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Conversation Between Astinus and icomeanon6
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  1. Astinus
    March 12th, 2017 12:21 PM
    Astinus
    Remember when I said "I was just thinking this the other day while shopping. That if Tri had an English release, I could be buying Takeru Digimon merchandise again"?

    We are indeed getting merchandise.
  2. icomeanon6
    March 9th, 2017 6:46 PM
    icomeanon6
    Your mountain of words about Digimon got ninja'd by my mountain of words about Digimon, lol
  3. Astinus
    March 9th, 2017 6:30 PM
    Astinus
    The budget for tri. is definitely getting smaller. That's probably why the majority of the last part of this movie was evolution sequences. Not only did Piyomon evolve from Child to Ultimate, but then Patamon and Tentomon did the same. While Plotmon evolved to Tailmon. And speaking of Seraphimon's evolution being filler animation, I'm really disappointed in the fact that Seraphimon didn't even call out his attack during his revealing fight.

    There had to have been something else for Sora to have conflict with. Piyomon not liking her just because Sora stepped on her head was very weak reasoning. The other Digimon were perfectly fine with their human partners acting crazy around them (Tanemon thinking that Mimi would eat her; Takeru picking up Tokomon and talking about infections before saying that they're friends now). Sora, meanwhile, brought food and had a gentle approach towards Piyomon rather than trying to pretend as if everything was normal.

    I also really didn't like that Piyomon didn't like Sora for no good reason, but was curled up right next to Meiko at first introduction. I understand that Meiko didn't step on Piyomon, but that still doesn't explain why Piyomon cuddles with her. (I will also admit that Meiko has not impressed me in the slightest.)

    There also seemed to be some missed opportunities when the Chosen were all split apart from each other. There should have been more of the Digimon learning more about their partners from other Chosen, like how Agumon was asking Yamato about Taichi and learning about that part of him. (My bias will show here, but I also wanted them to do something more with Takeru being wounded at the Village of New Beginnings. I'll accept him being there alone, but...what was the point of him being hurt?)

    Between Gennai licking Sora's face and Gennai punching Sora with a cat, I was unable to enjoy the rest of the movie. That scene was really too out-of-place for a Digimon movie, and I wonder what the point of it was.

    Despite the faults of Loss, I'll still watch the rest of tri.! Considering what was revealed on part five's poster, things will get interesting (and hopefully better written)!
  4. icomeanon6
    March 9th, 2017 6:18 PM
    icomeanon6
    Episode 20:

    So my memory was a little fuzzy; this episode ends with the introduction of Magnamon and the actual fight is next episode. Thought it was all one episode for some reason. Anyway, this is still the best episode of 02 so far. There were two great touches with audio that stuck out to me. 1) the first shot of the episode is silent and it shows the Kaiser's attack on a town ramping up from a distance, after which they cut right into the thick of it. Much better use of silence than that weird silent-movie thing in the latest Tri movie (yes, I'm still miffed about that movie). 2) Ken's laughter superimposed for a moment with Devimon's before Ken hears him and it messes him up. It's a great way of reinforcing the story idea that Ken is treating metaphysical darkness like the video game he thinks it is, as if he's just playing a Lawful Evil character in D&D, while the reality is that the darkness in the Digital World is real, terrifying, and overwhelmingly greater than he is. Going along those lines, it's a great scene where Ken first realizes that the Digimon are alive when he remembers seeing the baby forms in the real world, and provides a much better plot reason for villain-doesn't-kill-heroes-when-he-has-the-chance than you expect from children's anime. Another nice thing about this episode is that there are no stock evolution sequences (I don't count Magnamon's as stock even if it technically gets used more than once), unlike the latest Tri movie where there a like a billion. What I'm saying is that 02 Episode 20 is better looking, sounding, and written than Tri Movie 4, which is just embarrassing.
  5. icomeanon6
    March 6th, 2017 4:23 PM
    icomeanon6
    You've just reminded me that I still need to watch the next 02 episode. >_> Kept meaning to, but I've been going after my current fic at a feverish pace by my standards. I'll get back on that this week.

