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View Full Version : For those who think kyogre or groudon beat Ray...


Human_Tank
September 12th, 2007, 10:32 AM
I was reading forums and most people were thinkin Ray is best but some people thaught kyogre beat groudon and ray.. Thats wrong.

Ray can own kyogre with one thunder move and is faster so it will strike first..
Ray can own groudon with say surf or something..
Groudon can own kyogre with a solarbeam NOTE: Solarbeams DO NOT take 2 turns with groudon just one!
But kyogre could also beat groudon but i doubt it could beat ray...
Sorry to all you kyogre lovers but the order i think it stands at are
1.Ray
2.Groud
3.Kyog

Te-em
September 12th, 2007, 10:34 AM
Who is Ray? It's not a Pokemon.

Human_Tank
September 12th, 2007, 10:48 AM
Who is Ray? It's not a Pokemon.

Rayquaza but short i call him ray for short or ray ray lol not really but couldnt spell the last bit

Chibi Pika
September 12th, 2007, 11:07 AM
Ray can own kyogre with one thunder move and is faster so it will strike first..
Ray can own groudon with say surf or something..
Groudon can own kyogre with a solarbeam NOTE: Solarbeams DO NOT take 2 turns with groudon just one! (Only if he's slower than Kyogre...)
But kyogre could also beat groudon but i doubt it could beat ray...
Sorry to all you kyogre lovers but the order i think it stands at are
1. Thunder? Who uses Thunder? Kyogre yes, but Rayquaza???
2. Solarbeam on Groudon? Rofl.
3. While we're on the subect of things, Ice beam > Rayquaza.

What is this trying to prove? Groudon has been repeatedly called one of the best Pokes of the 3rd gen, for his functionings related to the entire team (plus SD + EQ), but...Rayquaza ain't exactly broke, so...

~Chibi~

Human_Tank
September 12th, 2007, 11:10 AM
I taught it thunder to beat off the ice pokemon in the E4 and solarbeam to kill its weakness ( for groudon ) which is water and there weak againsst grass and with its ability it has a solarbeam in 1 move so i thaght it was useful

Chibi Pika
September 12th, 2007, 11:22 AM
No ubers really "suck." Course, some have stats in the wrong place or less diverse movepools, but... However, some are undeniably broke (Groudon, Lugia, ect...), while some aren't.


Umm...I think you meant Thunder to beat Water, not Ice. ^^;;; And Thunderbolt > Thunder..the latter has crap accuracy. ><

Groudon's Attack >>> his Special Attack, especially with Swords Dance. Special Groudon is novelty at best, and even with SuperEffective, he won't KO Kyogre. Plus, the slower Legend gets its wether effect in play. (The faster weather goes in first, then gets overrided by the next one). So Kyogre would get a free hit with Ice Beam anyway.

However...it's tricky to compare the three. Kyogre has more means to kill Groudon (Surf w/ its weather effect, Ice Beam w/o), but Groudon is better overall. SO I don't know how Rayquaza ranks overall.

Human_Tank
September 12th, 2007, 12:03 PM
Yeah i jst beat pokemon league missed with thunder 8 times -.- what i meant is in the pokemon league most of the ice pokemon are like water + ice so its usefull apart from that glalie or what ever its caleld i forgot its like a big ice ball a bigger icyier version of geodude lol in my opinon i been thinkin about it and i think theres ways in which each legend could kill the other it depends or your style like mine is brute force thats why i feel rayquaza is best for me you may feel that kyogre is better or groudon which i understandable after this is only my opinion everyone has one

Shiraishi
September 12th, 2007, 12:54 PM
Lol, who cares about the E4. In-game opponents are usually crap. I chibi's opinion because it has facts to back it up while yours has nothing.

Faceless*
September 12th, 2007, 1:10 PM
I was reading forums and most people were thinkin Ray is best but some people thaught kyogre beat groudon and ray.. Thats wrong.

Ray can own kyogre with one thunder move and is faster so it will strike first..
Ray can own groudon with say surf or something..
Groudon can own kyogre with a solarbeam NOTE: Solarbeams DO NOT take 2 turns with groudon just one!
But kyogre could also beat groudon but i doubt it could beat ray...
Sorry to all you kyogre lovers but the order i think it stands at are
1.Ray
2.Groud
3.Kyog

TIME TO PROVE YOUR OBSERVATIONS INCORRECT! MUAHAHA! :)

Rayquaza isnt able to KO Kyogre in just one hit with Thunder, after it uses Thunder Kyogre will counter with Ice Beam. Kyogres nowadays usually carry Choice Scarf, which means Kyogre WILL go first and eliminate Rayquaza ?_?

Rayquaza learning Surf... gahaha no. And by the way, Solarbeam on Groudon... it's just horrible, won't really dent Kyogre.

1. Kyogre
2. Rayquaza
3. Groudon

Happy? ^^

Gymnotide
September 12th, 2007, 7:12 PM
TIME TO PROVE YOUR OBSERVATIONS INCORRECT! MUAHAHA! :)

Rayquaza isnt able to KO Kyogre in just one hit with Thunder, after it uses Thunder Kyogre will counter with Ice Beam. Kyogres nowadays usually carry Choice Scarf, which means Kyogre WILL go first and eliminate Rayquaza ?_?

