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-   -   Garchomp is broken ? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=131731)

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 1:14 PM

Garchomp is broken ?
 
Xcfrisco from Smogon Forums wrote:

Quote:

let me start by warning everyone that this thread is gonna be very tl;dr. So if you're not interested in READING EVERY SINGLE THING I SAY please don't even bother posting and stop right now and move to a different thread.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

P.S. I am more than aware that a similar topic got closed yesterday. I would like people to know that I got permission from multiple Smogon admins to post this thread :p



Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

Blargtastic808 March 29th, 2008 2:14 PM

SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

Sora_8920 March 29th, 2008 2:14 PM

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 2:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blargtastic808 (Post 3447468)
SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down to 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/ and SD Fire Fang 2hko's it.

Sora_8920 March 29th, 2008 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3447502)
Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

Anti March 29th, 2008 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447470)
If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 2:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3447519)
I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447515)
And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

Syaoran March 29th, 2008 2:59 PM

I think Garchomp is the best OU pokemon. Every stat in this pokemon was put in the right place, the typing is excellent, and the ability is just ridiculous. I feel that Garchomp should be a Uber. My rain dance team has a Garchomp, and he does excellent on it, even without his ability activating. Garchomp is just that good.

sims796 March 29th, 2008 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447470)
If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447515)
And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

I'd like to answer this. First off, Chain Chomp also has Swords Dance. Second, SD Chomp also uses Fire moves. It's stupid not too.

With that done, I can give my opinion.

It would sadden me for it to become uber, but not by much. Why? Well, it was never too much for me to handle. It's the whole reason I got Sceptile in the first place, and his Dragon Claw is the move to kill it with one hit.

However, I have always been lucky with DC. I can see how painful it is. It is too much to prepare for. Revenge killing is the best you can do, and that's if you're lucky. In Sandstorms, he is Godly. Unless that Seer Cold/Lock On strategy works all of a sudden. But it's the fact that we don't know which is which that is so harsh.

Sora_8920 March 29th, 2008 3:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3447624)
Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...



This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 3:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447876)
I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

sims796 March 29th, 2008 3:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447876)
I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

What? That doesn't make sense. First off, Skar can't switch in without losing a chunk. Second, because it 2HKO, he wouldn't NEED to switch. Meaning Skarmory is in no way a wall to Chomp, since it has a fire move to take it out.

Sora_8920 March 29th, 2008 3:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3447899)
I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi. Edit: And nobody keeps a skarm in on a Garchomp, either then to Roar it away.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 3:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447909)
Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi.

You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

Sora_8920 March 29th, 2008 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3447922)
You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

BeachBoy March 29th, 2008 4:04 PM

My thought with garchomp is that if it becomes uber, overcentralization with other beastly OUs will come in play and then we start debating that whole swirl. Aka if garchomp goes you can bet lucario will be next.

I love garchomp, it's a jet, a shark, a dragon, a pirate, and a friggin beast all in one. What's not to love. Excellent everything... well except special attack =P

It looks like garchomp could become uber, it's incredible. But if we lose the beast, i think we are starting an even bigger problem with over-centralization.... That's what we're trying to avoid, yes?

Lucario and others will step into the light even more with garchomps presence no longer a force to be reckon'd with.
If garchomp leaves many walls use get better, weavile may even take a hit as it doesnt have to revenge kill it anymore.

So what about that?

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447935)
But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

Fire Fang also has a flinch rate.


And if it Roars, so be it, SD on the switch in again and fire fang it again, it will soon die, especially once its taken residual damage from the rest of your team.

And sooner or later, its


A] Going to roar out your sp.sweeper, so it cant heal and has to switch, so next time it comes into chomp, it dies
B] It Flinches
C] Roar misses, due to Sandstorm being common
D] You get a crit
E] It completely forgoes Fire Fang and uses Fire Blast on its set instead once as you switch in and then again, which required no SD, and beats skarm to a pulp.





