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-   -   Pokemon Discussion (Current Subject: Aerodactyl) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=124160)

luke January 23rd, 2008 11:18 AM

Pokemon Discussion (Current Subject: Aerodactyl)
 
I told you all that this thread would be making a return shortly. Well here it is. Except with many changes. After seeing the success of the Deoxys-E discussion thread, I was inspired (thanks Anti). Now, here are the changes:

1.) We will be discussing more than just move sets now. We will also discuss the best counters, best Pokemon they work with, oddest encounters while battling one, how well they work in their particular tier.

2.) There will be no requesting what Pokemon you would like to do. Smarties or I will decide the particular Pokemon to be discussed at that particular time. Speaking of choosing the Pokemon, here's rule number:

3.) Revised: A new Pokemon will be introduced when I feel the analysis has been completed. I will try to leave it up for at least two to three days. After that, I'll begin searching for the next Pokemon.

4.) Using a very simple website-building tool, there will be separate pages on which all information discussed/known about the Pokemon will be summarized.

5.) No arguing, spamming, being a complete idiot, etc. You get the idea. This is a thread for civil, intelligent, and progressive discussion. There will be ZERO tolerance for any member, no matter their seniority.

6.) No copy and paste jobs from Smogon or any other Pokemon site (like Serebii). Yes, you may use the move sets and such that they give, but I expect your own description of how the move set works in your words. This also goes for your own unique move sets. No move set without a description will be placed on the web page.

7.) PLEASE USE THIS FORMAT WHEN POSTING A MOVE SET:

[Pokemon's Name] @ [Item]
Ability: [Name]
EVs: [Spread]
[Name] Nature

-
-
-
-

8.) HAVE FUN! :D:D:D:D:D (Yay for cheesey rules)

Finished Discussions:
Our first Pokemon up for discussion is an old favorite of mine:

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/golem.png

Name: Golem
Classification: Rock Pokemon
Typing: Rock / Ground
Height / Weight: 4'07" / 662 lbs.
Tier: Underused (UU)
Ability: Sturdy / Rock Head

Stats-
HP- 80
Attack- 110
Defense- 130
Special Attack- 55
Special Defense- 65
Speed- 45

Diamond PokeDex Entry- It sheds its hide once a year. Its boulderlike body is so tough, even dynamite can't harm it.
Pearl PokeDex Entry- It tumbles down mountains, leaving grooves from peak to base. Stay clear of these grooves.

Image courtesy of Arkeis.

Olz. January 23rd, 2008 11:20 AM

First post :), Wow thats an awesome golum! Yea, it ism underused. Possible because Water/Ice/Grass Can kill it in one shot >.<.


Edit - :

I've had a golum before, it wasn't that good really. Its Moveset was something like:

Selfdestruct (Don't know why)
Earthquake (^^)
Strength?
And er... Forgot xP

Anywasy, they work well as a wall i think >.<

luke January 23rd, 2008 11:22 AM

Either edit your post to actually contribute to the topic at hand or you will receive a warning. Thank you.

El Gofre January 23rd, 2008 11:55 AM

Ah golem, an old fave of mine too. Heres the set I was planning on using in a UU team:
[email protected] Band
Relaxed Nature
252HP/152Att/100Def
Stone Edge
EQ
Explosion
Rock Blast

Stone Edge and EQ are the staple of most choice banders. Rock blast works well as a sub breaker when combined with STAB and Band. Explosion for when you can no longer carry on.

sims796 January 23rd, 2008 11:56 AM

If this is allowed, I'd like to quote myself from a post I made in an earlier thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3266680)
I don't know about ADV, really, but Golem is pretty good in OU. I used to use an un-EV trained one that beat many good players here.

The thing that makes Golem stand out from Rhy is Explosion. But not with CBing.

I don't feel like rating, so someone else can handle the rest of the obvious mistakes. I'll just do Golem

Golem:Leftovers/Life Orb
Nature:Adamant/Impish
Earthquake
Stone Egde
Stealth Rock
Explosion
EV:252 ATK/148 DEF/108 HP

I learned that Golem is pretty tough with a CB.

Faceless* January 23rd, 2008 12:14 PM

Golem has a problem in the OU, Rhyperior

and reading from your post, Golem having Explosion and Rhyperior Not having Explosion isn't a big deal. Rhyperior has more capabilities Golem does not have, boosted stats, access to other moves, the ability Solid Rock (allows him to take a few Earthquakes)

If Golem is to be used in OU, that's just like saying "Golem should ALWAYS have Explosion, no matter what"

sims796 January 23rd, 2008 12:17 PM

But you do agree, it is a truly killer move, that almost guarentees a KO. Don't think I ever said that Golem can compete in the level that Rhyperior can. But that is a move that can seperate the two.

Faceless* January 23rd, 2008 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3272941)
But you do agree, it is a truly killer move, that almost guarentees a KO. Don't think I ever said that Golem can compete in the level that Rhyperior can. But that is a move that can seperate the two.

