proposed features used to the fullest extent possible and maybe RMXP is more accessible. I dislike some aspects of RMXP - for example, tileset limitations and positioning tiles on a grid is the worst - but I also recognise that while it is not perfect and while there are things that I'd love to see - for example, all gen VI abilities - it is quite simple to use for something that versatile without going into the code and attempting to (and failing to) create it myself.
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Old March 16th, 2014 (03:51 PM).
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DaSpirit DaSpirit is offline
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Quote originally posted by Destiny.:
If 3D software is so widely used, why have I only seen a single artist in my entire life use 3D software to produce an animated 'mon?
Maybe it's because you're on the wrong website for that. I barely see any models on deviantArt at all. Try checking model websites.


In my honest opinion, I believe that the next possible contender in the Pokémon engine search should be one with its own compiler, with its own language. Such a dedicated project would be very good for beginners, especially if it has its own scripting language specific for making Pokémon fan games. I say "should" because it is unlikely to happen, but if it ever does, nothing will be able to beat it. Perhaps it could even be as high level as to play back events as you add them (as in not adding them as text, but by adding them through the map and other editors).

If you guys really want a new kit, then why not think back on how Pokémon Essentials succeeded where others didn't and replicate it?
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Old March 19th, 2014 (07:45 AM).
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Worldslayer608 Worldslayer608 is offline
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You cannot replicate dedication. You either just have it or you don't and that is really what made PE successful.
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