@Beachboy, your forgetting Lucario has a counter Weezing and Gliscor, Garchomp doesnt, no sure fire 100% one anyways

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3447935)
But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3448019)
I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Big mistake by gamefreak IMO, if your putting this monster in the game =p, tbh, it needs a sure fire counter, Water/Steel type with levitate should do it lol

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:20 PM

More like an oversight, as if they don't take the time to see the long term damage.

BeachBoy March 29th, 2008 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3448019)
Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Im not talking about the counters, unpredictability mainly with lucario.. anyways off of luke...

How can the walls not get better? If this beast isnt shreding some of them apart there use could become greater...

Yeah I guess weavile will stay the same. But if garchomp leaves, how can some pokemon not get better with it's departure?
I guess Im completely wrong in this, oh well. XDDD

So yeah it was just a thought...

I believe the beast will be put into uber, I really wish it wouldn't but alas, it looks broken. bye bye pirate shark. I'll still love the game either way...

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:32 PM

Hey, I like Chomp too, but he really breaks the metagame. It's more noticable now because Sandstorm teams were more of a gimmick until recently.

Second, these walls are more useless with Chomp. They won't get better, just more useful.

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachBoy (Post 3448070)
Im not talking about the counters, unpredictability mainly with lucario.. anyways off of luke...

How can the walls not get better? If this beast isnt shreding some of them apart there use could become greater...

Yeah I guess weavile will stay the same. But if garchomp leaves, how can some pokemon not get better with it's departure?
I guess Im completely wrong in this, oh well. XDDD

So yeah it was just a thought...

I believe the beast will be put into uber, I really wish it wouldn't but alas, it looks broken. bye bye pirate shark. I'll still love the game either way...

Nah, its good that your voicing your opinion dude lol


Anyways, its not official thats its going to be moved up to uber, it looks like its possible with the recent abuse of it.


Anyone battled a Sub/SD Brightpowder Garchomp in Sandstorm ?, its the most broken piece of crap ive ever met, you miss just about every turn, which = a free sub and SD which = Kthnxbai team =/

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:35 PM

Isn't Bright Powder Mothe frackin hax, anyway?

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3448093)
Isn't Bright Powder Mothe frackin hax, anyway?

yep, but some battlers on shoddy use it, its not banned there or anything.

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:43 PM

I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3448113)
I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

Time for my Double Team/ Sub-seeding /Spore Breloom with no sleep caluse =)



Honestly, -28% accuracy to every move in sandstorm and with Brightpowder is ridiculous.


What i find is more ridiculous is that its bulkier than swampert =/ AND it takes 269 sp.att or STAB to guarantee a ohko on a 16 hp/0 sp.def Chomp with an Ice Beam. Oh dear...

I know you think well thats not alot,but most bulky starmie dont even run that much sp.att..

Anti March 29th, 2008 5:02 PM

Bulkier than Swampert...ouch...I use Swampert ._.

Also, about skarmory, even if it could survive fire Fangs easily, what is Brave bird going to do to something with more physical bulk than Swampert?

sims796 March 29th, 2008 5:02 PM

So I must rebreed my Raichu to have HP ICE. And I KNOW that's not enough.

Guess it's time for me to bring out my Choice Scarf Wigglytuff...

Ársa March 29th, 2008 5:13 PM

It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3448219)
It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

I wish we could link to other forums, then i could find that thread. I havent actually viewed it in a while, whats the current situation of it being considered in ubers on Smogon ?


Thing is there's is no 100% sure fire way to counter it, sad, but true.

Ársa March 29th, 2008 5:22 PM

I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

sims796 March 29th, 2008 5:27 PM

If you can, Dark, put it in your sig for the time being.