Rayquaza learning Surf... gahaha no. And by the way, Solarbeam on Groudon... it's just horrible, won't really dent Kyogre.

1. Kyogre
2. Rayquaza
3. Groudon

Happy? ^^
That's what I was thinking :)
To add, Kyogre has 140 SPDEF and Groudon only has 100SPATK, and that heavily dampens alot of Groudon's special moves - most notably its Solarbeam and Eruption - not really many options to beat Kyogre, even with electric attacks it can learn (Thunder has reduced accuracy as well).

Kyogre is definately the superior of the three as it can learn ice attacks, completely owning the 4x weak Rayquaza and the 2x weak Groudon. Even without Drizzle, Kyogre is still strong enough to take the other two out.

Oh, and Groudon can't use STAB against Rayquaza, either and its Fire moves are cut in half against Kyogre and Rayquaza anyways + no weather against Rayquaza, not to mention the no physical-special split in GBA games. The only thing it really has against Rayquaza is Rock Slide or something.

Chibi Pika
September 12th, 2007, 8:02 PM
To add, Kyogre has 140 SPDEF and Groudon only has 100SPATK, and that heavily dampens alot of Groudon's special moves - most notably its Solarbeam and Eruption - not really many options to beat Kyogre, even with electric attacks it can learn (Thunder has reduced accuracy as well).
But...Groudon wouldn't be using Special moves, *period* so Kyogre's Special Defence doesn't matter. Thunder would not have reduced accuracy if Groudon was faster than Kyogre, but who would teach Thunder to Groudon anyway? xD Same with Solarbeam. Fire moves are only for Skarmory/Bronzong, why would Groudon even be using them against Kyogre? It's not even a matter of Kyogre's SpDef making it bad--it's just bad, period. Swords Danced EQ is the only way to go against Kyogre. OR, forget SD, and Choice Band instead. 637 Attack hurts. Bad.
Oh, and Groudon can't use STAB against Rayquaza, either and its Fire moves are cut in half against Kyogre and Rayquaza anyways + no weather against Rayquaza, not to mention the no physical-special split in GBA games. The only thing it really has against Rayquaza is Rock Slide or something.
Fire moves...against Kyogre? Even if they *weren't* cut in half...I don't get it. >< EQ on Kyogre, always. Best yet, make a slow Groudon so Drought is in effect, and give him Choice Scarf, then EQ. And against Rayquaza, Choice Scarf a Stone Edge.

Elaborate on the Special/physical bit, because as far as I know, the split passed these ubers by. The only difference is Groudon lost Hidden Power Bug and got Shadow Claw. But that's for Latis, not Ky and Ray.

When it comes down to it, each of them has a means to kill the other. That's Pokemon. Their true value lies in their functioning in a team and battle as a whole.

~Chibi~

PrinceSushi
September 12th, 2007, 8:57 PM
I don't know much about each pokemon's stats but I personally prefer Kyorge over Groudon and Rayquaza.

Ha, I also think Kyorge looks the best. Groudon is just to chunky and blocky. XD

Human_Tank
September 13th, 2007, 7:10 AM
haha i just wooped my mates jyogre with my groudon and with my rayquaza and my mate isnt new to pokemon games u lot can still argue but i know my moveset owns

kyogre*** spelt it wrong

Faceless*
September 13th, 2007, 2:12 PM
haha i just wooped my mates jyogre with my groudon and with my rayquaza and my mate isnt new to pokemon games u lot can still argue but i know my moveset owns

kyogre*** spelt it wrong

... Only thing I can tell you is that he IS new to Pokemon.. he would never even heard of EV training or DV's/IV's in any way for that matter

Chibi Pika
September 13th, 2007, 2:20 PM
Some interesting numbers:

*Guaranteed OHKOs Underlined.

Max Attack Groudon's EQ used on Standard Kyogre: 258 damage

Max Attack Groudon's SD'ed EQ used on Standard Kyogre: 514 damage

Max Attack Groudon's Stone Edge used on Standard Rayquaza: 344 Damage

Max Attack Groudon's SD'ed Stone Edge used on Standard Rayquaza: 685 Damage

Max Sp.Atk Kyogre's Surf (Drought) used on Standard Groudon: 245 Damage

Max Sp.Atk Kyogre's Surf (Drizzle) used on Standard Groudon: 737 Damage

Max Sp.Atk Kyogre's Ice Beam used on Standard Groudon: 327 Damage

Max SP.Atk Kyogre's Ice Beam used on Standard Rayquaza: 655 Damage

Max Sp.Atk Rayquaza's Dragon Pulse used on Standard Groudon: 232 Damage

Max Attack Rayquaza's DD'ed Dragon Claw used on Standard Groudon: 212 Damage (It went down because Groudon has higher Defense than Sp.Def)

Max Sp.Atk Rayquaza's Dragon Pulse used on Standard Kyogre: 160 Damage

Max Attack Rayquaza's DD'ed Dragon Claw used on Standard Kyogre: 304 Damage

Yes, I KNOW Rayquaza gets BoltBeam, but neither are common on any standard Rayquaza sets, as far as I've seen. So yeah, it could KO them with it.

And this didn't even take Choice Items into efect...heh... All IV's were set to 31, and EV Points to 63 offensively, and 0 defensively, so obviously this is assuming we're playing with all sweepers.

~Chibi~