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-   -   So I got bored... (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=128143)

Outlawed February 24th, 2008 4:33 AM

So I got bored...
 
so I got bored and wanted a nice Water-Based Team.

Kingdra @ Damp Rock
Modest
252 Sp.Atk/ 132 Spd/ 124 Hp
Hydro Pump
Rain Dance
Dragon Pulse
HP [Electric]

Perfect lead for this. Electric HP takes care of gyara leads basically. Skarm dies with HP Electric and Hydro Pump actually. Also Ice Beam I figured is a safer approach when playing hippowdon. I can simply stick with surf over hydro pump but Hydro Pump in rain dance is just too hot.

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Adamant
252 Atk/ 252 Spd/ 4 Hp
Stone Edge
Water Fall
Night Slash/ Brick Break
Rapid Spin

I love this guy, with SSwim it can reach awesome speeds and it STABs on both Stone Edge and Water Fall. I was thinking Brick Break for night slash. Also he comes in onto a not effective SR with no troubles at all.

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Calm
Trait: Rain Dish
252 Hp/ 252 Sp.def/ 4 Sp.atk
Toxic
Protect
Leech Seed
Rain Dance/ Hydro Pump

My special wall, sent out when the enemy decides to zap me with a grass move.
also with rain dish I get good HP along side Lefties. I can have it as a rain dance provider.


Electivire @ Expert Belt
Naughty
252 Atk / 176 Spe / 80 SpA
~ Thunder
~ Cross Chop
~ Earthquake
~ Ice Punch

I don't need Ice Support here do I?

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant
212 Hp / 16 Atk / 180 Def / 100 Spe
~ Taunt
~ Earthquake/Stone Edge
~ Waterfall
~ Dragon Dance/Rain Dance

I Like Gyara in the rain waterfull becomes just tooo strong. I need some Rain Dancer in this dude's place ASAP, I looked at T_S's guide but I don't know what to play as a rain dancer here.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Impish
252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 Atk
~ Brave Bird
~ Spikes
~ Roost
~ Roar

This draws in electricity and adds more speed to electivire.

flamehaze94 February 24th, 2008 2:27 PM

If you're smart enough to pick three pokemon, then you're obviously smart enough to pick six

Arcknight316 February 24th, 2008 8:27 PM

First off, focus on bulk > Speed on Kabutops. Swift Swim boosts its Speed to monstrous heights already; it only needs 404 (202 before Swift Swim) Speed.

Outlawed February 24th, 2008 8:33 PM

Would that be fast enough to outspeed a Scarfhera??
If not then we need more speed.

Anti February 24th, 2008 8:53 PM

I believe it needs 203 to beat it, I'm pretty sure 202 ties with it. I'm not totally sure though.

Outlawed February 25th, 2008 4:30 AM

that would mean barely no speed EV's/
I need a poke that can rain dance and has good deffense,any ideas??

Ársa February 25th, 2008 4:32 AM

Ludicolo, Suicune etc.

Check my guide, I just finished Rain Dance teams. Hopefully it will help, as I don't want to rate your team, it is too.....ugh... :(

~T_S

Outlawed February 25th, 2008 6:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3369570)
Ludicolo, Suicune etc.

Check my guide, I just finished Rain Dance teams. Hopefully it will help, as I don't want to rate your team, it is too.....ugh... :(

~T_S

Please don't make statements I can't understand. I'm slow sorry.
Also I just read your guide, and four of the pokemon I have up there are listed on your thing. I understand why Gyara isn't there because of the fear of Thunder, but that wont be an issue with good prediction and handy Elecvtivire on hand.

Also for the Last pokemon I'm adding a blissey with
Thunder
Softboiled
Flamethrower
Toxic

Yum Yum. with scenre grace this poke will play nicely here.
What nature and spread should I run for a bliss??
however, with bliss I will leave my self exposed to physical attacks so I added Skarm instead. Ludicolo Toxic/Leech Seed annoy is pretty nice.

I also fixed the Electivire set made it more of a mixed type.

