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-   -   4th Gen Legends - Real or not? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=114650)

Zungie December 5th, 2007 11:46 AM

I'm with Gofre(as usual xD) on Kyogre and Groundon. There are only few pokémon that learn secies specific moves.
And cudos to Eirikr for compiling a good concrete post.
Although a bit of feedback:
• I agree with Mew, it's just I believe that he's INCREDIBLY powerfull!

• We say alot about Arceus, but like you say, ALOT if not ALL of it is myth or personal theories. Pokédex entries thoguh.. I know I take most, if not all of it in, as being factual. As the 'Dex is a scientific invention, and science is based on facts, it's only wise (in my eyes) to take it as mostly factual.

• Lugia, Lugia, Lugia.. You only have to look at it's in-game stat.'s to know it's special. I personally wrekon that Lugia is almost God-like, just not as powerfull as the likes of Arceus! I've never REALLY considered Lugia as Lord of the Sea, but somwhat even more special. If you take it's species specific move, Aeroblast; it wouldn't be used in the sea that's for sure, so does this mean a donination of the sky in some way? I know that Aeroblast is the only concrete eveidence, and some of you might not see it as plausable, but it's worth a think.

• Ho-Oh is my favourite pokémon for that specific reason; it's the most mythilogiacal pokémon out there! I always like to think that he's outrageously powerfull, even without justification. Also he was the first legendary ever to appear in the Anime, but took a while to hit out game boy's.

• Giratina is competing for Ho-Oh's spot! Maybe for future games to come, 'eh?

That's all for now!
Regards, Zungie.

PS. Since when have I acted as I've owned this thread?
I've just took a great interest in it, and if you're refering to something I said earlier, it was a gag between me and Gofre..

El Gofre December 5th, 2007 11:55 AM

Yeah wen we say we own the thread, its uz we've posted more on it than most other people (Me in particular lol)

I get confuddled when it comes to giratina, it says its the renegade poke but theres no info on why it is

:O sudden revelation.

Its the god/devil situation; Arceus has always been god, but giratina, and extremely powerful poke wanted a special duty like the ither legends, or wasnt happy with his own. He then went off like lucifer (Hence the renegade) and tried to overthrow arceus. Arceus the beat his ass and sent him off to his paralell world to live alone.

Just a quick thought, gimme feedback people

By gofre, the metaphorical owner of this thread. :D

Eirikr December 5th, 2007 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gofre (Post 3145006)
Yeah thankyou Lt, some concrete that mew is the ancestor not god :)
But i stand by that kyogre/groudon shaped the land. They only get rain dance/sunny day cuz would it be wise to give kyogre something that makes him even stronger? its the only viable ability thats inkeeping with the story without making them next to invincible.

True, but, consider this. It is said in Myth Mention and atleast some new Island should have poped up or a Flood of a Town, which is not beyond programming, could have been done to prove this.
Unless we get a GenIII remake, or a Wii game in the spirit of XD proves this, any Land/Sea formation is personal canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zungie (Post 3145126)
And cudos to Eirikr for compiling a good concrete post.
Although a bit of feedback:
• I agree with Mew, it's just I believe that he's INCREDIBLY powerfull!

Thanks, it took me 2 hours going through Pokedex entries.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zungie (Post 3145126)
• We say alot about Arceus, but like you say, ALOT if not ALL of it is myth or personal theories. Pokédex entries thoguh.. I know I take most, if not all of it in, as being factual. As the 'Dex is a scientific invention, and science is based on facts, it's only wise (in my eyes) to take it as mostly factual.

Which is where most misconception comes from on Legends, the Dex never states abilities or events if "Myth Mentioned" which realy makes me want to edit Bulbapedia and put up a new page. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zungie (Post 3145126)
• Lugia, Lugia, Lugia.. You only have to look at it's in-game stat.'s to know it's special. I personally wrekon that Lugia is almost God-like, just not as powerfull as the likes of Arceus! I've never REALLY considered Lugia as Lord of the Sea, but somwhat even more special. If you take it's species specific move, Aeroblast; it wouldn't be used in the sea that's for sure, so does this mean a donination of the sky in some way? I know that Aeroblast is the only concrete eveidence, and some of you might not see it as plausable, but it's worth a think.