    As for the latest Tri movie, I thought it sucked! Seriously, I was not happy with it at all. My favorite part was how we saw snippets of the adults' past as chosen children, though it was odd that they chose to show so much of it in silent-movie style. I mean, it's still the digital world, so that's kind of incongruous. I suspect they were running low on sound budget.

    As for the rest of the movie, one word: filler. I watched it with my RL friend, and when the credits came up for the first "episode" we were honestly bewildered that 20 minutes had passed because nothing happened. And the way Machinedramon/Mugendramon's attack sent them to random places in random combinations was so contrived, so obviously "we, the writers, have no idea how to get them split up but we're convinced it has to happen" that I felt embarrassed for them. The Sora and Biyomon/Piyomon plot was equally contrived. If there was a reason why Biyomon is super-suspicious of Sora while all the other Digimon warm up to their forgotten partners in a heartbeat, I missed it. It's a conflict that exists because there has to be a conflict, and they couldn't figure out how to have it make sense with the rest of the story so they gave up and tried to over-manufacture some emotions instead so that people won't notice. It's exactly the kind of contrived story I worry about writing myself, and when an amateur can look at your finished product and see a resemblance to their roughest drafts that's a bad sign.

    The technical side of things is impressing me less and less, too. I think their budget is shrinking, and it clearly wasn't huge to begin with. The pyrotechnics are particularly disappointing as the series progresses. There are too many attacks that are similarly-drawn, awkward energy things that are aesthetically blah. Phoenixmon's special attack in particular just looks like a version of Birdramon's that fills up more of the screen. I am saying I preferred the attack animations in a cheap TV anime from the year 1999. That shouldn't happen.

    The nadir of the movie was definitely Suddenly Rapey Gennai licking Sora's face. That was ick and I don't know what made them think it was a good idea. My friend almost turned it off, and now I'm wondering if I should have told him to go ahead.

    So that's what I thought! :D I'm still going to watch the rest of it. I've made it this far and I honestly want to see them recover. What'd you think?
  6. Astinus
    March 6th, 2017 3:38 PM
    Astinus
    A week late, but: What did you think of the recent tri. movie? I've seen it already, so feel free to talk spoilers.
  7. icomeanon6
    January 14th, 2017 8:33 PM
    icomeanon6
    Episode 19:

    This is the one with Devimon's whirlpool. Highlights include Takeru laughing at Ken's ridiculous getup and Jun's continued struggle to join Yamato on the camping trip. The bit with Jun actually begs comparison with the hitchhiking jokes in the movie, and I think it works better here, probably because the scenes are spread out along the episode and it dovetails nicely with how everyone straight-up leaves Daisuke out of the loop for the whole episode because he can't get to an enemy that's across an ocean by himself. On that note, the reasons they give for splitting the party are so weird in this episode. "Why are we leaving Daisuke back there?" "So we're not leaving the girls alone," and then they don't ask, "...So why aren't we waking up the girls?" Really shoddy logistics work here. And as good as the actual confrontation between Takeru and Ken is, I didn't quite buy the setup with Devimon as the trigger. Yes, episode 13 of Adventure was traumatic, but Takeru mentions "endless despair" when it took literally seconds for him to get Angemon's egg and learn that he'll come back. The scene is shot and scripted like it's about a character who dies permanently, and the audience knows that's not the case so the connection to what follows doesn't stick. Anyway, next episode is Magnamon, and my memory says it's easily the best part of the show so far if not entirely, so that should be fun.

    P.S. posted first chapter of Will Somebody Stop These Kids?, and I just realized this is the first pokemon chapter fic I've worked on since that dumb parody from years and years ago.
  8. Astinus
    January 12th, 2017 3:30 PM
    Astinus
    Long posts are fine. :) I'm just super happy that our profiles are slowly becoming the only dedicated place on the forum to talk about Digimon!

