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Arcknight316 March 22nd, 2008 7:06 PM

Stall Team: My First Attempt
 
I've actually put a little thought into this >:O

Here's the team:

Azumarill (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall / Return
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch

Designed to deal damage, but since it's slow and has max HP, I guess it deserves a spot on a Stall Team. Also can take Flamethrowers aimed at Jirachi.

---
Slowbro (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 212 HP/252 Def/46 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Surf
- Slack Off
- Grass Knot
- Calm Mind

CMBro, 'nuff said. Helps absorb Flamethrowers, Focus Blasts, and other Fire and Fighting type moves.

---
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 22 HP/252 Def/20 SAtk/216 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Softboiled
- Aromatherapy

Blissey. Thunderbolt is for Gyarados.

---
Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP/212 Def/58 SAtk
Sassy nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Roar

Takes Electric attacks aimed at Slowbro and Azumarrill and offers additional coverage on taking Flamethrower for Jirachi.

---
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 240 HP/56 Atk/76 Def/136 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
- Wish
- Stealth Rock

Absorbs Grass attacks aimed at my Waters and Rhyperior and Wishes to heal my team.

---
Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 132 HP/126 Atk/252 Def
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Megahorn
- Earthquake

Sub-Puncher. Helps absorb Flamethrowers, but repeated abuse hurts. Also absorbs Thunderbolts. My many Waters can take Surfs for it.

---

It's my very first time making a Stall Team, and it will probably suck. But, the question is.....is it usable? O_o

EDIT: Currently thinking of swapping out Skarmory. I'm thinking of something bulky (especially in the Defensive department), but can also deal out heavy damage. I'm thinking Rhyperior. Since I already have a CBer, I'm thinking of making it a Max DEF, 404 HP, and the rest in Attack Sub-Puncher. While you guys are pondering whether I should do this or not, I'm gonna go ahead and add it for now.

EDIT 2: OK, Rhyperior has been added.

EDIT 3: Replaced Regice for Blissey.

EDIT 4: Hold up, making a threat list now....will be posted soon.

EDIT 5: Threat List:

Gyarados: Blissey can switch in without much difficulty and can Thunderbolt.
Lucario: Swampert can take it, both forms. Hopefully. EQ will do heavy damage.
Porygon-Z: Blissey can take it.
Electivire: Against Solid Rock Rhyperior it doesn't stand a chance.
Gengar: Blissey.
Alakazam: Blissey.
Heracross: Hopefully Azumarrill can switch in and give it a good Aqua Jetting. That will at least get it to low health. After that, Swampert can come in and Hydro Pump.
Salamence: Blissey can take Specs, and Slowbro and Rhyperior should be able to handle CB. Swampert can handle Mixed ones.
Garchomp: Azumarrill can "revenge kill", Swampert can Ice Beam.
Tyranitar: Swampert can take Boah, DD ones without Ice Beam can be handled by Rhyperior, and those with Ice Beam can be handled by Swampert. This is why I was thinking of giving Swampert just enough Spd EVs to outrun Quiet Tyranitar. Should I?
Raikou: Swampert can take it.
Azelf: Blissey. Mixed ones can be handled by Swampert, and Jirachi and Slowbro could probably take the Explosion.
Heatran: Blissey. Explosion probably won't OHKO it anyway.

If anyone thinks I should add a Pokemon to this list, then tell me.

Anti March 23rd, 2008 5:38 PM

Raikou 6-0s this team, as does Mixape.

Anyways, having a choice Bander (the total opposite of stalling) on a stall team is a no-no. You also have 3 waters, which defensively cripples you horribly, not to mention Rhyperior which also dies to grass attacks.

Also Slowbro has pretty bad SDef, so switching into boosted Flamethrowers and Focus Blasts are still going to hurt a lot. I know it has CM, but you'll take 2 hits before getting one Calm Mind off. That's not good.

also about your threat list...no. Explosion on Heatran will OHKO Blissey, especially one with almost no HP EVs. Also I must say that when I saw the "Blissey counters Gyarados" part, I about threw up. 10 base defense vs. an attackinjg machine with a powerful STAB move and Dragon Dance...no. Thunderbolt won't even OHKO and Waterfall will end Blissey. Period.

Also Swampert cannot take Raikou if it has HP Grass, and you can't rule that out. Also Swameprt is OHKOed by SD Close Combat from Lucario and SpecsLuke Aura Sphere...I don't have exact calcs, but it will hurt. A LOT. Also Gengar and Zam can threaten you with Specs Focus Blast. While slowbro might seem like a cool switch, but Specs Focus Blasts wear down on something as weak on the special defensive side as Slowbro.

The threat list is also very incomplete. One would think it would at least have Skarmory and Blissey. You also lack Infernape, Suicune, Hippowdon, Milotic, Gallade, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Celebi, Jirachi, Swampert, Regice, Donphan, Forretress, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Kingdra, Aerodactyl, Breloom, Bronzong, Spiritomb, Gliscor, Metagross, Machamp, Dragonite, Ninjask, Snorlax, Yanmega, Weavile...yeah.

So to answer your question "is it usable," I have to be honest here and say it really isn't. A quad grass weak is no help as well.

