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  #1    
Old March 1st, 2014 (02:31 PM).
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So, some time ago Smogon banned Mega Blaziken (for Speed Boost), Mega Kangaskhan (for unstoppableness involving Power-Up Punch), and Mega Gengar (for general trickery) from their whatever-thing. I don't really care much about their whatever-thing, but this got my attention. Why? Because as a fan of Pokemon and my involvement with its meta. This type of thing has really has gotten on my nerves in the past (the banning of Soul Dew, for example) and I'm fearing an all-out ban of the use of Mega Stones online for X and Y.
Don't worry, this won't be an essay, but an articulation of my opinion (a rant, you could say). The reason this bothers me so much is the fact that other video games let their metas evolve on their own. If Pokemon did this, it would be like this: Someone finds a really powerful Pokemon, and they use it in the meta. Some of the meta copies this person, while the rest look for a counter. As many start using this counter, people can predict that they will be facing this counter, and the meta flows like that accordingly. However, Smogon doesn't seem to want that to happen. What they are doing is trying to ban all Pokemon that take over the meta without letting it flow, thus creating a somewhat broken meta.

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I was kinda in a hurry in typing this because it's pretty long.
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  #2    
Old March 1st, 2014 (02:52 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
So, some time ago Smogon banned Mega Blaziken (for Speed Boost), Mega Kangaskhan (for unstoppableness involving Power-Up Punch), and Mega Gengar (for general trickery) from their whatever-thing. I don't really care much about their whatever-thing, but this got my attention. Why? Because as a fan of Pokemon and my involvement with its meta. This type of thing has really has gotten on my nerves in the past (the banning of Soul Dew, for example) and I'm fearing an all-out ban of the use of Mega Stones online for X and Y.
Don't worry, this won't be an essay, but an articulation of my opinion (a rant, you could say). The reason this bothers me so much is the fact that other video games let their metas evolve on their own. If Pokemon did this, it would be like this: Someone finds a really powerful Pokemon, and they use it in the meta. Some of the meta copies this person, while the rest look for a counter. As many start using this counter, people can predict that they will be facing this counter, and the meta flows like that accordingly. However, Smogon doesn't seem to want that to happen. What they are doing is trying to ban all Pokemon that take over the meta without letting it flow, thus creating a somewhat broken meta.

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I was kinda in a hurry in typing this because it's pretty long.
You dont have to play by smogons rules. However if you ever aspire to perform on a competitive platform then you'll most likely have to let go or your wants for op pkmn
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  #3    
Old March 1st, 2014 (02:58 PM).
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Quote originally posted by scprepschool:
You dont have to play by smogons rules. However if you ever aspire to perform on a competitive platform then you'll most likely have to let go or your wants for op pkmn
I know, I know, but it kinda worries me that the guys running X and Y will ban them from the official...
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Old March 1st, 2014 (03:01 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
I know, I know, but it kinda worries me that the guys running X and Y will ban them from the official...
What do you mean official? Like the world championships or online all together? They won't ever ban anything from online all together if that's what your worried about. I hope I'm not jinxing anything lol
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  #5    
Old March 1st, 2014 (03:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by scprepschool:
What do you mean official? Like the world championships or online all together? They won't ever ban anything from online all together if that's what your worried about. I hope I'm not jinxing anything lol
Like every online battle. I'm afraid they will ban Mega Stones like they did with Soul Dew
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  #6    
Old March 1st, 2014 (03:56 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
Like every online battle. I'm afraid they will ban Mega Stones like they did with Soul Dew
Doubt it brah, soul dew is more of an exclusive type of item than the mega stone. If they did that would be lame because most mega evolutions aren't even that great and unlike soul dew the mega stone itself is the only extension to a battle mechanic, so if they ban mega stones they ban the whole m evolution mechanic, which seems silly
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  #7    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:00 PM).
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The things you've mentioned have been banned to their ubers tier? They can still be used in smogon ubers battles right? They've been banned from OU tier because they are too powerful for it.

I'm not sure how anyone can complain about mega kangashkan being banned to ubers unless they abuse it's OPness. It has taunt-resistant swords dance that deals damage, breaks focus sash and sturdy, has massive attack, can hit through sub etc.

If you're playing battlespot you have to bring a counter to it every time, and assume they lead with it. I run rock polish, weakness policy rhyperior as it counters mega blaziken too.
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  #8    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:04 PM). Edited March 1st, 2014 by Sopheria.
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Quote:
The things you've mentioned have been banned to their ubers tier? They can still be used in smogon ubers battles right? They've been banned from OU tier because they are too powerful for it.
No, they're banned from play altogether. You're not even allowed to use them in Ubers.

