Conversation Between BettyNewbie and Cerberus87
Showing Visitor Messages 16 to 30 of 379
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July 24th, 2015 4:02 PMBettyNewbieI disagree because HMs add to the element of "exploration" i.e. you have to go out and find them. In GSC for example the Waterfall HM was hidden in the Ice Cave and, if you weren't much of an explorer you'd miss it and not be able to reach the Victory Road.Yes, because nothing says "exploration" like a lab aide giving you Flash for catching 10 Pokémon or getting Strength by talking to a sailor in a restaurant.
The motivation to go to the next town and get the next badge should be enough to want you to explore. Plus, things like Legendaries and plot exist.
It would be viable only with a full Pokédex IMO.You don't get it, though. A game where you play as a Gym Leader or E4 Member would have a completely different playstyle than the standard Main Series formula. It would be more story-based and not revolve around the get 8 badges/beat Evil Team/become Champion formula.
But the biggest "allure" of Pokémon is that it allows you a great degree of freedom. Granted, we never really had as much freedom as in 1st gen since in RBY the available Pokémon were all that existed at the time, but in most games there's a "reasonable" amount of freedom.
I like balanced dexes but it isn't a disaster if you can't make a team of six Fire Pokémon for example since you aren't "supposed" to. People mock DP for only having Ponyta, but looking at its stats, Ponyta is a damn useful Pokémon. It was not designed to be available early, and in DP you can get it as low as L6 I think, and it just mauls everything else at that stage. Still, another option wouldn't hurt. 4th gen was terrible for Fire lovers.
You see, this reaction is why GF is so conservative about breaking the formula. Not pointing fingers at you or anything, but far too many people look at the games solely through a competitive battling lens and riot if a game doesn't let them build their "perfect team" for beating other people with or have the "metagame" as an end goal. This is why a certain section of the fandom automatically dismisses any and all spinoffs, regardless of whether or not the games actually deserve it. -
July 24th, 2015 10:45 AMCerberus87I think the water HMs should all be things that any fully-evolved Water type should automatically be able to do. Same goes for Fly and fully-evolved Flying types (save for a few special cases like Butterfree and Dodrio). In fact, that would actually be more realistic, anyways. Squirtles and Pidgeys should not be able to transport people around.I disagree because HMs add to the element of "exploration" i.e. you have to go out and find them. In GSC for example the Waterfall HM was hidden in the Ice Cave and, if you weren't much of an explorer you'd miss it and not be able to reach the Victory Road.
Speaking of which, in HGSS the n00b nanny made you not be able to leave the cave without getting it...
But, that would be the point!It would be viable only with a full Pokédex IMO.
(Plus, don't you want to be the games' first Dark Gym Leader?
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But the biggest "allure" of Pokémon is that it allows you a great degree of freedom. Granted, we never really had as much freedom as in 1st gen since in RBY the available Pokémon were all that existed at the time, but in most games there's a "reasonable" amount of freedom.
I like balanced dexes but it isn't a disaster if you can't make a team of six Fire Pokémon for example since you aren't "supposed" to. People mock DP for only having Ponyta, but looking at its stats, Ponyta is a damn useful Pokémon. It was not designed to be available early, and in DP you can get it as low as L6 I think, and it just mauls everything else at that stage. Still, another option wouldn't hurt. 4th gen was terrible for Fire lovers. :( -
July 23rd, 2015 6:47 PMBettyNewbieMy idea was to turn them into purely field moves. Of course, Surf and Waterfall would need replacements in the battle front, but turning them into exclusively field moves would allow us to use our competitive Pokémon as workers, like in the anime, and also eliminate HM Slaves.I think the water HMs should all be things that any fully-evolved Water type should automatically be able to do. Same goes for Fly and fully-evolved Flying types (save for a few special cases like Butterfree and Dodrio). In fact, that would actually be more realistic, anyways. Squirtles and Pidgeys should not be able to transport people around.
As long as they don't limit us to a certain type...But, that would be the point! :P
(Plus, don't you want to be the games' first Dark Gym Leader? ;)) -
July 23rd, 2015 1:17 PMCerberus87HMs are the devil, no question. Surf, Waterfall (Gen 4-onwards), and to a lesser extent, Fly, aren't bad moves, but the rest are just worthless. Shouldn't a Lapras automatically know how to swim, or a Pidgeot know how to fly, anyways?My idea was to turn them into purely field moves. Of course, Surf and Waterfall would need replacements in the battle front, but turning them into exclusively field moves would allow us to use our competitive Pokémon as workers, like in the anime, and also eliminate HM Slaves.