Correct, is there anything else that seperates them though? ?_?

Well, both Golem's Abilities are pretty useless (Sturdy = wheres the OHKO?)(Rock Head = Man, I can deal MUCH more damage with Stone Edge than wasting my time with Double-Edge) unless Golem had Head Smash LOL. That's when I use Golem.

As for the set..

Golem@Leftovers/Focus Sash
Trait : Sturdy/Rock Head
Nature : Relaxed/Impish/Adamant
Moves :
- Explosion
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch/Substitute/Stealth Rock

Substitute surprises sweepers switching in like Starmie/Alakazam etc.
Fire Punch is ok for Forretress/Scizor/Skarmory who likes to laugh at Golem
Stealth Rock is self-explanatory

sims796 January 23rd, 2008 12:26 PM

I keep forgetting about move tutors & Fire Punch. I blame Anti.

luke January 23rd, 2008 12:33 PM

Golem @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 32 HP / 224 ATK / 252 SPD
Jolly or Naive Nature

- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Fire Blast
- Rock Polish

I'm really bad with calculations, but I think after Rock Polish, it reaches 414 Speed. It's sort of a Agiligross rip-off, except with more Speed EV investment (Golish FTW?). Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Rock Polish are self-explanatory. Fire Punch let's you stay purely physical while Fire Blast (while incredibly lacking in power), is a poor alternative that some may prefer as a surprise. Also capable of the 6 HP / 252 ATK / 252 SPD spread.

Faceless* January 23rd, 2008 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3272982)
Golem @ Life Orb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 32 HP / 224 ATK / 252 SPD
Jolly or Naive Nature

- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch / Fire Blast
- Rock Polish

I'm really bad with calculations, but I think after Rock Polish, it reaches 414 Speed. It's sort of a Agiligross rip-off, except with more Speed EV investment (Golish FTW?). Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Rock Polish are self-explanatory. Fire Punch let's you stay purely physical while Fire Blast (while incredibly lacking in power), is a poor alternative that some may prefer as a surprise. Also capable of the 6 HP / 252 ATK / 252 SPD spread.

This set was meant to catch opponent off of prediction? =O Yay for the new Agiligolem!! I'd much rather see Focus Sash at times since prediction is a very big risk.

luke January 23rd, 2008 12:36 PM

Oh, I always forget about Focus Sash as I never use it. Added it. =D

Anti January 23rd, 2008 1:50 PM

Golem has been horribly abused by Nintendo ever since the beginning of Generation 2. How dareth they???

Golem @ Choice Band
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Double-Edge / Fire Punch
- BOOM! (Explosion)

CB 'BOOM!'ing is oh so fun! Pretty generic CBer though. Fire punch will beat floating steels. EQ and Stone Edge are general STAB moves.

Eh, it'd better as a wall, but CBing with 110 base Atk is fun to mess with.

luke January 23rd, 2008 2:39 PM

Does anyone have a Wall set? I'd be interested in seeing one.

Dark Azelf January 23rd, 2008 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3273282)
Does anyone have a Wall set? I'd be interested in seeing one.

[email protected]
252 HP / 252 DEF / 6 ATT.
Trait : Sturdy (Always helpful against OHKO n00bs XD)
Relaxed / Impish Nature
- Roar
- Stealth Rock / Rest
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake


i suppose you can shove Toxic or Protect on here to whittle stuff down and to scout choice band attacks.

I really have no clue XD

shedinjask January 23rd, 2008 2:46 PM

Golem @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd -- Impish
Rock Blast
Protect
Toxic
Roar/Block

I guess it can get some kills. Block for being annoying, Roar for spreading the poison.

luke January 23rd, 2008 5:27 PM

[email protected] Specs
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SPATK / 6 DEF
Modest or Bold Nature

- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Focus Blast
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Beam / Earthquake

Gimmick Choice Specs. Not to be taken seriously. Probably bad coverage.

Ársa January 23rd, 2008 5:46 PM

[email protected] Berry / Life Orb
Brave
252 Atk, 202 HP, 56 Def
Rock Head

Earthquake
Natural Gift / Substitute / Flamethrower
Stone Edge
Double Edge / Fire Punch

Ok, works best on a Trick Room Team. Double Edge recoil is negated, Earthquake and Stone Edge provide Nice STAB. Now here is the awkward. Liechi Berry give Natural Gift a Base 80 Physical Grass attack. You can either run Natural Gift, or run Substitute with Liechi Berry. Finally, if you want, you can run Flamethrower and Life Orb, which KO's Skarmory.

~T_S

sims796 January 23rd, 2008 5:50 PM

I personally like the tank set that I gave, but then again, tanks are my favorite roles.

