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-   -   4th Gen Legends - Real or not? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=114650)

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 5:26 PM

Legends - Real or not?
 
Yay! Another theory thread!

Okay, let's start. Pokémon is a game where there are many legends told and fantastic things. However, if you don't count the fact that regular animals can firebreath or those things, it's basically a normal world where science and technology keeps upgrading. Manmade Pokémon have been created, a PC storage system exists, Poké Balls are able to capture them, Machines can teach Pokémon moves they can't learn by other means, and special methods to evolve Pokémon are being discovered such as radiaton (stones/hold items/location) or mental state (happiness).

On the other side, we've all heard that Lugia is the guardian of the seas, that Entei makes volcanoes erupt when it barks, that Kyogre created the ocean and Groudon the earth, that Jirachi can grant wishes, that Dialga controls time, that Palkia created the space, that Giratina is said to live in a parallel universe, that Darkrai consumes you through nightmares, and that Arceus is the god who created Sinnoh with its thousand arms.

However, we have never seen Lugia controlling the sea (unless they're used surf or something), Entei making volcanoes erupt, Jirachi granting wishes or Dialga travelling through time. Hoenn and Sinnoh seem to have more legends, but not real evidence of these fantastic situations. The plots make you believe all this happens, like Team Galactic wanting to control the universe through Dialga or Plakia, but really Gamefreak seems to point out in some way that science is more precise.

It's said Arceus made the world while science says Mew is the ancestor of most known Pokémon. It was said Latias had powers to become invisible while the Dex says it has the ability to cover itself in a glass-like thing that refracts light. And supposedly Dialga made time and Palkia made space, but they don't seem to be stronger than Mewtwo, for example. They're just legends that don't make sense.

And something that many of you probably never thought: Arceus has the better stats. However, it can't learn some moves, unlike Mew. It's something that lives in a heaven-like place with ridiculous stats. Could it be God? Actually, no. When you find it, you'll see it's simply a Lv80 Pokémon. Just that. It can be the strongest thing there, but you can still catch it in a Poké Ball. Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

So, basically, this threads is to discuss about legends in the Pokémon world, especially Arceus. Do you think they are a little bit too exaggerated? Do you think science has proved enough? Is Arceus the real "creator of the world"? And do you think Gamefreak tries to tell us this on purpose?

You've heard my opinion, so what does everyone else think?

DeathOfBlades November 7th, 2007 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058459)
Yay! Another theory thread!

Okay, let's start. Pokémon is a game where there are many legends told and fantastic things. However, if you don't count the fact that regular animals can firebreath or those things, it's basically a normal world where science and technology keeps upgrading. Manmade Pokémon have been created, a PC storage system exists, Poké Balls are able to capture them, Machines can teach Pokémon moves they can't learn by other means, and special methods to evolve Pokémon are being discovered such as radiaton (stones/hold items/location) or mental state (happiness).

On the other side, we've all heard that Lugia is the guardian of the seas, that Entei makes volcanoes erupt when it barks, that Kyogre created the ocean and Groudon the earth, that Jirachi can grant wishes, that Dialga controls time, that Palkia created the space, that Giratina is said to live in a parallel universe, that Darkrai consumes you through nightmares, and that Arceus is the god who created Sinnoh with its thousand arms.

However, we have never seen Lugia controlling the sea (unless they're used surf or something), Entei making volcanoes erupt, Jirachi granting wishes or Dialga travelling through time. Hoenn and Sinnoh seem to have more legends, but not real evidence of these fantastic situations. The plots make you believe all this happens, like Team Galactic wanting to control the universe through Dialga or Plakia, but really Gamefreak seems to point out in some way that science is more precise.

It's said Arceus made the world while science says Mew is the ancestor of most known Pokémon. It was said Latias had powers to become invisible while the Dex says it has the ability to cover itself in a glass-like thing that refracts light. And supposedly Dialga made time and Palkia made space, but they don't seem to be stronger than Mewtwo, for example. They're just legends that don't make sense.

And something that many of you probably never thought: Arceus has the better stats. However, it can't learn some moves, unlike Mew. It's something that lives in a heaven-like place with ridiculous stats. Could it be God? Actually, no. When you find it, you'll see it's simply a Lv80 Pokémon. Just that. It can be the strongest thing there, but you can still catch it in a Poké Ball. Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

So, basically, this threads is to discuss about legends in the Pokémon world, especially Arceus. Do you think they are a little bit too exaggerated? Do you think science has proved enough? Is Arceus the real "creator of the world"? And do you think Gamefreak tries to tell us this on purpose?

You've heard my opinion, so what does everyone else think?


I think GameFreak is just very desperate to look up of new sentences for the Legends.

Nacon November 7th, 2007 5:50 PM

Its just like the science vs. religion that we see daily....

I personally feel that religion, in terms of explaining things, fills in the blanks like a game of mad libs, explaining phenomenons in terms that layman people can understand, then science puts in proper terms that explain it in a logical manner.....

Sure Mewtwo and defeat Palkia AND Dialga in one shot, but that's what he was created for. He was created through science.

Even though I haven't personally seen or used Arceus (aside from the internet) I'm guessing that he is like the Great White Shark of pokemon... not needing to evolve or change because it is able to handle almost all environments (hence the reason we can use the plates on him like that?)

Groudon could have created more land by simply causing earthquakes and land masses rising from the moving plates, while Kyogre could expand on bodies of water from creating powerful waves that cause erosion.



the main thing I wonder is whether or not they are more than 1 of these species in existence in the pokemon universe. Take the [email protected] for example... in the movie the [email protected] were descendents of other [email protected], just happened to be, basically, a rare species.


this is a cool topic... I'd like to see other people's thoughts on this.

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 5:52 PM

I'm wondering that, too. Somehow, the game kind of hints us that there are more than one of some legendaries. For example, we can see legendaries in the Battle Tower, even the ones from your region. Also, Lugia and Ho-oh have appeared in Johto and the Navel Rock as well, so maybe they are just rare. Either that or it's just a mechanic to catch legendaries through generations. =/

Forci Stikane November 7th, 2007 5:54 PM

I think what Gamefreak is trying to do is suggest that science beats mythology. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone, but in a way this is true. Science has made discoveries about the planet and universe that were originally explained by mythology, such as the movement of the sun and waves of the ocean. If we wanted to go deeper with that, I could even say that Gamefreak is secretly making an allusion to how the world has changed from being controlled by mythology to mostly technology-oriented.

Now, to be fair, some of those legends did indeed prove to be true. Darkrai was indeed in your nightmares when you first see him, and was most likely the infliction of the boy involved in the Cresselia sidequest (I believe the game even hints at this directly). Dialga & Palkia also were supposedly morphing time/space on top of Mt. Coronet just before the Psychic Elves showed up...and Latias could make itself turn invisible with its glass-like down (its fur or feathers, whichever), so that would count as well. That might not be much, but it still isn't fair to say that the legends never live up to their legend (:)) in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058459)
Do you think you could catch God in a Poké Ball?

That line made me laugh. Honestly, though, I think we're not dealing with a "god" as in the more Christian idea as we are with a god such as the Greek idea, which included that gods were susceptible to human situations at times (see: Zeus & Hercules). It is true that Sinnoh legend stated that Arceus created Sinnoh, but Arceus could have been taking a more powerful form at the time as opposed to when you go to catch it. For instance, where are those "thousand arms" that the legend talks about?

Perhaps...perhaps the legend didn't mean literal arms, but rather subordinate Pokemon that Arceus led in the task of creating Sinnoh. This would not only explain away the contradiction with Mew and others, but also how it is possible for Arceus to have "created Sinnoh" but still be caught in a Poke Ball. After all, 30-50 Pokemon were able to revive Satoshi in the first movie, so who's to say what kind of power a thousand of them could come up with?

