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Garchomp is broken ?
Xcfrisco from Smogon Forums wrote:
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Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period. |
SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.
I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not. I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot? |
If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.
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Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ? EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/ and SD Fire Fang 2hko's it. |
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That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;) Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago. Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it. |
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Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm. |
I think Garchomp is the best OU pokemon. Every stat in this pokemon was put in the right place, the typing is excellent, and the ability is just ridiculous. I feel that Garchomp should be a Uber. My rain dance team has a Garchomp, and he does excellent on it, even without his ability activating. Garchomp is just that good.
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With that done, I can give my opinion. It would sadden me for it to become uber, but not by much. Why? Well, it was never too much for me to handle. It's the whole reason I got Sceptile in the first place, and his Dragon Claw is the move to kill it with one hit. However, I have always been lucky with DC. I can see how painful it is. It is too much to prepare for. Revenge killing is the best you can do, and that's if you're lucky. In Sandstorms, he is Godly. Unless that Seer Cold/Lock On strategy works all of a sudden. But it's the fact that we don't know which is which that is so harsh. |
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252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb Defender HP: 334 Damage: 213 - 250 Damage: 63.77% - 74.85% On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory After a swords dance Thats why. |
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My thought with garchomp is that if it becomes uber, overcentralization with other beastly OUs will come in play and then we start debating that whole swirl. Aka if garchomp goes you can bet lucario will be next.
I love garchomp, it's a jet, a shark, a dragon, a pirate, and a friggin beast all in one. What's not to love. Excellent everything... well except special attack =P It looks like garchomp could become uber, it's incredible. But if we lose the beast, i think we are starting an even bigger problem with over-centralization.... That's what we're trying to avoid, yes? Lucario and others will step into the light even more with garchomps presence no longer a force to be reckon'd with. If garchomp leaves many walls use get better, weavile may even take a hit as it doesnt have to revenge kill it anymore. So what about that? |
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And if it Roars, so be it, SD on the switch in again and fire fang it again, it will soon die, especially once its taken residual damage from the rest of your team. And sooner or later, its A] Going to roar out your sp.sweeper, so it cant heal and has to switch, so next time it comes into chomp, it dies B] It Flinches C] Roar misses, due to Sandstorm being common D] You get a crit E] It completely forgoes Fire Fang and uses Fire Blast on its set instead once as you switch in and then again, which required no SD, and beats skarm to a pulp. @Beachboy, your forgetting Lucario has a counter Weezing and Gliscor, Garchomp doesnt, no sure fire 100% one anyways |
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Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer. |
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More like an oversight, as if they don't take the time to see the long term damage.
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How can the walls not get better? If this beast isnt shreding some of them apart there use could become greater... Yeah I guess weavile will stay the same. But if garchomp leaves, how can some pokemon not get better with it's departure? I guess Im completely wrong in this, oh well. XDDD So yeah it was just a thought... I believe the beast will be put into uber, I really wish it wouldn't but alas, it looks broken. bye bye pirate shark. I'll still love the game either way... |
Hey, I like Chomp too, but he really breaks the metagame. It's more noticable now because Sandstorm teams were more of a gimmick until recently.
Second, these walls are more useless with Chomp. They won't get better, just more useful. |
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Anyways, its not official thats its going to be moved up to uber, it looks like its possible with the recent abuse of it. Anyone battled a Sub/SD Brightpowder Garchomp in Sandstorm ?, its the most broken piece of crap ive ever met, you miss just about every turn, which = a free sub and SD which = Kthnxbai team =/ |
Isn't Bright Powder Mothe frackin hax, anyway?
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I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...
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Honestly, -28% accuracy to every move in sandstorm and with Brightpowder is ridiculous. What i find is more ridiculous is that its bulkier than swampert =/ AND it takes 269 sp.att or STAB to guarantee a ohko on a 16 hp/0 sp.def Chomp with an Ice Beam. Oh dear... I know you think well thats not alot,but most bulky starmie dont even run that much sp.att.. |
Bulkier than Swampert...ouch...I use Swampert ._.
Also, about skarmory, even if it could survive fire Fangs easily, what is Brave bird going to do to something with more physical bulk than Swampert? |
So I must rebreed my Raichu to have HP ICE. And I KNOW that's not enough.
Guess it's time for me to bring out my Choice Scarf Wigglytuff... |
It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.
~T_S |
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Thing is there's is no 100% sure fire way to counter it, sad, but true. |
I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...