    Jeff Nimoy has stated multiple times that he wanted to dub the movies differently. He wanted the first two to be together. For the third movie, he didn't want to edit it down, but have it at its full length and released as a direct-to-video movie. But the higher-ups wanted the three movies shoved together into one movie to best fit the hour-and-a-half typical run time, leaving audiences with a terrible mess.

    This morning, I spent some time wondering how much of Adventure's story would have changed if Hikari was written out (as originally planned). It evolved into an AU idea where the basic change is Takeru is the missing Chosen Child that they have to chase down. I don't know how well that idea would work, but it was a fun way to pass today's work shift!
  9. icomeanon6
    January 10th, 2017 5:11 PM
    icomeanon6
    And now you get a really long post on your profile page. :)

    Movie 3:

    Jeeze louise, where do I even begin with this movie? The first two adjectives that came to mind were "weird" and "oppressive." "Weird" comes from the plot but also from the visuals. You can tell they wanted something similar to Hosoda's distinct style for the previous two movies, but when you don't have a genius like Hosoda actually in charge this can result in an uneven and bizarre look. Instead of having the fluid and lively quality of a Hosoda movie, this one's more like they filled the uncanny valley with wobbly jello. By "oppressive" I'm mostly referring to the music. I get that it's supposed to be the American West, but when it's overused to this degree it just makes everything drag. Combine that music with the intense but balky fight scenes and Chocomon's (Wendigomon's) weird noises and you have a movie that makes you scratch your head more than anything.

    As for the story, it is a MESS. There are a number of decent ideas, but they're stitched together with such little coherence. Road trip through the west? Good idea. Chocomon spiriting away Chosen Children and turning them younger? Good idea. And here's how they try to make it happen: "Hikari sent us an email that says 'Please save my brother,' who is in Japan. Let's fly to America where she is!" It would have just taken a few lines to show why Daisuke, Miyako, and Iori know the correct thing to do is go to America, but they don't even bother! The very next shot they're on the plane! And then bad editing combined with that freaking music kills any comedic timing they should have had with the "With Monster" hitchhiking sign gag and the "Made in Japan is really great!" guy. I remember those jokes being much funnier, but I think it's because my brain mercifully mis-remembered the editing to make them funnier. What's especially confusing is that they thought they had to make those parts so short when most of the movie is dragged out to death. The movie is at the same time too short and too long.

    And the resolution of it all is such horse hockey. "Hey we should evolve to Ultimate-level for the first time somehow and maybe something else will happen ow we lost but oh good something else happened." And why would blowing up the part of Cherubimon that's still Chocomon (Wendigomon) make Cherubimon turn momentarily good before death? Wouldn't it either A) not kill Cherubimon and make him even more evil or B) kill Cherubimon too but make him DIE evil? I'm fine with leaving a ton of wordy explanation out of the movie--that approach worked fine in the first movie--but it's another thing if you CAN'T explain it in-movie because it's nonsense. And they couldn't even be bothered to SHOW the original Chosen Children all better again at the end, we just have to take their word for it that they're fine now.

    For the first time I feel a LITTLE sorry for the people who made Digimon: The Movie. You have 2 excellent movies to work with but they're only one hour put together, but the only other movie you can add is a weird, oppressive fever dream that would drive the whole thing up to TWO hours, which is 30 more minutes than you can justify. I'm sure a lot of the staff were laughing about it and enjoying the chaos of slicing, dicing, and frankensteining that abomination together, but there must have been at least one person who couldn't stomach it and had to drink away the pain.

    The movie's not all bad. There's some good pyrotechnics, some of the imagery is freaky in a good way, and I like the settings. There's real, honest grit in the way they illustrate the underbelly of New York City and the dusty expanse of Colorado and South Dakota. I'm always interested to see how America is depicted in foreign media, and this movie provides an interesting perspective (Wallace's ludicrous Engrish aside. Wouldn't it have been cool if they'd hired someone with good English with awful Japanese?). And the backbone of the story is a good one, even if its execution is really poor and they had no idea how to resolve it with evolutions and a fight scene. And I like how Wallace calls Gummymon (Terriermon) and Chocomon (Wendigomon) by the names he first learned. If I seem harsher on this movie than I am on 02 itself, it's mostly because the first two Digimon movies were so great.