Nacon November 7th, 2007 5:59 PM

hmmm... yea..... the pokemon tears......

each of the pokemon themselves have mystical powers that haven't been thoroughly or scientifically explained yet.

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 6:10 PM

Yeah, well, I admit there are some things we can't contradict. I mean, we can't explain that rain that immediately changed to sun when both Kyogre and Groudon awoke in Emerald. At least not now. It seems science has no end.

Well, about the Arceus bit, it has some kind of power to change forms (plates) but nothing too impressive. And it needs an item. What do you think the plates are anyway?

And, yeah, I think Arceus is not "God", it's more like "god". But still. And the thing about the arms is kind of ironic, because, coincidentally, it can't learn moves that need arms. Mew, on the other hand, can learn Steel Wing.

Nacon November 7th, 2007 6:14 PM

Maybe Arceus was the creation of an ancient civilization...sorta like an Atlantean-type civilization.... an ancient Mewtwo....

Forci Stikane November 7th, 2007 6:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058627)
Yeah, well, I admit there are some things we can't contradict. I mean, we can't explain that rain that immediately changed to sun when both Kyogre and Groudon awoke in Emerald. At least not now. It seems science has no end.

Well, about the Arceus bit, it has some kind of power to change forms (plates) but nothing too impressive. And it needs an item. What do you think the plates are anyway?

And, yeah, I think Arceus is not "God", it's more like "god". But still. And the thing about the arms is kind of ironic, because, coincidentally, it can't learn moves that need arms. Mew, on the other hand, can learn Steel Wing.

Honestly, as powerful as science might get, nature is still going to be something that'll be difficult to predict.

I'm actually liking that theory of Arceus being in a different form more and more by the minute. Those plates could very well be pieces of Arceus' true power that it lost when it took its current form. Alternatively, they could have been somehow lost along the way when Sinnoh was created...or they could have even been necessary to place in Sinnoh in order to get the job done in the first place. It still explains how it can be caught in a Poke Ball, having lost the majority of its power and being forced to revert into this "lesser" form. After all, if it hadn't lost at least some of its powers at some point after that, then how in the world could it be beaten easily by a simple Level 100 UU? You can't explain that one away with science...

Heh, and it Mega Punch's with its tail. Pokemon moves make no sense sometimes. XD

Justin T November 7th, 2007 6:26 PM

In game terms no they can't, (unless you count dialga and palkia in story mode on sky pillar) but in anime terms, ofcourse they can. Thats what makes them so great:D

Live in Color November 7th, 2007 6:51 PM

Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

Justin T November 7th, 2007 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyt (Post 3058752)
Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

But then again you have to think about it. Arceus Arc as in Arc angel. Kind of writes itself. Not to mention it can become every type of pokemon. I bet if they ever make another type of pokemon, they're will just be another plate for him. By the way (offtopic kind of) Squarline Theme rules!!!

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyt (Post 3058752)
Well, it says that Mew created all Pokemon, but Arceus is the creator of the universe. Who came first?

If Arceus is a so called "god" then it should be able to create itself on its own, but Mew created every Pokemon. Perhaps Mew created Arceus, who then shaped the universe? But then why would Arceus leave Dialga to control time and Palkia to control space. Then to only have Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf stop Dialga/Palkia (depending on the game you have) from "power tripping". (xD) Also, if there were 151 original Pokemon, then how come these Pokemon, 3 generations later, are introduced into creating the universe now...

Also if Arceus is the "creator" how come other Pokemon, such as Groudon formed the land, and Kyogre the water. But then Lugia (In Pokemon 2000) basically stops the world being destroyed with the help of the "Chosen One" (Ash) Lugia is also called, "The Guardian". Also the three birds, they control the forces of nature because of their orbs, they needed to be placed in the shrine, and yet the weather goes all out of whack, but I thought that Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza controlled the weather, not the birds?

There's something to ponder on...

Mew was never thought to have created all the Pokémon. It was said it was the ancestor of all the Pokémon. Something that could fit with both could be that Arceus first made Mew (at least two of them), who then just evolved (in the non-Pokémon way) to all the other species. But then again, the story says Arceus made the universe, then created Dialga and Palkia to shape the time and space who then made the spirits for no good reason. Then where's Mew?

Also, Arceus's story contradicts some others like Groudon and Kyogre's, as you said. Unless they are, again, just a part of Palkia maybe, who took care of the space. You could also say Celebi was created by Dialga for the time travelling stuff. And I don't know about the others, but there are people who make chain things that connect the legendaries.

Maybe they should stop giving legendaries that much power. I mean, time and space? Come on, back in the first generation, the birds had no special powers.

Justin T November 7th, 2007 7:03 PM

True, but it was the second movie that gave them a purpose. The three titans of ice, fire, and lightning shall unlock the great guardian lugia and all that other good stuff.

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 7:13 PM

I don't remember much of the anime. Stopped watching it years ago. And I'm not sure if it's a good reference.

Nacon November 7th, 2007 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058832)
I don't remember much of the anime. Stopped watching it years ago. And I'm not sure if it's a good reference.

I'm with you on that... the TV show isn't my thing....

but bringing up the Pokemon tears was a great reference to these things.

Forci Stikane November 7th, 2007 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058789)
Mew was never thought to have created all the Pokémon. It was said it was the ancestor of all the Pokémon. Something that could fit with both could be that Arceus first made Mew (at least two of them), who then just evolved (in the non-Pokémon way) to all the other species. But then again, the story says Arceus made the universe, then created Dialga and Palkia to shape the time and space who then made the spirits for no good reason. Then where's Mew?

Also, Arceus's story contradicts some others like Groudon and Kyogre's, as you said. Unless they are, again, just a part of Palkia maybe, who took care of the space. You could also say Celebi was created by Dialga for the time travelling stuff. And I don't know about the others, but there are people who make chain things that connect the legendaries.

Maybe they should stop giving legendaries that much power. I mean, time and space? Come on, back in the first generation, the birds had no special powers.

Remember that comparison I made earlier of Arceus being more like a Greek god than the Christian one? Well, going along that same line again, the Greek gods actually were created by a larger being. So, what if Arceus didn't create Mew, but rather Mew created Arceus? In that case, everything branches out quite well:

---------------------------------Groudon
Mew ---> Arceus ---> Palkia ---> Kyogre ---> Manaphy
----------------------Dialga ---> Celebi
----------------------Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf (wasn't Arceus the one who made them??)
----------Ho-oh* ---> Raikou, Entei, Suicune

(*=The anime refers to it as being just as "divine" as Arceus, and I tend to take that as being canon, seeing as the games suggest the same)

...Let's back away for a minute and take a look at the big picture. In the original, japanese versions of the games, does in specify that Arceus created the world or just Shinou? If it says just Shinou, then that means that other Legendaries could have created the other areas and Mew created them all. ......Of course, when they said Mew was the "ancestor" of all Pokemon, Arceus hadn't been created yet, so it's just as easy to say that Mew's been ret-conned.

Eos Aduro November 7th, 2007 7:50 PM

Here's one thing to remember, Mew is a mortal being, its not a god or anything! They found its DNA and were able to clone it. Can you clone a god? I hope not. And the theory that Arceus formed the world with its thousand arms could yes mean, by using Pokemon. If you look at greek mythology, there was a heck of a lot of human being interactions there. Maybe Arceus wanted to be captured in a form thats viewabkle and acceptable so it could experience more.

Nacon November 7th, 2007 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3058921)
Here's one thing to remember, Mew is a mortal being, its not a god or anything! They found its DNA and were able to clone it. Can you clone a god? I hope not. And the theory that Arceus formed the world with its thousand arms could yes mean, by using Pokemon. If you look at greek mythology, there was a heck of a lot of human being interactions there. Maybe Arceus wanted to be captured in a form thats viewabkle and acceptable so it could experience more.



sorta like a Jesus as the God-Incarnate type thing?

those thousand arms could have been the arms of its followers for all we know.