I'd like to see a game where you play as a Gym Leader or E4 member, something more story-based.As long as they don't limit us to a certain type... -
July 21st, 2015 7:53 PMBettyNewbieWe just keep getting into these little spats, don't we? ;)
I'd like it if you had a choice between being a trainer or a coordinator. Contests are boring because they're side quests.Interesting idea. I do agree that many fans look down upon contests simply because the games, themselves, de-prioritize them. It was mostly the anime that gave them more importance by treating May and Dawn's goals as equivalent to Ash's.
Besides, different Pokémon could shine in contests.
I also would get rid of HMs, my hate of which you probably know well, and maybe make a game in which the goal wasn't to beat the league and become Pokémon master. In XY they even ran out of names to call the badges...HMs are the devil, no question. Surf, Waterfall (Gen 4-onwards), and to a lesser extent, Fly, aren't bad moves, but the rest are just worthless. Shouldn't a Lapras automatically know how to swim, or a Pidgeot know how to fly, anyways?
LOL on the XY badges. I especially love how the badge for the first Fairy gym ever is... Fairy Badge. Like, was "Pixie Badge" too original and unexpected?
I'd like to see a game where you play as a Gym Leader or E4 member, something more story-based. -
July 21st, 2015 7:22 PMCerberus87You just took the words out of my mouth. I was going to send you a message complaining that you seem to like me just for the arguments. :(
I'd like it if you had a choice between being a trainer or a coordinator. Contests are boring because they're side quests. :P Besides, different Pokémon could shine in contests.
I also would get rid of HMs, my hate of which you probably know well, and maybe make a game in which the goal wasn't to beat the league and become Pokémon master. In XY they even ran out of names to call the badges... {XD}
I think the core fanbase is too attached to these staples, which is why GF doesn't change them and lets other studios try different ideas (like in Mystery Dungeon and Ranger series). -
July 21st, 2015 7:01 PMBettyNewbieI'm sorry if it seems like I'm excessively negative, but you know how I can be. ;)
Let's turn it around. What are some things YOU would change about the franchise? Be honest, and it can be related to any aspect of Pokémon, gameplay-wise or storywise. -
July 21st, 2015 6:55 PMCerberus87I don't understand your arguments. You keep repeating them and I feel I got them covered in the earlier messages, so I just won't bother replying again... :(
Ok, I'll do it again.
But, they're Poison types, not Ghost types. Agatha is supposed to be a Ghost specialist.It was "better" for Agatha to be a Ghost specialist despite only having access to Gengar and its preevos because the other options were junk. Normal is the most boring type, Flying had enough options but horrible overlapping (because there's no difference to face a Fearow and a Dodrio for example), and Bug, though diverse, didn't even have STAB moves worth mentioning, not to mention it'd be a straight sweep for Charizard.
Gen 1's non-fossil rocks, anyone? So what, they live in caves, doesn't the Rock typing already cover that? And, STAB on Earthquake isn't really worth getting one-shotted by Absorb and Water Gun.Rhydon's "primary" type is Ground. It's only Rock-type because it has a rugged armor. Golem is probably Ground-type because it's the closest to a rock there is, and rock and earth are usually always in the same place in nature.
Water/Ice is also redundant yet you consider Ice a "true" element... {XD}
If that was what the Ground type was supposed to be, then it would've been the Earth type.That's just a naming issue. Same with Flying representing wind powers as well as avian moves.
Then why is it a separate type, as it is in MOST RPGS?This doesn't mean it's an element. "Rock" isn't an element either, it's just earth in a different form. It was probably better to name the Ground-type "ground" than "earth" because of that.
Which, in turn, made the type completely boring and utilitarian and predictable. So much for Dragons being "mythical" and "fantastic".LOL that's really bad... {XD} Aren't the Dragon Ubers "mythical" nor "fantastic" enough? Or they don't count just because they can't be played in OU?