Lil MuDkiP849 March 29th, 2008 9:39 PM

I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 3:08 AM

I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @[email protected]

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

Ársa March 30th, 2008 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunsparce (Post 3449514)
I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @[email protected]

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

boo836 March 30th, 2008 3:38 AM

Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 3:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449531)
Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

This is how I usually run my Weavile

[email protected] Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

Sora_8920 March 30th, 2008 3:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3449539)
Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

Ársa March 30th, 2008 3:50 AM

Yeah, but it cannot OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp is faster and Recover will only work second, you would be on the back foot the whole time. Ice Beam with only 72% Accuracy is lucky to hit 2 times, so unless the Garchomp user is stupid, you shouldn't be able to beat him.

~T_S

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunsparce (Post 3449541)
This is how I usually run my Weavile

[email protected] Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

Well for starters, no need for that much speed when you scarf something with Base 130 speed. (If you would actually do that at all... >_<)

"Freeze-Kill" vs 16HP/min Garchomp = 119.94% - 141.27%

But you need to see something. For starters, this is a non-existant move. Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf. Lastly, if you look at both Swift, Shock Wave, Aura Sphere etc, they are all Special Typed attacks. This means that more than likely the attack will be Special. This makes the damage:

41.83% - 49.31% from your Weavile set.

~T_S

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 4:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449549)
Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf.

I didn't come up with that 'Scarf Weavile. I got it from This Smogon Forums Thread

Thebiggamer March 30th, 2008 4:21 AM

I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 5:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3448250)
I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

Thanks dude ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil MuDkiP849 (Post 3448931)
I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

Yep, SS teams are nasty. Garchmps movepool is just stupid, Fire, Dragon and Ground hit everything in the game for at least neutral, has Outrage and SD, hence the ability to beat all of its "Counters", i think id be better calling its counters "switch ins" thats all they are, there is no counter for it......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449531)
Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

Problem being, even if weavile gets a Ice Punch/Shard in, there is always the possiblity of it missing due to sand veil and/or Bright Powder, or even Yache berry, once you way to deal with the dude is gone your pretty much screwed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3449539)
Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Name one poke who can use those moves effectively ? lol. Also if everyone HAD to use those moves, its Over centralization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3449544)
Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

Eww, Gastrodon is no counter

252 Neutral Choice Band Garchomp Outrage...

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 271 - 319
Damage: 65.14% - 76.68%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon



Neutral SD EQ from 252 ATT Neutral [email protected] Orb

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 391 - 460
Damage: 93.99% - 110.58%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon.


Draco Meteor from a 252 SP.ATT neutral Garchomp

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 233 - 274
Damage: 56.01% - 65.87%

On a 212 hp / 0 sp.def gastrodon


And Gastrodon is no where near ohkoing Chomp anytime soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thebiggamer (Post 3449586)
I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

Has your Hippowdon got a Choice Band by an chance. ? Thats the only time that will ever OHkO a Garchomp with Ice Fang...










Also guys, the links are in my sig if you want to take a look ;)

Azonic March 30th, 2008 5:45 AM

I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clade. (Post 3449736)
I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

Quote:

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.
So yep pretty much that ^^^

dialga493 March 30th, 2008 6:34 AM

I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.

Azonic March 30th, 2008 6:35 AM

Quote:

So yep pretty much that ^^^
Heh, I totally read that ... about a second ago. <<;
Still, Garchomp fails at uberism compared to the other gods of uberism. So I have made my point )<

Garchomp, has like no counters. ._. Especially while holding the Yache Berry from Weavile's Ice Shard. Gyarados, sort of does but ... Dayum Stone Edge. So yeah, uberify it. Its too bulky and powerful offensively and defensively for OU.