Loto February 25th, 2008 7:10 AM

Ludicolo @ Leftovers, Damp Rock
Swift Swim over Rain Dish >_>
Calm
204 HP 80 SpA 120 SpD 104 Spe

Rain Dance
Surf
Ice Beam
Leech Seed

104 speed with swift swim allows you to our run many thing like choice scarf'd heracross in rain. 204 HP generates for highest possible leftovers threshold. Swift Swim over Rain Dish for a rain dance team in my opinion. Damp Rock can be nice here....8 turns of rain who wouldn't want that on this team?

Outlawed February 25th, 2008 10:06 AM

You are missing the point of Ludicolo here. He is a special wall annoyer not attacker O.o
Toxic, Leechseed, rain dish , lefties and protect make it annoy almost anything.

Arcknight316 February 25th, 2008 4:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3368976)
I believe it needs 203 to beat it, I'm pretty sure 202 ties with it. I'm not totally sure though.

Since it rounds down, ScarfCross's Speed lies at 403. That's why Agiligross's Speed is 202.

Outlawed, if you want, you can alter your Kabutop's speed to reach 419, to outspeed Scarf-Z, or 420, to outspeed Adamant Ninjask.

flamehaze94 February 25th, 2008 6:08 PM

Swords Dance on Kabutops! X-Scissor or Aqua Jet can go over Rapid Spin, in all honesty

GOGOGOGO

Outlawed February 26th, 2008 10:17 AM

SD on Kabutops is just overkill and it also can't take hits at all, playing swords dance here is not to my advantage. However, Aqua Jet, sounds nice.
40 Base.
60 with STAB.
90 with the rain if I'm correct. and always goes first so that I can still use it after rain dance, but I still think Waterfall is better.

Anti February 26th, 2008 12:35 PM

SD on Kabutops is in no way overkill considering the likelihood of it pulling off any KOs before dying is slim to none. The only overkill was when when Limp Bizkit "sang" Behind Blue Eyes...

But seriously SD is really helpful. Besides Kabutops relying on the rain which only lasts a few turns to boost its speed and make it as a sweeper...um Kabutops can switch in to almost nothing so that won't really be working in your favor.

Outlawed February 26th, 2008 10:09 PM

Hmm. I thought his attack would be much higher than that and considering it is rock there isn't something I can really switch into. I don't think the rain should be a problem, I can provide 15 turns easy and if kingdra lives or I switch it out, perhaps even more. Rain Dance teams need to have good attackers because they have a time limit on when they can attack. Stallers tend to be a problem though,

Ársa February 26th, 2008 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlawed (Post 3369795)
Please don't make statements I can't understand. I'm slow sorry.
Also I just read your guide, and four of the pokemon I have up there are listed on your thing. I understand why Gyara isn't there because of the fear of Thunder, but that wont be an issue with good prediction and handy Elecvtivire on hand.

Also for the Last pokemon I'm adding a blissey with
Thunder
Softboiled
Flamethrower
Toxic

Yum Yum. with scenre grace this poke will play nicely here.
What nature and spread should I run for a bliss??
however, with bliss I will leave my self exposed to physical attacks so I added Skarm instead. Ludicolo Toxic/Leech Seed annoy is pretty nice.

I also fixed the Electivire set made it more of a mixed type.

You asked what pokemon would be good in Rain and be able to use Rain Dance. I gave you some. :P

I didn't mean just use those pokemon, I meant read the whole thing. You seem to have no conception of the reasoning behind a Rain Dance Team. Ludicolo is @^*# without Swift Swim, it can outspeed things pretty well and actually become a Tank, instead of a wall. (Tank can take a hit and dish it out, Walls just take hits)

Swift Swim over Rain Dish please.

~T_S

Anti February 26th, 2008 10:16 PM

Well yes, and SD Kabutops happens to beat many stallers.

And even with 8 turns rain the duration of the weather will be a problem. Switching in Kabutops after the rain sets up takes a few turns and by the time you're in safely it's almost finished raining. then it just kinda sits there without SD and just lets Skarmory or forretress wall it for a turn or two and that's that. At least with SD you can contend with a few common counters.