B-I-N-G-Psyducking-O. Staraptor is just another early Normal bird, like Pidgeot and Fearow. Luxray is just another Electric mammal, like Raichu and Manectric. Flygon is just another offense-oriented non-elemental Dragon, like Salamence and Garchomp.The reason people even care about Talonflame is Gale Wings, not its typing. I don't think Fire/Flying is particularly exciting either since it's a configuration that exists since 1st gen and with more interesting Pokémon representing it, including two legendaries. It's ironic that you say Talonflame is "exciting" when we already had two mythical birds from the same type before Talonflame was created.
Don't you get it? People are psyducking TIRED of seeing the same typings and concepts being repeated OVER AND OVER again. Do you know how many people jumped for joy over Talonflame being Fire/Flying? FINALLY, an early Bird that wasn't some generic Normal type!
I don't have an issue with same typing if the Pokémon have different stats, moves, etc. Mega Pidgeot was a huge boost to Pidgeot because it finally set Pidgeot apart from the other early birds as the strong special attacker of the bunch, and they didn't even need to change its type, they just corrected the paradox that was a bird with wind powers (Special) having stronger Attack than Sp.Atk., which started in 4th gen when Gust became Special. -
July 21st, 2015 6:08 PMBettyNewbieGolbat and Arbok aren't supposed to be the strongest Pokémon in Agatha's team, they're stepping stones. It's ok for them to be weaker than Gengar.But, they're Poison types, not Ghost types. Agatha is supposed to be a Ghost specialist.
I want you to make me a list of which Ground-type Pokémon have the type as "filler" and why, and I'll explain to you why they're Ground-type.Gen 1's non-fossil rocks, anyone? So what, they live in caves, doesn't the Rock typing already cover that? And, STAB on Earthquake isn't really worth getting one-shotted by Absorb and Water Gun.
I find it ludicrous that you don't consider "earth" as an element, but still.If that was what the Ground type was supposed to be, then it would've been the Earth type.
Ice isn't an element, it's a different stage of water.Then why is it a separate type, as it is in MOST RPGS?
You must realize that Dragon used to be the strongest type by far. Mating it to strong types requires some sort of balance, except when the Pokémon in question are Ubers.Which, in turn, made the type completely boring and utilitarian and predictable. So much for Dragons being "mythical" and "fantastic."
Still, Staraptor is just a ****ing bird.B-I-N-G-Psyducking-O. Staraptor is just another early Normal bird, like Pidgeot and Fearow. Luxray is just another Electric mammal, like Raichu and Manectric. Flygon is just another offense-oriented non-elemental Dragon, like Salamence and Garchomp.
Don't you get it? People are psyducking TIRED of seeing the same typings and concepts being repeated OVER AND OVER again. Do you know how many people jumped for joy over Talonflame being Fire/Flying? FINALLY, an early Bird that wasn't some generic Normal type! -
July 21st, 2015 3:17 PMCerberus87Anyone who didn't use Psychic and Ice moves in RBY deserved to be crushed by muk like Arbok and Dragonair.You don't seem to understand the concept of "difficulty scaling". Golbat and Arbok aren't supposed to be the strongest Pokémon in Agatha's team, they're stepping stones. It's ok for them to be weaker than Gengar. The E4 isn't supposed to be four Cynthias.

All, I can say is that I am SO glad you're not making the games. Based on that standard, a team of 6 dupes would be considered "awesome." Oh, yeah, I know, "they all have different moves," uh-huh.
Uh, yeah, no. You're reading WAY too much into the two types.I'm not.
Ground = dirt. It's a type you slap onto Pokémon who dig holes/live in caves and don't have another type that fits them better. And, Flying = wings. It's a type you slap onto winged Pokémon who, again, have no other type that fits them better (like Beedrill and Venomoth).I want you to make me a list of which Ground-type Pokémon have the type as "filler" and why, and I'll explain to you why they're Ground-type.
I find it ludicrous that you don't consider "earth" as an element, but still.
Now, Water, Fire, Electric, Ice, etc... THOSE are elements. And, Dragon is sorely lacking in those outside of Legendaries.Ice isn't an element, it's a different stage of water.
You must realize that Dragon used to be the strongest type by far. Mating it to strong types requires some sort of balance, except when the Pokémon in question are Ubers.
And no, don't bring Black Kyurem, because the big reason it's OU and not Uber is its movepool, not its typing.