Shiny Umbreon November 7th, 2007 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichaste Pekoni (Post 3058916)
Remember that comparison I made earlier of Arceus being more like a Greek god than the Christian one? Well, going along that same line again, the Greek gods actually were created by a larger being. So, what if Arceus didn't create Mew, but rather Mew created Arceus? In that case, everything branches out quite well:

---------------------------------Groudon
Mew ---> Arceus ---> Palkia ---> Kyogre ---> Manaphy
----------------------Dialga ---> Celebi
----------------------Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf (wasn't Arceus the one who made them??)
----------Ho-oh* ---> Raikou, Entei, Suicune

(*=The anime refers to it as being just as "divine" as Arceus, and I tend to take that as being canon, seeing as the games suggest the same)

...Let's back away for a minute and take a look at the big picture. In the original, japanese versions of the games, does in specify that Arceus created the world or just Shinou? If it says just Shinou, then that means that other Legendaries could have created the other areas and Mew created them all. ......Of course, when they said Mew was the "ancestor" of all Pokemon, Arceus hadn't been created yet, so it's just as easy to say that Mew's been ret-conned.

OK. Dialga and Palkia made the pixies so they're in the incorrect place, and Ho-oh can't be like Arceus. Sure, Ho-oh is better than the dogs as Lugias is with the birds and as Regigigas is with the regis, but it's in no way divine, at least not like Arceus or Mew (if there's some "divine" on it).

I agree that Arceus could have made Sinnoh while others were doing their jobs separately. But the game does mention he made the universe, at least in the library thing. If it doesn't, there's still something. If Arceus only made Sinnoh and was created by Mew and everything, why is it the most powerful Pokémon. Even if Arceus has good reasons to be a god, we can't doubt about science (Mew), so I guess we have to doubt about Arceus.

And Mew wasn't cloned exactly. Its DNA was used to make a new Pokémon but, yeah, the same idea. It proves it's a normal being, not a divine thing.

Eos Aduro November 7th, 2007 8:00 PM

It created Followers to Create the Universe, than vanquished them, made Mew, and it following its destiny, created all of the other Pokemon in turn. Its a plausible idea.

EDIT If you look at genetics, it is possible to improve upon beings already, its been done many times with fish and produce. And it also says that Arceus only made Sinnoh, not the rest of the world...

DOUBLE EDIT I copyed this from Wikipedia.

Arceus (アルセウス, Aruseusu?) is a legendary Pokémon that premiered in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl. It has a large, golden wheel around its abdomen, connected by spikes. It is said in a book called "The Original Story" that Arceus was born from an egg in a vortex of pure chaos. After it was born, it created two beings of time (Dialga) and space (Palkia) from itself, and then three more beings (Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit). Those five creatures created matter and spirit, while Arceus went to sleep. This story can be found in the Canalave Library, and can also be told from the various plates the player encounters in the story.

Arceus has the Multitype Ability, which allows the player to change Arceus' type to any of the other sixteen types by having it hold various elemental plates. Arceus' signature move, Judgment, works hand in hand with the elemental plates. Arceus also has the highest base stat total of any Pokémon to date.

Justin T November 7th, 2007 8:11 PM

I still believe that being every type of pokemon and coming from the root word arc, means it created everything (pokemon wise).

Forci Stikane November 7th, 2007 9:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3058943)
OK. Dialga and Palkia made the pixies so they're in the incorrect place, and Ho-oh can't be like Arceus. Sure, Ho-oh is better than the dogs as Lugias is with the birds and as Regigigas is with the regis, but it's in no way divine, at least not like Arceus or Mew (if there's some "divine" on it).

I agree that Arceus could have made Sinnoh while others were doing their jobs separately. But the game does mention he made the universe, at least in the library thing. If it doesn't, there's still something. If Arceus only made Sinnoh and was created by Mew and everything, why is it the most powerful Pokémon. Even if Arceus has good reasons to be a god, we can't doubt about science (Mew), so I guess we have to doubt about Arceus.

And Mew wasn't cloned exactly. Its DNA was used to make a new Pokémon but, yeah, the same idea. It proves it's a normal being, not a divine thing.

...I'm pretty sure that Arceus made the elves in order to create the spirit and to control Dialga & Palkia, but I guess I could be wrong...but I put Ho-oh alongside Arceus because, for one thing, it has been proven to have the power to give life, as shown by the Dogs. On top of that, there are several other references, in both the anime and in the original G/S/C, that Ho-oh had strong divinity, so I placed it there.

:\ It's tough to say. Who knows what sort of bizarre events took place? Maybe most of Mew's power somehow were transferred into Arceus? :D Yeah, that's a bit farfetched, but like I said, who knows?

...Wait...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3058944)
DOUBLE EDIT I copyed this from Wikipedia.

Arceus (アルセウス, Aruseusu?) is a legendary Pokémon that premiered in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl. It has a large, golden wheel around its abdomen, connected by spikes. It is said in a book called "The Original Story" that Arceus was born from an egg in a vortex of pure chaos. After it was born, it created two beings of time (Dialga) and space (Palkia) from itself, and then three more beings (Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit). Those five creatures created matter and spirit, while Arceus went to sleep. This story can be found in the Canalave Library, and can also be told from the various plates the player encounters in the story.

......I thought so...

Nacon November 7th, 2007 9:12 PM

more than anything..... I want to know the deal with Giratina.... I think it has the darkest of locations, it looks creepy\cool! and it's also the heaviest pokemon...

I'm under the impression that he's the Lord of the Underworld type of guy.

Live in Color November 8th, 2007 4:26 AM

Where does Giratina fit in? What created it? All it says it that it lives in another world, a reverse world... Wikipedia also says that Giratina represents death.

Also if Manaphy is the "Prince of the Sea", but Lugia is the "Guardian of the Sea", then who truly rules the sea? Or even maybe Kyogre? :S

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 1:25 PM

No Kyogre CREATED the sea, and Lugia was like OMG I like the sea and protected the sea, and Manaphy was all like I like the sea, soIm its prince, but who's the king of the sea? And Giratina lives in a random maze surrounded by flowers, I think he's kind of a twisted dood.

El Gofre November 8th, 2007 2:03 PM

I personally like the idea of arceus, I'd rather he be a more humanoid poke but i like everythin else about him.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 5:46 PM

And how do you find Giratina anyway? Maybe you travel to another universe when you go through the Spring Path.

And I wanted to say that whoever said it is right, too. Manaphy is the prince, Lugia the guardian and Kyogre the creator but which one is right? What's the definition of "prince" in this context anyway?

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 5:48 PM

Prince is the heir to the throne, so Manaphy would need to have a father, which only leads to it being Lugia

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 5:49 PM

That's if there's only one Lugia.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 5:50 PM

Meh, it can fly, it probably gets around. But there was a Dark Lugia if I remember correctly, but I never played that game

Nacon November 8th, 2007 5:54 PM

Dark Lugia definitely conflicts with that theory...

I think each region has its own set of distinct legends, sorta like our world.... the Greeks believed in Zeus, the Norse believed in Odin.... The Mayans Kukulkan... the Aztecs Quetzcoatl..... the Christians\Islams\Hebrews God\Yahweh\Allah ....so on...

regional legends=regional figures.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 5:56 PM

Whats the story behind Dark Lugia anyways?

Nacon November 8th, 2007 5:58 PM

I'm pretty sure that it's not as simple as it's THE Lugia gone awry.

I think someone else can explain that a lot better and more in depth than I can.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3061260)
Dark Lugia definitely conflicts with that theory...

