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-   -   Idea for a new type of competitive battle (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=120089)

shedinjask December 22nd, 2007 7:19 PM

Scyther is faster than all of those. With one Swords Dance and Technician:

Max HP/Def +Def Gastly taking Aerial Ace: 136.99% - 160.27%
Max HP/Def +Def Drifloon taking Aerial Ace: 93.20% - 109.71%
Max HP/Def +Def Koffing taking Aerial Ace: 74.36% - 87.18%
Max HP/Def +Def Geodude taking X-Scissor: 64.10% - 75.64%
Max HP/Def +Def Onix taking X-Scissor: 48.68% - 57.89%
Max HP/Def +Def Starly taking Aerial Ace: 128.21% - 150.00%

Koffing, Geodude, Shieldon, Drifloon, Aron, Onix survive. Of all of those, only Koffing, Shieldon, Aron, and possibly Onix can get past Focus Sash. Koffing with WoW, Onix by the 3HKO chance. Geodude will activate Sash and faint on the next turn. Onix, Shieldon and Aron can Roar. Onix and Koffing will take a huge chunk of health from this, and Onix has only a possibility of living to Stone Edge again, so it will most likely Roar, meaning it got rid of a full-health Scyther by taking around half health. You can Aromatherapy off the burn and Koffing dies on the next turn anyways. It has no way of OHKOing Scyther, even if it doesn't have Sash. By the very definition of a counter, it must be able to switch into a threat and threaten it or faint it with little or no risk to itself. This leaves, again, Aron and Shieldon.

Waker of Chaos December 22nd, 2007 7:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3189767)
Scyther is faster than all of those. With one Swords Dance and Technician:

Max HP/Def +Def Gastly taking Aerial Ace: 136.99% - 160.27%
Max HP/Def +Def Drifloon taking Aerial Ace: 93.20% - 109.71%
Max HP/Def +Def Koffing taking Aerial Ace: 74.36% - 87.18%
Max HP/Def +Def Geodude taking X-Scissor: 64.10% - 75.64%
Max HP/Def +Def Onix taking X-Scissor: 48.68% - 57.89%
Max HP/Def +Def Starly taking Aerial Ace: 128.21% - 150.00%

Koffing, Geodude, Shieldon, Drifloon, Aron, Onix survive. Of all of those, only Koffing, Shieldon, Aron, and possibly Onix can get past Focus Sash. Koffing with WoW, Onix by the 3HKO chance. Geodude will activate Sash and faint on the next turn. Onix, Shieldon and Aron can Roar. Onix and Koffing will take a huge chunk of health from this, and Onix has only a possibility of living to Stone Edge again, so it will most likely Roar, meaning it got rid of a full-health Scyther by taking around half health. You can Aromatherapy off the burn and Koffing dies on the next turn anyways. It has no way of OHKOing Scyther, even if it doesn't have Sash. By the very definition of a counter, it must be able to switch into a threat and threaten it or faint it with little or no risk to itself. This leaves, again, Aron and Shieldon.

Then here's my advice.

Stop overanalyzing a children's video game and have fun.

shedinjask December 22nd, 2007 7:41 PM

It's exactly that kind of attitute that felled Pokerealm. They didn't want to test anything so they banned everything that was even remotely luck based.

It's not fun to face something with a grand total of two counters. If you don't want to properly analyze a metagame before setting rules for it, then you have no place setting rules for it. This is Pokemon. Serious business.

Waker of Chaos December 22nd, 2007 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3189809)
It's exactly that kind of attitute that felled Pokerealm. They didn't want to test anything so they banned everything that was even remotely luck based.

If you don't want to properly analyze a metagame before setting rules for it, then you have no place setting rules for it. This is Pokemon. Serious business.

1) It's a game. Treat it as such.

2) Do not start an argument with me, because I guarantee it'll erupt into a flame war.

3) I never said I'd be competing in this tournament, I just thought it was a nice idea.

4) Lay off. NOW.

5) I never tried to set rules for it.

shedinjask December 22nd, 2007 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waker of Chaos (Post 3189815)
1) It's a game. Treat it as such.

2) Do not start an argument with me, because I guarantee it'll erupt into a flame war.

3) I never said I'd be competing in this tournament, I just thought it was a nice idea.

4) Lay off. NOW.

5) I never tried to set rules for it.

1. Games need rules that make sense.
2. Try me.
3. I never said you said you were.
4. That's a great debating skil.
5. Yes you did. You were trying to prove Scyther didn't need to be banned. What really got me was how you said to stop taking it seriously. I mean really, if you don't want to be serious you might as well have no rules at all.

Mechanic December 22nd, 2007 8:08 PM

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. guys...

