Conversation Between Somewhere_ and gimmepie
931 to 945 of 998
  1. gimmepie
    February 1st, 2016 7:25 PM
    gimmepie
    Well we're definitely not going to agree on economics lmao
    Our viewpoints are petty much completely opposing.

    What about war?
  2. Somewhere_
    February 1st, 2016 7:10 PM
    Somewhere_
    Government creates monopolies. There is no example of a monopoly without government intervention. Free markets lead to adding value to the currency as productivity increases and a gold standard is set with competing currencies.

    Class divide is caused by government regulation: thousands upon thousands of regulations hurt small businesses and the poor, but not big corporations (being funded by the government) and even just large businesses. The Federal Reserve prints and prints and prints without a gold standard (which Clinton finally destroyed), causing the rich to get richer, and the poorer to get poorer. The rich use welfare programs to make themselves gain power.

    Ill admit I have not been in a situation where I have needed medical care I couldn't afford (not to mention, I have been really healthy, luckily). And in a system where people can do what they want with their property, these people will be treated better, faster, and cheaper without massive theft! My heart goes out to these people (which is why I do so many charity stuff), and I truly care about them! Tell me when you read the essay.

    Again, the upper class cannot take advantage of the lower classes. These upper classes are literally controlled by consumers! Socialism is just one giant monopoly and a terrible economics system that hurt the people they try to help. Just look at Scandinavia (not Socialist, but certain socialist policies are literally destroying them).

    Of course! Thats just the fun of it lol. xD Im going to read "Economics in One Lesson" soon, and apparently its really good for learning economics in just a few hours. Maybe then we can get somewhere. The reason why I am fighting so hard for free markets is for two reasons: the utilitarian aspects (its far superior) and the morals. Only a free market can have true freedom without violence. Even crime can be reduced.

    Maybe we should also talk about something we agree on? Like war maybe?
  3. gimmepie
    February 1st, 2016 5:53 PM
    gimmepie
    Again, nope. Government regulation is the only thing preventing monopolies and unfair pricing on necessities. You might say it's completely fair for people to charge anything they want for their products, but that only tells me you've never lived in a situation where you've needed medical care you can't afford. If you think prices are high with government intervention, you should see what things become if ever we have this "free market" you desire. Sure people will want to undercut each other to take business, but that's not going to be enough to compensate.

    Once again, you're deluded about free markets. In a free market there is a huge class divide. If you think there's a divide between rich and poor now, see what happens when the rich don't have limits anymore. Your free market favours the rich and it always will.

    They both have the same flaws in that they're idealogical systems of government that rely on human beings being good people. Ideology has no place in government, practicality should be everything. In true communism/socialism the government is too liable to take advantage of the system for their own benefit whilst in a true free market the upper class will take advantage of the lower because of the lack of governance.

    You know damn well we'll just debate this in circles without either of us finding any degree of success lol
  4. Somewhere_
    February 1st, 2016 1:41 PM
    Somewhere_
    And that is exactly why government can't be successful- its too greedy. Its the government that makes healthcare expensive in the first place. And there is nothing wrong with people charging whatever for their labor or product. Its their's and they can do whatever they want with it, but for them to be successful, they will have to lower the prices to competitive levels. You think everyone who sells stuff are so greedy, but its really not a reality (greed is what is helping everyone in the economy). These high prices are the result of government intervention. Only government can create and sustain monopolies.

    And you are forced to go to jail, and if you resist, you are injured. Therefore, taxation is theft because it is involuntarily taking your money. And it benefiting people is debatable because government is what causes wars, massive debt, ruining economies- the benefits are minimal.

    How can a free market be ineffective for the same reasons communism/socialism are? They are vastly different. in a truly free market, everyone is richer. It is the corporatist or Keynesian economics that cause class divides.
  5. gimmepie
    January 31st, 2016 11:38 PM
    gimmepie
    Once again I'm reminding you that recorded history might not include anarchist society but at some stage biologically we did. Forming a society with a governing body was a behavioural adaption and a part of the reason humans succeeded as a species.

    My friend, you're too idealistic. You think far too highly of humans. In a truly free market healthcare would be not only not free, but due to its necessity people could get away with charging whatever they wanted for it - and they would because humans are above all else greedy. Doctors need to provide their families with food too. That's why bulk-billing and healthcare schemes are a thing in part.

    No, and nobody in my country nor in yours is held at gunpoint over tax. Not paying taxes might earn you jail time, and it should. Every person contributes to tax and every person benefits as a result. It's the person who doesn't pay tax and expects the government to survive off of everyone else that's the criminal.

    You vastly overestimate the amount of control the government has over the people. If I choose to go out for a night, I don't have to fill a bunch of forms. I don't need to seek government permission to spend money on luxuries. So long as my actions aren't causing harm to people or the state I can more or less do as I please. Part of what earns me that right is that I pay the taxes that help keep society afloat.