To fix this dilemma, I think it would be best to scrap the dead weight. Rhyperior and Azumarill just...do nothing. Take them out to help patch up your weaknesses. Honestly CM Slowbro isn't that hot in this instance either, just kind of waiting for Weavile to own you...and with Swampert it doesn't add much. Jir, Pert, and Bliss are cool and all, but the others do not fit (unless you want to change how this team is to operate, but that would be a whole different story and blah blah blah...)

You'll want to focus on countering "The Big 5" as I call them. Garchomp, Salamence, Gyarados, Infernape, and Heracross are the 5 sweepers I like to e sure I can counter, though you can really put any awesome 5 sweepers in there. You counter most specials will Blissey, but remember some can beat it so you'll want to be prepared for that. It's best to run Blissey with a ghost to absorb explosion from Azelf, Heatran and friends and they also cover up that fighting weakness. Gengar is a bad choice for this though when we're talking about a stall team.

The physical side is much tougher. You'll want to be able to resist major attack types. You'll want a ground immunity, fighting resist (covered by the ghost if you use one to help Blissey), rock resist, normal resist...yeah. You'll also want something to take water attacks from Gyara and Azumarill too. Usually a bulky water works for this unless it's Swampert. Optional stuff is Bug, Steel, and fire...just be sure you can handle Heracross, Metagross, and Infernape okay.

It's pretty elaborate to actually cover everything and it's probably impossible, so just counter the most important stuff to you and roll with that. So if you replace the 3 I mentioned, what would you put in? I'm not trying to be the Grinch, just telling you what I see ;)

Oh, and for future reference, on Subpunchers, EQ is always a bad choice since it doesn't add to you coverage at all. Rock type moves are more useful, so on Rhyinferior I'd go for Stone Edge over Earthquake in all honesty. Of course, I wouldn't keep it on this team, but just so ya know ;)

Dark Azelf March 23rd, 2008 5:58 PM

Also, just to add, (I can finally say this) you cant do anything to Nasty Plot Azelf, its a 6- 0 sweep.


Run

[email protected]
40 HP / 252 DEF / 216 SP.DEF
Calm Nature
Trait : Natural Cure
- Thunderwave
- Seismic Toss
- Softboiled
- Aromatheraphy

This has never let me down yet.



You also lack Toxic Spikes, Spikes, a Spin Blocker and some way to deal with stalling pokemon, namely Cresselia, Suicune Curselax, perish Song is nice to deal with these. There is non- if any residual damage here, which is what stall teams rely on.


Ironically, this is another stall teams dream, you are very easily stalled if they get Toxic Spikes up, its GG, you dont even have a Rapid Spinner =/

Tyranitar also loves you, a Life Orb'd/Black Glasses Dragon Danced Crunch decimates Swampert and it then proceeds to Taunt all of your walls.......

Arcknight316 March 23rd, 2008 7:02 PM

OK, I'm gonna go...um...update everything now......

BTW, I need SOMETHING that can dish out damage. Azumarill and Rhyperior are out of the picture, while Boah's Sandstorm will screw up my team. What should I use?

EDIT: I know! MetaBoah!

Metagross @ Leftovers
Quiet
252 HP, 176 SATK, 82 ATK
Meteor Mash
Explosion
Grass Knot
HP Ice

MM for STAB, Explosion for immense power, GK for Bulky Waters, HP Ice for Dragons.

Anti March 24th, 2008 9:40 AM

You aren't understanding the purpose of Stall Teams. They don't rely on direct damage like Rhyperior, Azumarill, and Metagross do. Stall teams rely on Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and weather damage to wear down the opposing team quickly. Sometimes one attacker is okay, but that should be the LAST thing on your mind.

Also Metaboah...no.

Dark Azelf March 24th, 2008 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3428580)
You aren't understanding the purpose of Stall Teams. They don't rely on direct damage like Rhyperior, Azumarill, and Metagross do. Stall teams rely on Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Spikes, and weather damage to wear down the opposing team quickly. Sometimes one attacker is okay, but that should be the LAST thing on your mind.

Also Metaboah...no.

YES, THIS NEEDS RESIDUAL DAMAGE AND PLENTY OF IT !


Seriously, what do you think your gonna accomplish with Stealth Rock and a metagame weak team.

You dont need ANY sweepers on a stall team, just tanks walls and residual damage.


Again you still dont have a Rapid Spinner =/ or a PHazer.




Ill give you an example of a stall team.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf

[email protected] Shell
252 HP / 108 DEF / 96 SP.DEF / 52 sp.att
Ivs : 0 Speed
Relaxed Nature (+DEF, - Speed)
Trait : Levitate
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot
- Earthquake

My lead, anti Swampert (hence Grass Knot), Weavile, Tyranitar etc. Sets up SR. Evs give you equal defenses. Earthquake is for Metagross, Lucario etc.

[email protected]
172 HP / 120 SP.ATT / 216 SPEED.
Timid Nature (+ Speed, - Attack)
Trait : Natural Cure
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

Arguable the best spinner and my immediate road block for Gyarados and infernape, aswell as most other bulky waters not named swampert =).