Because, GAWD forbid people want to see their favorite Pokémon be special and unique and not just generic monotypes.That's a terrible argument IMO. Next thing you'll say is Nidoran(m) or Seaking need to be Flying-type because they learn Peck.
Staraptor is perfectly fine as a Normal/Flying type. Fighting gives it STAB on Close Combat and neutrality to Rock, but Flying weakness. Still, Staraptor is just a psyducking bird. Even Farfetch'd resembles the Fighting-type stereotype more than Staraptor, since it fights with a weapon at least. Luxray would be even worse as Electric/Dark, since it would die to Fighting and Bug-types while gaining a not so important immunity. Not to mention Crunch and dark color don't merit a Pokémon being Dark-type by themselves. Luxray isn't nocturnal, much less mischievous.
Well, apparently, I have to with someone who seems to love the Status Quo so much.No, I just understand these particular design choices. The people who say Luxray needs to be Electric/Dark are the same ones who don't understand why Water and Poison are neutral to each other.
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July 20th, 2015 8:37 PMBettyNewbieSydney from RSE has a great team, according to your tastes, but vulnerable to any Pokémon with a Fighting move. Aaron in Platinum loses badly to Fire moves, and the only exception in his team happens to not follow your rule of "great type distribution", as Drapion starts as Bug and becomes Dark upon evolution. Three of the Unova E4, which according to you is so amazing, can be trivialized with Scrafty.Anyone who didn't use Psychic and Ice moves in RBY deserved to be crushed by muk like Arbok and Dragonair.
Diversity and type matching are useless if there's no challenge. Agatha and Lance can be excused in RBY because the Pokédex was small, but, if you didn't have a Psychic or an Ice move, you'd be in for a rude awakening against them, especially Lance. Lorelei, which has the "best" E4 team in RBY, has four Pokémon vulnerable to Electric attacks, and Jynx can be taken down with Fire-type Pokémon which were pretty popular back then.
If you're dealing with monotype teams, you'd be hard-pressed to find one without a serious weakness to a certain move, with "maybe" the exception of Wallace in Emerald, and only because Water is the most varied type.
All, I can say is that I am SO glad you're not making the games. Based on that standard, a team of 6 dupes would be considered "awesome." Oh, yeah, I know, "they all have different moves," uh-huh.
Ground isn't filler type, it's an element. The vast majority of Ground-type Pokémon, appropriately, live near mountains, volcanoes, swamps and deserts. And the only Pokémon Flying is a filler type in is Gyarados. I seriously don't recall a Pokémon that's Flying-type and can't fly other than Gyarados. Even Mantine can, to some extent; it doesn't learn the "move" Fly but it can glide over water. Dodrio and Delibird can't "fly" but learn Fly. Scyther can fly a limited amount, too, and learns Flying-type moves. Jumpluff glides and is almost lighter than air. I think even Tropius is capable of flight...Uh, yeah, no. You're reading WAY too much into the two types.
Flying takes the role of the wind element, which is why Tornadus is pure Flying. Fan Rotom doesn't fly but it represents the "wind" element like Tornadus so it gets to be Flying-type, too
Either way, the idea Flying is a "filler" type is laughable. There are a few Pokémon which can fly but aren't Flying-types, but they're either Levitators (so they're immune to Ground anyway) or are winged bugs like Beedrill. Like Flygon, they're a case of there not being room for three types, and, in Beedrill and Dustox's case, make them more distinct from their Bug/Flying counterparts.
If we had it your way, Flygon would've been a boring Bug/Flying Pokémon, actually.
Ground = dirt. It's a type you slap onto Pokémon who dig holes/live in caves and don't have another type that fits them better. And, Flying = wings. It's a type you slap onto winged Pokémon who, again, have no other type that fits them better (like Beedrill and Venomoth).
Now, Water, Fire, Electric, Ice, etc... THOSE are elements. And, Dragon is sorely lacking in those outside of Legendaries.
There's already a Fighting/Flying Pokémon, it's called Hawlucha and has a bigger case for being Fighting-type than Staraptor. Staraptor is just a bird of prey, not unlike Pidgeot. Braviary has a bigger case for Flying-type than Staraptor, as Braviary are depicted as "warriors from the sky" in flavor text, and also learn Superpower. Yet Braviary is Normal-type and there's nothing wrong with that since what makes it overshadowed is its poor Speed anyway.Because, GAWD forbid people want to see their favorite Pokémon be special and unique and not just generic monotypes.