    Interesting trivia: this movie was originally shown in two parts, with another short Toei movie in between.
  10. icomeanon6
    January 9th, 2017 6:47 PM
    icomeanon6
    I hadn't thought of that! I think I watched the third movie subbed once years and years ago, and I recall not liking it nearly as much as the first two (Hosoda forever). I definitely know the basic story from the dubbed movie (and GUH I hate that movie. Horrible violence to one of my favorite filmmakers), but I'm fuzzy on the parts that were cut. I checked Wikipedia, and it seems the movie was released between episodes 14 and 15, so I'll watch it next because I generally put order-of-publication over in-universe-chronology for reading/watching order (speaking of Narnia, lol). Also, here's what Wikipedia has to say about the placement of the movie in 02's continuity: "Due to events, which contradict those of the series, this movie is considered non-canonical.[citation needed]" Oh, Digimon fans and their attempts to reconcile canon.

    Yeah, don't worry about Digimon Campaign, I read so little fanfiction myself so I'm never one to talk. Narnia's an old favorite of mine too. Weirdly enough it occupies a spot in my brain adjacent to Digimon Adventure because they were two things I got exposed to at a young age which both involved kids getting sent to a world that was both fantastical and spiritual (Angemon/Devimon, Aslan). In fact, if there's a work outside Digimon that was a big influence on Digimon Campaign it was Narnia. I won't get into too much, but the chief antagonist of the fic resembles a worshiper of Tash more than he does any particular Digimon villain.
  11. Astinus
    January 9th, 2017 5:29 PM
    Astinus
    I have to ask if you're planning on watching/have seen the original version of the third Digimon movie. I just saw the dubbed version last night, and it reminded me of just how much of a mess that movie was. I'm interested in your thoughts about the original version.

    Also, yay on starting your writing of that Pokemon fic! :D I'm ashamed to admit that I put aside my reading of Digimon Campaign (started to read the Narnia series after reading another series of books that I enjoyed), so I'll be happy to catch one of your longer works from the start.
  12. icomeanon6
    January 7th, 2017 8:20 PM
    icomeanon6
    Episode 18:

    I'm on the record as not liking the scenario where the kids go to the digital world and come back home the same day over and over again, so the "camping trip" gambit is a welcome change that makes the most of that scenario. I.e. it casts their real world lives as an obstacle to be overcome rather than a convenience. The stakes and level of danger still don't feel as high as I'd like, but it's a clever idea and I approve of anything that gets Yamato's dad involved in the story. The scene where Yamato and Takeru convince him to go along with it is pretty funny, as of course is the scene with Jun where Yamato ditches her in the most dickish way possible. The rest of the episode is about Miyako overcompensating for her trepidation and eventually coming to a deeper understanding with Hawkmon. They touched on the trepidation aspect of Miyako's character in episode 10, but it's handled much better here because the shifts happen for more of a reason and because it results in some amusing bits and an action scene that could have been pretty good if the animation weren't butt. Fortunately they're hinting at Chimeramon (and spoiling him in the next-ep preview as the Japanese are wont to do), meaning the best action scenes so far are coming soon if I'm remembering right.

    P.S. started writing Will Somebody Stop These Kids?, which is from the plot bunny I put up a little while ago. I'm excited! :D
  13. Astinus
    December 22nd, 2016 4:58 PM
    Astinus
    If you look at the general outline for any Digimon season, you can see just how lopsided Zero Two's plot is compared to others. As you said with Adventure, the Chosen had already defeated Devimon and were almost to Etemon's defeat. (I've been listening to several retrospective Digimon podcasts, so Adventure's plot is fresh in my mind, despite not watching it in years.) It's the same for the other seasons.