[email protected]
252 DEF / 216 SP.DEF / 40 Sp.Att
Calm Nature (+ Sp.Def, - Attack)
Trait : Natural Cure
- Flamethrower
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- protect

I lack a fire move, well not now i have Flamethrower, namely to kill steels that float, its also hits common switch ins hard, Heracross, breloom, Lucario, Metagross, etc and the list goes on. Provides Wish support and my sp.wall. I havent got the luxury of Toxic, as subers such as CM Kou etc will rape me, as much as id love it on here, S-Toss is needed.

[email protected]
252 HP / 100 DEF / 156 SP.DEF
Calm nature (+ Sp.Def, - Attack)
- Hidden power Fighting
- Shadow Ball
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

/THE/ Spin Blocker and status absorber, Pressure Stalls like mad aswell. Azelf and Gengar really cant do anything to this dude either. Its immune to Psychic, Explosion and neutral to all other moves, if gengar Hypnotizes me, it still looses =). Fighting and Ghost hit everything in the game for at least neutral, loves coming in on dusknoir aswell.

[email protected]
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Attack
Impish nature (+ Def, - sp.att.)
Trait : Battle Armor
- Night Slash
- Taunt
- Toxic Spikes
- Whirlwind

The resistances are lacking, but the stats certainly arnt, this survives an EQ from an Adamant Choice Scarf Garchomp. Absorbs Toxic Spikes on contact and sets up his own , which have been the bane of me when i dont run tentacruel. Another selling point is that its immune to critical hits. This thing has base 95 speed, which is extremely fast for a tank, Taunt, as the rest of my team cant hurt Cresselia too much, but with taunt, it gets raped, also Taunt stops set ups. Another interesting thing about this, is that is can indeed PHaze, who gave it Whirlwind and Toxic spikes is a genius.

[email protected]
252 HP / 186 def / 72 speed
Impish nature (+ Def, - Sp.Att)
- Knock off
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang.

As im abusing T-Spikes, guts abusers tend to rape me, well lol not now. Knock off is dangerous, no matter how you look at it. It allows me to see what item my counters are running, cripples things by removing their leftovers, hell even give me a rough estimate of what set they are running, Taunt stops last poke sweeps, such as CM Cune and Curse lax, suggestion ?. The speed evs allow me to outrun Jolly Tyranitar and even the rare Timid Magnezone, so i can Earthquake both into oblivion before they can Ice Beam/Hidden power Ice me. ice Fang is because of DD Nite and SD chomp, no questions asked.



This is/was my stall team, as you can see, no SWEEPERS. Use this as an example, dont copy it though or i get angry >=[, i would link you to Obi's beastly stall team, but linking to other forums isnt allowed..

Richard Lynch March 24th, 2008 10:15 AM

Mixape does massacre this team, if played right.

I think a good bulky Ghost type with Psychic would help you out bunches. You could try Spiritomb, just jack him up with some Special Attack EVs, run Psychic, Will-O-Wisp, Pain Split, and another move of your choice. It's possible to run Sucker Punch with a -Speed nature (such as Sassy) to not worry about a decrease in power, and the fact that Spiritomb ain't gonna outrun anything it needs to anyways.

Running a stall team myself, I've come to a conclusion that a powerful STAB "always strike first" move is virtually required, since anything with Dragon Dance and Taunt will cause massive problems if you can't take them out in two turns (Gyarados comes to mind for this team, much like mine).

Arcknight316 March 24th, 2008 4:56 PM

I haven't added this yet, but how's this for changes?

BlissRachPert is staying.

1. 1st Slot is undecided.
2. Cresselia goes over Slowbro. It's much more sturdy, and can take EQ's.
3. The last slot will be a Starmie. It'll be the only fast thing on my team, but it won't be a Sweeper; it'll RS.

Anti March 24th, 2008 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nightfall* (Post 3429902)
I haven't added this yet, but how's this for changes?

BlissRachPert is staying.

Um...what? Please tell me who "Rach" is. Jirachi?

1. 1st Slot is undecided.
2. Cresselia goes over Slowbro. It's much more sturdy, and can take EQ's.
3. The last slot will be a Starmie. It'll be the only fast thing on my team, but it won't be a Sweeper; it'll RS.

The rest of this is still asking to be murdered by Weavile. Starmie is generally not my favorite choice for a rapid spinner on a stall team since it can be KOed by Weavile and you get the field spiked on you. It isn't very bulky as well (really, it isn't) so even with Recover you're prone to take a few hits.

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 8:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3429911)
The rest of this is still asking to be murdered by Weavile. Starmie is generally not my favorite choice for a rapid spinner on a stall team since it can be KOed by Weavile and you get the field spiked on you. It isn't very bulky as well (really, it isn't) so even with Recover you're prone to take a few hits.

It is actually bulky 85/85 defenses say otherwise, mine has even taken a Life Orb'd Outrage from a Dragonite =)

Anti March 25th, 2008 9:26 AM

How is 85 bulky? That's only 5 up from Salamence, and I don't think it's considered bulky. Let's not forget Starmie has a ton of weaknesses and only 60 base HP =/

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 9:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3431821)
How is 85 bulky? That's only 5 up from Salamence, and I don't think it's considered bulky. Let's not forget Starmie has a ton of weaknesses and only 60 base HP =/

So, it also kills key things, which his team is weak to, namely mixape and Gyarados or Garchomp if he chooses Ice Beam.