Quote:

I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.
A little obvious... don'tcha think? It needs EVS <<;

RenzokukenofCerberus March 30th, 2008 7:11 AM

Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

Azonic March 30th, 2008 7:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenzokukenofCerberus (Post 3449955)
Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

That applies for any pokemon, though. And the only likely move to miss is Fire Blast (without hax <<;)

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 7:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenzokukenofCerberus (Post 3449955)
Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

Thing is (If you read the first post with the damage calcs),disregarding sand veil, Swampert looses to SD Chomp it 2hko's Swampert and Swamperts Ice Beam doesnt OHKO Chomp. Also a Choice Band Outrage 2hkos swampy...

boo836 March 30th, 2008 7:25 AM

It just hit me. Cradily! Gastro acid + hp ice= Hurt chomp!

All I need is to run calculations.

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 7:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3449980)
It just hit me. Cradily! Gastro acid + hp ice= Hurt chomp!

All I need is to run calculations.

Its not just its ability, im pretty sure a Choice Band Outrage would likely 2hko, same with the Sword Dance variant, and factoring Cradilys mediocre offense, i doubt HP ice would OHKO...


Also, must everyone use Gastro Acid on their team,Just for Garchomp a stupid move which has no other use apart from that ? Over Centralization, again...

Sora_8920 March 30th, 2008 7:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3449990)
Its not just its ability, im pretty sure a Choice Band Outrage would likely 2hko, same with the Sword Dance variant, and factoring Cradilys mediocre offense, i doubt HP ice would OHKO...


Also, must everyone use Gastro Acid on their team,Just for Garchomp a stupid move which has no other use apart from that ? Over Centralization, again...

Just what I was going to say. Actually, everything except Garchomp 2Hko'ing Cradily I agree with. Too lazy to run the calcs, you must have, though. :/

Like said many times, listing counters is pretty useless. Just look at me. :/ It's impossible to predict what variant it is at first. And nothing is a sure switch-in on it. Imagine if it had Nasty Plot. Lol. But nobody runs special for that reason, no Nasty Plot, and a bad special movepool. But yeah, nothing is a sure switch-in on either Sd Chomp, or Chain Chomp.

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 7:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3450012)
Just what I was going to say. Actually, everything except Garchomp 2Hko'ing Cradily I agree with. Too lazy to run the calcs, you must have, though. :/

Like said many times, listing counters is pretty useless. Just look at me. :/ It's impossible to predict what variant it is at first. And nothing is a sure switch-in on it. Imagine if it had Nasty Plot. Lol. But nobody runs special for that reason, no Nasty Plot, and a bad special movepool. But yeah, nothing is a sure switch-in on either Sd Chomp, or Chain Chomp.

It does infact 2hko Cradily. Nearly ohko lol

252 ATT, Neutral Garchomps, Life Orb'd Earthquake After a Swords Dance

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 372 - 438
Damage: 98.94% - 116.49%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. Pwned



Choice Band Outrage from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 258 - 303
Damage: 68.62% - 80.59%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. still pwned




Choice Band Earthquake from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 215 - 253
Damage: 57.18% - 67.29%


On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily.again pwned

Sora_8920 March 30th, 2008 7:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3450048)
It does infact 2hko Cradily. Nearly ohko lol

252 ATT, Neutral Garchomps, Life Orb'd Earthquake

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 372 - 438
Damage: 98.94% - 116.49%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. Pwned



Choice Band Outrage from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 258 - 303
Damage: 68.62% - 80.59%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. still pwned




Choice Band Earthquake from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 215 - 253
Damage: 57.18% - 67.29%


On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily.again pwned

I didn't say it didn't. I didn't agree with you because I didn't know if it would or not.

Cloud_85 March 30th, 2008 7:58 AM

Another of the Bigs problems with Chomp is that you only know his moveset when it's too late, you may swich to Weavile thinking its a SD, but he maybe scarf or Band Chomp... His ability it's from another world, and his movepool it's just amazing. Really it deserve to be banned, I love it when I used on my first team, but when I tried deal with him on a stall team he was a big deal...

shedinjask March 30th, 2008 11:50 AM

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
76 Attk/252 Spd/180 SDef -- Adamant
Swords Dance
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Fire Fang
Earthquake

Swords Dance, take the hit for Salac, kill 'counter', sweep. Uber.