EDIT: lol, Ludi is just fine without Swift Swim lololol

It doesn't even need rain to work at that. It comes in on Swampert, seeds the switch-in and Ice Beams grassers and hits everything else with STAB Surf while it stalls everything to death. Actually I prefer rain dance to make it better at what it's supposed to be doing, which happens to be stalling.

Swift Swim is cool and all but I believe this team has Kingdra for that.

Ársa February 26th, 2008 10:20 PM

Yes, but overall SS over RD.

It isn't about what pokemon uses SS better, but what Ability is better for Ludicolo.

~T_S

Anti February 26th, 2008 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3374681)
Yes, but overall SS over RD.

It isn't about what pokemon uses SS better, but what Ability is better for Ludicolo.

~T_S

And Ludi does what with Swift Swim? It sweeps well with it but Kingdra already does that here. Ludi doesn't need speed at all, and extra recovery helps it a lot more. Obviously his set isn't for sweeping but stalling, and extra speed does NOTHING to help it stall.

It doesn't even need rain at all though, I don't really get why people obsess over that so much.

Ársa February 26th, 2008 10:42 PM

It's because it is a good rain starter. (I think that's what you mean, other than that, why don't people use it for anything but Rain Dance Teams?) I have no problem with Ludi outside a RD team, but I think there are some pokes that do it better in that regard.

Ludicolo hits things with reasonable damage yes? Rain Dish increases your HP by 1/16, so say 1/8 with Leftovers per turn. Now you Protect on one turn, so you get 1/4 Health over 2 Turns. That is like 10%-35%. If you are too slow, and cannot kill something, it is simply going to walk over the top of you. Scarfcross, any Salamence set etc. are all killed if you can outspeed them. A faster Leech Seed, or a faster Ice Beam = 1 kill compared to 25% Health gain.

~T_S

Anti February 26th, 2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3374709)
It's because it is a good rain starter. (I think that's what you mean, other than that, why don't people use it for anything but Rain Dance Teams?) I have no problem with Ludi outside a RD team, but I think there are some pokes that do it better in that regard.

Ludicolo hits things with reasonable damage yes? Rain Dish increases your HP by 1/16, so say 1/8 with Leftovers per turn. Now you Protect on one turn, so you get 1/4 Health over 2 Turns. That is like 10%-35%. If you are too slow, and cannot kill something, it is simply going to walk over the top of you. Scarfcross, any Salamence set etc. are all killed if you can outspeed them. A faster Leech Seed, or a faster Ice Beam = 1 kill compared to 25% Health gain.

~T_S

But you're missing the point of the set. For starters, it doesn't even have Ice Beam. Also Heracross will smash Ludi in the rain or not in the rain (95 base SDef is very good) and will give it a STAB Megahorn.

Toxic never needs to go first, Protect has a speed priority, and Leech Seed also does not need to go first. Really, speed DOES NOT help that set AT ALL.

Also recovering 25% of your health in two turns is nothing to sneeze at vs. going first against sweepers that laugh at you anyways...sorry, it just makes absolutely no sense.

Ársa February 26th, 2008 11:01 PM

It does if it means win or lose. I'm going to forget I ever heard you say Ludicolo doesn't get Ice Beam... (It does o.0)(:P) There is a problem with your Theory. You suggest that Heracross isn't damaged on a Switch in, and then you asssume that Ludicolo will stay in when it has a free move. Ludicolo isn't a switch into Heracross, and it definately wouldn't be switching into a Megahorn anyway. Heracross doesn't usually care for Ludicolo because most run Rain Dish, but if it is outsped an killed, there it goes. Rain Dish is nice, granted, but it is like the "Sand Veil vs Arena Trap" on Duggy. Arena Trap traps opponents. (Duh!) So you can revenge kill by switching into something slower. Same goes for Ludicolo, but because of the low standard it is set at, it can surprise quite a few. 2HKO CS Heracross with STAB Surf in Rain I believe, 1HKO's min 4HP Salamence and outspeeds to kill with Ice Beam. It can still function how it is meant to, but it can now do a double job as a back-up sweeper.