172 HP EVS Give 304 hp and with Base 85 defenses, it can take more hits than you'd expect. Its honestly not frail as you were suggesting in your previous post.

Anti March 25th, 2008 9:37 AM

I've used Starmie, and it takes nuetral hits okay, it isn't fragile like Gengar, but for a "bulky" pokemon it is indeed fragile.

It has so many weaknesses Celebi is laughing and has average defenses and pretty bad HP. It really IS frail if you're considering it "bulky." For a sweeper, it can take a few hits, but let's not kid ourselves here. Any boosted hit WILL take it down, most likely in one hit. That isn't what I would call "bulky."

EDIT: The point being that it definitely isn't great for a stall team IMO. Weavile doesn't make its life any easier.

EDIT 2: It also depends on how good defensively a pokemon has to be to be "bulky."

For me it has to involve having few weaknesses, some useful resistances, and generally good (not average) defensive stats. Swampert is a good example. Pretty good defensive stats and awesome HP, combined with a fire and rock resistance as well as only one weakness (which is an uncommon move type, though it is a 4x weak).

Starmie has only okay defensive stats, a ton of weaknesses (to common types too). It does have a few awesome resistances though, like Fighting, fire, Water, and Ice. Still, its defensive stats can get in the way of it using those resistances like a true bulky water, tank, or wall could. I wouldn't say Starmie is fragile in general, but if you look, its defensive stats aren't a whole lot better than those of Azelf, which is not buolky I think we could agree on.

Sora_8920 March 25th, 2008 11:00 AM

@ DA, I think Anti's trying to say even if you invest HP EVs on something that is frail, it still Isn't going to be on a stall a team unless It's a LOT more defensive and has the beforementioned moves, Spikes ; SR ; Leech Seed ; etcetera.

Your Jirachi is a good example of a stall pokemon. Ludicolo is one of the best, if not, the best stall pokemon, Crobat is pretty good at stalling as well, especially with the set DA has been spreading around. :O

EDIT: And something that has common weaknesses Isn't too good as well, like Anti mentioned above.

Lalapizzame March 25th, 2008 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nightfall* (Post 3423553)
EDIT 5: Threat List:

Gyarados: Blissey can switch in without much difficulty and can Thunderbolt.
Lucario: Swampert can take it, both forms. Hopefully. EQ will do heavy damage.
Porygon-Z: Blissey can take it.
Electivire: Against Solid Rock Rhyperior it doesn't stand a chance.
Gengar: Blissey.
Alakazam: Blissey.
Heracross: Hopefully Azumarrill can switch in and give it a good Aqua Jetting. That will at least get it to low health. After that, Swampert can come in and Hydro Pump.
Salamence: Blissey can take Specs, and Slowbro and Rhyperior should be able to handle CB. Swampert can handle Mixed ones.
Garchomp: Azumarrill can "revenge kill", Swampert can Ice Beam.
Tyranitar: Swampert can take Boah, DD ones without Ice Beam can be handled by Rhyperior, and those with Ice Beam can be handled by Swampert. This is why I was thinking of giving Swampert just enough Spd EVs to outrun Quiet Tyranitar. Should I?
Raikou: Swampert can take it.
Azelf: Blissey. Mixed ones can be handled by Swampert, and Jirachi and Slowbro could probably take the Explosion.
Heatran: Blissey. Explosion probably won't OHKO it anyway.

If anyone thinks I should add a Pokemon to this list, then tell me.

How does Blissey counter Gyarados?Gyarados could Dragon Dance if it switches in and then just kill Blissey and someone already talked about it.Garchomp could easily kill Swampert with Swords Dance.If Outrage had Swords Dance support then it does 93.81% - 110.40%.You still think you can kill Garchomp?You only get to 2HKO it while it at least 2HKOs you before you 2HKO it.

Sora_8920 March 25th, 2008 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalapizzame (Post 3432186)
How does Blissey counter Gyarados?Gyarados could Dragon Dance if it switches in and then just kill Blissey and someone already talked about it.Garchomp could easily kill Swampert with Swords Dance.If Outrage had Swords Dance support then it does 93.81% - 110.40%.You still think you can kill Garchomp?You only get to 2HKO it while it at least 2HKOs you before you 2HKO it.

Thanks for pointing that out, lalapizzame, I forgot to add that.

Lalapizzame March 25th, 2008 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2007 (Post 3432202)
Thanks for pointing that out, lalapizzame, I forgot to add that.

Glad to help. :) I'm really starting to get used to rating but I'm still a novice at rating.

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2007 (Post 3432075)
@ DA, I think Anti's trying to say even if you invest HP EVs on something that is frail, it still Isn't going to be on a stall a team unless It's a LOT more defensive and has the beforementioned moves, Spikes ; SR ; Leech Seed ; etcetera.

