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  1. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    1 Week Ago 6:21 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Thinking that the Ultra Recon duo (there's a pair per version) could be the final antagonists. My theory though is that they once worked for Lusamine as in SM it was mentioned that her husband (Mohn) explored the Ultra Space. Plus, their name doesn't sound like a typical team.
    Of course, they could turn out to be the Ghetsis to her N...
    At least each version has a female-male pair.
  2. Mateo
    1 Week Ago 11:39 AM
    I've kinda been in a weird place mentally lately and thought I'd wait before trying to reply to a really long message. Sorry I didn't send a VM to explain.
  3. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    1 Week Ago 10:16 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    It was pretty cool. Seems like they're going for a larger plot. I dare say larger than the extension that Pt gave to DP's story.
  4. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    1 Week Ago 5:05 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    I agree, they all are past Brendan xD
  5. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    1 Week Ago 3:47 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Nate also feels pretty forgettable.
  6. weedle_mchairybug
    2 Weeks Ago 1:23 AM
    Sure, take all the time you need.
  7. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 9:40 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Wonder why they had to treat Lyra as a different character, and not just claim that she was Kris redone...
  8. weedle_mchairybug
    2 Weeks Ago 6:36 PM
    That's probably one reason why a lot of fans truly hate Iris. It's less about the character herself and more about her being associated with an extremely dumbed-down, childish Ash. People were already salty enough about Ash's hard reset in BW, but Iris constantly teasing him and calling him "a kid" felt like the show was rubbing it in.
    Honestly, in that case, I'd blame either Ash himself or the actual writers for that, not Iris. Do I think her telling off Ash should be toned down to have him refute Iris, sure, but on the other hand, the fact that Ash was made a colossal idiot is more of an indictment on Ash himself.

    Definitely. OS had the most natural character progression of any of the sagas. Johto Ash was clearly a stronger, more competent trainer than Kanto Ash. The only thing that went wrong is that they still didn't let Ash win at the end of Johto (although he still did better than he did in Kanto).
    Fully agreed there, and that even reflected with the gym leaders, where Ash actually won his battles fair and square, not to mention actually had to struggle with several of them. Not to mention, unlike future series save for maybe XY, the gym leaders were actually depicted as very formidable, and all WITHOUT decreasing Ash's competency, or Pikachu's for that matter.

    And, the Celebi movie wasn't even that good, so that just made it even more of a waste.
    Yeah, no kidding.

    If I had to be honest, the Johto anime marked the beginning of my falling out with Pokémon in the early 00s. Constantly seeing COTD after COTD and hardly any characters or storylines from the games made Johto feel like such a drag compared to Kanto, and it also wasn't fun seeing Ash replace his iconic Kanto team with new Pokémon that were clearly weaker, inferior versions. Misty, Brock, and the TRio also felt really boring and watered-down compared to Kanto/Orange.
    Hadn't watched much of Johto, though ironically enough the fillers had absolutely nothing to do with my being driven away from that series. Actually, it's because WB did some really lame ads that ultimately drove me away from them, such as the Sock Party ad (shudders... I already have bad views of singing from Return to the Sea, don't need THAT one where Ash randomly sang broadway style about Sock partys). It also doesn't help that I was eventually growing very paranoid of people denouncing me as a baby for watching Pokémon or even Disney films thanks in large part to how Arthur acted to D.W. regarding Mary Moo Cow. In fact, the closest I've ever gotten to watching Johto was that marathon leading up to DP back in 2008, and quite frankly, I really didn't see what the fuss was all about (granted, I didn't actually see ALL of Johto as it was, but it was the closest I've come to actually watching all of it. Who knows, maybe this Christmas, I'll get a chance to actually watch the entire saga, or at least most of it [don't think the Ice Cave or another of those banned episodes involving Jynx will be there, though]). Though I'll admit, if they're going to keep Ash's Johto Pokémon unevolved, they should at the very least make sure that they gave an in-universe reason for not doing so, like with Pikachu, Bulbasaur and, to a lesser extent, Squirtle. And the Whirl Cup was definitely good as well, and it's nice to see Misty actually being able to pursue her goal, especially when we had far more of an idea of what that entailed than Ash's goal.