As for Luxray, it has nothing that relates it to the Dark-type. Zero, zilch, nada. It is neither nocturnal nor "evil". And the only Dark-type move it learns is Crunch, which a gazillion other similar mammal-like Pokémon also learn.
Sorry for being aggressive, but you really push the envelope sometimes.Well, apparently, I have to with someone who seems to love the Status Quo so much.
I can't help but feel you want me to be like that, actually.
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July 20th, 2015 6:00 PMCerberus87Sorry for being aggressive, but you really push the envelope sometimes. ;)
I can't help but feel you want me to be like that, actually. -
July 20th, 2015 5:14 PMCerberus87Just about anything with Psychic or even Earthquake could solo Agatha. How is that NOT awful?Sydney from RSE has a great team, according to your tastes, but vulnerable to any Pokémon with a Fighting move. Aaron in Platinum loses badly to Fire moves, and the only exception in his team happens to not follow your rule of "great type distribution", as Drapion starts as Bug and becomes Dark upon evolution. Three of the Unova E4, which according to you is so amazing, can be trivialized with Scrafty.
Diversity and type matching are useless if there's no challenge. Agatha and Lance can be excused in RBY because the Pokédex was small, but, if you didn't have a Psychic or an Ice move, you'd be in for a rude awakening against them, especially Lance. Lorelei, which has the "best" E4 team in RBY, has four Pokémon vulnerable to Electric attacks, and Jynx can be taken down with Fire-type Pokémon which were pretty popular back then.
If you're dealing with monotype teams, you'd be hard-pressed to find one without a serious weakness to a certain move, with "maybe" the exception of Wallace in Emerald, and only because Water is the most varied type.
And, to think that she actually MOCKED Prof. Oak for being a "failed" trainer, when last I checked, he wasn't the one using dupe Gengars and a bunch of mukty Poison types! What kind of E4 member uses worthless Rocket Grunt Pokémon (Golbat and Arbok) and can even expect to be taken seriously?She never said Oak was a failed trainer. She mocked him because he preferred to continue his research instead of battling, which may have happened for various reasons. Oak's team isn't even canon anyways because it's not "officially" in the game.
Lorelei used junky Dewgong and Cloyster, too.
And, what is an antilion? A BUG!Ground isn't filler type, it's an element. The vast majority of Ground-type Pokémon, appropriately, live near mountains, volcanoes, swamps and deserts. And the only Pokémon Flying is a filler type in is Gyarados. I seriously don't recall a Pokémon that's Flying-type and can't fly other than Gyarados. Even Mantine can, to some extent; it doesn't learn the "move" Fly but it can glide over water. Dodrio and Delibird can't "fly" but learn Fly. Scyther can fly a limited amount, too, and learns Flying-type moves. Jumpluff glides and is almost lighter than air. I think even Tropius is capable of flight...
Without the Bug typing, Flygon is nothing more than a land-dwelling dragon. Again, Ground is a generic filler type for the most part, not unlike Flying.
Flying takes the role of the wind element, which is why Tornadus is pure Flying. Fan Rotom doesn't fly but it represents the "wind" element like Tornadus so it gets to be Flying-type, too
Either way, the idea Flying is a "filler" type is laughable. There are a few Pokémon which can fly but aren't Flying-types, but they're either Levitators (so they're immune to Ground anyway) or are winged bugs like Beedrill. Like Flygon, they're a case of there not being room for three types, and, in Beedrill and Dustox's case, make them more distinct from their Bug/Flying counterparts.
If we had it your way, Flygon would've been a boring Bug/Flying Pokémon, actually.
Because people want to see some more type diversity and want these Pokémon to be more special than they are? Without the Bug type, Flygon is just another generic land dragon. Without the Fighting type, Staraptor is just another generic Normal bird. Without the Dark type, Luxray is just another generic Electric mammal.There's already a Fighting/Flying Pokémon, it's called Hawlucha and has a bigger case for being Fighting-type than Staraptor. Staraptor is just a bird of prey, not unlike Pidgeot. Braviary has a bigger case for Flying-type than Staraptor, as Braviary are depicted as "warriors from the sky" in flavor text, and also learn Superpower. Yet Braviary is Normal-type and there's nothing wrong with that since what makes it overshadowed is its poor Speed anyway.