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3450667)
Garchomp @ Salac Berry
76 Attk/252 Spd/180 SDef -- Adamant
Swords Dance
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Fire Fang
Earthquake

Swords Dance, take the hit for Salac, kill 'counter', sweep. Uber.

I think ive heard about that set, or one similar it survives ice beam doesnt it ? lol

Syaoran March 30th, 2008 12:27 PM

Yeah, the thread about it on smogon is popular now. I wouldn't use that set, because I rather have him strong enough from the start, and I intend on him taking hits anyway by switching in, so there's no point for me to use it I guess.

zenrot April 1st, 2008 7:40 AM

There will ALWAYS be someone who sets a curve. So Garchomp is powerful, there are always going to be powerful pokemon. There is no reason to make him uber.

Dark Azelf April 1st, 2008 7:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenrot (Post 3456448)
There will ALWAYS be someone who sets a curve. So Garchomp is powerful, there are always going to be powerful pokemon. There is no reason to make him uber.


Thing is if you read ALL of the first post it explains why.

Its not just because he is "powerful", its because it literally has no counters, a stupid ability and is bulkier than swampert and it takes a ridiculous amount of att or sp.att to ohko it.

zenrot April 1st, 2008 8:47 AM

well yeah thats true. But if he is so good then use him for yourself or just be prepared. It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat. In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

Dark Azelf April 1st, 2008 8:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenrot (Post 3456602)
well yeah thats true. But if he is so good then use him for yourself or just be prepared. It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat. In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

Please read the whole first post, this applies to everyone, i made that specific on the first post in big bold blue letters


Quote:

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.
Yeah

airconditioning April 1st, 2008 9:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenrot (Post 3456602)
use him for yourself

So, I'm forced to use Garchomp or lose? Sounds broken to me.

or just be prepared

That would work- if it you could prepare for him. He has so many wildly different sets, that it's impossible to predict what he'll do until he gets off a Swords Dance or kills off your fastest sweeper.

It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat.

True, but he's damn near.

In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

What DA said. Besides, Skarmory and Blissey are easy to take out.

Comments in bold, etc. etc.

FourFourTwo April 1st, 2008 9:19 AM

I've never really had a problem with Chomp. Then again, I run a Hail team, so it's easy to counter.

But I can see why its broken. Almost EVERYONE I've gone up against used some form of chomp, but it cant stand a 100% accuracy blizzard from a max HP/def walrein. :)

I think it should stay in OU, honestly, you just need a bit of strategy to take it down. In my opinion, softboiled/aroma/ST bliss is much more annoying.

shedinjask April 1st, 2008 12:45 PM

Bliss may be more annoying but it has tons of counters.

Sora_8920 April 1st, 2008 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shedinjask (Post 3457316)
Bliss may be more annoying but it has tons of counters.

Quoted for truth.

Read that thread from PE2K.

ABYAY April 1st, 2008 1:03 PM

Garchomp is one of the few pokemon that sends a spike of fear down my spine. It's basically counterless. Also, that Sand Veil ruined my only chance to take down a Life Orb Chomp back in the past. I was up 4-1. My ape's CC missed, got quaked. My Bliss got crit and killed in one hit, and I needed to pull Aromatherapy to wake up Milo. I had Sleep Talk as backup, but obviously, I had to get Rest. Forry did get a nice hit with Gyro Ball, but that's about it. If the crit wouldn't have happened, It would've been at least a draw.

It speaks for itself; various sets make people question constantly. The only decently effective way in finding out what item it has is to use Frisk, but no OU pokemon uses Frisk. From the looks, the new main pokemon to use against Garchomp is Mamoswine due to its average defense and impressive HP and attack. That Ice Shard is a nice tool with the attack and Choice Band. i guess this is why I'm hearing more about Mamoswine these days? In the past, they were nearly obsolete from what I saw and heard.

