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-   -   Garchomp is broken ? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=131731)

sims796 March 29th, 2008 4:43 PM

I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3448113)
I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

Time for my Double Team/ Sub-seeding /Spore Breloom with no sleep caluse =)



Honestly, -28% accuracy to every move in sandstorm and with Brightpowder is ridiculous.


What i find is more ridiculous is that its bulkier than swampert =/ AND it takes 269 sp.att or STAB to guarantee a ohko on a 16 hp/0 sp.def Chomp with an Ice Beam. Oh dear...

I know you think well thats not alot,but most bulky starmie dont even run that much sp.att..

Anti March 29th, 2008 5:02 PM

Bulkier than Swampert...ouch...I use Swampert ._.

Also, about skarmory, even if it could survive fire Fangs easily, what is Brave bird going to do to something with more physical bulk than Swampert?

sims796 March 29th, 2008 5:02 PM

So I must rebreed my Raichu to have HP ICE. And I KNOW that's not enough.

Guess it's time for me to bring out my Choice Scarf Wigglytuff...

Ársa March 29th, 2008 5:13 PM

It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

Dark Azelf March 29th, 2008 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3448219)
It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

I wish we could link to other forums, then i could find that thread. I havent actually viewed it in a while, whats the current situation of it being considered in ubers on Smogon ?


Thing is there's is no 100% sure fire way to counter it, sad, but true.

Ársa March 29th, 2008 5:22 PM

I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

sims796 March 29th, 2008 5:27 PM

If you can, Dark, put it in your sig for the time being.

Lil MuDkiP849 March 29th, 2008 9:39 PM

I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 3:08 AM

I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @[email protected]

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

Ársa March 30th, 2008 3:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunsparce (Post 3449514)
I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @[email protected]

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

boo836 March 30th, 2008 3:38 AM

Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 3:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449531)
Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

This is how I usually run my Weavile

[email protected] Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

Sora_8920 March 30th, 2008 3:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3449539)
Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

Ársa March 30th, 2008 3:50 AM

Yeah, but it cannot OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp is faster and Recover will only work second, you would be on the back foot the whole time. Ice Beam with only 72% Accuracy is lucky to hit 2 times, so unless the Garchomp user is stupid, you shouldn't be able to beat him.

~T_S

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunsparce (Post 3449541)
This is how I usually run my Weavile

[email protected] Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

Well for starters, no need for that much speed when you scarf something with Base 130 speed. (If you would actually do that at all... >_<)

"Freeze-Kill" vs 16HP/min Garchomp = 119.94% - 141.27%

But you need to see something. For starters, this is a non-existant move. Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf. Lastly, if you look at both Swift, Shock Wave, Aura Sphere etc, they are all Special Typed attacks. This means that more than likely the attack will be Special. This makes the damage:

41.83% - 49.31% from your Weavile set.

~T_S

Dunsparce March 30th, 2008 4:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449549)
Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf.

I didn't come up with that 'Scarf Weavile. I got it from This Smogon Forums Thread

Thebiggamer March 30th, 2008 4:21 AM

I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 5:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3448250)
I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

Thanks dude ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil MuDkiP849 (Post 3448931)
I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

Yep, SS teams are nasty. Garchmps movepool is just stupid, Fire, Dragon and Ground hit everything in the game for at least neutral, has Outrage and SD, hence the ability to beat all of its "Counters", i think id be better calling its counters "switch ins" thats all they are, there is no counter for it......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3449531)
Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

Problem being, even if weavile gets a Ice Punch/Shard in, there is always the possiblity of it missing due to sand veil and/or Bright Powder, or even Yache berry, once you way to deal with the dude is gone your pretty much screwed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3449539)
Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Name one poke who can use those moves effectively ? lol. Also if everyone HAD to use those moves, its Over centralization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itachi 2008 (Post 3449544)
Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

Eww, Gastrodon is no counter

252 Neutral Choice Band Garchomp Outrage...

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 271 - 319
Damage: 65.14% - 76.68%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon



Neutral SD EQ from 252 ATT Neutral [email protected] Orb

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 391 - 460
Damage: 93.99% - 110.58%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon.


Draco Meteor from a 252 SP.ATT neutral Garchomp

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 233 - 274
Damage: 56.01% - 65.87%

On a 212 hp / 0 sp.def gastrodon


And Gastrodon is no where near ohkoing Chomp anytime soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thebiggamer (Post 3449586)
I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

Has your Hippowdon got a Choice Band by an chance. ? Thats the only time that will ever OHkO a Garchomp with Ice Fang...










Also guys, the links are in my sig if you want to take a look ;)

Azonic March 30th, 2008 5:45 AM

I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 5:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clade. (Post 3449736)
I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

Quote:

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.
So yep pretty much that ^^^

dialga493 March 30th, 2008 6:34 AM

I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.

Azonic March 30th, 2008 6:35 AM

Quote:

So yep pretty much that ^^^
Heh, I totally read that ... about a second ago. <<;
Still, Garchomp fails at uberism compared to the other gods of uberism. So I have made my point )<

Garchomp, has like no counters. ._. Especially while holding the Yache Berry from Weavile's Ice Shard. Gyarados, sort of does but ... Dayum Stone Edge. So yeah, uberify it. Its too bulky and powerful offensively and defensively for OU.


Quote:

I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.
A little obvious... don'tcha think? It needs EVS <<;

RenzokukenofCerberus March 30th, 2008 7:11 AM

Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

Azonic March 30th, 2008 7:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenzokukenofCerberus (Post 3449955)
Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

That applies for any pokemon, though. And the only likely move to miss is Fire Blast (without hax <<;)

Dark Azelf March 30th, 2008 7:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RenzokukenofCerberus (Post 3449955)
Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

Thing is (If you read the first post with the damage calcs),disregarding sand veil, Swampert looses to SD Chomp it 2hko's Swampert and Swamperts Ice Beam doesnt OHKO Chomp. Also a Choice Band Outrage 2hkos swampy...


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