Ársa January 23rd, 2008 5:55 PM

Yes, Golem is a tank, but I just gave my two bits of a different set. In Trick Room and Sandstorm, it can be scary. Takes out Water and Rock/Ground Types with Natural Gift, and not many will expect it. (For Instance, Swampert say bye bye. ;))

~T_S

sims796 January 23rd, 2008 6:12 PM

I hate Natural Gift to no end. Not only is it a one shot move, but afterwards, you are left without an item for the rest of the game. Plus, although this rarely happens, if you run out of moves, you will have to use 14 more useless Natural Gifts before you actually use Struggle.

Ársa January 23rd, 2008 6:17 PM

Hence Explosion could be fit in there somewhere, make it more bulky and explode after it is used.

~T_S

luke January 23rd, 2008 8:29 PM

Okay, I think we have move sets covered. Who makes the best counter (easy) and stuff along those lines.

Ársa January 23rd, 2008 8:34 PM

Well, best counters are Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Gengar etc. They can all switch in on an expected Explosion. Skarm can take a hit from Fire Punch and whirlwind away, and basically anything that outspeeds it outside of Trick Room.

~T_S

sims796 January 24th, 2008 8:42 AM

Anything with Earthquake, or Surf, or Energy Ball, or...

luke January 24th, 2008 8:44 AM

Any interesting stories involving a battle with Golem? Or how it compares to other Pokemon similar to it.

sims796 January 24th, 2008 8:52 AM

Me first, Me first!

Before I started to EV train--no, while EV training--I had a Golem with a great moveset. Unknown IV's, since that one wasn't EV trained.

I had it as a starter. It used Stealth Rock up front, then if I'm up against a poke I just don't like, I Explode.

In a match against Smarties, He had Meta vs Golem. It was able to survive Meteor Mash to counter with EQ, doing major damage, or just KOing it, I don't remember. Then, in another match (or the same match, if Meta survived), Meta missed it's Meteor Mash, then got KO'ed by an EQ. Beautiful. Many people thought that Golem should be a staple to my team.

luke January 24th, 2008 12:40 PM

Golem has saved me against Blissey before with a nicely placed Explosion. My opponent forgot I had Rock Polish'd once, so I out sped it's Seismic Toss or Ice Beam (I'm guessing that's what it was using) and blew it up, scoring me a win. They were both of our last Pokemon by the way.

LethalTexture January 24th, 2008 1:10 PM

Since I've never tried using Golem competitively, my most memorable battle with a Golem was when it used Fly after a Metronome way back in the original stadium. :/

sims796 January 24th, 2008 1:18 PM

I remember Stadium! I kept getting Flamethrower.

luke January 24th, 2008 1:22 PM

Just to let everyone know, I have the basic skeleton of Golem's page up. It's nothing special, but it will allow for a summary for each Pokemon in a nice, organized manner. ^^

shedinjask January 24th, 2008 1:35 PM

Swampert, Rhyperior, and many bulky waters/grounds/ghosts/quakeslide resists can counter it effectively. Watch out for Natural Gift though.

boo836 January 24th, 2008 1:40 PM

Golem: @ lefties
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 att, 204 def, 52 hp
Stone edge
earthquake
Substitute/ Fire punch
Focus punch/ sandstorm


Yeah, it can be deadly with + spdef boost from sandstorm. Or maybe you could go with fire punch for skarm and forry, or you could sub punch.

luke January 24th, 2008 5:58 PM

Looks good. Working on an HTML site at the moment. Don't like googlepages.

Faceless* January 24th, 2008 6:18 PM

I battled a friend's Golem and I apparently, at that time, was a bit inexperienced, I didn't even know what the purpose for Golem was o_o Now, you never attack it physically with moves like Dragon Claw.. That thing obliterated my Forretress in a zap with Fire Punch, my Physical Wall with Gyro Ball didn't do much either, only to be killed by 2 Fire Punches. The Golem Exploded in my Blissey's face V_V

Eos Aduro January 24th, 2008 7:16 PM

I remembers sims Golem, pretty strong lead. Then his Noctowl+Gyarados got my whole stupid team -_-. Golem I;ve used a lot over non-competitive play, and I can say this one thing about it. this is a ridiculous and yet amusing set.

Golem-Leftovers
Impish-252 HP, 152 Attack, 104 Def
Substitute
Defense Curl
Roll Out
Earthquake

So yeah Defense Curl doubles Roll Outs power, and with a STAB it actually gets pretty powerful, even if its totally ridiculous if something switches in, its a newb novelty set, but with a Ninjask speed boosts, I've actually done a little damage when it was on a Shoddy team I made up when i was bored.

luke January 24th, 2008 8:02 PM

Oh Rollout. Might be good to pair that with Block. They can't run from the powerful move.

Eos Aduro January 24th, 2008 8:04 PM

Ooh good idea, never thought of that, it could be like more defense and make it a physical wall, trap a Poke thats easily beaten by rock moves, defense curl, and Roll Out Away!