Your Jirachi is a good example of a stall pokemon. Ludicolo is one of the best, if not, the best stall pokemon, Crobat is pretty good at stalling as well, especially with the set DA has been spreading around. :O

EDIT: And something that has common weaknesses Isn't too good as well, like Anti mentioned above.

HP: 60 meh....

Attack: 75 XD

Defense: 85 Descent

SpAtk: 100 good

SpDef: 85 descent

Speed: 115 Very good.

Not frail.

This is what you call frail , Dugtrio : - Base 35 hp / Base 55 def / Base 70 sp.def =/

BIG Difference, as you can see.


@Anti, The thing im getting at, is that you said here
Quote:

It isn't very bulky as well (really, it isn't) so even with Recover you're prone to take a few hits.
<That implies its frail, which it quite clearly isnt. Thats what go to me, in all honestly can you name another poke, that can take Garchomp, Gyarados AND Infernape, that can fit into this team ? To make it less metagame weak AND Spin, i cant......






But is it just me or is he taking no notice of advice, still no spinner, unneeded replacements and just general lack of any walling power to common threats. Which all in all is fail tbh.


Quote:

Gyarados: Blissey can switch in without much difficulty and can Thunderbolt.

Yeah, not all gyarados are Bulky, some have max attack AND a Life Orb, which = Kthnxbai blissey,Thunderbolt it also not a ohko on gyarados, hell even Choice Band Gyarados, i seriously hope your not going to be hoping to wall a pokemon with base 125 att with a pokemon with base 10 def =/

Lucario: Swampert can take it, both forms. Hopefully. EQ will do heavy damage.

Yeah, Swords Dance Lucario practically ohkos Skarmory and that has base 140 def =/ Something tells me that is wrong if you say swampert can take it. Aura Sphere wastes it on the specs set and gets 2hko'd IIrc, so it cant switch in.


Porygon-Z: Blissey can take it.

Yah-ish

Electivire: Against Solid Rock Rhyperior it doesn't stand a chance.

Hidden power Grass, so you cant switch in.

Gengar: Blissey.

Life Orb Gengar w/Focus Punch & Explosion says hi.

Alakazam: Blissey.


Trick specs ? Encore ? Focus Blast ? Fine otherwise


Heracross:Hopefully Azumarrill can switch in and give it a good Aqua Jetting. That will at least get it to low health. After that, Swampert can come in and Hydro Pump.

Hahaha, Yeah, good luck taking a Choice Banded megahorn or Close Combat, whilst you switch in

Salamence: Blissey can take Specs, and Slowbro and Rhyperior should be able to handle CB. Swampert can handle Mixed ones.

No swampert kinda cant handle mixed ones, Life Orbs Draco meteor 2hko's.

Garchomp: Azumarrill can "revenge kill", Swampert can Ice Beam.

How can it revenge kill ? Aqua Jet doesnt ohko, and if Garchomp swords dances whilst you switch in your done. Same with swampert, Ice Beam is not a ohko, although it wrecks Chomp Silly, chomp will beat you with Earthquake, due to it being faster. If it swords dances on the switch. However Scarf Chomp is beaten by swampert though.


Tyranitar: Swampert can take Boah, DD ones without Ice Beam can be handled by Rhyperior, and those with Ice Beam can be handled by Swampert. This is why I was thinking of giving Swampert just enough Spd EVs to outrun Quiet Tyranitar. Should I?

Yep, this is fine

Raikou: Swampert can take it.

Hidden power Grass says hi. Even though its uncommon, it NEEDS mentioning, dont assume all Kou use HP Ice

Azelf: Blissey. Mixed ones can be handled by Swampert, and Jirachi and Slowbro could probably take the Explosion.

No, whilst your doing ass to it and without Thunderwave, its going to Nasty Plot up 2 times and 2hko you with psychic.

Swampert cant take mixed, Grass Knot is standard on MixElf, even life Orb'd Psychic owns swampy. I also highly doubt Azelf will explode until its done as much damage as possible, which means Slowbro will most likely not be able to take the explosion, as it will have taken residual damage before hand. Even at full health Life Orb'd Explosion coming off base 125 att will likely ohko Slowbro.



Heatran: Blissey. Explosion probably won't OHKO it anyway.

Life Orb Explosion wrecks Blissey silly, also have you ever heard of Metal Sound/Taunt Heatran ?



Seriously flawed threat list.


I love how you missed Weavile and some other common threats out aswell........

Quote:

Tyranitar: Rock/Dark. Choice Banded Crunch, Stone Edge/Rock Slide and Pursuit from 134 Base Attack. Tyranitar can also boast Dragon Dance or 101 HP Substitutes and utilize Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower/Fire Blast with 95 Base Special Attack and great all around defenses. Its "Sand Stream" also limits the durability of non-Rock, -Steel and -Ground Types, while also boosting by 1.5× the Special Defense of itself and all other Rock type pokémon.

Gyarados: Water/Flying. 125 Base Attack, 100 Base Special Defense, 95 Base HP, Dragon Dance, "Intimidate", fantastic typing, and physical STAB in Waterfall to replace its lost physical Hidden Power Flying from Advance. Also boasts Stone Edge, Earthquake, Ice Fang and, possibly its most threatening move, Taunt, which now lasts 3-5 turns instead of always two.