    Tamers: In the Deva arc, and Juggernaut had been used
    Frontier: All the beast spirits had been found, and Orphanimon summons the Chosen to the Rose Morning Star
    Savers: The three main characters are in the Digital World, preparing to fight Merukimon

    Compare those to Zero Two, where the Kaiser isn't defeated for another four episodes (outlasting the previous season's first villain by eight episodes), and then right after that is the rush of several different plot points and enemies. Never mind the interruption during the Kaiser arc with Dagomon and the dark world.

    I just think a lot of how the Kaiser arc was plotted out and where it could have been condensed. With my rewrite (still stuck on chapter 2, by the way), I cut the Kaiser arc down from 21 episodes to 12 chapters, equivalent to an episode per chapter.

    It's also strange how they keep driving home the Ishida-Takaishi brothers' dynamic. It even came up again in tri, when Meiko talked to Takeru in the bath house. But the writers could have shared different information related to the plot of tri rather than the relationship between two characters that everyone in the audience knows already.

    The original version of the scene between Tailmon and Wizarmon actually did make me tear up, especially at the end there. I really hope there's some continuation to that character dynamic in tri, especially since it's such a large part of Tailmon's character and now she's been rebooted.

    Thanks for the birthday wishes! :D
  14. icomeanon6
    December 20th, 2016 8:02 PM
    icomeanon6
    I see you had a birthday sorta recently, so happy belated birthday!

    Episode 17:

    This episode features the triumphant return of Yamato's dad and the TV station crew, definitely some of my favorite adult characters from Adventure. These poor guys can't catch a break. I love how the guy in the bandana's angst over the ghost has as much to do with his show's encroaching deadline as with actual fear of the ghost. That fun stuff aside, the only important element in this episode is Wizarmon's cryptic hint, which sets up that there will be villains after Ken, that Ken will probably become a good guy (maybe this is less obvious if you haven't seen the show), and something to do with kindness and "the golden light" (Ken's Crest and Magnamon's digimental). Main character-wise this episode does little beyond re-establishing that Yamato and Takeru are close and reminding the viewers of their parents' situation. I did like the shot immediately after when Wizarmon and Tailmon try to touch hands and can't. The attempted touch is pretty standard for seeing-a-dead-friend-again scenes, but I thought the look of disappointment and resignation on Wizarmon's face as he floats away elevated it a bit. I always thought they managed to do a lot with a little when it came to Wizarmon's expressions in Adventure and this episode.

    Btw, here's a comparison to show how padded the story is in 02 vs. Adventure. By this point in 02 they still haven't confronted the Kaiser all that directly, and by this point in Adventure they had already defeated Devimon and were halfway through the Etemon episodes.
  15. icomeanon6
    December 7th, 2016 6:01 PM
    icomeanon6
    Episode 16:

    This is the one where Iori gets his Digimental of Sincerity (Reliability in the dub, and "Faithfulness" in the subs I'm using, but I'll be calling it Sincerity). There are a few things I like here, for example when they're trying to get Iori to pick up the Digimental and he gives a bunch of other excuses first before finally admitting to them (and himself!) that he doesn't think he deserves it because he just told a lie. Also, it's funny how Daisuke and V-mon are the only ones who don't catch on to the rigged game of straws. One thing I think could have been handled better is Jou's lesson for Iori about good/bad lies. It seemed sort of hand-wavy, like "Eh, sometimes lying's okay," where I think the more truthful lesson is that the essence of a "lie" has more to do with malicious intent than literal correctness. I think we need different words to distinguish "malicous lies," "benevolent oversimplifications," "telling a factual truth with malicious intent to deceive," etc. I may be asking too much from a fifteen-second scene in a kids' show, though. Crest fits Iori perfectly, definitely a better justification offered than with Friendship and Purity. That aside, Submarimon's special attacks look like the weakest nonsense ever. Shooting air and water while underwater, seriously?

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