Samson January 25th, 2008 1:57 AM

CB Golem paired with a status inducer is awesome.

Archer January 25th, 2008 2:07 AM

One good thing about Golem is the Selection of great moves through LV up that usually need TMs.
It could be a bit more gutsy with Sandstorm support. Oops missed that before...
With the Block/DefCurl/Rollout sets, block may not actually be neccesary considering, with a STAB, potential Atk of 350 and the DefCurl Boost, It even does a number on max HP/Def Skarmory.
3rd Atk - 240 Power - 65% - 77%
4th Atk - 480 Power - OHKO

Imagine seeing your Physical Wall getting One Hitted by a Neutral UUs Attack.

Anti January 25th, 2008 8:29 AM

That's why I hate Skarm-Rock Attacks murder it.

Block is funner with Explosion. Block the incoming counter, have a focus sash to take the hit, and ram it with a BOOM. Though that's quite a bit novelty.

More fun is block with counter, where the strongest physical attack will get hammered back...then you can BOOM something to finish off.

Eh, just some weirdo novelty ideas that probably wouldn't work. Tangrowth runs Block better anyways, so yeah.

luke January 25th, 2008 9:22 AM

Golem

The new page. Pretty simplistic. Also let's me practice my HTML skills.

Anti January 25th, 2008 9:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3277608)
Golem

The new page. Pretty simplistic. Also let me practice my HTML skills.

I can help with HTML considering I've been working on HTML projects for a year or two now ;)

Also, on the subpunch set, no real need for fire punch since a supereffective F-punch will do what a normal foucs punch will do to Skarm. Unless you fear Forry, but it isn't that common really

luke January 25th, 2008 9:37 AM

Well, that set is actually two combined into one. Substitute / Focus Punch and Sandstorm / Fire Punch go together I believe. Expect a new Pokemon today.

I'm also altering a few rules and adding another one:

There will be a set format everyone will have to submit their move sets in:

[Pokemon] @ [Item]
Ability: [Name]
EVs: [EV Spread Here]
[Name] Nature

- Move 1
- Move 2
- Move 3
- Move 4

Explanation:

-----

It will make my life easier when building the site.


A NEW CHALLENGER HAS APPEARED!

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/hariyama.png

Name: Hariyama
Classification: Arm Thrust Pokemon
Typing: Fighting
Height / Weight: 7'07" / 559.5 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Thick Fat / Guts

Stats-
HP- 144
Attack- 120
Defense- 60
Special Attack- 40
Special Defense- 60
Speed- 50

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It loves match power with big-bodied Pokemon. It can knock a truck flying with its arm thrusts.

Image courtesy of Arkeis.

Dark Azelf January 25th, 2008 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3277629)
Well, that set is actually two combined into one. Substitute / Focus Punch and Sandstorm / Fire Punch go together I believe. Expect a new Pokemon today.

I'm also altering a few rules and adding another one:

There will be a set format everyone will have to submit their move sets in:

[Pokemon] @ [Item]
Ability: [Name]
EVs: [EV Spread Here]
[Name] Nature

- Move 1
- Move 2
- Move 3
- Move 4

Explanation:

-----

It will make my life easier when building the site.


A NEW CHALLENGER HAS APPEARED!

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/hariyama.png

Name: Hariyama
Classification: Arm Thrust Pokemon
Typing: Fighting
Height / Weight: 7'07" / 559.5 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Thick Fat / Guts

Stats-
HP- 144
Attack- 120
Defense- 60
Special Attack- 40
Special Defense- 60
Speed- 50

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It loves match power with big-bodied Pokemon. It can knock a truck flying with its arm thrusts.

Image courtesy of Arkeis.


[email protected]
76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Def
Trait : Thick fat / Guts
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus punch
- Stone Edge
- Payback


I love this set, Focus Punch packs so much power coming from this. Payback deals with ghosts and stone edge covers salamence and gyarados etc.

Guts is a viable alternative if your willing to trade Ice and Fire resists for status absorbing.

Angelic Diablo January 25th, 2008 11:31 AM

[email protected] Band
EVs: 152 HP, 212 Atk, 116 Def
Guts
-Fake Out/Bullet Punch
-Close Combat/Cross Chop/Focus Punch
-Stone Edge
-Payback/Faint Attack

To make up for Hariyama's lack of speed, priority moves help it gain that quick kill, or at least take the opponent by surprise. Close Combat and Cross Chop offer a powerful STAB, but a CBed Focus Punch on the incoming counters sure hurt alot. Stone Edge for the flyers and Payback/Faint Attack for the ghosties

Guts over Thick Fat since this will be switching alot, and sometimes into incoming WoW or Thunderwaves

luke January 25th, 2008 11:33 AM

lulz Makuhita. We all know you meant Hariyama. I know there was a Belly Drum set that worked quite well when I used it. Just can't think of it...