Infernape: Fire/Fighting. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, 108 Base Speed, 104 Base Attack and Special Attack, and a very, very diverse movepool, including, of most importance: Close Combat, Flare Blitz, Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, Flamethrower, Hidden Power Ice and Grass Knot.

Azelf: Psychic. 115 Base Speed, 125 Base Special Attack and Attack, Nasty Plot, "Levitate", Psychic, Flamethrower, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, U-turn and Explosion.

Electivire: Electric. 123 Base Attack, a unique Ability in "Motor Drive" that raises its speed by 1.5× whenever an electric attack is used on it, 95 Base Special Attack and Speed, and the ability, with a Thunderbolt/Cross Chop/Earthquake/Ice Punch moveset, to score a Super Effective Hit on 13 of the 17 pokémon types (all but Psychic, Ghost, Bug and Fighting types).

Heracross: Bug/Fighting. 125 Base Attack, an Ability in "Guts" that raises its attack by 1.5× when afflicted with a status condition (PAR, BRN, PSN), 85 base Speed, 95 base Special Defense, and a great physical movepool, including, of most importance: Close Combat, Megahorn, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Pursuit, Swords Dance, Night Slash, Endure and Reversal. Can also utilize Choice Scarf to boost its average speed to surprise enemies.

Salamence: Dragon/Flying. 135 Base Attack, 110 Base Special Attack, 100 Base Speed, "Intimidate", and the ability, with either Choice Band or Choice Specs, to hit EXTREMELY hard off the bat from both ends of the damage spectrum. Besides Dragon Dance, its large movepool includes: Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Brick Break, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Dragon Pulse and Roost.

Togekiss: Normal/Flying. 120 Base Special Attack, 115 Base Special Defense, 80 Base Speed, and an Ability in "Serene Grace" that doubles the extra effects of moves that have them. Its movepool includes: Nasty Plot, Air Slash (60% flinch with "Serene Grace"), Aura Sphere, Wish/Softboiled/Roost, Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Tri Attack (illegal with Nasty Plot) and Grass Knot.

Gengar: Ghost/Poison. 130 base Special Attack, 110 Base Speed and "Levitate". Its fantastic movepool includes: Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Hypnosis, Focus Blast, Will-o-wisp, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Explosion and Destiny Bond.

Garchomp: Dragon/Ground. 102 Base Speed, 130 Attack, very solid defenses, and an Ability in "Sand Veil" that raises its evasion 20% in a Sandstorm. Its movepool includes: Swords Dance, Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Fire Fang, Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Stone Edge/Rock Slide and Outrage.

Lucario: Fighting/Steel: 110 Base Attack, 115 Base Special Attack, 90 base speed. Its obscene movepool includes: Close Combat, Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Crunch, Endure, Reversal, Calm Mind, Extremespeed, Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Bullet Punch, Bulk Up, Agility, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse.

Starmie: Water/Psychic. 115 Base Speed, 100 Base Special Attack and "Natural Cure". Can work very well with or without Choice Specs thanks to a great movepool that includes: Surf, Psychic, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Recover and Rapid Spin. Its adequate, somewhat-overlooked 85 base Defense and Special Defense make it a surprisingly durable threat with Recover.

Weavile: Dark/Ice. 120 Base Attack, 125 Base Speed, Swords Dance, Night Slash, Ice Punch, Brick Break and a STABbed Pursuit and Ice Shard make this a threat with or without Choice Band.

Dugtrio: Ground. 120 Base Speed, 80 Base Attack. Only used for its "Arena Trap" trait, which prevents all pokémon that aren't Flying types or that don't have the Levitate ability from switching, making Dugtrio's Choice Banded or Life Orbed Earthquake, Aerial Ace, Night Slash or Sucker Punch quick and efficient. A "threat" because it can stop other threats like Tyranitar, Infernape and Raikou from running rampant, and makes you think twice about building a team loaded with pokémon Dugtrio can kill off easily.

Porygon-Z: Normal. 135 Base Special Attack, 90 Base Speed, a unique Ability in "Adaptability" that makes its Same Type Attack Bonus 2× instead of 1.5×, Nasty Plot, Tri Attack, Shadow Ball, Recover, Agility, Hidden Power Fighting for Rock and Steel types, and the ability to OHKO a full Health Blissey with a Nasty Plot, Adaptability, Life Orb Hyper Beam.

Machamp: Fighting. 130 Base Attack, 90 Base HP, 80 Base Defense, 85 Base Special Defense. Already a viable threat with "Guts", Machamp's "No Guard" gives all of its attacks — and its opponents' — 100% accuracy, which is great news for its Dynamicpunch, Cross Chop, Stone Edge and Mega Kick. Machamp also has Close Combat, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Bullet Punch and Bulk Up at its disposal.

Snorlax: Normal. 160 Base HP, 110 Base Attack and Special Defense, 65 Base Defense. With Curse, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Return/Frustration/Body Slam, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Selfdestruct and Crunch, Snorlax can contend with Skarmory a little better in this generation. Its "Thick Fat" Ability still halves the damage from Fire and Ice attack, and Rest can annoy you with or without Sleep Talk if you're not prepared.

