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shedinjask January 26th, 2008 11:31 AM

Stone Edge does get Specsmence and Gyarados and Yanmega and Dragonite and Zapdos and pretty much everything CC won't touch.

Facade is kinda pointless unless you're an accuracy freak, and it's weaker than a SE Stone Edge.

On a moveset of Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback/Filler, I'd pick Stone Edge over Facade any day.

EDIT: Especially if Facade is 'close' to a OHKO on Mence like you said. 'Close' isn't enough to get rid of it.

boo836 January 26th, 2008 11:32 AM

Yes, bullet punch gets rid of focus sashers and that's right. However, facade only has a possibility with burn orb/ toxic orb.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 11:47 AM

Well, I like my set, and you like yours. But I know very well that there are more Pokemon that die to Facade then there are that die to Stone Edge.

Dark Azelf January 26th, 2008 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3280970)
Stone Edge does get Specsmence and Gyarados and Yanmega and Dragonite and Zapdos and pretty much everything CC won't touch.

Facade is kinda pointless unless you're an accuracy freak, and it's weaker than a SE Stone Edge.

On a moveset of Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback/Filler, I'd pick Stone Edge over Facade any day.

EDIT: Especially if Facade is 'close' to a OHKO on Mence like you said. 'Close' isn't enough to get rid of it.

I guess you could always run Ice Punch or Thunderpunch to hit specific stuff such as Salamence and Gyarados as they will do more to each one respectively. Stone Edge hits both though and has better coverage and stuff.

Facade is only really good on the choice band set and if you switch it into a status, thats the only time is can actually 2hko weezing.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ooka (Post 3281004)
Well, I like my set, and you like yours. But I know very well that there are more Pokemon that die to Facade then there are that die to Stone Edge.

Name some then. Ones that won't be taken care of better by Stone Edge/Close Combat/Bullet Punch/Payback.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 12:50 PM

Dorapion, Muk, Weezing, and so forth and so on.

ABYAY January 26th, 2008 1:03 PM

Pretty much, I can see poison-types being the highest priority in Facade vs. Stone Edge. Since it's pretty much impossible to incorporate both in the same set (X_X), it would only be natural to see issues on movesets erupt.

Thus, I'll conclude with this; some movesets have advantages over others. Whatever threatens you the most, counter up against it.

Ooka January 26th, 2008 1:07 PM

The only difference is Facade hits everything Neutral that Stone Edge hits Double, but it does't work the other way around.

shedinjask January 26th, 2008 1:10 PM

Drapion is neutral to fighting, making CC a better option for it.

Muk is hardly seen in OU, so that leaves Weezing.

Now, let's see what Stone Edge is good for: Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, Zapdos.

Stone Edge ftw.

Samson January 26th, 2008 1:49 PM

fighting + rock has always been the superior combination on most fighting types. it's not that hard to get walled with it, but it does hit everything in the game. i would think adding payback as a dark type option would take care of everything else.

ABYAY January 26th, 2008 4:42 PM

Ooka poses a good point on Facade; it hits everything needed neutrally. Stone Edge has an advantage for it can hit some things with 60 more base power (200 to 140). Guts doesn't increase base power, so remember that! X_X. However, in a lot of cases, it's 140 to 100), and Facade's accuracy is 100%, so if you need a hit, then Facade's good for it. If you need the extra power against some of the upper OU, Stone Edge is your option.

I can't side on which is better, so I'm just saying that I like both of them and the situation is dependent with the move.

luke January 27th, 2008 3:49 PM

So it doesn't look like there will be a set agreement in the argument of Stone Edge vs. Facade. So, I'll just include them both on sets where it seems appropriate. Anyway, anyone have any interesting stories or counters to Hariyama or maybe Pokemon Hariyama makes a good counter to.

Anti January 27th, 2008 3:53 PM

Um, it takes both of TTar's STAB attacks and threatens a OHKO...yeah.

Samson January 27th, 2008 6:03 PM

well i've had one silly belly drum set on hariyama and it has sweeped plenty of times with a scarf Froslass. they make a decent pair. the hariyama has 172 SPD evs (yes, spd XD) to outrun base 70. it only needs 164 to outrun base 70 (skarm) but i gave it an extra 8 just in case the skarm is running 4 extra spd evs.

Syaoran January 27th, 2008 10:23 PM

what good it will do outrunning skarm? your only chance at beating it is if skarm decides to roost and then CC does SE damage, but that's when you're slower.

Gliscor pretty much counters Hariyama.

shedinjask January 28th, 2008 7:42 AM

Only if it doesn't have Ice Punch.

Which apparently it can get. Stupid Serebii not listing Emerald move tutors on the DP dex pages.

Samson January 28th, 2008 11:44 AM

if it's slower than skarm than it doesn't have a chance at all. it's better off finishing skarm with a KO.

luke January 31st, 2008 8:55 AM

Wow, this thread died fast. Okay, so it appears everyone is done with Hariyama. O_o I'll get another Pokemon ready in a minute.