Samson January 25th, 2008 1:22 PM

i don't there is ever going to be a clearly defined set for hariyama. it can really work its way into most teams and perform a specific duty with its movepool, abilities and typing.

Faceless* January 25th, 2008 1:32 PM

Hariyama@Leftovers
EV's : 252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 DEF or SDEF
Nature : Adamant
Ability : Thick Fat
Moves :
- Close Combat/Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Works best with Reflect/Light Screen support. Hariyama is one of the best Pokemon to switch on Stealth Rock, set up Substitute on the opponent's switch, Knock Off it's valuable item or attempt to OHKO with a move. Since it isn't able to learn Taunt, it loses a lot, Knock Off works in place of Taunt for the Skarmory/Gliscor that simply can't lose their Leftovers. Do NOT attempt to use Knock Off on Ghosts just because Close Combat isn't able to hit the Ghosts, Stone Edge has 20+ more power on the Ghost-Type Pokemon.

Hariyama@Flame Orb/Toxic Orb
EV's : 252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 SPD
Nature : Adamant
Ability : Guts
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Protect/Payback/Stone Edge

Switches in Toxic Spikes, delivers a boosted Fake Out, or Protect with your selected Orb for the Boost on Guts ability. Simply Fake Out after activating Guts and switch in on the correct time and open with Fake Out and strike with Bullet Punch. Close Combat is to destroy switch in's or Pokemon slower than itself. (which is rare)

boo836 January 25th, 2008 4:03 PM

Hariama: @ toxic orb/ focus sash
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 84 hp, 252 att, 84 def, 84 spdef/ 252 att, 252 spd
Trait: Guts
Fake out
Faint attack/ Bullet punch
Close combat
Stone edge

Depending on what you want, there are changes. Bullet punch with focus sash and will want second ev spread too.

Or;

Hariama: @ Toxic orb
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Guts
Evs: 84 hp, 252 att, 84 def, 84 spdef
Ice punch
Thunder punch
Fake out
Close combat/ Brick break

Yeah, t-punch harms gyrados leads, brick break takes out cressy's reflect. Some how, we could use a set using whirlwind.


new choice specs haryama!

************* NOTE: This, like loquacity's gimmick set is not really good. It is horrible in competitive play. YOU WERE WARNED!***************

haryama: @ Choice specs
Nature:Quiet
Trait:Thick fat
Evs: 252 spatt, 252 hp, 6 def
Focus blast
Brine/ Surf
HP [dark]
hyperbeam

shedinjask January 25th, 2008 6:15 PM

^ Burn Orb is better on Yama since it stays in.

And screw you guys putting 252 HP on something with 144/60/60 defenses.

Hariyama @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def/252 SDef/4 HP
Ability: Thick Fat/Guts
Impish Nature
Counter
Whirlwind
Knock Off
Payback

Counter is an good option. Knock Off can be annoying, as can Whirlwind. Payback hits the Ghosties but most will suffer from simply losing their item. Dusknoir/Spiritomb/Missy really like their Lefties, Gengar is much less of a threat without Life Orb/Specs/Scarf/Wide Lens, Rotom loses its Tricking power, and it even one-shots Focus Sash Sheddy. I think. It works that way on Shoddy at least.

This thing would be so great with Slack Off.

PhoenixFlare January 25th, 2008 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3279099)
^ Burn Orb is better on Yama since it stays in.

And screw you guys putting 252 HP on something with 144/60/60 defenses.

Hariyama @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def/252 SDef/4 HP
Ability: Thick Fat/Guts
Impish Nature
Counter
Taunt
Whirlwind/Knock Off/Payback
Whirlwind/Knock Off/Payback

Taunt/Counter is an good option. Knock Off can be annoying, as can Whirlwind. Payback hits the Ghosties but most will suffer from simply losing their item. Dusknoir/Spiritomb/Missy really like their Lefties, Gengar is much less of a threat without Life Orb/Specs/Scarf/Wide Lens, Rotom loses its Tricking power, and it even one-shots Focus Sash Sheddy. I think. It works that way on Shoddy at least.

This thing would be so great with Slack Off.

One problem Hariyama doesn't get Taunt.

Ooka January 25th, 2008 7:21 PM

[email protected] Orb
Adamant~252 Attack/252 HP/6 Speed
Trait:Guts
Facade
Close Combat
Bullet Punch
Fake Out

Fake out first turn as long as you aren't against a ghost, which ensures you activating your Orb, then kill stuff ._.
Bullet punch is for Sashers, or if your team has spikes support, you can use it to finish off weakened stuff. Works quite well when in the right hands IMO.

shedinjask January 25th, 2008 7:28 PM

So it doesn't get Taunt.

._.

Hariyama has better moves than Facade.

Ooka January 25th, 2008 7:43 PM

Um, Facade gets 140 power after the Move boost, plus a boost from Guts.