Raikou and Jirachi contredict this thought. Raikou's Thunderbolt has been around forever, does that make Raichu, Magneton and Starmie legendary? Of course not. Same goes with Jirachi, Umbreon and Wish. Yes, Aeroblast is a specific move, making it somewhat different circumstances, but it is already extremely powerful, stated by the 'dex as fact. The term "God" is realy inappropriate to use, especialy with Deoxys, Arceus, Palkia, Dialga and Giratina in existance, were are not to know if they are their area's Pidgey and Rattata. That would make an interesting story though, where those 5 are the commoners, and more abstract pokemon are the rarities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zungie (Post 3145126)

• Ho-Oh is my favourite pokémon for that specific reason; it's the most mythilogiacal pokémon out there! I always like to think that he's outrageously powerfull, even without justification. Also he was the first legendary ever to appear in the Anime, but took a while to hit out game boy's.

I also quite like Ho-Oh, it has a very attractive design and very powerful both ingame and competitively. Also in the ANIME it has special significance, as does it in the myths and legends of Johto. Due to Ho-Oh's legends being somewhat newer than the rest, but again, not concrete. This age factor creates good debate for Ho-Oh's actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zungie (Post 3145126)
I'm with Gofre(as usual xD) on Kyogre and Groundon. There are only few pokémon that learn secies specific moves.

Which I have already touched. Something does make me want to say all Legendaries with Specific moves, and are of our world, are the original offshoots of Mew. But that'd be personal Canon.

Sorry if I sound like I am biting anyones head off, I like this thread as it is very interesting, so I came here first after waking up. :P

Diageo December 6th, 2007 5:26 AM

Once again i agree with Eirikr, its like he replies to ppl what i want to tell them but just dont know how, not saying ur just thinking up what im thinking its just that i find everything you say very factual and true. I cant really contribute anymore cuz u keep saying everything i wanna say but better :(

Zungie December 6th, 2007 8:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gofre (Post 3145140)
...
:O sudden revelation.

Its the god/devil situation; Arceus has always been god, but giratina, and extremely powerful poke wanted a special duty like the ither legends, or wasnt happy with his own. He then went off like lucifer (Hence the renegade) and tried to overthrow arceus. Arceus the beat his ass and sent him off to his paralell world to live alone.

Just a quick thought, gimme feedback people

By gofre, the metaphorical owner of this thread. :D

And I am your sidekick! :P

Sounds highly plausable. Disregarding what Eirikr said (sorry >.<), with Arceus being "God", obviously you'd get some jealous/envious pokémon as you do with humans. Maybe this is Giratina trying to get back into the living world? I hope Game Freak base alot of the next game on him, he's uber cool!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diageo (Post 3146923)
Once again i agree with Eirikr, its like he replies to ppl what i want to tell them but just dont know how, not saying ur just thinking up what im thinking its just that i find everything you say very factual and true. I cant really contribute anymore cuz u keep saying everything i wanna say but better :(

Don't flame.
:l
Only post if you have something to add, as I don't want anyone banned etc.

Also thanks for replying Eirikr! :D

Diageo December 6th, 2007 8:59 AM

That wasnt flaming, i was agreeing with him....

The pokedex can state myths that arent fact even if it is a scientific product... If myths are all they know then they have to put it in. Better than leaving it blank...

Teamtyranitar December 6th, 2007 1:25 PM

Ok i checked serbii this rasie more questons In the pokedex in pearl
it was born before the universe was
Arceus
Diamond It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.

Pearl It is told in mythology that this Pokémon was born before the universe even existed.
Kyroge
Its the creator of the sea

Ruby KYOGRE has the power to create massive rain clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. This POKéMON saved people who were suffering from droughts.

Sapphire KYOGRE is named in mythology as the POKéMON that expanded the sea by covering the land with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. It took to sleep after a cataclysmic battle with GROUDON.

Emerald KYOGRE has appeared in mythology as the creator of the sea. After long years of feuding with GROUDON, it took to sleep at the bottom of the sea.

Fire Red This POKéMON is said to have expanded the sea by bringing heavy rains. It has the power to control water
.
Leaf Green This POKéMON is said to have expanded the sea by bringing heavy rains. It has the power to control water.

Phione
is it a legend im not sure it breeds from manphy

Eirikr December 6th, 2007 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teamtyranitar (Post 3147605)
Ok i checked serbii this rasie more questons In the pokedex in pearl
it was born before the universe was
Arceus
Diamond It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.

Pearl It is told in mythology that this Pokémon was born before the universe even existed.
Kyroge
Its the creator of the sea

Ruby KYOGRE has the power to create massive rain clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. This POKéMON saved people who were suffering from droughts. Nothing there about sea creation

Sapphire KYOGRE is named in mythology as the POKéMON that expanded the sea by covering the land with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. It took to sleep after a cataclysmic battle with GROUDON.

