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Water hits ICE FIRE STEEL BUG ELECTRIC ROCK POISON DARK PSYCHIC FLYING GHOST GROUND FIGHTING It does not hit WATER GRASS DRAGON NORMAL Wait, ROCK does! |
Quagsire w/ water absorb counters that...but there are boltbeam counters, so yeah. Ice fang and EQ have tremendous coverage too together.
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What Quagsire? Ooh I'm scared of that :laugh: One, maybe two DD will beat that with SE. But yes, Ice Fang & Earthquake has the best coverage.
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EDIT: BE AFRAID OF QUAGSIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Meh you still get walled by Zong, who just resorts to Exploding or Charge beaming you. ice Fang and Eq, and Eq and SE probably have about the same coverage. EDIT: You also get walled by Claydol with EQ and SE. |
Still, claydol doesn't take that much damage from waterfall or ice fang eiother, though a few DDs and it is gone. Ice fang/waterfall/stone edge + EQ are the best moves for the last two slots...EQ FTW!
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As it is, Gya cannot hit everythihg. Choose something and go after it. I beat Ludicolo with EQ & three DD's.
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Yeah, truth is, every pokemon is walled by something. Pick and choose. Pick and choose. ICe fang ans EQ is my fav combo...
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Taunt is for more than Skarm. It allows you to set up. I use Waterfall over Ice Fang. Power over coverage. But thats just me.
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Lol, I just did a test to see who was better out EQ/IFados and returnados, and guess who won?
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I'm on my wii, so I can't realy type... I'll explain why it was Returnados tomorrow.
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EDIT: I'll make this simple Jimmyray... -Ice Fang and EQ cover everything...return has terrible coverage. Walled by rock, steel, and ghost types. That's a lot of pokemon. Ironically, the move that would pair with it the best is EQ, since it hurts rock and steel types a lot. Still, that pair would fail, since Bronzong, skarm, gengar, etc. would laugh at you. Now, replacing return with ston edge gives you trememndous coverage (earthslide, but w/ stone edge). Now you cover all those dreaded pokemon you briought up in your previous posts. All of a sudden, you hit almost any pokemon with a solid hit, with a few exceptions. But, every pokemon is walled by something, so you have to decide what you're going to get walled by. Okay, next option. Waterfall and EQ. Both have great power with Gyara, as one gets STAB and the other has great base power. Even though there are quite a few pokemon that wall that, the overall power of both moves allows for nice power, even if it "is not very effective," assuming you've got at least one DD in. Basically, this is power over coverage. Last option...ice fang and EQ, my favorite combo. Flyers? Dead. Dragons? Dead. Electric types? Dead. It has tremendous coverage, but not overwheling power. It is a lovely combo that hits a lot of its counters. Not much more to say. While walled by bronzong again, all pokemon are walled by something...just scout for bronzong at the beginning of the battle, take it out, and proceed by sending out Gyara. Okay, notice those all have EQ? Without it, many electric types that normally aren't gyara counters suddenly turn into gyara counters, and it falls much easier. therefor, EQ is a must on it, for its own survival. Therefore, if you were to use return, you'd get squashed. Gengar, bronzong, etc. would wall you far worse than the other combos I mentioned and you are kinda hopeless. Okay, so then you want to get rid of EQ to keep return. Then the electric types lol at you. You see, return fails on gyarados, because it doesn't give it the necessary coverage to be a huge threat in the metagame like the other gyaras I posted are. I'm a pokemon nerd, geek, I have no life, so you'd hope I'd be good at what I like. I just so happen to be a very good battler. Not tremndous and legendary, but good. You should listen Jimmyray, you'd benefit a lot. |
Well, Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 covered it pretty well, but to make his long story short:
STABless Return fails because it gets no super effective hits. Now with STAB, we're still looking at a 153-power move, which is nothing to sneeze at, but on Gyarados it's a measly 102. Waterfall, on the other hand, enjoys STAB (Raising it up to 120 effective power) in addition to nailing a number of weaknesses and having a respectable flinch rate. Earthquake is 100 base, which is marginally below Return on a normal hit, but it is super effective against the one type Gyarados really loathes going up against: Electrics. Now what types won't quake and Waterfall hurt properly? Ground and Water don't match up well against Grass, and Flying types avoid quake (Water/Flying and Grass/Flying also weathering Waterfall fairly well) and this is where the third move comes in: Ice Fang is