Faceless* January 25th, 2008 7:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 3279339)
Um, Facade gets 140 power after the Move boost and guts boost.

and Close Combat gets 180 Power all by itself ._.

and read the descriptions on my set Shedinjask, and distributing Defense and Special Defense will actually help.. in what way? Boost it's best stats to have a neat advantage of surviving, boosting it's worst stats will hinder especially if it's the defense/special defense. (not attack since you're running a strange Hariyama ?_?)

Ooka January 25th, 2008 7:52 PM

Actually, it gets around 210 after the boosts. Just not STAB.

70x2 for Facade boost, and 140x1.5 for Guts Boost.

Faceless* January 25th, 2008 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 3279366)
Actually, it gets around 210 after the boosts. Just not STAB.

70x2 for Facade boost, and 140x1.5 for Guts Boost.

No.. Gut's boosts your base attack stat by 1.5x, not the power

If that was true, then Close Combat would STILL be better

Ooka January 25th, 2008 7:58 PM

I never said Close Combat wasn't better ._.

Romo_Owens January 25th, 2008 8:28 PM

Bulky Sweeper

-Close Combat
-Bulk Up
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge/Rest

216 atk/146 def/146 hp
Adamant

sims796 January 25th, 2008 11:24 PM

Before I give my two cents, I thougt it was an update every Wednsday?

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 5:25 AM

You boost Yama's defenses for the same reason you boost Wobby's. Or Vappy's Def. Or Snorlax's Def. Or how if you are putting any EVs into Bliss's SAttk you should take them out of HP. Normally, you would max HP before defenses. This is not the case with high HP/low defensive stat Pokemon.

Ársa January 26th, 2008 5:26 AM

HP improves all 3 if you think about it. A higher HP, the more it can be hit. Even if you increase the defenses, they won't be increased as greatly as HP, therefore you would be taking away from Hariyama's overall ability to absorb hits.

~T_S

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 6:18 AM

High HP means little without good defenses. Why do you think standard Wobby is 252/252 Def/SDef? It has great HP and bad defenses.

If I could find that applet that was made I'd show you that.

EDIT: Stupid Smogon not having a working search function.

Anyways, a Hariyama with max HP and no SDef took a little more damage from Specs Starmie Surf, among other things, than one with just 128 SDef, meaning 252 Attk/128 Def/128 SDef Adamant is a better spread than 252 HP/252 Attk/4 ?? Adamant.

boo836 January 26th, 2008 6:45 AM

Counters:

Cressy can wall and throw a reflect and psychic at him.

Poisons can resist if yama does not have eq

Mesprit and uxie fare well agong with azelf at an extent.

Deoxes-S Does a number if it has psychic.

Dusknoir needs to be wary of guts because of thunder punch or WOW.

Spiritomb is not effected by stab'd Close combats and cross chops. And teases with stab'd sucker punches.

Any psychic sweeper with psychic is a good counter.

Gliscor resists stab CC but needs to be wary of the occasional ice punch.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 9:51 AM

How would poisons wall him? As long as he's carrying Facade that is. ;)

Gengar is a big wall for him. Dual Poison and Ghost, so Bullet Punch hardly hurts Gar, and nothing else he has effects Gengar.

boo836 January 26th, 2008 9:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 3280774)
How would poisons wall him? As long as he's carrying Facade that is. ;)

Gengar is a big wall for him. Dual Poison and Ghost, so Bullet Punch hardly hurts Gar, and nothing else he has effects Gengar.

Good point. What I meant were physical poison walls or poison types who stand good against the fighting attacks.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 10:27 AM

The only one that comes to my mind is Dorapion, which dies pretty easily from Close Combat after the Guts boost.

boo836 January 26th, 2008 10:29 AM

Muk too. Along with the nidos and weezing.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 10:34 AM

Well, Nidoking isn't really a wall, and Nidoqueen would die to Facade. Weezing is probably all you would have to worry about, unless the Muk had gotten in some Curses.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 10:36 AM

No you

Nidos wall Hariyama.

He has Payback for Ghosts btw.

Facade is a really bad option on him, epscially if it's only to beat the Nidos. And it is.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 10:40 AM

Um, no, it isn't.....

I use a Hariyama, and believe me, Facade gets used against a lot of Pokemon, epecially when I want to avoid a Defense/Sp Def drop.

ABYAY January 26th, 2008 10:45 AM

Facade is there for a lot of pokemon. Maybe Specsmence could ring a bell? It resists CC, but not Facade as much. I'm not saying OHKO, but it's close. Stone Edge is there for the situation too, but Facade's still safer, and Bullet Punch to remove the last bit of HP if it remains in.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 10:52 AM

Yeah, pretty much negates FSs too.

luke January 26th, 2008 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3279937)
Before I give my two cents, I thought it was an update every Wednsday?

I decided to change it, seeing as a week seems like a great deal of time to wait. I'm not rushing it though. The Golem discussion was pretty much done, and I wanted to move onto a Pokemon who would incite more conversation, like the versatile Hariyama.