I think each region has its own set of distinct legends, sorta like our world.... the Greeks believed in Zeus, the Norse believed in Odin.... The Mayans Kukulkan... the Aztecs Quetzcoatl..... the Christians\Islams\Hebrews God\Yahweh\Allah ....so on...

regional legends=regional figures.

That would have as a conclusioin that we believe is false. But, as I said, we've seen a lot to believe. Rain and then sun in less than a minute? Then rain again, then sun.

I don't know about the Dark Lugia as I haven't completed XD but I believe it was something like an artificial Pokémon.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:01 PM

Hmmmm, well maybe some legendaries are actually god-like, and others are just the last of there species, like the regis and the elemental birds.

EmpoleMew November 8th, 2007 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3060200)
No Kyogre CREATED the sea, and Lugia was like OMG I like the sea and protected the sea, and Manaphy was all like I like the sea, soIm its prince, but who's the king of the sea? And Giratina lives in a random maze surrounded by flowers, I think he's kind of a twisted dood.

That bit on Giratina makes it sound like GameFreak wanted it to be a sort of emo Pokemon.

I actually came up with a theory about this over the summer, but I'll post it tomorrow. I do however think that there is a relation between Kyogre, Lugia, and Manaphy, mostly because I love Water types. (Although Lugia isn't Water) I think that after Kyogre went to sleep after its battle with Groudon, Lugia came to watch over the sea until Kyogre was awakened. The it gave Manaphy the title of prince in case both of them were incapable of action. If that were to happen, Manaphy would govern the sea and Phione would be next in line.

Nacon November 8th, 2007 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3061287)
Hmmmm, well maybe some legendaries are actually god-like, and others are just the last of there species, like the regis and the elemental birds.

I can totally see that... like how Dratinis were once thought to be legendary.... check the dexes on that, you'll see what I mean......

that also makes me really wonder about the starter pokemon... we only see 'em as starters or against in game trainers throughout the gameplay... and it's mentioned that they live in certain parts of the world.... how come we never see 'em in the wild?

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:09 PM

One more thing, in the first season, this is a pretty memorable episode, a researcher at a lighthouse is signalling to the ONLY Dragonite in the world, but its well known that its NOT the only, so some legendaries could just be very very rare. Maybe theres a whole WORLD of Giratinas, just one happened to end up here.

Nacon November 8th, 2007 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3061318)
One more thing, in the first season, this is a pretty memorable episode, a researcher at a lighthouse is signalling to the ONLY Dragonite in the world, but its well known that its NOT the only, so some legendaries could just be very very rare. Maybe theres a whole WORLD of Giratinas, just one happened to end up here.

yea... from an alternate dimension... an anomalitical occurence... you never know... what's revered as a God in one place could just be another simpleton in another.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3061310)
I can totally see that... like how Dratinis were once thought to be legendary.... check the dexes on that, you'll see what I mean......

that also makes me really wonder about the starter pokemon... we only see 'em as starters or against in game trainers throughout the gameplay... and it's mentioned that they live in certain parts of the world.... how come we never see 'em in the wild?

Were Dratini thought to be legendary? Then than makes me doubt a lot. Really, some have no unusual powers.

Starters, if they were rare, they wouldn't be given to starting trainers. It's just that they aren't in your region. But it's most likely just a mechanic from the game rather than a real fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3061341)
you never know... what's revered as a God in one place could just be another simpleton in another.

That made me laugh a lot. Anyway, I believe that's true. Deoxys is more powerful than most "world creators" from Earth, and who knows if it's just a weak Pokémon in space?

Nacon November 8th, 2007 6:27 PM

yo... Shiny Umbreon... makes me wonder...... it's like the whole Superman complex... the yellow Sun gave the son of Krypton his powers.... probably like how a common-cold-equivalent found its way to Earth and become Deoxys... lol...


oh about the Dratini thing:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/147
check out the list of its dex from all the poke-games.

Lunux November 8th, 2007 6:29 PM

Kyogre created the sea, Lugia rules the sea, and Manaphy is just there being the prince maybe a long ancestorial connection to mew. which in turn links mewtwo into it because of the cloning stuff making it also related to all pokemon. Therefore, Mewtwo, mew, kyogre, lugia, and manaphy all have relation to being ruler of the sea. Of course that would not be possible if Palkia wasn't there to create space.

Articuno, Moltres and Zapdos are said to be The three things that guard or whatever from lugia. Why, and how when lugia lives in the sea. Were they meaning to protect from an evil force?

Nacon November 8th, 2007 6:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunux (Post 3061399)
Kyogre created the sea, Lugia rules the sea, and Manaphy is just there being the prince maybe a long ancestorial connection to mew. which in turn links mewtwo into it because of the cloning stuff making it also related to all pokemon. Therefore, Mewtwo, mew, kyogre, lugia, and manaphy all have relation to being ruler of the sea. Of course that would not be possible if Palkia wasn't there to create space.

Articuno, Moltres and Zapdos are said to be The three things that guard or whatever from lugia. Why, and how when lugia lives in the sea. Were they meaning to protect from an evil force?

you totally lost me with your linking theory... mind going more in depth?

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:32 PM

I dont gettit. Anyways, how are the birds related at ALL to Lugia? Does groudon have a connection to Ho-Oh?

Nacon November 8th, 2007 6:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3061412)
I dont gettit. Anyways, how are the birds related at ALL to Lugia? Does groudon have a connection to Ho-Oh?

that's what I want to know..... I don't get how the bird trio is tied into that.... I mean.... there is no mention of it, and the birds are rare, but other trainers do use 'em...

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3061394)
oh about the Dratini thing:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/psydex/147
check out the list of its dex from all the poke-games.

It said "mythical", not "legendary", but it's almost the same. Legendaries are not seen everyday either.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunux (Post 3061399)
Kyogre created the sea, Lugia rules the sea, and Manaphy is just there being the prince maybe a long ancestorial connection to mew. which in turn links mewtwo into it because of the cloning stuff making it also related to all pokemon. Therefore, Mewtwo, mew, kyogre, lugia, and manaphy all have relation to being ruler of the sea. Of course that would not be possible if Palkia wasn't there to create space.

Articuno, Moltres and Zapdos are said to be The three things that guard or whatever from lugia. Why, and how when lugia lives in the sea. Were they meaning to protect from an evil force?

It seems everything is now related to the sea, lol.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:37 PM

Hmmm, let me connect the dots here. Who was created to keep Kyogre and Groudon in check? Rayquaza. Who was created to keep Palkia and Dialga in check? The Three Musketeers (MEsprti, Azlef, Uxie). So in legendaries, it almost looks like there are social classes.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3061427)
Hmmm, let me connect the dots here. Who was created to keep Kyogre and Groudon in check? Rayquaza. Who was created to keep Palkia and Dialga in check? The Three Musketeers (MEsprti, Azlef, Uxie). So in legendaries, it almost looks like there are social classes.

Except that Rayquaza is stronger than Kyogre and Groudon, supposedly. But the pixies are just more in number rather than stronger.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:42 PM

So its almost like a social class, the highest legendaries are Mew and Arceus, Mewtwo was created and Mew took it out, keeping it in check, Rayquaza and the pixies are almost like order keppers, but Mew was dragged out for Mewtwo, in one of the movies, Rayquaza attacks Deoxys because it disrupts the earth, and Celebi helps out the planet, Jirachi is just a cool Poke, the birds and the regis are just rare species, but Regiggigas was made to keep the Regis in check, which is why they are needed to call him, Giratina is just a lost creature, and Darkrai and Cresselia are opposites that fight for power, but dont need supervision.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:45 PM

You missed a few but there are infinite possibilities about the connections. And the start should be: Who started everything? Mew, the ancestor, or Arceus, the god?