A PRETTY PRETTY PRINCESS HAS APPEARED

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/gardevoir.png

Name: Gardevoir
Classification: Embrace Pokemon
Typing: Psychic
Height / Weight: 5'03" / 106.7 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Synchronize / Trace

Stats-
HP- 68
Attack- 65
Defense- 65
Special Attack- 125
Special Defense- 115
Speed- 80

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It will try to guard its trusted Trainer with its life. It has the ability to see the future.

Image courtesy of Arkeis

Dark Azelf January 31st, 2008 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loquacity (Post 3294817)
Wow, this thread died fast. Okay, so it appears everyone is done with Hariyama. O_o I'll get another Pokemon ready in a minute.

A PRETTY PRETTY PRINCESS HAS APPEARED

http://www.arkeis.com/images/pokemonfactory/gardevoir.png

Name: Gardevoir
Classification: Embrace Pokemon
Typing: Psychic
Height / Weight: 5'03" / 106.7 lbs.
Tier: Borderline (BL)
Ability: Synchronize / Trace

Stats-
HP- 68
Attack- 65
Defense- 65
Special Attack- 125
Special Defense- 115
Speed- 80

Diamond / Pearl PokeDex Entry- It will try to guard its trusted Trainer with its life. It has the ability to see the future.

Image courtesy of Arkeis

I love a pokemon who can wish support, i always use wishers and this is one of my favorites =)

[email protected]
252 HP / 48 Sp.Att / 176 Sp.Def / 32 Speed
modest Nature
Trait : Trace
- Wish
- Will-o-wisp
- Psychic
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt /Shadow Ball

Wish is for team support.

Will-o-wisp cripples physical sweepers that want to come in.

Psychic for STAB.

Last slot is up to you. Focus Blast deals with common pursuiter switch ins such as weavile and Tyranitar. Thunderbolt helps with Skarmory, Gyarados etc and Shadow Ball helps against things such as Azelf, gengar and other psychics and ghosts.

ABYAY January 31st, 2008 2:43 PM

Heh, I run a Gardevoir that turns the sweeper game topsy-turvy, excluding dragons.

[email protected] Scarf
Modest nature
252sp.atk/252spd/6HP

Psychic
Thunderbolt/HP Ice
Focus Blast
Energy Ball/HP Ice

This set actually wreaks havoc on the likes of Starmie, Gengar, MixApe, and many other things that this thing has come in to kill. Mine can't kill Weavile until I remake it with 31 speed IVs, but it can down slower Weaviles that run less speed (they'd have to have <375 speed.) Mine runs without HP Ice, but it's a considerable option when you see the Modest 383 sp. atk possibility.

However, CB Pursuit Weavile switch ins ruin it, and even CB Hera.

Samson February 1st, 2008 12:34 AM

i dint tell neones dat garvoir r bestt fisical woll in teh metaviddeo.

gardevoir can be used in so many ways. i use it as a special wall/trick room setter/BUUURNer. the only thing that we can all agree on for gardevoir is that trace is far more superior than synchronize.

kohei February 1st, 2008 1:00 AM

Gardevoir I used in Emerald that was coupled together as support with my Bellydrum-Sub-Flailing Linoone:
Nature: Either Def↑/Atk↓ or S.Def↑/Atk↓
EV: Forgot what it was exactly, but I remember it had emphasis on physical defense.
Moves:
- Memento
- WoW
- Light Screen
- Reflector

It was pretty simple. Just set up the two walls and switch to Linoone by Memento suicide (WoW if needed).
Makes Substitue creation much safer for the Linoone, so it can use Bellydrum with minimal risk.


Probably won't work much in DP due to the abundance of first-strike moves, but it was good during the old days.

boo836 February 1st, 2008 3:09 PM

Gardeviore: @ leftovers
Nature:Modest
Trait:Trace
Evs: 252 spatt, 160 spdef, 92 spd
Calm Mind
Psychic
Focus blast
Thunder bolt/ hp [ice]/ grass knot.

Yeah, the real counters to it are:

Gross, takes in moves and meteor mashes but needs to be wary of focus blast.

Spiritomb is immune to focus blast and psychic and has good defenses along with stab pursuit and sucker punch.

Hera hurts with megahorn.

T-tar destroys with pursuit or crunch.

Weavile kills with it's speed and stab'd night slash or pursuit.

Absol sucker punches but is thwarted by calm mind.

Romo_Owens February 2nd, 2008 7:13 PM

Sweeper/stunner
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
modest nature/timid nature
252 spd/216 sp.atk/36 sp.def
-Psychic
-focus blast
-thunderbolt/energy ball/shadow ball
-Hypnosis/will-o-wisp/thunder wave

Azonic February 2nd, 2008 7:25 PM

Gardevoir isn't designed for Sweeping, its designed for a Semi-Wall. It really is awful at sweeping. Please, no ScarfDevoirs ._.


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