I like this discussion guys. Just don't let it devolve into senseless squabbling. Thanks everyone for participating in this thread.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 11:31 AM

Stone Edge does get Specsmence and Gyarados and Yanmega and Dragonite and Zapdos and pretty much everything CC won't touch.

Facade is kinda pointless unless you're an accuracy freak, and it's weaker than a SE Stone Edge.

On a moveset of Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback/Filler, I'd pick Stone Edge over Facade any day.

EDIT: Especially if Facade is 'close' to a OHKO on Mence like you said. 'Close' isn't enough to get rid of it.

boo836 January 26th, 2008 11:32 AM

Yes, bullet punch gets rid of focus sashers and that's right. However, facade only has a possibility with burn orb/ toxic orb.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 11:47 AM

Well, I like my set, and you like yours. But I know very well that there are more Pokemon that die to Facade then there are that die to Stone Edge.

Dark Azelf January 26th, 2008 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3280970)
Stone Edge does get Specsmence and Gyarados and Yanmega and Dragonite and Zapdos and pretty much everything CC won't touch.

Facade is kinda pointless unless you're an accuracy freak, and it's weaker than a SE Stone Edge.

On a moveset of Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback/Filler, I'd pick Stone Edge over Facade any day.

EDIT: Especially if Facade is 'close' to a OHKO on Mence like you said. 'Close' isn't enough to get rid of it.

I guess you could always run Ice Punch or Thunderpunch to hit specific stuff such as Salamence and Gyarados as they will do more to each one respectively. Stone Edge hits both though and has better coverage and stuff.

Facade is only really good on the choice band set and if you switch it into a status, thats the only time is can actually 2hko weezing.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 3281004)
Well, I like my set, and you like yours. But I know very well that there are more Pokemon that die to Facade then there are that die to Stone Edge.

Name some then. Ones that won't be taken care of better by Stone Edge/Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 12:50 PM

Dorapion, Muk, Weezing, and so forth and so on.

ABYAY January 26th, 2008 1:03 PM

Pretty much, I can see poison-types being the highest priority in Facade vs. Stone Edge. Since it's pretty much impossible to incorporate both in the same set (X_X), it would only be natural to see issues on movesets erupt.

Thus, I'll conclude with this; some movesets have advantages over others. Whatever threatens you the most, counter up against it.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 1:07 PM

The only difference is Facade hits everything Neutral that Stone Edge hits Double, but it does't work the other way around.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 1:10 PM

Drapion is neutral to fighting, making CC a better option for it.

Muk is hardly seen in OU, so that leaves Weezing.

Now, let's see what Stone Edge is good for: Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, Zapdos.

Stone Edge ftw.

Samson January 26th, 2008 1:49 PM

fighting + rock has always been the superior combination on most fighting types. it's not that hard to get walled with it, but it does hit everything in the game. i would think adding payback as a dark type option would take care of everything else.

ABYAY January 26th, 2008 4:42 PM

Ooka poses a good point on Facade; it hits everything needed neutrally. Stone Edge has an advantage for it can hit some things with 60 more base power (200 to 140). Guts doesn't increase base power, so remember that! X_X. However, in a lot of cases, it's 140 to 100), and Facade's accuracy is 100%, so if you need a hit, then Facade's good for it. If you need the extra power against some of the upper OU, Stone Edge is your option.

I can't side on which is better, so I'm just saying that I like both of them and the situation is dependent with the move.

luke January 27th, 2008 3:49 PM

So it doesn't look like there will be a set agreement in the argument of Stone Edge vs. Facade. So, I'll just include them both on sets where it seems appropriate. Anyway, anyone have any interesting stories or counters to Hariyama or maybe Pokemon Hariyama makes a good counter to.

Anti January 27th, 2008 3:53 PM

Um, it takes both of TTar's STAB attacks and threatens a OHKO...yeah.

Samson January 27th, 2008 6:03 PM

well i've had one silly belly drum set on hariyama and it has sweeped plenty of times with a scarf Froslass. they make a decent pair. the hariyama has 172 SPD evs (yes, spd XD) to outrun base 70. it only needs 164 to outrun base 70 (skarm) but i gave it an extra 8 just in case the skarm is running 4 extra spd evs.

Syaoran January 27th, 2008 10:23 PM

what good it will do outrunning skarm? your only chance at beating it is if skarm decides to roost and then CC does SE damage, but that's when you're slower.

Gliscor pretty much counters Hariyama.

shedinjask January 28th, 2008 7:42 AM

Only if it doesn't have Ice Punch.

Which apparently it can get. Stupid Serebii not listing Emerald move tutors on the DP dex pages.

Samson January 28th, 2008 11:44 AM

if it's slower than skarm than it doesn't have a chance at all. it's better off finishing skarm with a KO.

luke January 31st, 2008 8:55 AM

Wow, this thread died fast. Okay, so it appears everyone is done with Hariyama. O_o I'll get another Pokemon ready in a minute.