Emerald KYOGRE has appeared in mythology as the creator of the sea. After long years of feuding with GROUDON, it took to sleep at the bottom of the sea.

Fire Red This POKéMON is said to have expanded the sea by bringing heavy rains. It has the power to control water
.
Leaf Green This POKéMON is said to have expanded the sea by bringing heavy rains. It has the power to control water.

Phione
is it a legend im not sure it breeds from manphy
Phione, the Sea Drifter Pokemon
Diamond
A Pokémon that lives in warm seas. It inflates the flotation sac on its head to drift and search for food.
Pearl
A Pokémon that lives in warm seas. It inflates the flotation sac on its head to drift and search for food.

Bolded parts in quote are my comment. Getting lazy now :P Acanine http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Arcanine_(Pokémon) has more Legendary attributes associated with it in factual pokedex entries than Phione / Manaphy. Hell, even Ninetales http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ninetales non factual ones make it sound more like a candidate for Legendary than Phione / Manaphy.

Umanouski December 6th, 2007 4:46 PM

I think the PokeDex only adds bits and pieces to our understanding. What if you combined all parts? If you do, it all makes sense if you do.

Eirikr December 6th, 2007 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umanouski (Post 3148112)
I think the PokeDex only adds bits and pieces to our understanding. What if you combined all parts? If you do, it all makes sense if you do.

Not enough to take as fact. It is highly dubious as a resource to take seriously for the events a species has been involved in, or thier special qualities, when the wording is as if it is a report on a myth.

Blaziken_Boy December 6th, 2007 5:03 PM

The arm thing with Arceus is, I believe, the fact that the universe is his arms, which explains why there's just sockets where his arms should be.

Umanouski December 6th, 2007 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eirikr (Post 3148132)
Not enough to take as fact. It is highly dubious as a resource to take seriously for the events a species has been involved in, or thier special qualities, when the wording is as if it is a report on a myth.

like good writers, they leave a fair amount to your personal imaginative skill. (I used big words...TeeHEE)

Eirikr December 6th, 2007 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Umanouski (Post 3148170)
like good writers, they leave a fair amount to your personal imaginative skill. (I used big words...TeeHEE)

The pokedex is not a work of fiction, it is a scientific research book. Comprehension skills are realy needed when reading the Legendaries 'dex entries.

El Gofre December 7th, 2007 2:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eirikr (Post 3149010)
The pokedex is not a work of fiction, it is a scientific research book. Comprehension skills are realy needed when reading the Legendaries 'dex entries.

You say this, but there's only so much fact you can get. The reason legendry pokemon are legendry is because their stories have been passed down over the ages. These stories would have appeared in the first place if humanity stumbled upon arceus (Which they probably did, they built a temple around him) and arceus would then tell them about the creation of the world so humans didnt see pokes as a threat. Its like mirage island; It is said to appear, legend has it. There is no in-game proof of its existence until you see it yourself. To me the pokedex is like the bible, qur'an or any other religious book; You believe it because of its supposed importance. There are many other things to be discovered, a pokedex entry shouldnt be percieved as the concrete truth. Perhaps in future games there will be concrete explainations, but until then don't doubt the legends the games are based around merely because they keep an unbiased viewpoint.

Conclusion; All legends come from somewhere, the pokedex isnt necersarily right. The legends are more fun anway :)

lucario072 December 9th, 2007 7:04 PM

but also whats the deal with regigigas? is it like a fusion or something like that?

Shiny December 9th, 2007 10:26 PM

Lucario072, Regigigas is a fusion of the three other Regi's. In order to get it you must have the three other regi's (Rock, Ice & Steel) in your team

SytheXP December 10th, 2007 6:24 AM

Mew: The Ancestor of all pokemon I believe created arceus through psychic abilities most likely

Arceus: Created Palkia and Dialga who formed the Sinnoh, now with a new region I believe Palkia and Dialga were kinda lonely so mew assisted them and created the fossil pokes such as omanyte,kabuto,aerodactyl,cranidos,lileep, etc. which eventually made their desendants we catch today.

Palkia/Dialga: SImply created the Area of Life.

Garatina mistakingly traveled through the parallel universe into this new one.

Mewtwo created by science to be the ULTIMATE fighting machine based on the original pokemon mew.