    That being said, though, I'll still take Johto over any of the later sagas anyday. And, Johto usually did well whenever game stuff did come up. The gyms were a major improvement over Kanto (Ash actually earned his Johto badges instead of getting half of them out of pity), and I also enjoyed the Red Gyarados episodes.
    Yeah, and the Whirl Cup was very good as well. And on the subject of gyms, I agree, though to be honest, even Kanto's gyms, I could take over the crap that were Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova's gyms. Say what you will about Kanto having pity badges for lack of a better term from half the gym leaders, at least most of the gym leaders there, Misty's sisters aside, were actually proven to be quite formidable and forces to be reckoned with. With Hoenn, however, with the exception of Brawley (and to a lesser extent Roxanne since she at least lost to Pikachu, an established veteran, even if he WAS the victim of level resets during that time), all of the Gym Leaders were pushovers, easily losing to rookie Pokémon on Ash's "fresh start" team. It's actually quite embarrassing to watch characters who, while not necessarily to the level of Elite 4 or Champions, were nonetheless considered to be Crème of the Crop trainers, lose as easily to Ash's rookie team as Jessie, James, and Meowth lost to that Caterpie back in Ash Catches a Pokémon (a Pokémon that was explicitly mentioned to be weak) seven-fold. I mean, it's like, I don't know, binge-watching the whole Imperial Unit on Endor, who were explicitly listed as being an entire legion of the Empire's best troops, basically being easily owned by what are essentially a bunch of animate teddy bears (you know what I'm referencing, right?). Unova's Gym Leaders were arguably worse due to Ash being an idiot there in addition to a rookie team. Even Sinnoh, while comparatively better in that at least they don't lose to rookies nearly as much, came at the cost of Ash and Pikachu themselves being depicted as incompetent, especially in light of their earlier victory over a Regice. In fact, of the regions after Kanto/Orange Islands/Johto, only Kalos came the closest to actually restoring Gym Leaders' honor and reputations as skilled trainers, without making Ash look incompetent I should add.

    What they needed to do was give Brock an egg to raise up. Granted, they may have been unwilling to do that because of Misty's Togepi already filling the "cute baby" role, but the obvious solution to that was for Togepi to evolve. After all of the love and care Misty had given it throughout Kanto/Orange, surely it was happy enough to evolve by Johto? That way, Togepi gets new character development as a Togetic, while Brock gets an actual storyline related to his goal.
    Yeah, no kidding, and it also doesn't help that even Ash got not one, but TWO eggs over Brock that saga (Larvitar and Phanpy, the latter he actually kept), and Ash wasn't even doing breeding as a goal. Phanpy should have gone to Brock, heck, even Larvitar should have gone to Brock.

    Yeah, this was around the time of the Jynx controversy, so TPTB had become extra sensitive about anything that could come off as racist. Of course, it became a moot point when Tracey was horribly-received, and fans clamored to have Brock back.
    Yeah, I know. Find it a bit ironic, even regarding them occurring in America after the fact, that Weatherford didn't complain about Staff Officer Black or Android 15 of Dragon Ball (Z) despite them being very explicitly based on black people, though. And I really don't understand why Japan would panic about Brock potentially being a "racist stereotype" against the Japanese despite the anime originating from Asia, yet have no qualms with admitting they only viewed the girls since May as sexual eyecandy despite their explicitly being 10 year olds. That if anything comes across as even worse than just having an unfortunate stereotype of an ethnicity.

    Which means that an unintended consequence of Ash losing all the time has been the majority of E4 members getting cheated out of ever appearing in the anime. To this date, only the Gen 1 and Gen 4 E4s have entirely appeared in the show, only the latter all appeared in the same saga. Furthermore, it seems that the Gen 2 E4 may not even exist in the anime's universe.
    Yeah, that's another problem posed by the writers decisions regarding their choices with Ash. They really screw them out. And too bad that DP made his Battle Frontier win seem like a joke, especially when they had Pikachu lose to an Ursaring that Paul caught within Sinnoh.