~T_S |
If you can, Dark, put it in your sig for the time being.
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I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)
And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days |
I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.
Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @[email protected] Could anyone run the calulations on this? Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name) Power: 60 ACC: --- PP: 15 Never misses. On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one. |
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~T_S |
Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?
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[email protected] Scarf Adamant 6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD Ice Punch Night Slash Brick Break Pursuit Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch? |
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Yeah, but it cannot OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp is faster and Recover will only work second, you would be on the back foot the whole time. Ice Beam with only 72% Accuracy is lucky to hit 2 times, so unless the Garchomp user is stupid, you shouldn't be able to beat him.
~T_S Quote:
"Freeze-Kill" vs 16HP/min Garchomp = 119.94% - 141.27% But you need to see something. For starters, this is a non-existant move. Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf. Lastly, if you look at both Swift, Shock Wave, Aura Sphere etc, they are all Special Typed attacks. This means that more than likely the attack will be Special. This makes the damage: 41.83% - 49.31% from your Weavile set. ~T_S |
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I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang
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252 Neutral Choice Band Garchomp Outrage... Defender HP: 416 Damage: 271 - 319 Damage: 65.14% - 76.68% On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon Neutral SD EQ from 252 ATT Neutral [email protected] Orb Defender HP: 416 Damage: 391 - 460 Damage: 93.99% - 110.58% On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon. Draco Meteor from a 252 SP.ATT neutral Garchomp Defender HP: 416 Damage: 233 - 274 Damage: 56.01% - 65.87% On a 212 hp / 0 sp.def gastrodon And Gastrodon is no where near ohkoing Chomp anytime soon. Quote:
Also guys, the links are in my sig if you want to take a look ;) |
I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.
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I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.
You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that. |
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Still, Garchomp fails at uberism compared to the other gods of uberism. So I have made my point )< Garchomp, has like no counters. ._. Especially while holding the Yache Berry from Weavile's Ice Shard. Gyarados, sort of does but ... Dayum Stone Edge. So yeah, uberify it. Its too bulky and powerful offensively and defensively for OU. Quote:
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Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.
Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too. |
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It just hit me. Cradily! Gastro acid + hp ice= Hurt chomp!
All I need is to run calculations. |
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Also, must everyone use Gastro Acid on their team,Just for Garchomp a stupid move which has no other use apart from that ? Over Centralization, again... |
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Like said many times, listing counters is pretty useless. Just look at me. :/ It's impossible to predict what variant it is at first. And nothing is a sure switch-in on it. Imagine if it had Nasty Plot. Lol. But nobody runs special for that reason, no Nasty Plot, and a bad special movepool. But yeah, nothing is a sure switch-in on either Sd Chomp, or Chain Chomp. |
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252 ATT, Neutral Garchomps, Life Orb'd Earthquake After a Swords Dance Defender HP: 376 Damage: 372 - 438 Damage: 98.94% - 116.49% On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. Pwned Choice Band Outrage from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp Defender HP: 376 Damage: 258 - 303 Damage: 68.62% - 80.59% On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. still pwned Choice Band Earthquake from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp Defender HP: 376 Damage: 215 - 253 Damage: 57.18% - 67.29% On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily.again pwned |
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Another of the Bigs problems with Chomp is that you only know his moveset when it's too late, you may swich to Weavile thinking its a SD, but he maybe scarf or Band Chomp... His ability it's from another world, and his movepool it's just amazing. Really it deserve to be banned, I love it when I used on my first team, but when I tried deal with him on a stall team he was a big deal...
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Garchomp @ Salac Berry
76 Attk/252 Spd/180 SDef -- Adamant Swords Dance Outrage/Dragon Claw Fire Fang Earthquake Swords Dance, take the hit for Salac, kill 'counter', sweep. Uber. |
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Yeah, the thread about it on smogon is popular now. I wouldn't use that set, because I rather have him strong enough from the start, and I intend on him taking hits anyway by switching in, so there's no point for me to use it I guess.
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There will ALWAYS be someone who sets a curve. So Garchomp is powerful, there are always going to be powerful pokemon. There is no reason to make him uber.
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Thing is if you read ALL of the first post it explains why. Its not just because he is "powerful", its because it literally has no counters, a stupid ability and is bulkier than swampert and it takes a ridiculous amount of att or sp.att to ohko it. |
well yeah thats true. But if he is so good then use him for yourself or just be prepared. It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat. In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.