I think your overacting here.

My opinion? It`s annoying!!!! >.<

Let me cheer you, today i was at work and since its Christmas eve almost nobody went so i got some clay and made a cute cyndaquil sculpture :3 (he`s my fav poke ^_^)

So just get some clay and make a Scyther or w/e else you want, that`s a really relaxing terapy (now im going for a large scale quilava).

skip my day, now lets talk about business, i promised to keep this in order to evitate this sort of conflicts. You two just stop fighting before i go aggro on you and do nasty stuff.

Scyther isn't banned hence because he evolves and he isn't that GODLY either, he falls into our expectations for what we call a baby pokemon.

Your arguing because hes too strong? Well then lets just wait and see, i bet a lot of people will use him as a main firepower so its going to be one easy counter (yep i`m planning to go 100% other pokes counter thats more fun isn't that what this is about?).

I think that tomorrow Gofre will have up a banned items list so for now, good night gentlements and don't take so seriously something that is just a game =.= I know your at a sort of age that you think this will benefit you but, THIS IS ONLY FOR FUN remember that and your life will be easier, i think i will even change the tittle to "Idea for a new type of fun battle" to see if that settles you and any other that tries to go mental in here.

shedinjask December 22nd, 2007 8:14 PM

I'm sure Mewtwo has counters too. But the point is it's overcentralized. More fun would involve not having one of two mediocre Steel/Rock types be completely necessary to not get beaten by the same set over and over again.

I'm willing to back off if you can give me at least two other counters that people would use not because they counter Scyther, but because they are good in and of themselves.

Waker of Chaos December 22nd, 2007 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3189880)
I'm sure Mewtwo has counters too. But the point is it's overcentralized. More fun would involve not having one of two mediocre Steel/Rock types be completely necessary to not get beaten by the same set over and over again.

I'm willing to back off if you can give me at least two other counters that people would use not because they counter Scyther, but because they are good in and of themselves.

Elitist overanalyst. You shouldn't even be here with that attitude. The TD just told you to back off, so you WILL back off, OK? OK.

Pick any Rock or Steel Pokémon with high Defense that has a Rock, Electric, or even Fire move, and you have your counter. For all you know, the Choice Scarf isn't banned, and I am certain Scyther won't be using one.

Now leave it alone already. You're annoying me, and that is NOT a good idea.

Don't reply to me either. I'll report you if you do, I promise.

Mechanic December 22nd, 2007 8:38 PM

You want a counter for the movepool posted so bad? then here it goes...

Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Sword Dance
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang

Movepool upon changing, i just got it from the top of my mind, there you go the only menace to this Rhyhorn is fight type but i think i can change that with something to work with Sword Dance to maybe get a OHKO or something, dunno but now that this issue is settled.

Good nights and hope that i can bring the main thread tomorrows

Anti December 22nd, 2007 8:59 PM

Seriously, nobody has explained to me the Choice item and life orb ban after I've asked several times. So could I please get an answer?

Because if we're going to have this on Shoddy, I'd like to know these things so I can add more to my team than clampearl, diglett, and trapinch >:) lol

BTW, when is this going to be held? Sorry if this has been answered, but I have a MONSTER headache and I cqan't read through all those posts...sorry, honestly, but I'd pleas elike an answer ^_^

Mechanic December 22nd, 2007 9:17 PM

This might start late December and end late January (but with continuation of course)

for the banned items wait until Gofre posts the list.

Now im seriously going to bed, bye all

Anti December 22nd, 2007 9:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit101 (Post 3190023)
This might start late December and end late January (but with continuation of course)

for the banned items wait until Gofre posts the list.

Now im seriously going to bed, bye all

Yeah, but WHY are the ybanned? I don't really see the point to be honest.

Waker of Chaos December 22nd, 2007 9:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 (Post 3190045)
Yeah, but WHY are the ybanned? I don't really see the point to be honest.

I guess we'll have to wait for Gofre to post the list. I assume said list will include why.

El Gofre December 23rd, 2007 5:32 AM

Ok, Im just putting the finishing touches to the criteria, will be posted in around 10 mins :)

shedinjask December 23rd, 2007 5:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waker of Chaos (Post 3189907)
Elitist overanalyst. You shouldn't even be here with that attitude. The TD just told you to back off, so you WILL back off, OK? OK.

Pick any Rock or Steel Pokémon with high Defense that has a Rock, Electric, or even Fire move, and you have your counter. For all you know, the Choice Scarf isn't banned, and I am certain Scyther won't be using one.

Now leave it alone already. You're annoying me, and that is NOT a good idea.

Don't reply to me either. I'll report you if you do, I promise.