As for Luxray, it has nothing that relates it to the Dark-type. Zero, zilch, nada. It is neither nocturnal nor "evil". And the only Dark-type move it learns is Crunch, which a gazillion other similar mammal-like Pokémon also learn.
The one Pokémon I'd agree that would be a whole lot better and makes sense that it could have its type changed is Noctowl to Psychic/Flying, but it wouldn't move from the bottom with that, since the only benefit would be STAB Psychic anyway. -
July 19th, 2015 7:43 PMBettyNewbieYou can probably solo Lance's team with something like Starmie, but it still requires more than one move to beat them all.Not really. All but Gyarados are weak to Ice Beam. One Pokémon, big whoop.
Agatha being mono-Poison is vulnerable to Alakazam, I guess, but that's more because GF stupidly decided to make Gengar a Poison-type AND give it zero moves to counter Alakazam AND make a buggy type chart AND finally make Gengar slower than Alakazam. Still, against anything else Agatha's ghosts are strongJust about anything with Psychic or even Earthquake could solo Agatha. How is that NOT awful?
And, to think that she actually MOCKED Prof. Oak for being a "failed" trainer, when last I checked, he wasn't the one using dupe Gengars and a bunch of mukty Poison types! What kind of E4 member uses worthless Rocket Grunt Pokémon (Golbat and Arbok) and can even expect to be taken seriously?
Why is it "worse" storywise? Flygon is an antlion. It's Dragon because it resembles a dragonfly, and Ground because antlions are common in sandy environments. Flygon has a bad 4x Ice weakness, but if it was Bug-type it would be weak to Flying and Rock which are very strong attacking types.And, what is an antilion? A BUG!
Without the Bug typing, Flygon is nothing more than a land-dwelling dragon. Again, Ground is a generic filler type for the most part, not unlike Flying.
It does learn a lot of Bug-type moves now, but saying that it needs to be Bug-type because of that is like saying Staraptor needs to be Fighting-type because it learns Close Combat, or Luxray needs to be Dark-type because it's dark blue and learns Crunch. Gyarados isn't Dragon-type and there's a good explanation for it, too.Because people want to see some more type diversity and want these Pokémon to be more special than they are? Without the Bug type, Flygon is just another generic land dragon. Without the Fighting type, Staraptor is just another generic Normal bird. Without the Dark type, Luxray is just another generic Electric mammal. -
July 19th, 2015 3:22 PMCerberus87No a doesn't, but a game has serious issues if the NPC teams aren't up to snuff. When Elite Four members have to use Dupes and NFEs to fill space, that's a pretty big problem. People (rightfully) bash Glacia for having an awful team, but Lance and Agatha aren't any better. If anything, they're even worse, since even Glacia, at least, still had the "correct" monotype. She wasn't a "Dragon" Master with a mono-Flying team or a "Ghost" Master with a mono-Poison team.But see, Glacia is still worse since you can solo her whole team with Blaziken. You can probably solo Lance's team with something like Starmie, but it still requires more than one move to beat them all. Agatha being mono-Poison is vulnerable to Alakazam, I guess, but that's more because GF stupidly decided to make Gengar a Poison-type AND give it zero moves to counter Alakazam AND make a buggy type chart AND finally make Gengar slower than Alakazam. Still, against anything else Agatha's ghosts are strong, while I can't say the same of Glacia's Glalies and Sealeos.
Yes, you could argue that Dragon/Ground has better competitive value, but storywise, it's far worse. Ground is just a generic filler type, akin to Flying, while Bug would make it something other than "just a dragon." Too many (non-Legendary) dragons in Pokémon are just plain old dragons without any other special characteristics.Why is it "worse" storywise? Flygon is an antlion. It's Dragon because it resembles a dragonfly, and Ground because antlions are common in sandy environments. Flygon has a bad 4x Ice weakness, but if it was Bug-type it would be weak to Flying and Rock which are very strong attacking types.
It does learn a lot of Bug-type moves now, but saying that it needs to be Bug-type because of that is like saying Staraptor needs to be Fighting-type because it learns Close Combat, or Luxray needs to be Dark-type because it's dark blue and learns Crunch. Gyarados isn't Dragon-type and there's a good explanation for it, too.