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I've never really had a problem with Chomp. Then again, I run a Hail team, so it's easy to counter.
But I can see why its broken. Almost EVERYONE I've gone up against used some form of chomp, but it cant stand a 100% accuracy blizzard from a max HP/def walrein. :) I think it should stay in OU, honestly, you just need a bit of strategy to take it down. In my opinion, softboiled/aroma/ST bliss is much more annoying. |
Bliss may be more annoying but it has tons of counters.
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Read that thread from PE2K. |
Garchomp is one of the few pokemon that sends a spike of fear down my spine. It's basically counterless. Also, that Sand Veil ruined my only chance to take down a Life Orb Chomp back in the past. I was up 4-1. My ape's CC missed, got quaked. My Bliss got crit and killed in one hit, and I needed to pull Aromatherapy to wake up Milo. I had Sleep Talk as backup, but obviously, I had to get Rest. Forry did get a nice hit with Gyro Ball, but that's about it. If the crit wouldn't have happened, It would've been at least a draw.
It speaks for itself; various sets make people question constantly. The only decently effective way in finding out what item it has is to use Frisk, but no OU pokemon uses Frisk. From the looks, the new main pokemon to use against Garchomp is Mamoswine due to its average defense and impressive HP and attack. That Ice Shard is a nice tool with the attack and Choice Band. i guess this is why I'm hearing more about Mamoswine these days? In the past, they were nearly obsolete from what I saw and heard. |
Yeah You may say that every Garchomps set have a counter, but his movepool it's SO amazing that when you know if he is Scarfed or Banded or SD or Chain it's really late... there is no safe swich, and he can always carry a Yache berry, with that only a CB Weavile doing Ice Punch with Adamant and 252 EV ATK (If both have 31 IV on Atak/Def) you can ohko him, that's the reason cause I don't use Jolly... Really weavile it's too fast for Jolly IMO. But Weavile isn't a safe switch against a Garchomp...
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Would it be safe to say that CB Mamoswine can counter Garchomp with Ice Shard w/o Yache Berry? LO is better for the SD Set, anyways. According to Anti-Pop, it gets strong really fast.
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Manoswine could be a kind of safe change, but that will cause overcentralization. That way anybody will have a Manoswine. And he will fear the Chain Chomp, Dunno if him ohko with Blast (I don't think so) and for ohko a Garchomp the Manoswine will need Adamant and several Ev on attack, and that won't be good for Mano against other sweepers...
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But otherwise, I'll just have to agree with the rest. |
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XD, Well I'm not was trying to say that, but having only Mano as a REAL counter of almost all Chomp Versions (Note that Weavile can handle all except Scarf, if he don't have Ice Shard...) it's a reason for ban Chomp, right? |
How exactly is Mamoswine a counter? You can't switch him in on a CB Outrage without him dying. If you intend on using a 252 HP/DEF Mamoswine, you're not going to 1HKO Garchomp anytime soon. Hell, the only way an adamant 252 ATK Mamo will 1HKO Chomp is with Life Orb or Choice Band. Sure you can revenge kill, but that means you have to lose something first.
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If Manoswine is CB he can use Ice Shard, that will ohko Garchomp without a Yache Berry, and I don't think that a CB Chomp can Ohko a Mano with Outrage, but I don't make any calculations. In that situation you can always revenge kill a Outrage from Chomp.
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Right, anyways he is a safe switch, really predictable but safe.
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Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.
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Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^
EDIT: And the Mods are unmodded, too! 0_o Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense. P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P |
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There are pokemon that are 100% surefire counters for Blissey, where even if their attacks had 80% accuracy they would still easily laugh at blissey. Garchomp has nothing even CLOSE to that. Honestly, I don't know why people keep bringing Blissey into the discussion, it doesn't have much relevance to this as far as its dominance over OUs is concerned (which neither post I quoted mentioned but other people have). |
What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer? |
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The annoying thing with Garchomp is that the steels that only fear one of two moves from it can't really hurt it much besides blowing up. If that's the best way to counter Garchomp... I'm about 60/40 right now, 60 being with the uber party. There just...aren't solid counters like other pokemon have. That and the lack of valid argument against it being uber, while the party of for it being uber has a good argument. |
What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?
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Bliss can't switch in, Metagross does not like EQ. Not a counter.