    Well, the biggest problem with keeping the TRio around past Johto was the simple fact that Team Rocket were no longer the villains in the games after Gen 2. Whatever screentime the TRio got was screentime that could've instead gone to the current gen's *actual* villains, and it badly showed in how the Magma/Aqua, Galactic, and Plasma arcs turned out. (Flare fared better, although it helps that they were already very badly executed in the games. The anime really couldn't screw up any worse than XY already did.)
    Yeah, I mean, even if they were to keep JJM, why do they have to keep them as Team Rocket? Why not just act as members of Team Magma/Aqua, Team Galactic, or Team Plasma? And quite frankly, they should make them more threatening, and I don't meant he BW manner, but more like the original series manner.
  9. weedle_mchairybug
    2 Weeks Ago 6:05 AM
    And, going off of that, Ash also had far more realistic dynamics with Misty than he ever did with May/Dawn/Serena. You could tell that Ash and Misty were friends and cared about each other, yet they still clashed and butt heads with each other like stubborn, immature preteens usually do.

    Ash/Iris attempted to recapture the Ash/Misty dynamic, but it veered far too much in the direction of one-sided bullying.
    Yeah, agreed. We could tell that Misty and Ash were friends who had each others best interests, yet still clashed heads and got on each others nerves. And yeah, it did come across as one sided with Iris unfortunately (though that being said, I can't help but agree with her after how Ash really ended up being depicted as a huge Homer Simpson-type moron in BW).

    The problem with DP/XY Ash was that his competence was ultimately hollow fanservice. No matter how much he seemed to "progress," he still ended up losing the league and getting reset back to Idiot Mode in the following saga. It wasn't genuine character development, and it proved meaningless in the long run.

    I'm hoping the show treats Alola as another Orange/Battle Frontier situation and lets Ash win. It's not a traditional 8-gym league, and Ash has usually been allowed to win stuff like that.
    Agreed on all fronts, especially the Alola thing. One good thing about the Original Series that has other series pale in comparison is that there is an actual discernable growth in Ash's skillsets and characterization that we can see. Thanks to them being different series, we don't actually see it, simply being told it.

    Well, as far as I know, that's what the original plan was. After doing poorly in Kanto, Ash would hone his skills through Orange and Johto and return to the Indigo League as a stronger trainer, becoming champion and finally getting to meet Ho-Oh.

    Of course, that was back when nobody was sure if there would be a third generation and there was talk about GSC being the final games. Plus, the intense backlash Tracey received probably made the show afraid to swap out Ash for a new protagonist, especially when the only options RS offered were either a girl or a boy who looked like he had white hair.

    (Even as things were, Brendan already got hounded by the fandom for not looking "normal" or "badass" like Red/Gold, so one can only imagine how fans would've treated him had he replaced Ash. And, do I even need to mention the sexist BS that would've likely come May's way had she been the one to replace Ash?)
    Yeah, I can see your point. Too bad, really, because Ash really needs to go now.

    What makes it even worse is that the Johto arc itself clearly suffered from the decision to keep Ash around. Most planned storylines were either rewritten or dropped (GS Ball, anyone?), and without a clear ending to work towards, the arc mostly meandered in Filler Hell.
    Well, to be fair, the whole GS Ball debacle was due to a failure between the anime and movie production teams (since they wanted the GS Ball to be used in a similar manner to the games to promote it, but then someone decided to just use Celebi in a movie, and they canned it. Too bad they dropped it. I wonder if their having Ash explicitly reference the events of Movie 2 were meant as a subtle apology for ruining that promotion due to the Celebi movie?). So far as the fillers, eh, I actually managed to sit through the episodes of Johto that they showed a few years back in one sitting and was not worse for wear (the only one I missed was Don't Touch that 'Dile, and that was only because I was out getting summer reading books that time and, due to Barnes and Noble being unusually busy during that time, I couldn't make it home in time. This marathon was around the time DP premiered on Cartoon Network here in the States).

    Ah, I see.