I'm not elitist. I'm right. If you don't feel like arguing anymore, then just admit I'm right. Of all the basic evolving Steel or Rock types, Aron and Shieldon are the only counters. Onix, like I said, takes too big of a dent. Hell, put Brick Break over Baton Pass and Shieldon and Aron are stuck Roaring it away, which they can only do once. I've tested them. I know. If you want to allow Scyther, then find me more than two specialized counters. If unit is really annoyed by this and is not willing to set realistic rules for a metagame, then he has no place trying to. And what is your premise for reporting me anyways? "I tried to win a debate on competitive battling and I didn't. Please ban shedinjask."

Now you're starting to annoy me and you're wrong, which is really not a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit101 (Post 3189941)
Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Sword Dance
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang

Scyther X-Scissor after a SD: 63.79% - 75.08%. Not a counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waker of Chaos (Post 3190048)
I guess we'll have to wait for Gofre to post the list. I assume said list will include why.

Just like I assumed that he would give a valid reason for allowing Scyther.

El Gofre December 23rd, 2007 6:15 AM

Ok here's the criteria:
Project Baby; Team Criterea
By Gofre and Unit 101

Valid Pokemon:
1. Any pokemon entered in a team must have a total base stat with a maximum of 350, Including HP. Note this is specifically base stat, not total stats on a particular pokemon.
2.All Pokemon may be raised to a maximum of level 25. This is to allow stats to be kept at a suitably low level, and to stop more powerful moves becoming common. Egg moves and TM/HMs are still valid.
3.All pokemon must be at base level. The only exception to this is the evolutionary forms of 'baby' pokemon, as to accomodate for their extremely low stats, unless these evolutions fall outside of the 350 maximum.
4.No single pokemon may have a single base stat exceeding 100, as to keep from any poke from becoming overly powerful in such a narrow category. Note this means you can use pokemon with a stat equalling 100, but no higher
5.Natures are not taken into account concerning base stats; Stats are looked at prior to any nature-based adjustments.

Team Structure
1. All teams shall be 4v4, as to stop such low strength battles taking too long, and to lower the level of stratgy; the name is project baby, its aimed at being fun, not overly complicated
2.The Species Clause is in effect.

Banned stuff.
1. Clauses in effect; Hax, Evasion, Species, Sleep/Freeze.
2.Additions to these clauses:
2.1 Choice items are banned. As with other limits this is to keep the level of stats down and maximise strategy, rather than sweeping with a single well picked poke.
2.2 Moves with a base power over 120 may not be used. Moves capable of such strength, but with a variable power, are permitted.
2.3 Dragon Rage and Sonicboom are banned, as they can take a significant percentage of a low-level poke's health in a single hit.
2.4 Life orb is banned, due to such a high boost (A full third) compared to a relatively low recoil.
3. EV training, Egg move breeding and so on are fine.

All criticisms welcome :)

shedinjask December 23rd, 2007 6:26 AM

EDIT: Sorry, misread it.

No Scyther, no Ponyta. Ok.

El Gofre December 23rd, 2007 6:30 AM

It says EV training is fine, read the sentence fully.

.Aero December 23rd, 2007 8:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gofre (Post 3190769)
Ok here's the criteria:
Project Baby; Team Criterea
By Gofre and Unit 101

Valid Pokemon:
1. Any pokemon entered in a team must have a total base stat with a maximum of 350, Including HP. Note this is specifically base stat, not total stats on a particular pokemon.
2.All Pokemon may be raised to a maximum of level 25. This is to allow stats to be kept at a suitably low level, and to stop more powerful moves becoming common. Egg moves and TM/HMs are still valid.
3.All pokemon must be at base level. The only exception to this is the evolutionary forms of 'baby' pokemon, as to accomodate for their extremely low stats, unless these evolutions fall outside of the 350 maximum.
4.No single pokemon may have a single base stat exceeding 100, as to keep from any poke from becoming overly powerful in such a narrow category. Note this means you can use pokemon with a stat equalling 100, but no higher
5.Natures are not taken into account concerning base stats; Stats are looked at prior to any nature-based adjustments.

Team Structure
1. All teams shall be 4v4, as to stop such low strength battles taking too long, and to lower the level of stratgy; the name is project baby, its aimed at being fun, not overly complicated
2.The Species Clause is in effect.

Banned stuff.
1. Clauses in effect; Hax, Evasion, Species, Sleep/Freeze.
2.Additions to these clauses:
2.1 Choice items are banned. As with other limits this is to keep the level of stats down and maximise strategy, rather than sweeping with a single well picked poke.
2.2 Moves with a base power over 120 may not be used. Moves capable of such strength, but with a variable power, are permitted.
2.3 Dragon Rage and Sonicboom are banned, as they can take a significant percentage of a low-level poke's health in a single hit.
2.4 Life orb is banned, due to such a high boost (A full third) compared to a relatively low recoil.
3. EV training, Egg move breeding and so on are fine.