Groudon and Kyogre were godly pokes created by mew to expand upon what Palkia and Dialga had created

Kyogre started in sinnoh and made it rain creating the waters

Groudon started in sinnoh with his eruption move and started making new isles and apparently he can fly/is larger than life and could easily walk over/fly over the large oceans created by Kyogre and thus they had a war for dominance where they eventually fell into a slumber after creating 3 region through their war(Hoenn,Johto,Kanto)

Mew who is obviously the father of all saw that there was no order and appointed Lugia guardian of the seas and made articuno,zapdos,and moltres to help keep him under control, He made Celebi to keep balance in nature, Ho-Oh was created due to the deaths of Entei,Suicune and Raikou who were created imo to help keep the new world peaceful and make sure there was no pollutants and to also expand upon what Kyogre/Groudon ahd already done. Azelf, Uxie and Mesprit were protectors as well just of the Sinnoh region. Heatran I cant explain except being a strong force that turned into a mountain expanding upon the sinnoh region. Rotom was created later and was simply a result of electricity of the later pokes.

Being as I have confused myself I will make a simple diagram

Mew>Arceus>Palkia/Dialga>Groudon/Kyogre>Ancient Pokes>Sinnoh Legendaries>Other Hoeen legendaries>Johto Legendaries>Kanto Legendaris>Humans/kanto pokes>Mewtwo>Johto pokes>Hoenn pokes>Sinnoh pokes Its quite confusing

El Gofre December 10th, 2007 8:07 AM

Lucario/Kero; Regigigas isnt a fusion of the 3. It is thought he created the regis to embody their respective elements.

Sythe; Mostly right, however arceus created mew and not vice-versa. Arceus came out the egg in the chaos and then created the D/P, who shaped the universe. Then came Kyogre/Groudon to shape the earth and so on. Mew was placed on the fully formed planet to populate it, hence the term ancestor.

Umanouski December 10th, 2007 2:20 PM

Think here. Could they all be prehistoric species (more prehistoric than areodactyl and kabutops and all those) and are the last of their kind? That would explain the fact that they are just pokemon. Remember, they are stories past down, probably not actual facts.

El Gofre December 10th, 2007 2:29 PM

This is similar to a theory I posted a few weeks back. I reasoned that while the legends with specific roles are 1 of a kind (Hence their immortality), Mew was the first speceis (I.e ancestor poke). The whole planet was crawling with them, some lived in the sea (And evolved into water types), others lived in the desert and evolved into grnd and so on. After a while natural selection kicked in and the mews were wiped out, apart from the one who found the island in the sevii chain and lived there alone, not needing to evolve.

It makes sense, mew in genetically matched to every other poke, they should all derive from him.

Diageo December 10th, 2007 2:47 PM

If dialga/palkia are so powerful to create other pokes, why cant u use that great power when u catch them? Why cant u travel through time or teleport? Why cant you make huge waves with kyogres or create landmasses to cross the sea with groundoun with the power they supposedly have?

I believe they are strong pokemon people believe created the world, but since they cant prove it since they werent there, theres no way of actually knowing. Anyway, legendaries are rare powerfull pokemon,but i dont believe they created the universe...

Umanouski December 10th, 2007 2:48 PM

good point. But how do you describe the other pokemon that are supposed to be more ancient? Such as Arceus?

El Gofre December 10th, 2007 2:55 PM

Arceus is the pokemon god, he appeared out of nothing just like the christian god.
[QUOTE=Diageo;3159925]If dialga/palkia are so powerful to create other pokes, why cant u use that great power when u catch them? Why cant u travel through time or teleport? Why cant you make huge waves with kyogres or create landmasses to cross the sea with groundoun with the power they supposedly have?
QUOTE]

Would this seriously be realistic in the game? how would you plan on incorporating time travel into, compared to other releases, a low tech game. If you want a pokemon answer perhaps the 3 elves stripped them of their power

SytheXP December 10th, 2007 3:00 PM

Yea with arceaus and mew thats probably vis versa but I dont 100% agree with mews changing into other pokes although They knew transform in R/B/Y right so maybe they were like ditto and transformed and then breed while transformed to make the other pokes and maybe Ditto is an Imperfect form of its counterpart mew they are both pink and can use transform.

Yingxue December 10th, 2007 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diageo (Post 3159925)
If dialga/palkia are so powerful to create other pokes, why cant u use that great power when u catch them? Why cant u travel through time or teleport? Why cant you make huge waves with kyogres or create landmasses to cross the sea with groundoun with the power they supposedly have?

That's an interesting question. It probably would be kind of difficult to incorporate all of that into a single game cartridge. Also, it'd be kind of cheap.

But it would make for an interesting game where you could create and explore your own regions.


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