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 1:47 PM

Yeah You may say that every Garchomps set have a counter, but his movepool it's SO amazing that when you know if he is Scarfed or Banded or SD or Chain it's really late... there is no safe swich, and he can always carry a Yache berry, with that only a CB Weavile doing Ice Punch with Adamant and 252 EV ATK (If both have 31 IV on Atak/Def) you can ohko him, that's the reason cause I don't use Jolly... Really weavile it's too fast for Jolly IMO. But Weavile isn't a safe switch against a Garchomp...

Sora_8920 April 1st, 2008 2:01 PM

Would it be safe to say that CB Mamoswine can counter Garchomp with Ice Shard w/o Yache Berry? LO is better for the SD Set, anyways. According to Anti-Pop, it gets strong really fast.

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 2:14 PM

Manoswine could be a kind of safe change, but that will cause overcentralization. That way anybody will have a Manoswine. And he will fear the Chain Chomp, Dunno if him ohko with Blast (I don't think so) and for ohko a Garchomp the Manoswine will need Adamant and several Ev on attack, and that won't be good for Mano against other sweepers...

Sora_8920 April 1st, 2008 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud_85 (Post 3457620)
Manoswine could be a kind of safe change, but that will cause overcentralization. That way anybody will have a Manoswine. And he will fear the Chain Chomp, Dunno if him ohko with Blast (I don't think so) and for ohko a Garchomp the Manoswine will need Adamant and several Ev on attack, and that won't be good for Mano against other sweepers...

Why does everybody say this? We're NOT saying you SHOULD use one, just that's It's helpful. ;)

But otherwise, I'll just have to agree with the rest.

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3457626)
Why does everybody say this? We're NOT saying you SHOULD use one, just that's It's helpful. ;)

But otherwise, I'll just have to agree with the rest.


XD, Well I'm not was trying to say that, but having only Mano as a REAL counter of almost all Chomp Versions (Note that Weavile can handle all except Scarf, if he don't have Ice Shard...) it's a reason for ban Chomp, right?

Syaoran April 1st, 2008 2:30 PM

How exactly is Mamoswine a counter? You can't switch him in on a CB Outrage without him dying. If you intend on using a 252 HP/DEF Mamoswine, you're not going to 1HKO Garchomp anytime soon. Hell, the only way an adamant 252 ATK Mamo will 1HKO Chomp is with Life Orb or Choice Band. Sure you can revenge kill, but that means you have to lose something first.

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 2:36 PM

If Manoswine is CB he can use Ice Shard, that will ohko Garchomp without a Yache Berry, and I don't think that a CB Chomp can Ohko a Mano with Outrage, but I don't make any calculations. In that situation you can always revenge kill a Outrage from Chomp.

Anti April 1st, 2008 2:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud_85 (Post 3457690)
If Manoswine is CB he can use Ice Shard, that will ohko Garchomp without a Yache Berry, and I don't think that a CB Chomp can Ohko a Mano with Outrage, but I don't make any calculations. In that situation you can always revenge kill a Outrage from Chomp.

If it is easily 2HKOing our strongest bulky waters, a Mamoswine without good EVs in Defense will die easily. If you have to revenge kill, you'll have lost a pokemon just so Garchomp can switch out (since ICe Shard on Mamoswine is more predictable than a grammar error in Geore Bush's speech).

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 2:47 PM

Right, anyways he is a safe switch, really predictable but safe.

Anti April 1st, 2008 4:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud_85 (Post 3457728)
Right, anyways he is a safe switch, really predictable but safe.

How is it a safe switch if Mamo is OHKOed? >.>

Gengarchomp April 1st, 2008 4:12 PM

Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.

Arcknight316 April 1st, 2008 4:48 PM

Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^

EDIT: And the Mods are unmodded, too! 0_o

Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense.

P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P

Anti April 1st, 2008 5:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gengarchomp (Post 3458067)
Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.