    Considering that GSC actually introduced breeding as a game mechanic, Brock was vastly underutilized in Johto. Why bother to bring him back if you're not going to do anything with his goal, especially when there was an obvious game marketing opportunity?
    Yeah, no kidding. Probably the closest they ever got to showing his breeder abilities during Johto was with the Stantler episode and the breeder convention. Beyond that... he really was screwed over, which is a shame especially when the games actually HAD a breeding mechanic that they could do. I don't know if it's due to the matter not being suitable for children or not, though I have my doubts about that since, if they thought Brock's horndog antics were suitable enough to be used as a running gag, they certainly could get away with two Pokémon mating.

    The worst thing about Tracey was that he was extremely underdeveloped. They just threw him into the main cast without ever giving him much of a backstory, and after the fandom revolted against him, he faded into the background even more and was swiftly written out after only a single season.

    Of course, he was put into the show for rather dubious reasons (TPTB were afraid that Brock would be seen as a racist caricature), and since he had been created 100% from scratch and wasn't based on any character from the games, that also made him more limited from a game marketing standpoint.

    At this point, Tracey seems to have been practically written out of existence. He hasn't been seen in the flesh for over a decade, and the recent SM Kanto episodes didn't even mention him, let alone give him an appearance. The Azurill he gave Misty was also completely absent from her SM appearance.
    Yeah, I remember that whole thing regarding how Masamitsu Hidaka feared he was a racist stereotype (though I find it rich: Since Pokémon is a Japanese anime, why would people care if he looked like a Japanese stereotype?) The whole Weatherford thing also didn't help.

    Brock, like Ash and the TRio, is another shining example of what happens when main characters overstay their welcome on this show.
    Yeah, and in the case of Ash, they hadn't bothered to give ANY elaboration on his goal until DP when they stated he'll need to fight the Elite 4 and Champion to even come close to becoming Pokémon Master. Not even having him win the Battle Frontier was apparently enough for him to gain the title, especially when the Brains were strongly implied if not explicitly stated to rival the Elite 4 in terms of combat prowess. And as far as Team Rocket, quite frankly, keeping them for AG onward proved to be a mistake, since they came across as less threatening and more annoying. If you want to make them comical, fine, go right ahead, but don't try to not make them an actual threat. The entire point of being a villain or even an antagonist is for them to be a threat to the protagonist, and not a mere annoyance that can be brushed to the side.
  10. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 7:33 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Aww, now I wish that the MC of GSC had been Red's sibling.


    I see
  11. weedle_mchairybug
    2 Weeks Ago 3:01 AM
    OS Ash acted like a normal 10 year old. He wasn't a total moron, but he did a lot of rash, stupid things and often needed Misty/Brock to keep him in line. That's why the original trio had the best dynamics and why the old episodes are the most enjoyable to watch.
    Yeah, fully agreed with that. At least the OS series did depict Ash (and for that matter the series girl, in this case Misty) as actual 10 year olds, and not making Ash out to be like Homer Simpson, or making what are 10 year old girls look/act more like teenagers or young adults.

    Later sagas swung too far in both directions. DP/XY Ash is less a character and more an hollow Gary Stu designed for fans to project themselves onto, while BW/SM Ash is an overgrown toddler designed purely for comic relief. And, then there's AG Ash, who's just a generic mish-mash of all personality types and has no defining characteristics, whatsoever.
    Yeah, and in the case of AG, he and his rookie team ended up making many of the gym leaders look grossly incompetent and lacking any skill, which comes across as too similar to Team Rocket in Ash Catches a Pokémon. I could tolerate DP and XY Ash, though. At least he managed to actually do better than the prior sagas. Heck, if SM actually HAS Ash do what they failed to do before and actually have him WIN the league in Alola, I'll even tolerate his antics there.

    I've said it a million times, but the biggest mistake this show ever made was keeping Ash around past Johto. The moment Ash stepped foot into Hoenn was the moment he stopped being a character and became a marketing tool, existing solely to promote the Yellow Rat and the most marketable critters of the new generation. His personality would always be altered to suit whatever the current saga called for, forever dooming him to inconsistent characterization.
    Yeah, no kidding. At the very least, they should have allowed him to win Johto so they could be done with him. It's irritating, having him be an inconsistent character, regress regarding potential, and since AG have any potential victories he might have basically be completely undone. And to make matters worse, even most of the target audience is clearly not buying into that crap if the ratings are anything to go by.