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:46 PM

Well arceus hatched out of an egg in a realm of chaos it says, but MEw is the ancester of all Pokemon, which means that in fact Arceus had to make Mew.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 6:50 PM

But we're a bit led by the books about Arceus and such. They don't have to be literal either. For example, its thousand arms. The egg that came to save the world from chaos isn't necessarily the first thing created.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 6:59 PM

As said before, Arceus could have plural forms of being, it could be a thousand armed person one mintue and its current form the next, or the arms are figurative and sare considered to be Pokemon.

Non-Legend November 8th, 2007 7:05 PM

I don't if this will be off topic but I don't think it is, but if humans and pokemon are to live together, than should there be a pokemon that allowed the creation of the relationships? Or would that be Ho-Oh? But it just says that Ho-Oh refuses to come back to earth till there's perfect peace among people and pokemon so that shouldn't mean that he'd be the pokemon in charge of creating the relationships possible between humans and pokemon that was passed down into being a natural thing.

Will anyone even understand this? LOL!

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 7:08 PM

Well Humans harnessed Pokemons power and befriended them through science, i dont think legendaries ahd any part in it.

Non-Legend November 8th, 2007 7:12 PM

Yeah, but it just gets you wondering if there's a seperate god for pokemon than what "being" in the the pokemon world is represented as the creater of humans. That could just be GOD but just saying I wonder how would the pokemon world represent the human "GOD". Maybe that'll be a 5th gen if they make one or not but who knows.

Shiny Umbreon November 8th, 2007 7:15 PM

Not sure if Ho-oh is really as divine. It's the guardian of Raikou, Entei and Suicune, but I think I've heard nothing else, at least in the canon.

Eos Aduro November 8th, 2007 7:19 PM

See, another example of keeping control, Ho-oH over the legendary beasts.

Nacon November 9th, 2007 8:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3061575)
Not sure if Ho-oh is really as divine. It's the guardian of Raikou, Entei and Suicune, but I think I've heard nothing else, at least in the canon.

seriously... there's so much more to Ho-Oh than it seems!... hmmm....

MegaMushroom07 November 9th, 2007 12:42 PM

I don't really have much of a theory for a timeline, but here is what I think of each...

Arceus - Creator of the universe

Shaymin - Flower protector

Darkrai - Tyrannical Pokemon, no 'noble' role. Maybe connected to Giratina.

Giratina - 'Hades' of Pokemon. Possibly connected to Darkrai.

Dialga - Master of time

Palkia - Master of space

Groudon - Creator of land

Kyogre - Creator of water

Raquaza - Protecter of Earth, defends from intruders

Jirachi - Master of dreams/ambition

Deoxys - Alien virus, perhaps enemy of Raquaza.

Celebi - Protector of forest and wildlife

Ho-oh - Protector of the sky

Lugia - Protector of the sea

Entei - Volcano Controller

Suicune - Water Controller

Raikou - Lightning Controlle

Mew - Original Pokemon/No real role

Mewtwo - Team Rocket gone too far.

Nacon November 9th, 2007 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMushroom07 (Post 3063341)
I don't really have much of a theory for a timeline, but here is what I think of each...

Arceus - Creator of the universe

Shaymin - Flower protector

Darkrai - Tyrannical Pokemon, no 'noble' role. Maybe connected to Giratina.

Giratina - 'Hades' of Pokemon. Possibly connected to Darkrai.

Dialga - Master of time

Palkia - Master of space

Groudon - Creator of land

Kyogre - Creator of water

Raquaza - Protecter of Earth, defends from intruders

Jirachi - Master of dreams/ambition

Deoxys - Alien virus, perhaps enemy of Raquaza.

Celebi - Protector of forest and wildlife

Ho-oh - Protector of the sky

Lugia - Protector of the sea

Entei - Volcano Controller

Suicune - Water Controller

Raikou - Lightning Controlle

Mew - Original Pokemon/No real role

Mewtwo - Team Rocket gone too far.



hmmmm.....

what's your take on Manaphy and Phione in this, anyways?

MegaMushroom07 November 9th, 2007 1:21 PM

I don't really think of them as legendary; more as Pokemon that are rare, or almost extinct. Similar to Mew; I don't see Mew as special, I see it as a near-extinct Pokemon, like Aerodactyl.

Shiny Umbreon November 9th, 2007 1:35 PM

Excuse me, but isn't Mew the Pokémon who can learn every single move in the world?

MegaMushroom07 November 9th, 2007 1:41 PM

Wrong. I don't believe it can learn Draco Meteor. Besides, it gains that ability from having a variety of genetic strands.

Live in Color November 9th, 2007 1:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3061215)
And how do you find Giratina anyway? Maybe you travel to another universe when you go through the Spring Path.

And I wanted to say that whoever said it is right, too. Manaphy is the prince, Lugia the guardian and Kyogre the creator but which one is right? What's the definition of "prince" in this context anyway?

'Twas moi. :)

I don't see why all of these legendary Pokemon need to be created to guard everything and crap. Why wasn't one just created to make the world balanced if Pokemon start fighting. If there is more than one of each legendary, then why are only specific ones "Guardians" of whatever. We only see one of each in the movies basically, like Lugia and the sea, and Ho-oh and the sky, just like almost any other Pokemon, would they not fight, like two Squirtles fighting over a Berry? So, how would they keep balance if there is more than one of them, but others are supposed to be put there to keep them in balance, and so on?

Shiny Umbreon November 9th, 2007 1:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMushroom07 (Post 3063525)
Wrong. I don't believe it can learn Draco Meteor. Besides, it gains that ability from having a variety of genetic strands.

It can learn absolutely anything taught through Move Tutor or TMs/HMs.

@Relyt: Not sure what to say. Maybe, for example, Lugia, Kyogre, and Manaphy feel as if they are the kings of the sea, but haven't found the others to start "fighting" over the sea. And I doubt any of them can take of all the sea. Maybe they have divided jobs or something.

MegaMushroom07 November 9th, 2007 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3063502)
Excuse me, but isn't Mew the Pokémon who can learn every single move in the world?

?



I think that it is Kyogre that made the sea, but Lugia controls it. This explains it's Psychic type.

Forci Stikane November 9th, 2007 2:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3061575)
Not sure if Ho-oh is really as divine. It's the guardian of Raikou, Entei and Suicune, but I think I've heard nothing else, at least in the canon.

Raikou, Entei, & Suicune are Pokemon who were reincarnated due to Ho-oh. Reincarnation is, naturally, a divine power, so Ho-oh = divine.

And, to back up to something that wasn't quite answered before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3061280)
I don't know about the Dark Lugia as I haven't completed XD but I believe it was something like an artificial Pokémon.

It was a basic Lugia that had its heart "completely" sealed, giving it absolute powers of darkness...or so was claimed.