I have to say, I completely agree with Smogon's bans. Smogon is actually very reluctant to ban anything, and they only do it in cases of extremely overpowered Pokemon. The problem with certain Pokemon like Mega Blaziken and Mega Kangaskhan is that there is a very limited number of counters to them. With them in the metagame, players wouldn't get much variety in the teams they could use because they would be forced to make a team that could counter those Pokemon. That ruins the fun of the metagame when you have to tailor your entire team just to counter one threat.
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  #9    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:11 PM).
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Quote:
If you're playing battlespot you have to bring a counter to it every time, and assume they lead with it. I run rock polish, weakness policy rhyperior as it counters mega blaziken too.
This is why I don't think anything should be banned, because everything has a counter.
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  #10    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:12 PM).
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Quote originally posted by zomgitscathy:
No, they're banned from play altogether. You're not even allowed to use them in Ubers.
Have they not updated their tiers information or something?

Everything I'm reading says that Blaziken itself, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite are all banned from OU but only the following applies to ubers:

Endless Battle Clause
Moody Clause
OHKO Clause
Sleep Clause
Species Clause
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  #11    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:20 PM).
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Quote:
I have to say, I completely agree with Smogon's bans. Smogon is actually very reluctant to ban anything, and they only do it in cases of extremely overpowered Pokemon. The problem with certain Pokemon like Mega Blaziken and Mega Kangaskhan is that there is a very limited number of counters to them. With them in the metagame, players wouldn't get much variety in the teams they could use because they would be forced to make a team that could counter those Pokemon. That ruins the fun of the metagame when you have to tailor your entire team just to counter one threat.
I think that trying to find a counter for that Pokemon would be beneficial and enjoyable as once you find a counter, you reach your incentive: some wins against that Pokemon. And it makes it interesting when two people battle and neither of them have the Pokemon, but two different counter teams.
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  #12    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:21 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
This is why I don't think anything should be banned, because everything has a counter.
That makes the game boring. You have to design your team around countering a pokemon they might not even have, rather than your own strategy.
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  #13    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:26 PM).
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Simply don't play Showdown and tell people to ♥♥♥♥ off if they complain about you using "banned" Pokémon in Battle Spot.

In the pre-Smogon days, Snorlax was the dominant Pokémon but people didn't seem to want to ban it anyway, despite it being the best Pokémon in the game, and as good as the Ubers (maybe even better than things like Ho-Oh).
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  #14    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:28 PM).
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Quote originally posted by NRG:
Have they not updated their tiers information or something?

Everything I'm reading says that Blaziken itself, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite are all banned from OU but only the following applies to ubers:

Endless Battle Clause
Moody Clause
OHKO Clause
Sleep Clause
Species Clause
Wait, you might actually be right. I thought I remembered reading a thread in the forums saying they changed their ban policy in XY, but I can't find it at the moment...
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Old March 1st, 2014 (04:29 PM).
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If smogon wouldn't ban anything we would end up with players playing with the same old pokemons all the time and the ones who don't use them loses the matches until they start using them. It would make the game boring.
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  #16    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:37 PM).
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Quote originally posted by zomgitscathy:
Wait, you might actually be right. I thought I remembered reading a thread in the forums saying they changed their ban policy in XY, but I can't find it at the moment...
"Banned" Pokemon can be used in Ubers. The Uber tier is essentially where you can battle with all the "banned" Pokemon.

Also, Badass Panda hit the nail on the head; the reason why tiers and banlist exist is because if they didn't, everyone would use the same ♥♥♥♥ all the time, making for a very boring metagame.
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  #17    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:47 PM).
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And in that case, why hasn't Game Freak created an official tier system for online play?
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  #18    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:48 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
And in that case, why hasn't Game Freak created an official tier system for online play?
No need, really. Battle communities and servers have done a good enough job making their own tier systems.
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  #19    
Old March 1st, 2014 (04:52 PM).
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Quote originally posted by zomgitscathy:
No need, really. Battle communities and servers have done a good enough job making their own tier systems.
But the in-game ranking and straight-up random battle finding system can result in some seriously unfair matches. I don't think they should be replaced, but to have an additional option for tiered battles in X and Y and future generations.
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Old March 1st, 2014 (04:56 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
But the in-game ranking and straight-up random battle finding system can result in some seriously unfair matches. I don't think they should be replaced, but to have an additional option for tiered battles in X and Y and future generations.
Ranked Battle Spot battles have most Uber pokemon banned from them.
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  #21    
Old March 1st, 2014 (05:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by No Chance Without Zekrom:
Ranked Battle Spot battles have most Uber pokemon banned from them.
I'm talking about the Megas
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  #22    
Old March 1st, 2014 (05:18 PM). Edited March 1st, 2014 by Howmander.
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It's interesting how people keep defending the bans by saying it keeps people from using the same pokemon over and over again, but if you look at the tries people ALREADY do that because if they're in this teir, they can't use that, that, that or that, so that ONLY leaves this or this. Even the smogon movesets primarily list moves to counter SPECIFICALLY NAMED pokemon rather than pokemon types and list the counters againas specifically named pokemon rather than types because of the tries, there's only specific pokemon you can use in specific teirs. Not to mention my endless rants against their idiotic bans (yes, idiotic!) Blaziken gets banned because of speed boost? I forgot that the faster it gets, the more moves per turn it gets. Oh wait! It doesn't! If you're slower than Blaziken when the battle starts, Blaziken gets NO benefit whatsoever. Then there's the stupid double team ban. Oh no! A move that has dozens of counter moves, several abilities and even an item that counters it, THERE'S NO DEFENCE AGAINST THIS SUPER MOVE! Better ban it from use! I'm just waiting for them to ban Nuzzle. (A move that damages AND paralyzed?! Holy crap!! Screw Arceus, pichu will destroy everything in existence! ;-) )