    Plus, Misty's a Water type trainer, so it made sense for her to appear in bathing suits every so often, and even then, most of her bathing suits were designed more for athleticism than looking cute.
    Yeah, agreed. People wear swimwear on swim teams for a reason and it's athleticism. She wasn't necessarily wearing them just to look cute.

    Misty was a tomboy with a girly side, which is what made her far more realistic and relatable than May/Dawn/Serena. It also helps that she didn't primarily exist in the cast to market new games. That's one of the biggest reasons I hate May -- She marked the beginning of new traveling companions being brought in solely for marketing purposes.
    Fully agreed there as well. That's also what Wikipedia claims is the reason why she's popular especially among us Westerners.

    That was just a weak in-universe excuse to get him back with Ash and Misty after Tracey was poorly-received. I lay credits to beans that had Tracey been far more successful, Brock would've never returned, and we would've gotten a new male companion in Johto (most likely Falkner). The show may have also been more willing to end Ash's story after Johto (as originally planned) and replace him with May/Brendan in Hoenn.
    I was actually referencing Kanto there (remember, he established his desire to be the world's best Pokémon Breeder after Ash "won" the Boulder Badge), but yeah, fair point regarding Johto onward (still wish they at least made an effort to have Brock try to actually breed two of his own Pokémon during that saga, and later sagas, though). The only other time Brock made any attempt at raising a Pokémon as an egg was with Happiny.

    Totally agreed. Brock's horndog antics had gotten old by the end of Kanto, and I was one of the few people who thought Tracey was a nice change of pace because of it.
    Can't comment on Tracey since I never really watched Orange Islands much (it's not him that drove me to not watch it that time, more that they changed the opening, which at the time, not being familiar with anime much and at most only understanding western cartoons, since those generally didn't change the actual song in the opening (the only thing they actually DID change was the animation at most). In fact, the only time I recall them actually altering the songs was with live action programs such as Sister-Sister and Smart Guy. Different animated series like Super Mario Bros. Super Show and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3, I could understand differing openings, but not Indigo League to Orange Islands.). However, he seemed tolerable compared to Brock in later seasons, especially when Tracey actually kept his liking girls low key.

    I also found Brock to be one of the things that dragged Johto down, as by then, his character had almost entirely been reduced to the horndog act and was a hollow shell of who he was in Kanto. I'm starting to wish Johto had just brought in a new guy. I would've much rather seen Falkner traveling with Ash and Misty instead of a dumbed-down, lobotomized Brock.
    Yeah, no kidding. Though even in Johto, he still had his moments (like the Stantler episode). Other than that, they really should have removed him. And like I said, I find episodes that either try to make him a bit more important as being pretty bad due to usually forcing Brock into it and making the others seem like idiots as a result, or simply doing OOC stuff (for example, aside from Ash failing to recognize Pachirisu's symptoms despite it having similar anatomy to Pikachu, who came down with a cold twice, there's also the fact that Team Rocket outright ignored a Zapdos despite their mission prerogative being to capture, legally or otherwise, rare and valuable Pokémon).

    Brock was great in Kanto, but it's painfully obvious that his character couldn't be taken much further beyond that, especially since they didn't change his goal to one that was less of a dead end until it was far too late.
    Yeah, no kidding. At the very least, they should have him be a Pokémon Doctor at the start of Johto to give him more use.
  12. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 4:38 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Now, Hilbert...

    Btw, what did you think of adult Red?
  13. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 4:33 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Lucas like Gold/Ethan also has is own distinct style (beret and scarf). Though he does resemble Ethan and Red a lot (more so in the latter two's remake artwork). Lucas even shares a lot of default nicknames in the Japanese version with those two...
  14. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 4:26 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Gold was actually originally meant to be Red's brother.
  15. OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    2 Weeks Ago 5:35 PM
    OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
    Some would even say since the very beginning (counting Gold/Ethan, and Brendan). The girls are the most distinctive characters.

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