Zapdos: Electric/Flying. 125 Base Special Attack, 100 base Speed, 90 Base HP, Attack and Special Defense, 85 Base Defense. With Thunderbolt, Roost, Discharge, U-turn, Hidden Power Ice or Grass, Substitute, Agility, and Baton Pass, Zapdos can be quite the nuisance, not to mention how well it can use Rest/Sleep Talk with its "Pressure" Ability.

Suicune: Water. 100 Base HP, 90 Base Special Attack, 115 Base Defense and Special Defense, 85 Base Speed. Calm Mind, Surf, Ice Beam, Roar, Rest and Sleep Talk with its "Pressure" Ability make this virtually unchanged threat from Advance just as hard to beat in DP if you're not ready.

Breloom: Grass/Fighting. 130 Base Attack, 70 Base Speed. Spore is the best move in the game hands down, and "Poison Heal", which grants Breloom 12.5% HP Recovery (to Leftovers' 6.25%) when Poisoned (easy to accomplish with Toxic Orb), is arguably a top-five Ability when you consider it will grant Breloom immunity to other status as well. To complement these unique tools, Breloom can utilize Focus Punch, Seed Bomb, Mach Punch, Substitute, ThunderPunch (though illegal with Poison Heal) Sky Uppercut, Stone Edge and Leech Seed.

Ninjask: Bug/Flying. 90 Base Attack, 160 Base Speed, an Ability in "Speed Boost" that raises its speed by one stage every turn. Among its main options: Substitute, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Aerial Ace, X-Scissor, U-Turn and Protect. Mainly a threat on full-fledged Baton Pass teams that utilize Ingrain to keep both it and stat-ups from getting Whirlwinded away, but Ninjask can probably beat you in the right hands anyway if you don't have Haze, Taunt, Roar or Whirlwind handy.

Metagross: Steel/Psychic. 135 Base Attack, 130 Base Defense, 80 Base HP, 70 Base Speed, 90 Base Special Defense. Doesn't need a Choice Band to wreak havoc with moves like Meteor Mash, ThunderPunch, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, Agility/Rock Polish, Explosion and Pursuit. Its "Clear Body" prevents its stats from being lowered.

Heatran: Steel/Fire. 130 Base Special Attack, 106 Base Defense and Special Defense, 77 Base Speed 90 Base Attack. Can utilize its "Flash Fire" ability to boost its Overheat, Fire Blast and Flamethrower and Magma Storm, and also boasts: Earth Power, Dragon Pulse, Metal Sound, Lava Plume and Explosion. A perfect candidate for either Choice Specs or Choice Scarf.

Celebi: Psychic/Grass. 100 Base in every stat, boasts Calm Mind, Swords Dance, Recover, Baton Pass, Psychic, Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, U-Turn, Heal Bell, Leech Seed, Perish Song and "Natural Cure".

Jirachi: Psychic/Steel. 100 Base in every stat, boasts Calm Mind, Psychic, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt, Wish, U-Turn, Reflect, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave and greatly benefits from "Serene Grace".

Dragonite: Dragon/Flying. 134 Base Attack, 100 Base Special Attack, 80 Base Speed. Separates itself from its threatening brothers Salamence and Garchomp thanks to the ability to use both Outrage and Dragon Dance. Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Ice Beam are among its impressive myriad attacking moves, and Dragonite also has Roost, Heal Bell, Thunder Wave and Safeguard as great support options.

Mamoswine: Ice/Ground. 130 Base Attack, 80 Base Speed, 70 Base Special Attack. Boasts one of the strongest STAB Earthquakes in the game, which, coupled with its STAB Ice Shard and Avalance, grant it great physical STAB coverage. Stone Edge, Ice Fang, Curse and Blizzard round out the main options of a monster that works very well with a Choice Band.

Gallade: Psychic/Fighting. 125 Attack, 115 Base Special Defense, 80 Base Speed. Its impressive, varied movepool includes Close Combat, Psycho Cut, Stone Edge, Night Slash, Ice Punch, Swords Dance, Hypnosis, Will-o-wisp, and Thunder Wave.

Yanmega: Bug/Flying. 116 Base Special Attack, 95 Base Speed, 86 Base HP and Defense. Has two very useful abilities in "Tinted Lens", which doubles the power of NVE (not very effective) hits, and "Speed Boost". Yanmega can use Air Slash, Bug Buzz, Hypnosis, Protect, and Choice Specs, Choice Scarf or Focus Sash very well.

Kingdra: Water/Dragon. 95 Base Attack, Defense, Special Attack and Special Defense, 85 Base Speed, 75 Base HP. Sports two fun abilities in "Swift Swim", which doubles its speed in the rain, and "Sniper", which grants its critical hits 3× power instead of 2×. Among the most effective moves for Kingdra are: Rain Dance, Surf, Waterfall, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Dragon Dance, and Yawn. It's worth noting that with Swift Swim, the single turn it takes to set up Rain Dance will not only double Kingdra's speed but boost both its physical and special Water-type moves one stage, which makes both Life Orb and Mystic Water look great on it.