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But you see, this is the thing, the reason why you are at an impass, the reason why there is even a debate in the first place. As far as theorymon goes, we've all taken down our far share of Chomp. So it is hard to honestly say that it goes into uber without serious consideration.
However, these therories are all pretty true. I predict that in the near future, it will be a beast of unimaginable power. I am for it uber, but I will miss my Chomp "counter". But thefact that it has no counter, the fact that it overcentralizes the game is what makes it so hard to keep. And it doesn't overcentralize like Blissey. Having a counter is one thing, as all teams must be prepared for Bliss. However, Chomp has no reliable counters, and in order to have a glimpse of beating him, we must use such a few selection of "counters" it's not even funny. EDIT:Xarmio, listen to yourself. How good is a counter Blissey? It's awful. But for it to be used on just this one poke, wasting a perfectly good Blissey on one poke with a set that is fail otherwise, is the very definition of overcentralization. You are further proving the reasons why he should be uber. |
Metagross could hold Shuca Berry to weaken the EQ. Blissey would switch in after a poke is KOed and then use counter
EDIT: Okay well my Blissey's ice beam has OHKOed Garchomp. I personally have never had that big a deal with Garchomp. Sure its one of the better pokemon you'll see but it doesnt seem to be of "Uber" status IMO. Its not unstoppable in any way. |
Look at my edit. Meta sucks with Shucca. Blissey can't beat anything else with Counter. But for it to be used on just this one pokemon, is the definition of overcentralization. Along with that flawed strategy, it would be a waste of a Bliss, since it cannot work anywhere else in the game.
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What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.
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Then everything else would be weakened. To a serious degree.
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Also Xairmo, I'm pretty sure it takes a TON of SAtk EVs to OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam. Even then, switching in on it simply will not be happening. EDIT: By epic stall war I mean sweepers wouldn't be able to sweep, and his would turn into GSC (or possibly Advance) with more pokemon. Banning strategic items like CB and Specs really won't help. |
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I agree that Chomp should be banned, but if him is to weak to Uber (There are really good walls there) and to broken to OU, we're just saying that he will be useless. Maybe people will play with him on Uber, but he won't like Lugia after one reflect or Deoxys-A kill him with Ice beam, or Kyogre doing Ice Beam... He will be excelent with Groudon but....
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Counter Bliss always takes down a non brick break Garchomp easy
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Actually he get OHKO by a CB Outrage... I guess he will die even with an EQ (I guess), so really sucks...
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well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.
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This is just a thought, a hunch maybe, but you didnt read any of the frst post did you ? Quote:
Salamence is easy to counter, physical is loled at by Hippowdon, Donphan, Bronzong, Slowbro, frkiin anything, Specsmence gets loled at by cressy Blissey etc, Calm Max sp.def milotics etc, Mix mence with BB/DM/FB/Filler Cressy, sp.defensive Zapdos etc. Difference here, is that none of the above pokemon, infact nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into a CB Garchomp, or any garchomp set really. The counters for mence were from the top of my head, i can name umteennmillion more, however, I CANNOT do the same for chomp, it has no counter. I may consider using a CB Chomp on Wifi in the next couple of weeks to test it, that or try out my Bright Powder Garchomp as apart of a sandstorm team, then tell me which is more broken Mence or Chomp =) Quote:
Any ice type stupid enough to switch into chomp dies (also its guaranteed not to last long anyways, Stealth Rock says hi), apart from them not even being common pokemon. Ice MOVES are however common, still chomp outspeeds most with a Scarf on it, Also have you ever heard of the item "Yache Berry".... Im not trying to be an ass here, this applies to everyone : - if you post without reading, your going to make yourself look a fool, apart from it being incredibly annoying and ignorant. I read all of your threads before posting, so can i just ask for the same respect, thanks. Ive even wrote it in huge Blue size 5 letters on the front page and still no one sees it apparently,so ima go and make it size 8. |
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EDIT: [email protected] Band Adamant 252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min) Sand Veil Outrage Earthquake Stone Edge / Dragon Claw Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Physical Walls: Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57% Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75% Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63% Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79% Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28% "Supposed Counters" Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84% Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80% Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25% "Other" Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64% Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02% Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97% Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18% Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later. ~T_S |
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Thanks T_S, ;), Ice Shard revenge killing is actually harder than it sounds, firstly you have to get the poke in there w/Ice Shard, via sacrificing something on your team so you get a free switch in and hope to god its still locked into Outrage or its gonna switch out and come back later and then your gonna have to make another sacrifice. |
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