EmpoleMew November 9th, 2007 3:58 PM

Okay, my theory is this:

Spoiler:
When the universe came to be, Arceus was hatched from this aforementioned egg. It created Mew to create all other Pokemon. From Mew and Arceus decended Dialga and Palkia to start time flow and shape the planets of the universe. From Dialga decended Celebi who travels through time to keep things in balance and if it meets a pure-hearted person, give them a chance to fix a tragedy. (Reference-Pokemon Chronicles episode Celebi and Joy!) From Palkia decended Groudon and Regigigas. Groudon shaped the land of the earth while Regigigas broke them apart into continents. (Possible Pokemon explaination for the Continental Drift.) Kyogre was created as an opposite to Groudon so that the ocean could be. From Kyogre decended Lugia and Manaphy. After Kyogre and Groudon's struggle for power, when they fell into their sleep, Lugia took over as the ruler of the sea. Manaphy in turn, became next in line in case Lugia were to fall incapable of its job. (Thus the title Prince of the Sea) After this turn of events, Regigigas created Regirock, Registeel, and Regice as beacons if one of these beings were to awaken and overpower the other. Regigigas in turn, fell into a petrified state and could only be awakened by the beacons assembling around him. The Regi trio was scattered in Hoenn's off locations where a disturbance could be detected through that 1/3 of the area. From the power of the beacons, Rayquaza was born as the balance keeper. The Regi trio would send a telepathic alert to Rayquaza if Kyogre and Groudon would fight again. From the Regi trio decended the Legendary Birds and Dogs. Though not serving the same purpose as the beacons, these trios served their own role. The birds would awaken the ruler of the sea, Lugia, if the balance in nature was disrupted. The dogs would awaken Ho-oh if the world should be tainted with evil on an enormous scale. (Colloseum plot anybody?) Ho-oh decended from Mew and Arceus as ruler of the sky and keeper of peace in the world. Thus, the peace keeper Pokemon themselves, the Togepi family line decended from Ho-oh. From Mew decended Cresslia and from Arceus, Darkrai to control the phases of the moon. Cresslia was given the power to create plesant dreams while Darkrai gives out nightmares. Darkrai sometimes got carried away and put people in endless nightmares to please itself. Only Cresslia's Lunar Wing had the power to expel these bad dreams. Heatran was once a common Pokemon but has recently died out and few still exist. (Explaination for Heatran having a gender. However, it was unable to produce eggs due to its species becoming extinct. Ditto could not breed with it because of its akward organ posistions. O.O) At one point, Dialga and Palkia got out of control and the Psy Bros were created as Mew's children. They also represent the greatest qualities of human and Pokemon existance. (Willpower, Wisdom, and Emotions.) Shaymin was created to bring plants into the world. From Shaymin decended the grass type population. Giratina was created to rule the afterlife. When all Pokemon die, their spirits go to Turnback Cave and live in the alternate dimension. From Giratina and the souls of deceased Pokemon decended the ghost type. Mewtwo was one of the two human-made Pokemon, the other being Porygon and its upgrades. (Pun intended)


I may have missed a few but that's my theory.

Nacon November 9th, 2007 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpoleMew (Post 3063860)
Okay, my theory is this:

Spoiler:
When the universe came to be, Arceus was hatched from this aforementioned egg. It created Mew to create all other Pokemon. From Mew and Arceus decended Dialga and Palkia to start time flow and shape the planets of the universe. From Dialga decended Celebi who travels through time to keep things in balance and if it meets a pure-hearted person, give them a chance to fix a tragedy. (Reference-Pokemon Chronicles episode Celebi and Joy!) From Palkia decended Groudon and Regigigas. Groudon shaped the land of the earth while Regigigas broke them apart into continents. (Possible Pokemon explaination for the Continental Drift.) Kyogre was created as an opposite to Groudon so that the ocean could be. From Kyogre decended Lugia and Manaphy. After Kyogre and Groudon's struggle for power, when they fell into their sleep, Lugia took over as the ruler of the sea. Manaphy in turn, became next in line in case Lugia were to fall incapable of its job. (Thus the title Prince of the Sea) After this turn of events, Regigigas created Regirock, Registeel, and Regice as beacons if one of these beings were to awaken and overpower the other. Regigigas in turn, fell into a petrified state and could only be awakened by the beacons assembling around him. The Regi trio was scattered in Hoenn's off locations where a disturbance could be detected through that 1/3 of the area. From the power of the beacons, Rayquaza was born as the balance keeper. The Regi trio would send a telepathic alert to Rayquaza if Kyogre and Groudon would fight again. From the Regi trio decended the Legendary Birds and Dogs. Though not serving the same purpose as the beacons, these trios served their own role. The birds would awaken the ruler of the sea, Lugia, if the balance in nature was disrupted. The dogs would awaken Ho-oh if the world should be tainted with evil on an enormous scale. (Colloseum plot anybody?) Ho-oh decended from Mew and Arceus as ruler of the sky and keeper of peace in the world. Thus, the peace keeper Pokemon themselves, the Togepi family line decended from Ho-oh. From Mew decended Cresslia and from Arceus, Darkrai to control the phases of the moon. Cresslia was given the power to create plesant dreams while Darkrai gives out nightmares. Darkrai sometimes got carried away and put people in endless nightmares to please itself. Only Cresslia's Lunar Wing had the power to expel these bad dreams. Heatran was once a common Pokemon but has recently died out and few still exist. (Explaination for Heatran having a gender. However, it was unable to produce eggs due to its species becoming extinct. Ditto could not breed with it because of its akward organ posistions. O.O) At one point, Dialga and Palkia got out of control and the Psy Bros were created as Mew's children. They also represent the greatest qualities of human and Pokemon existance. (Willpower, Wisdom, and Emotions.) Shaymin was created to bring plants into the world. From Shaymin decended the grass type population. Giratina was created to rule the afterlife. When all Pokemon die, their spirits go to Turnback Cave and live in the alternate dimension. From Giratina and the souls of deceased Pokemon decended the ghost type. Mewtwo was one of the two human-made Pokemon, the other being Porygon and its upgrades. (Pun intended)


I may have missed a few but that's my theory.

eh.... I dunno know.. why do you feel that all these pokemon literally are all tied together.... I mean.. these legends could be tied to each region.

In Sinnoh, I don't hear anything about Mew, in Kanto you don't hear about Ray, and so on.... however.. in Hoenn and Kanto... you can see Ho-Oh and Lugia, as well as Deoxys... hmmm.

Shiny Umbreon November 9th, 2007 4:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3064027)
eh.... I dunno know.. why do you feel that all these pokemon literally are all tied together.... I mean.. these legends could be tied to each region.

In Sinnoh, I don't hear anything about Mew, in Kanto you don't hear about Ray, and so on.... however.. in Hoenn and Kanto... you can see Ho-Oh and Lugia, as well as Deoxys... hmmm.

That's actually in the Sevii Islands. It's just that you can go there from Hoenn.

Nacon November 9th, 2007 4:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3064032)
That's actually in the Sevii Islands. It's just that you can go there from Hoenn.

oh yea... good call.... I didn't think about that for a moment.

Live in Color November 9th, 2007 6:36 PM

Why does everyone keep leaving out Latias and Latios? What's their position in being legendary. From the movie it is understood that they are a rare Pokemon, but can breed to make more of their species.

Eos Aduro November 9th, 2007 8:33 PM

Latios had a father in the movie if Im corect, meaning not legendaries, just powerfull and rare.

Live in Color November 10th, 2007 4:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight Winged (Post 3065008)
Latios had a father in the movie if Im corect, meaning not legendaries, just powerfull and rare.

And yet they are classified as legendary.

Also didn't one of the Frontier Brains use an Articuno to battle Ash's Charizard? Would that have been a second Articuno, because I doubt it can fly fast enough to get around the world in seconds...

Xoo November 10th, 2007 5:12 AM

Me too, but I'm kinda leaning toward two Articuno. But, there have been multiple Latios before, so...