A PRETTY PRETTY PRINCESS HAS APPEARED

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/gardevoir.png

Name: Gardevoir
Classification: Embrace Pokemon
Typing: Psychic
Height / Weight: 5'03" / 106.7 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Synchronize / Trace

Stats-
HP- 68
Attack- 65
Defense- 65
Special Attack- 125
Special Defense- 115
Speed- 80

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It will try to guard its trusted Trainer with its life. It has the ability to see the future.

Image courtesy of Arkeis

Dark Azelf January 31st, 2008 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3294817)
Wow, this thread died fast. Okay, so it appears everyone is done with Hariyama. O_o I'll get another Pokemon ready in a minute.

A PRETTY PRETTY PRINCESS HAS APPEARED

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/gardevoir.png

Name: Gardevoir
Classification: Embrace Pokemon
Typing: Psychic
Height / Weight: 5'03" / 106.7 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Synchronize / Trace

Stats-
HP- 68
Attack- 65
Defense- 65
Special Attack- 125
Special Defense- 115
Speed- 80

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It will try to guard its trusted Trainer with its life. It has the ability to see the future.

Image courtesy of Arkeis

I love a pokemon who can wish support, i always use wishers and this is one of my favorites =)

[email protected]
252 HP / 48 Sp.Att / 176 Sp.Def / 32 Speed
modest Nature
Trait : Trace
- Wish
- Will-o-wisp
- Psychic
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt /Shadow Ball

Wish is for team support.

Will-o-wisp cripples physical sweepers that want to come in.

Psychic for STAB.

Last slot is up to you. Focus Blast deals with common pursuiter switch ins such as weavile and Tyranitar. Thunderbolt helps with Skarmory, Gyarados etc and Shadow Ball helps against things such as Azelf, gengar and other psychics and ghosts.

ABYAY January 31st, 2008 2:43 PM

Heh, I run a Gardevoir that turns the sweeper game topsy-turvy, excluding dragons.

[email protected] Scarf
Modest nature
252sp.atk/252spd/6HP

Psychic
Thunderbolt/HP Ice
Focus Blast
Energy Ball/HP Ice

This set actually wreaks havoc on the likes of Starmie, Gengar, MixApe, and many other things that this thing has come in to kill. Mine can't kill Weavile until I remake it with 31 speed IVs, but it can down slower Weaviles that run less speed (they'd have to have <375 speed.) Mine runs without HP Ice, but it's a considerable option when you see the Modest 383 sp. atk possibility.

However, CB Pursuit Weavile switch ins ruin it, and even CB Hera.

Samson February 1st, 2008 12:34 AM

i dint tell neones dat garvoir r bestt fisical woll in teh metaviddeo.

gardevoir can be used in so many ways. i use it as a special wall/trick room setter/BUUURNer. the only thing that we can all agree on for gardevoir is that trace is far more superior than synchronize.

kohei February 1st, 2008 1:00 AM

Gardevoir I used in Emerald that was coupled together as support with my Bellydrum-Sub-Flailing Linoone:
Nature: Either Def↑/Atk↓ or S.Def↑/Atk↓
EV: Forgot what it was exactly, but I remember it had emphasis on physical defense.
Moves:
- Memento
- WoW
- Light Screen
- Reflector

It was pretty simple. Just set up the two walls and switch to Linoone by Memento suicide (WoW if needed).
Makes Substitue creation much safer for the Linoone, so it can use Bellydrum with minimal risk.


Probably won't work much in DP due to the abundance of first-strike moves, but it was good during the old days.

boo836 February 1st, 2008 3:09 PM

Gardeviore: @ leftovers
Nature:Modest
Trait:Trace
Evs: 252 spatt, 160 spdef, 92 spd
Calm Mind
Psychic
Focus blast
Thunder bolt/ hp [ice]/ grass knot.

Yeah, the real counters to it are:

Gross, takes in moves and meteor mashes but needs to be wary of focus blast.

Spiritomb is immune to focus blast and psychic and has good defenses along with stab pursuit and sucker punch.

Hera hurts with megahorn.

T-tar destroys with pursuit or crunch.

Weavile kills with it's speed and stab'd night slash or pursuit.

Absol sucker punches but is thwarted by calm mind.

Romo_Owens February 2nd, 2008 7:13 PM

Sweeper/stunner
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
modest nature/timid nature
252 spd/216 sp.atk/36 sp.def
-Psychic
-focus blast
-thunderbolt/energy ball/shadow ball
-Hypnosis/will-o-wisp/thunder wave

Azonic February 2nd, 2008 7:25 PM

Gardevoir isn't designed for Sweeping, its designed for a Semi-Wall. It really is awful at sweeping. Please, no ScarfDevoirs ._.


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