    A totally free market is one that would very quickly result in class-divides and a collapsing economy. If communism/socialism is ineffective ideology, anarchy or minarchy are just as ineffective for the exact same reasons.
  6. Somewhere_
    January 31st, 2016 6:48 AM
    Somewhere_
    well im not an anarchist, and this is where I agree with you. The only way anarchism can work is an educated mass of people who do not recognize the authority of the state. biologically and socially, people have never been in an anarchist society, so how can we expect people to like the idea?

    in a truly free market, that healthcare would be free or much cheaper. Doctors, before HMO's and government-run healthcare, would provide free care for the poor. If all government subsidies ended, do you think people would suddenly want to help these people?

    You are saying that you should hold people at gunpoint to pay for your healthcare? That is wrong.

    that might make you understand! if you have time, i would recommend it (of course, cause i wrote it)! xD

    Taxation is theft. It does not matter where the money goes (i recognize that it is theft, but I believe it is necessary). Taxation is slavery.

    You are saying that government needs to be larger and control our lives because there are more of us? That isn't freedom or for the people- that is against them. Government for the great majority of things it does is inefficient, overbearing, or ineffective. The free market can provide them all cheaper and better without force, but with voluntary trade.
  7. gimmepie
    January 30th, 2016 11:46 PM
    gimmepie
    Look at it from a biological standpoint instead of a political. We developed rules as a behavioural adaption because we needed them for society to function. Obviously we didn't jump straight to democracy, but that's the general gist.

    Sorry to say it mate, but your understanding of welfare/healthcare is backwards. Let's look at it using myself as an example. In a true free market, medical care is totally privatised and welfare payments don't exist. I've been sick for nearly for months now and nobody knows what is wrong with me. I've been unable to work because of my illness, so I can't afford private medical care. No worries though, I can just work whilst sick right? No.

    I haven't read your essay yet, sorry xD

    Taxation isn't theft, it's the people providing for the people. The government needs money to provide its services and pay its employees and that money has to come from somewhere.

    A government needs to be large because of the scale of the populace it supports and the size of the land it governs. It's like expanding the platform holding up a priceless statue because the first one is too small to take the weight and nobody can replace the priceless artefact once it breaks.
  8. Somewhere_
    January 30th, 2016 6:10 AM
    Somewhere_
    Anarchy has never been tried. It was tried in Ireland in the 1000's and it worked. I need to do more research on it tho. Other than that case, true anarchy has never been tried on a large scale (barring Quakers and such). Anarchy can't work because of curved power lines. Anarchy can only work when the people no longer find the need to be ruled and have a flat power line. I can send you a link describing the Powerline theory in more detail if you want!

    The government interference abandons the poor. Welfare hurts them more than it helps them, which is really unfortunate. In a true free market (where the government is not making the rich richer through subsides, etc), the corporations can never form and the Fed can't print money to devalue the poor's money. The lack of government influence is not abandoning the poor, but actually helping them, or preventing them from being poor in the first place.

    Did you read my essay yet? I forgot two statistics in there that I want to add.

    Not to mention taxation is theft on a mass scale, so "not abandoning the poor" requires violence.

    Just because the government is small does not mean it will collapse. It means the system is flawed because it must grow larger. The US is an example. We started as a Minarchy (more or less), and it has grown into this large government where it interferes with the economy and personal lives.
  9. gimmepie
    January 29th, 2016 10:26 PM
    gimmepie
    The reason society developed rules is because anarchy doesn't work :P

    Sounds like a government that's ready to collapse and that has abandoned the poor.
  10. Somewhere_
    January 29th, 2016 9:52 PM
    Somewhere_
    I think anarchy could work if society began that way. But after hundreds of years of rules, I do not know how well it could really work. And it depends on the kind of anarchy...

    Basically the only government provided services are military protection, courts, and police. Its only role is to protect the rights of the citizens and nothing else. There is extremely minimal taxation and the majority of the power is decentralized.
  11. gimmepie
    January 29th, 2016 8:51 PM
    gimmepie
    That's because people generally have some degree of sense and no anarchy is bad

    Minarchist? I'm not familiar with the term.
  12. Somewhere_
    January 29th, 2016 1:01 PM
    Somewhere_
    Thanks! I may be doing it tonight or tomorrow night, so yea. AnCaps identify themselves as Voluntaryists much of the time because people sort of discredit them as soon as they hear the "anarchy" part.

    Im a Minarchist now, and he will be trying to convert me lol. Im certainly open to the idea; I just worry about the practical applications. Although by not being AnCap, Im a huge hypocrite lol (in regards to my faith as a Christian and my secular philosophy).
  13. gimmepie
    January 28th, 2016 8:50 PM
    gimmepie
    If I think of any questions I'll gladly give them to you. Generally speaking though, talk of anarcho-capitalism just leaves with stunned silence xD
  14. Somewhere_
    January 28th, 2016 1:49 PM
    Somewhere_
    So my political views are changing a bit. I will actually be on a call with a political youtuber and I believe he will most likely be recording. I am putting together a list of questions to ask him. Here is his channel:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9KlNd086aOFK0bHmjCYqew

    Ill be asking him questions about Anarcho-Capitalism. if you have any questions, can you give them to me? I might put it in there. Ill be focusing on subjects like courts, police, military, applications of the N.A.P (non-aggression principle), and the Powerline theory. Basically how these things will work in a world without the government.
  15. gimmepie
    January 27th, 2016 8:36 PM
    gimmepie
    Sorry I forgot to reply haha
    Yeah, you got it right xD