2HKOed by CB Outrage. LO Dragon Claws are no pal either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nightfall* (Post 3458204)
Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^

Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense.

P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P

No, it is your logic that makes no sense because you're only taking one part from his argument. That's essentially saying that he's saying everything with Sand Veil is uber. Think of that, except now the fighters have to invest a lot of EVs to OHKO blissey to counter it. THEN give Blissey a movepool that would allow it to defeat every single one of its counters. NOW imagine countering blissey. that's what it's like to counter Garchomp.

There are pokemon that are 100% surefire counters for Blissey, where even if their attacks had 80% accuracy they would still easily laugh at blissey. Garchomp has nothing even CLOSE to that.

Honestly, I don't know why people keep bringing Blissey into the discussion, it doesn't have much relevance to this as far as its dominance over OUs is concerned (which neither post I quoted mentioned but other people have).

Xairmo April 1st, 2008 5:13 PM

What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

Anti April 1st, 2008 5:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3458279)
What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

That's usually how I deal with the choice variants, but you'll be blowing up your physical wall (and using forry just to counter Garchomp defines overcentralization). Swampert taking 60% damage from an Outrage means it is about useless too, so you'd lose two pokemon to deal with Garchomp, and it might even be able to switch out. if Outrage is two turns.

The annoying thing with Garchomp is that the steels that only fear one of two moves from it can't really hurt it much besides blowing up. If that's the best way to counter Garchomp...

I'm about 60/40 right now, 60 being with the uber party. There just...aren't solid counters like other pokemon have. That and the lack of valid argument against it being uber, while the party of for it being uber has a good argument.

Xairmo April 1st, 2008 5:26 PM

What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

shedinjask April 1st, 2008 5:29 PM

Bliss can't switch in, Metagross does not like EQ. Not a counter.

sims796 April 1st, 2008 5:29 PM

But you see, this is the thing, the reason why you are at an impass, the reason why there is even a debate in the first place. As far as theorymon goes, we've all taken down our far share of Chomp. So it is hard to honestly say that it goes into uber without serious consideration.

However, these therories are all pretty true. I predict that in the near future, it will be a beast of unimaginable power. I am for it uber, but I will miss my Chomp "counter". But thefact that it has no counter, the fact that it overcentralizes the game is what makes it so hard to keep.

And it doesn't overcentralize like Blissey. Having a counter is one thing, as all teams must be prepared for Bliss. However, Chomp has no reliable counters, and in order to have a glimpse of beating him, we must use such a few selection of "counters" it's not even funny.


EDIT:Xarmio, listen to yourself. How good is a counter Blissey? It's awful. But for it to be used on just this one poke, wasting a perfectly good Blissey on one poke with a set that is fail otherwise, is the very definition of overcentralization. You are further proving the reasons why he should be uber.

Xairmo April 1st, 2008 5:30 PM

Metagross could hold Shuca Berry to weaken the EQ. Blissey would switch in after a poke is KOed and then use counter

EDIT: Okay well my Blissey's ice beam has OHKOed Garchomp. I personally have never had that big a deal with Garchomp. Sure its one of the better pokemon you'll see but it doesnt seem to be of "Uber" status IMO. Its not unstoppable in any way.

sims796 April 1st, 2008 5:35 PM

Look at my edit. Meta sucks with Shucca. Blissey can't beat anything else with Counter. But for it to be used on just this one pokemon, is the definition of overcentralization. Along with that flawed strategy, it would be a waste of a Bliss, since it cannot work anywhere else in the game.

Gengarchomp April 1st, 2008 5:35 PM

What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

sims796 April 1st, 2008 5:37 PM

Then everything else would be weakened. To a serious degree.

Anti April 1st, 2008 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gengarchomp (Post 3458372)
What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

The would be pseudo-banning it. You'd basically be nerfing it (not to mention a whole lot of other sweepers) to the point where this would become GSC again and sweepers would lose enough power that an epic stall war would begin.