There's the lame justification of "evasion makes the game based on luck rather than skill!" Which could be said about EVERY move. If you're prepared, evasion boosts mean nothing. But everyone is smogon apparently loses both bladder and bowel control at the thought of it.

A HUGE thing that the teirs have produced is interchangeable movesets. You look (objectively) at a crap ton of the movesets are totally interchangeable. If it's a special sweeper, it has thunderbolt, flamethrower, ice beam, psychic. If it's a physical sweeper it has earthquake, Rock slide, close combat, flare blitz, annoyed have toxic, substitute, confuse ray, etc, etc. those aren't the actual movesets, but my point has been made that you can defend the tiers by saying that it prevents the same pokemon from being used over and over, but it really doesn't. It in fact not only makes the same pokemon used over and over, it makes the same movesets used over and over. It genuinely won't take you very long looking at smogon movesets to see movesets that don't even take the type consideration of the user into account, let alone ones that make no use of it's natural stat spread or ability. (There's plenty that DO, don't get me wrong, but there's stills significant number that don't)

Basically, everything is an interchangeable physical sweeper, or a special sweeper, or an annoyer, or a wall, or a baton passer, or a healer. The only thing that prevents identical movesets on everything in the same category is that not everything can learn everything. And on top of that, there's the hugely underused class if pokemon that are obviously meant to be evaders. Just because smogon wets themselves in terror at the thought of a surskit with double team, they simply ban the move altogether rather than learning how to combat it. There's many pokemon that have good attacks and speed but terrible HP and defenses. Obviously those ones are not made to fit into the narrow category smogon sets up, but rather their own class where they hit hard and just try not to get hit back in return by slinking into the shadows. But because smogon thinks every battle should be like the British army where everyone just stands there firing at each other no one learns new, unique strategies, no one learns how to use evaders and therefore never learns how to counter them, so the meta game stagnates because no one is trying creative, amazing, wonderful strategies, they just make all the pokemon fit into 1 of 5 categories and try to shoehorn similar movesets onto everything in that category.

I too am a strong believer in everything has a counter battling, because everything does. The teirs make everyone use the same pokemon over and over, but allowing anyone to use anything does quite the opposite. Sure at first people will keep using the most powerful same pokemon over and over, but then people will figure out counters to those, and the. More people will use those and someone else will figure out counters to those and so on and so on. Just because today everyone is using mega kangaskhan, for example, doesn't mean people won't figure out counters to those, have the counter on all their teams then very quickly no one is using kangaskhan but rather the counter, and so on and so on, and the game will evolve from there. Removing the incentive to think for yourself by banning pokemon, moves and strategies doesn't help anyone. It in fact reduces imaginative battlers and makes them unable to function if anyone else tries anything other than the smogon pre approved movesets.
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  #23    
Old March 1st, 2014 (05:20 PM).
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Quote originally posted by SparksPKMN:
But the in-game ranking and straight-up random battle finding system can result in some seriously unfair matches. I don't think they should be replaced, but to have an additional option for tiered battles in X and Y and future generations.
I don't think their should be a teir system at all. I DO however think that you should have the option to not battle someone when you see their party before the battle starts.
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  #24    
Old March 1st, 2014 (05:21 PM).
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Howmander, do you have a tl;dr version of that?

Also:
Quote originally posted by Howmander:
I DO however think that you should have the option to not battle someone when you see their party before the battle starts.
So I should only battle teams that I can counter or easily take down? Because that's basically what that sentence says; that I should avoid all challenging battles.
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  #25    
Old March 1st, 2014 (05:46 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Howmander:
I don't think their should be a teir system at all. I DO however think that you should have the option to not battle someone when you see their party before the battle starts.
Then there would hardly be any battles since people can just not battle people they'll lose against, and so no one gets to battle.
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