MegaMushroom07 November 10th, 2007 7:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpoleMew (Post 3063860)
Okay, my theory is this:

Spoiler:
When the universe came to be, Arceus was hatched from this aforementioned egg. It created Mew to create all other Pokemon. From Mew and Arceus decended Dialga and Palkia to start time flow and shape the planets of the universe. From Dialga decended Celebi who travels through time to keep things in balance and if it meets a pure-hearted person, give them a chance to fix a tragedy. (Reference-Pokemon Chronicles episode Celebi and Joy!) From Palkia decended Groudon and Regigigas. Groudon shaped the land of the earth while Regigigas broke them apart into continents. (Possible Pokemon explaination for the Continental Drift.) Kyogre was created as an opposite to Groudon so that the ocean could be. From Kyogre decended Lugia and Manaphy. After Kyogre and Groudon's struggle for power, when they fell into their sleep, Lugia took over as the ruler of the sea. Manaphy in turn, became next in line in case Lugia were to fall incapable of its job. (Thus the title Prince of the Sea) After this turn of events, Regigigas created Regirock, Registeel, and Regice as beacons if one of these beings were to awaken and overpower the other. Regigigas in turn, fell into a petrified state and could only be awakened by the beacons assembling around him. The Regi trio was scattered in Hoenn's off locations where a disturbance could be detected through that 1/3 of the area. From the power of the beacons, Rayquaza was born as the balance keeper. The Regi trio would send a telepathic alert to Rayquaza if Kyogre and Groudon would fight again. From the Regi trio decended the Legendary Birds and Dogs. Though not serving the same purpose as the beacons, these trios served their own role. The birds would awaken the ruler of the sea, Lugia, if the balance in nature was disrupted. The dogs would awaken Ho-oh if the world should be tainted with evil on an enormous scale. (Colloseum plot anybody?) Ho-oh decended from Mew and Arceus as ruler of the sky and keeper of peace in the world. Thus, the peace keeper Pokemon themselves, the Togepi family line decended from Ho-oh. From Mew decended Cresslia and from Arceus, Darkrai to control the phases of the moon. Cresslia was given the power to create plesant dreams while Darkrai gives out nightmares. Darkrai sometimes got carried away and put people in endless nightmares to please itself. Only Cresslia's Lunar Wing had the power to expel these bad dreams. Heatran was once a common Pokemon but has recently died out and few still exist. (Explaination for Heatran having a gender. However, it was unable to produce eggs due to its species becoming extinct. Ditto could not breed with it because of its akward organ posistions. O.O) At one point, Dialga and Palkia got out of control and the Psy Bros were created as Mew's children. They also represent the greatest qualities of human and Pokemon existance. (Willpower, Wisdom, and Emotions.) Shaymin was created to bring plants into the world. From Shaymin decended the grass type population. Giratina was created to rule the afterlife. When all Pokemon die, their spirits go to Turnback Cave and live in the alternate dimension. From Giratina and the souls of deceased Pokemon decended the ghost type. Mewtwo was one of the two human-made Pokemon, the other being Porygon and its upgrades. (Pun intended)


I may have missed a few but that's my theory.

I'm sure that this is from gamespot...

Shiny Umbreon November 10th, 2007 7:45 AM

OK. This is a little offtopic. Rather than just defining each legendary's supposed occupation, we should be doubting about some.

For example, I don't know if Manaphy can do something special, but I think it can't. And Lugia is, well, a Psychic-type with Water-type moves but not really something important for the sea. On the other hand, I do believe Kyogre has control over the water. We've seen a lot in R/S/E.

MegaMushroom07 November 10th, 2007 7:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3066710)
OK. This is a little offtopic. Rather than just defining each legendary's supposed occupation, we should be doubting about some.

For example, I don't know if Manaphy can do something special, but I think it can't. And Lugia is, well, a Psychic-type with Water-type moves but not really something important for the sea. On the other hand, I do believe Kyogre has control over the water. We've seen a lot in R/S/E.

I think that Kyogre made the water, Lugia controls the sea, whilst Suicune is responsible for purifying it.

Nacon November 10th, 2007 11:19 AM

I still don't get why you guys feel or think that all the legends tie into a global think in the pokemon universe....

I still really feel that these legends are regional.

Shiny Umbreon November 10th, 2007 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3067448)
I still don't get why you guys feel or think that all the legends tie into a global think in the pokemon universe....

I still really feel that these legends are regional.

Well, that's not applicable in some cases. How can Kyogre create only part of the sea (the one in Hoenn). If he made the sea, who made the rest of the sea?

That's just an example. But I agree that in some cases, Pokémon can't take care of all the world.

Nacon November 10th, 2007 12:05 PM

regions= different mythologies.... why would Kyogre be so important in R\S\E and yet not mentioned in LGFR or D\P

Shiny Umbreon November 10th, 2007 12:11 PM

Good point.

But does this mean that, if nobody in Kanto mentions Kyogre, it's not true that it really made the sea?

So Kyogre and Groudon's powers are most likely just imaginary.

Nacon November 10th, 2007 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3067664)
Good point.

But does this mean that, if nobody in Kanto mentions Kyogre, it's not true that it really made the sea?

So Kyogre and Groudon's powers are most likely just imaginary.

if you want to get scientific about it.....

Kyogre and Groudon are a physical depiction of the constant changes in the land and sea.
Erosion makes oceans seem bigger at the expense of land, and land has constant eruptions and tectonic movements that alter the land masses. In my opinion, because of their powers and abillities, people (of the Hoenn region) feel that they are godlike.

Groudon, like I said, represents changes in landmass, his abillity causes Sunny Day to go into effect, and we all know that hot sunlight evaporates water. Its moveset and abillities go to show that it can impact the land... but even a Diglett impacts the changes in land with the tunnels it digs...

Kyogre represents changes in oceanfront, and his abillity causes it to Rain constantly. We all know how rain redistrubutes moisture and creates puddles in the land. Its moveset even goes to show that it impacts changes in the water, but all it really does in terms of the water is shift it around... but even a Magikarp shifts the water when it splashes.

Groudon and Kyogre are a check and balance to eachother, and as a result, depict the cycle of land mass changes and oceanfront changes.

Rayquaza, I know I have to mention him to get this to work, is a powerful depiction of the constantness of SKY.... not matter how much it rains, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes... no matter how these things change the surface, the SKY still looks the same. Rayquaza is a powerful pokemon that depicts the constant steadiness of the sky. When it battled with Deoxys, it was battling an extraterrestial being, and that is similar to how our planet's atmosphere burns down meteors, and even deflects them. Its moveset revolves around elemental aspects of the sky. And besides... even if it is raining, if one was to go further up, ABOVE the clouds, the skies are clear.

I mean, in the literal sense... what are Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza? They are an Armadillo, a Whale, and a Chinese Dragon (the snake like, flying appearance versus the Medieval Europe Lizard like appearance similar to Salamence). These creatures themselves are capable of things out of the typical. I know that comparing a Chinese Dragon in terms of realism fails because it is a mythological creature, but an Armadillo... it's a very durable animal that can survive in various conditions, and a Whale, well... it's a mammal that lives at sea, it is vast in terms of its appetite, and it constatly travels all over the world.


Mythology and Religion create explanations to things that we don't quite understand until science comes into effect and these pokes are so powerful that the ancestors felt they were godlike.... and we definitely saw that when they battled, the way it impacted that part of the world.



In the real world, some religions feel that certain animals are depictions of things, sacred, and possess holy abillities..... like Cats in Egypt being guardians of the underworld... Cows possessing the womb of life... and so on... and yet, once again, these were regional beliefs.... in one part of the world, we're slicing up cows to make meats, in another part, we pray to them... hmm....

Shiny Umbreon November 12th, 2007 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3067782)
if you want to get scientific about it.....

Kyogre and Groudon are a physical depiction of the constant changes in the land and sea.
Erosion makes oceans seem bigger at the expense of land, and land has constant eruptions and tectonic movements that alter the land masses. In my opinion, because of their powers and abillities, people (of the Hoenn region) feel that they are godlike.

Groudon, like I said, represents changes in landmass, his abillity causes Sunny Day to go into effect, and we all know that hot sunlight evaporates water. Its moveset and abillities go to show that it can impact the land... but even a Diglett impacts the changes in land with the tunnels it digs...

Kyogre represents changes in oceanfront, and his abillity causes it to Rain constantly. We all know how rain redistrubutes moisture and creates puddles in the land. Its moveset even goes to show that it impacts changes in the water, but all it really does in terms of the water is shift it around... but even a Magikarp shifts the water when it splashes.

Groudon and Kyogre are a check and balance to eachother, and as a result, depict the cycle of land mass changes and oceanfront changes.