Also Xairmo, I'm pretty sure it takes a TON of SAtk EVs to OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam. Even then, switching in on it simply will not be happening.

EDIT: By epic stall war I mean sweepers wouldn't be able to sweep, and his would turn into GSC (or possibly Advance) with more pokemon. Banning strategic items like CB and Specs really won't help.

Xairmo April 1st, 2008 5:51 PM

Quote:

Uber

This section is for Pokemon with insanly high stats that can't normally be defeated by a normal Tier Pokemon or they have a combination of huge movepools and gigantic overall stats.
Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

sims796 April 1st, 2008 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3458423)
Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

No. How a pokemon performs in the uber tier is not the only regard whether or not it belongs there. If a pokemon is deemed too broken for OU, up to uber it goes. Wobbuffet is a perfect example. He sucks in uber, but is too broken for OU.

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 6:36 PM

I agree that Chomp should be banned, but if him is to weak to Uber (There are really good walls there) and to broken to OU, we're just saying that he will be useless. Maybe people will play with him on Uber, but he won't like Lugia after one reflect or Deoxys-A kill him with Ice beam, or Kyogre doing Ice Beam... He will be excelent with Groudon but....

Leevis96 April 1st, 2008 6:59 PM

Counter Bliss always takes down a non brick break Garchomp easy

Cloud_85 April 1st, 2008 8:01 PM

Actually he get OHKO by a CB Outrage... I guess he will die even with an EQ (I guess), so really sucks...

Hadim Sinan Pasha April 2nd, 2008 2:17 AM

well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

Dark Azelf April 2nd, 2008 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame Healer (Post 3459253)
well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

lolluxraylol

This is just a thought, a hunch maybe, but you didnt read any of the frst post did you ?



Quote:

anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber
So what relevance does this have, it doesnt have to be "good" to be in Ubers or even as good as other ubers, but if it is too broken for the ou metagame, it will be banned.

Salamence is easy to counter, physical is loled at by Hippowdon, Donphan, Bronzong, Slowbro, frkiin anything, Specsmence gets loled at by cressy Blissey etc, Calm Max sp.def milotics etc, Mix mence with BB/DM/FB/Filler Cressy, sp.defensive Zapdos etc.

Difference here, is that none of the above pokemon, infact nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into a CB Garchomp, or any garchomp set really. The counters for mence were from the top of my head, i can name umteennmillion more, however, I CANNOT do the same for chomp, it has no counter.

I may consider using a CB Chomp on Wifi in the next couple of weeks to test it, that or try out my Bright Powder Garchomp as apart of a sandstorm team, then tell me which is more broken Mence or Chomp =)


Quote:

i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last
Im not even gonna say anything....... Apart from maybe........... sigged ?

Any ice type stupid enough to switch into chomp dies (also its guaranteed not to last long anyways, Stealth Rock says hi), apart from them not even being common pokemon. Ice MOVES are however common, still chomp outspeeds most with a Scarf on it, Also have you ever heard of the item "Yache Berry"....



Im not trying to be an ass here, this applies to everyone : - if you post without reading, your going to make yourself look a fool, apart from it being incredibly annoying and ignorant. I read all of your threads before posting, so can i just ask for the same respect, thanks. Ive even wrote it in huge Blue size 5 letters on the front page and still no one sees it apparently,so ima go and make it size 8.

Ársa April 2nd, 2008 4:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3458330)
What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

[email protected] Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S

Dark Azelf April 2nd, 2008 6:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3459528)
But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

[email protected] Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S



Thanks T_S, ;), Ice Shard revenge killing is actually harder than it sounds, firstly you have to get the poke in there w/Ice Shard, via sacrificing something on your team so you get a free switch in and hope to god its still locked into Outrage or its gonna switch out and come back later and then your gonna have to make another sacrifice.


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