a great fit, since it not only has the freeze and flinch rate to its name but is also super effective against...ta-dah, Grass and Flying types. The pokes with levitate will also either have an ice weak or take neutral damage from Waterfall. In other words, while Ice Fang's base power is a measly 65, we're only using it as a super effective attack so it will effectively turn to 130 or even 260, depending on the target. EQ is also used largely for super effective hits (200 or 400 effective base power) and Waterfall stands at a solid 120 even without being super effective, so all of them are superior to Return's lackluster 102 base power. Plus, all of these moves have an effect outside of dealing damage (although Earthquake's will only become relevant if your opponent is a clueless N00B in love with Dig) giving them another benefit to their name. So yeah, unless we're dealing with a Normal type or a pokémon with an absolutely craptastic movepool there's no reason to even consider Return. =O That 'test' was obviously a load of BS to have reached such an absurd result, probably done with an otherwise failing movepool (or some very bad gameplay) on the EQ Gyarados' part, because there's no rational backing for using Return on a Gyarados. xP |
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Bronzong ~ It's never the first pokemon, Gyarados should have been danced up enough to either kill Bronzong with Waterfall, or taunt it, which leaves Gyro Ball and Earthquake and Psychic which either aren't very effective, ir aren't effective at all... Skarmory ~ Pretty much the same thing, except you'd obviously go for taunt straight away. Gengar ~ Since when could Gengar survive waterfall? |
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You totally missed the point on gengar. Gyara needs EQ so electric types don't come in and laugh at gyarados. With simple prediction, they can switch in and OHKO gyara. You can't assume it will have DDs in...if you do, when you aren't powered up, that assumption will come and bite you in the butt. Zapdos is a nice coujnter for gyara, unless you give it stone edge or ice fang, which I'll get into later. Becasue of the reasons I just posted, even you, Jimmyray, must admit gyara needs EQ to deal with its biggest weakness, since it is far from a guarentee that a waterfall not powered from DD will OHKO gyara's threats...therefore, it needs EQ. So, we now have taunt, DD, and EQ. This is where gengar comes back into play. Since gyara needs EQ pretty much, if you gave it return, gengar would laugh at you. EQ...levitate! Return doesn't effect it...so since EQ is needed, return isn't an option...because far too many pokemon wall it. Agiligross can switch in, set up, and OHKO gyara w/ thunderpunch too...and Vire lols at gyara that doesn't carry EQ. Which brings me to my next point. Any GOOD battler you fight will have good prediction skills...the minute your opponent realizes you were stupid enough to put return on gyara, gengar or zapdos comes in and will force you to switch, meaning they have a free turn to do as they wish and lol at you. Any steel also lols at return, or even rock type (both types in which all their pokemon have generally good defense). So rhyperior could come in and OHKO with stone edge, at least the common CB version. the other options above give you far more coverage so that you aren't walled by every pokemon on the planet except bidoof and zigzagoon. If you still refuse to listen and feel gyara needs a normal move (even though it doesn't gain STAB and has much poorer coverage than ice fand, stone edge, and even waterfall), then use double edge. It has a bit more power and might.../MIGHT/ make using a normal move worth it. I still lol at the idea of return on tauntrados. lolololololol. |
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[SET] name: Calm Mind Tank move1: Charge Beam/ Block move2: Calm Mind move3: Psychic / Hidden Power Ice move4: Rest item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry ability: Levitate nature: Relaxed / Quiet / Sassy evs: 252 HP / 100 DEF / 152 SPATK From Smogon, and ive used this on Shoddy Battle, and its fantastic it gets Pwned by Charge Beam !! Also for Gengar, have you ever heard of Focus Sash and Thunderbolt lol?? and no player in their right mind would ever Leave Skarm in on Taunt |
Most Bronzong's I came across had something like:
Trick Room Gyro Ball Earthquake Hypnosis As for Gengar, it wouldn't kill an EV'd Gyarados in Sp.Def with one TB usually... |
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Also why would Gyarados be Ev trained in Sp.Def? as for Thunderbolt ITS 4X EFFECTIVE !!!! Gyarados DIES LOL XD Besises EVS for TauntDos are 214 HP 16 ATT 180 DEF 100 SPEED |
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Also, you keep mentioning waterfall. If you use waterfall and return, electrics, like jolteon, laugh at you. So to keep return as you desire to do, you'd have to get rid of waterfall. Big dfeal, right? No, because now bronzong, especially the charge beam variant, laughs at you. So lololololol, I'm right for once |
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