All criticisms welcome :)

This first rule (in bold) makes no sense at all. No pokemon I believe has a base stat over even 200. Maybe you're trying to say just max stat. Not max base stat. I'd clarify that if I were you so there isn't too much confusion. Otherwise good.

P.S. shedinjask and Waker of Chaos stop fighting. I've learned it doesn't get you anywhere and creating enemies is probably the last thing you two want to do. The topic you're discussing isn't getting anywhere (like the one I was in about two weeks ago) and it's already said that Scyther is banned. So please, don't spam this thread with fighting.

~desu Saba~

El Gofre December 23rd, 2007 8:19 AM

If you read it properly it says total base stats. So their HP, Att,Def,SpAtt,SpDef and spd added together cannot go past 350

.Aero December 23rd, 2007 8:34 AM

Oh, I did read carefully so don't think I didn't. I just don't think it was that clear. I was thinking it meant the max amount any stat can reach is 350. I know none of them would when you hit level 25, I just don't think it was that clear.

~desu Saba~

El Gofre December 23rd, 2007 8:41 AM

Ohhh i get the confusion now, you thought i meant the stat value seen on the pokemon while i thought you were talking about base stats.

Its been cleared up now then :)

Mechanic December 23rd, 2007 8:57 AM

Sorry but i just cant keep quiet on this one xD

Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Counter
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang

Now i checked and this is all you will need, as you will try to go monkey on me with the super speed Scyther has then i use Counter and bam you go OHKO thanks to yourself :P

Nodaways Scyther is weak to all the elements from the other atks so it will do 130 damage per each of them thanks to the 2X weaknesses and with Rhyhorn`s moderate attack as it is it would be a OHKO for sure...

Other than that, even though you get me out 63.79% - 75.08% as you said with the other set Stone Edge would OHKO you without doubts, now look at another movepool perfect for those situations (i know you will guess it has fangs again ^_^)

Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Rest
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Sleep Talk

Thats still a pretty good movepool with the Restalk combo in it your Scyther will be in problems nodaways so you got no scape at all you will get OHKO in every scenario so stop talking nonsenses about Scyther being better than my little Rhyhorn RAWR!!!

shedinjask December 23rd, 2007 10:44 AM

Except Scyther has a Focus Sash and is faster and 2HKOs Rhyhorn. Rhyhorn is therefore not a counter, because it can't switch into a Swords Dance and survive the oncoming attacks to beat Scyther first. Of course it wins one-on-one.

Waker of Chaos December 23rd, 2007 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3190798)
EDIT: Sorry, misread it.

No Scyther, no Ponyta. Ok.

Now there's no reason to argue. Ergo, now you can back off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabaku no Gaara (Post 3191099)
P.S. shedinjask and Waker of Chaos stop fighting. I've learned it doesn't get you anywhere and creating enemies is probably the last thing you two want to do. The topic you're discussing isn't getting anywhere (like the one I was in about two weeks ago) and it's already said that Scyther is banned. So please, don't spam this thread with fighting.

~desu Saba~

It's pretty late for warning me against making enemies. He already is with that attitude of his. He may be right, but that doesn't do squat about how he treats people. If he was nicer about it, then maybe I'd "be more civil".

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit101 (Post 3191212)
Sorry but i just cant keep quiet on this one xD

Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Counter
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang
- Thunder Fang

Now i checked and this is all you will need, as you will try to go monkey on me with the super speed Scyther has then i use Counter and bam you go OHKO thanks to yourself :P

Nodaways Scyther is weak to all the elements from the other atks so it will do 130 damage per each of them thanks to the 2X weaknesses and with Rhyhorn`s moderate attack as it is it would be a OHKO for sure...

Other than that, even though you get me out 63.79% - 75.08% as you said with the other set Stone Edge would OHKO you without doubts, now look at another movepool perfect for those situations (i know you will guess it has fangs again ^_^)

Rhyhorn @ Leftover`s *Food from trashcan time!*
Trait: Roch Head
Adamant Nature
EV`s: 252Atk / 252Def/ Spare ones on dunno what youll see later on...
- Rest
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang
- Sleep Talk

Thats still a pretty good movepool with the Restalk combo in it your Scyther will be in problems nodaways so you got no scape at all you will get OHKO in every scenario so stop talking nonsenses about Scyther being better than my little Rhyhorn RAWR!!!

We can stop arguing about the Scyther issue now, since it can't be used here.


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