Rayquaza, I know I have to mention him to get this to work, is a powerful depiction of the constantness of SKY.... not matter how much it rains, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes... no matter how these things change the surface, the SKY still looks the same. Rayquaza is a powerful pokemon that depicts the constant steadiness of the sky. When it battled with Deoxys, it was battling an extraterrestial being, and that is similar to how our planet's atmosphere burns down meteors, and even deflects them. Its moveset revolves around elemental aspects of the sky. And besides... even if it is raining, if one was to go further up, ABOVE the clouds, the skies are clear.

I mean, in the literal sense... what are Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza? They are an Armadillo, a Whale, and a Chinese Dragon (the snake like, flying appearance versus the Medieval Europe Lizard like appearance similar to Salamence). These creatures themselves are capable of things out of the typical. I know that comparing a Chinese Dragon in terms of realism fails because it is a mythological creature, but an Armadillo... it's a very durable animal that can survive in various conditions, and a Whale, well... it's a mammal that lives at sea, it is vast in terms of its appetite, and it constatly travels all over the world.


Mythology and Religion create explanations to things that we don't quite understand until science comes into effect and these pokes are so powerful that the ancestors felt they were godlike.... and we definitely saw that when they battled, the way it impacted that part of the world.



In the real world, some religions feel that certain animals are depictions of things, sacred, and possess holy abillities..... like Cats in Egypt being guardians of the underworld... Cows possessing the womb of life... and so on... and yet, once again, these were regional beliefs.... in one part of the world, we're slicing up cows to make meats, in another part, we pray to them... hmm....

That'd be okay if we had seen cats or cows do something special in the real world. They don't summon rain or sunlight, right?

Nacon November 12th, 2007 5:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3076185)
That'd be okay if we had seen cats or cows do something special in the real world. They don't summon rain or sunlight, right?

yea... last time I checked....none of my 3 cats did much of ANYTHING.. except puke, purr, vomit, eat and sleep....

I figured I'd use those as examples to support the region- based mythology theory.

Shiny Umbreon November 12th, 2007 5:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3076190)
yea... last time I checked....none of my 3 cats did much of ANYTHING.. except puke, purr, vomit, eat and sleep....

I figured I'd use those as examples to support the region- based mythology theory.

OK. I agree with that. Probably Sandslash doesn't get that much attention in Kanto but Groudon is a god-like beast in Hoenn. Except that Groudon does have some sort of power.

But I'm thinking about Latias. It could supposedly become invisible and everything, but it's just a special something (what was it? down?). Maybe Kyogre and Groudon do have some power (they're big and powerful, at least) and people have started to exaggerate about it and treat them as what the legends say they are.

Nacon November 12th, 2007 5:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3076209)
OK. I agree with that. Probably Sandslash doesn't get that much attention in Kanto but Groudon is a god-like beast in Hoenn. Except that Groudon does have some sort of power.

But I'm thinking about Latias. It could supposedly become invisible and everything, but it's just a special something (what was it? down?). Maybe Kyogre and Groudon do have some power (they're big and powerful, at least) and people have started to exaggerate about it and treat them as what the legends say they are.

yea very true... because legends are founded on some truth... time does have a tendency to distort things.

think about in our world, how Achilles was such a great, seemingly invincible warrior.

Shiny Umbreon November 12th, 2007 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3076219)
think about in our world, how Achilles was such a great, seemingly invincible warrior.

Sorry, what's that? I don't know.

Nacon November 12th, 2007 5:36 PM

a great warrior, the Hero of the Trojan war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles

"Achilles has the attributes of being the most handsome of the heroes assembled at Troy,[1] as well as the quickest. Central to his myth is his relationship with Patroclus, characterized in different sources as either deep friendship or passionate love.

Later legends (beginning with a poem by Statius in the first century AD) state that Achilles was invulnerable on all of his body except for his heel. These legends state that Achilles was killed in battle by an arrow to the heel, and so an Achilles' heel has come to mean a person's only weakness. Achilles' death came in retribution for a sacrilege he had previously committed, his decapitation of Troilus upon an altar-omphalos of Apollo."


Greek Mythology.... some of my favorite... lol.

Shiny Umbreon November 12th, 2007 5:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nacon (Post 3076236)
a great warrior, the Hero of the Trojan war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles

"Achilles has the attributes of being the most handsome of the heroes assembled at Troy,[1] as well as the quickest. Central to his myth is his relationship with Patroclus, characterized in different sources as either deep friendship or passionate love.

Later legends (beginning with a poem by Statius in the first century AD) state that Achilles was invulnerable on all of his body except for his heel. These legends state that Achilles was killed in battle by an arrow to the heel, and so an Achilles' heel has come to mean a person's only weakness. Achilles' death came in retribution for a sacrilege he had previously committed, his decapitation of Troilus upon an altar-omphalos of Apollo."


Greek Mythology.... some of my favorite... lol.

Lol, I knew about him. Just that I couldn't identify the name in English. At first, I thought it was an animal or something. XD

Nacon November 12th, 2007 5:39 PM

oh alrighty... haha... it happens....

that's another example in terms of legends.... mistranslations can turn a "mighty" warrior into a "descendant of God" warrior

Shiny Umbreon November 12th, 2007 5:44 PM

Okay, then should we accept that Kygore and Groudon (and Rayquaza maybe) have some sort of scientifically-provable power that everyone in Hoenn think is some sort of divine powers? And I guess this can be true for some others, too.

Nacon November 12th, 2007 5:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiny Umbreon (Post 3076269)
Okay, then should we accept that Kygore and Groudon (and Rayquaza maybe) have some sort of scientifically-provable power that everyone in Hoenn think is some sort of divine powers? And I guess this can be true for some others, too.

you know what... yea... I agree with that..

These 3 pokes have power and strength that can impact the land and water while I still feel strongly that Rayquaza depicts the constantness of the skies.

besides... the word Divine does not necessarily mean "godlike"... it can
also mean "of superhuman or surpassing excellence"... that's what the dictionary states.

these pokemon are significantly powerful, more powerful than humans and a capable of free-thought, or at least not giving into human requests.

EvanMiesterX November 13th, 2007 2:18 PM

well here is my idea on arceus and its plates... well, arceus apparently created the universe with its thousand arms. maybe arceus had a thousand arms, maybe it was more powerful, and maybe it had enough power to create the universe, but it was too powerful. it had to stop itself from becoming too powerful, because power leads to evilness (i think) and so it took its power and transferred them into plates, which enchanted them. one plate for every type, one plate for every thing that he created. so it might have, at one point, been every type, much stronger, and much more powerful. as for mew and arceus, maybe mew created arceus at the same time arceus created the universe. it would have been like this: mew creates arceus as arceus creates mew, along with the universe. thats just what i think...

Shiny Umbreon November 13th, 2007 2:23 PM

"Power leads to evil"? That's true for humanity only, I think.

I'm not sure if Arceus and Mew can exist in the same theory, but, really, Arceus making the world? There's no such thing. I know its power it's now divided in plates but it's just something that will never happen, in my opinion.

Pokemon Diamond November 13th, 2007 2:25 PM

Palkia, Dialga, and the 3 Spirits would go into space and make a real Pokemon world. Day by day, children/adults/seniors would go to the Pokemon Island to start a pokemon journey.

Shiny Umbreon November 13th, 2007 2:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokemon Diamond (Post 3078517)
Palkia, Dialga, and the 3 Spirits would go into space and make a real Pokemon world. Day by day, children/adults/seniors would go to the Pokemon Island to start a pokemon journey.

Sorry, but what are you talking about?

MegaMushroom07 November 13th, 2007 3:06 PM

Mmmm......I think Arceus' plates have some significance...as if it's power was shattered...

Pokemon Diamond, I don't understand. Your post makes no sense at all.


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