~T_S

Anti February 26th, 2008 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3374734)
It does if it means win or lose.

But it won't ever mean that unless there are just plain weird circumstances.

I'm going to forget I ever heard you say Ludicolo doesn't get Ice Beam... (It does o.0)(:P)

No, I said it isn't in his set :/

There is a problem with your Theory. You suggest that Heracross isn't damaged on a Switch in, and then you asssume that Ludicolo will stay in when it has a free move.

Heracross isn't damaged on the switch in. I assume Ludicolo is going to stay in because those are the circumstances you're working with. In your post you mentioned that Ludi could beat Heracross in the rain.

Ludicolo isn't a switch into Heracross,

Never said it was.

and it definately wouldn't be switching into a Megahorn anyway.

I may be stupid but I'm not THAT stupid.

Heracross doesn't usually care for Ludicolo because most run Rain Dish, but if it is outsped an killed, there it goes.

But Ludi can't kill Heracross :/ Heracross can kill back. Even in rain and outpseeding Heracross it will survive anything Ludicolo throws at it and OHKO with Megahorn.

Rain Dish is nice, granted, but it is like the "Sand Veil vs Arena Trap" on Duggy. Arena Trap traps opponents. (Duh!) So you can revenge kill by switching into something slower.

That's a terrible analogy. Dugtrio is useless without Arena Trap, as in it relies on Arena trap for it to be useful. Ludi doesn't need either ability to be useful. Honestly I don't see how that relates at all.

Same goes for Ludicolo, but because of the low standard it is set at, it can surprise quite a few.

But you're missing the point of the set he is trying to run. He is not trying to surpise sweepers like Salamence, he's trying to toxistall with some leech seed action. That's it.

2HKO CS Heracross with STAB Surf in Rain I believe,

Okay, so above you say I'm just assuming Ludi is going to stay in on Heracross as if it shouldn't (which it shouldn't of course) and now you're talking about trying to beat it one on one. You can't have it both ways :/

1HKO's min 4HP Salamence and outspeeds to kill with Ice Beam.

His set DOES NOT HAVE ICE BEAM.

It can still function how it is meant to, but it can now do a double job as a back-up sweeper.

It can't toxistall, leech seed crap, AND sweep or even kind of sweep. You can't mix 2 or 3 sets with Ludi, you have to choose one and roll with it.

~T_S

You're totally ignoring what his set is trying to accomplish.

This is his set from the first post:

"Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Calm
Trait: Rain Dish
252 Hp/ 252 Sp.def/ 4 Sp.atk
Toxic
Protect
Leech Seed
Rain Dance/ Hydro Pump

My special wall, sent out when the enemy decides to zap me with a grass move.
also with rain dish I get good HP along side Lefties. I can have it as a rain dance provider."

So tell me how Swift Swim is going to help that.

Swift Swim is VERY useful on the sweeper variants of Ludicolo that are meant to do just what you are saying and slay dragons and all that other stuff, but this set obviously isn't trying to do that and assuming Swift Swim will allow it to is ridiculous because it can't.

Swift Swim is needed on sweeper sets but this isn't designed to sweep so trying to make it take on heavyweights it can't beat anyways like Heracross and Salamence is stupid. It really is.

If he was running Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Rain Dance, obvious rain ish would be inferior, but you're forgetting Swift Swim doesn't help the set he is running at all.

Ársa February 27th, 2008 2:51 AM

Ok, I see I cannot make reason, so I will just let it go. I don't want to get us both infracted again. :P

~T_S

Outlawed February 27th, 2008 4:17 AM

Wow, intense stuff. Thanks both of you for that :)
Also, I ask T_S, what happens when the rain stops and I have Ice Beam and Surf and Swift Swim i uselss.
Raind Dish + Toxic is just something to get me more HP and stall anything.
That is why even with out rain, lefties and LS will get me HP while I Heal and protect.


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