Roserade: Grass/Poison. 125 Base Special Attack, 95 Base Speed, 105 Base Special Defense. Has Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Weather Ball, Leech Seed, Spikes (illegal with Sleep Powder), and Toxic Spikes. Further, the constant switching associated with using a rather handy Choice Scarf or Choice Speics makes "Natural Cure" a great ability on Roserade.

Scizor: Bug/Steel. 130 Base Attack, 100 Base Defense, 65 Base Speed. Makes great use of its new "Technician" ability, which grants a 1.5× boost to all attacks 60 Base Power or less, and can still benefit from "Swarm" which grants the same boost to Bug-type Attack when at 33% or less HP. Scizor's decent movepool includes, X-Scissor, U-Turn, Iron Head, Brick Break, Pursuit, Aerial Ace, Quick Attack, Swords Dance, Agility, Baton Pass, and Roost. It very much welcomes the benefits of Life Orb, Choice Band and Choice Scarf.

Yep use this threat list, it has most things on there.


Im not suggesting you counter everything, its practically impossible but at least counter most of this stuff, that is entirely possible.

At the moment this team cant take most of those threats, IT needs ALOT of help.




So what i suggest, it that you go through the above threat list and replace pokemon which can take most things and not rack up weaknesses together.

EDIT : - The definition of a counter is a pokemon that can switch into another pokemon and take little or no damage and have and be able to ohko the other pokemon, or at least cause a switch.

Sora_8920 March 25th, 2008 12:15 PM

85 Defense is average, and Isn't really enough to be on a stall team, it also has no stalling move of any sort, which is also what Anti is implying. 85 Defense is NOT decent. Tyranitar is an example of a bulky physical attacker. 110 Defense and 100 Special Defense IS decent.

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2007 (Post 3432330)
85 Defense is average, and Isn't really enough to be on a stall team, it also has no stalling move of any sort, which is also what Anti is implying. 85 Defense is NOT decent. Tyranitar is an example of a bulky physical attacker. 110 Defense and 100 Special Defense IS decent.

The underlined contradicts itself.


85 Defenses are decent, but in T-Tars case its defenses are above average.

Sora_8920 March 25th, 2008 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3432366)
The underlined contradicts itself.


85 Defenses are decent, but in T-Tars case its defenses are above average.

May I ask how they contradict themselves? That's hypocritical. Averange and decent are two DIFFERENT words. :/ It's defenses ARE great, 110 and 100 base defenses? Seriously.

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2007 (Post 3432378)
May I ask how they contradict themselves? That's hypocritical. Averange and decent are two DIFFERENT words. :/ It's defenses ARE great, 110 and 100 base defenses? Seriously.

You said initially, that its defenses are average and then went on to say its defenses are not decent, which implies they are bad.

85 base defence last time i checks is not "zomgsuxorz n shud nevar be used evar". its actually decent. Dugtrios defenses are phail however, there is a monumental difference here.

Above average actually means great or good.

You also said that it doesnt have a "stall move" so doesnt fit on a stall team, Richard Steel runs a stall team and he used a Metagross =/.

Sora_8920 March 25th, 2008 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3432426)
You said initially, that its defenses are average and then went on to say its defenses are not decent, which implies they are bad.

85 base defence last time i checks is not "zomgsuxorz n shud nevar be used evar". its actually decent. Dugtrios defenses ar phail however, there is a monumental difference here.

Above average actually means great or good.

You also said that it doesnt have a "stall move" so doesnt fit on a stall team, Richard Steel runs a stall team and he used a Metagross =/.

Meh. I'm just saying that should be the LAST thing on your mind with a stall team in play. But yeah, they are bad, which is what's I'm trying to say. Bear with me here.

Syaoran March 25th, 2008 12:54 PM

Frankly, this doesn't look like a stall team at all. Actually, other stall teams will stall the hell out of you. I support getting rid of Slowbro for Starmie, as it gives a better answer to some of the common threats, and you really need the speed. You can consider using a Scarf Starmie if you're that afraid of Weavile, but I wouldn't do this.

Dark Azelf March 25th, 2008 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2007 (Post 3432440)
Meh. I'm just saying that should be the LAST thing on your mind with a stall team in play. But yeah, they are bad, which is what's I'm trying to say. Bear with me here.

Im not trying to be an ass here, 85 base defense isnt bad, i dont know why everyone seems to be saying this, it can take more hits than people expect. Its by no means bad, and its not suckage, however i agree its not "Skarmory or Blissey" like. Thats my point, its "reasonably bulky" is maybe what i should have said and with recover starmie is a pain to take out, mine for example took a Dragon Danced Life Orb'd Fire Punch from a D-Nite AND then and DD'd Life Orb'd Earthquake from the same D-Nite. Heck i even survived a Pursuit from a CB Weavile, granted i didnt switch out as i predicted it, but if that doesnt say something, i dont know what will...

Dugtrios defenses are bad for example, but starmies, definitely not.


My main point is that its good on stall teams, its a Garchomp, Gyarados, Mixape counter, which stall teams have great problems with and it can spin, no other pokemon can counter those aforementioned threat and spin with the same moveset.


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