The PokéCommunity Forums

The PokéCommunity Forums (https://www.pokecommunity.com/index.php)
-   Pokémon Strategies & Movesets (archive) (https://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Garchomp is broken ? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=131731)

sims796 April 2nd, 2008 4:47 PM

Just because we've seen it fall, doesn't mean it belongs in OU. As said, it has no counters.Even Swampert gets 2HKO'ed, so it's not even a reliable switch in. Someting must lose in order to revenge kill. I feel the metagame is just getting used to Chomp, and we will soon see it rise to more unreasonable standards.

Outlawed April 2nd, 2008 9:37 PM

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

Xairmo April 2nd, 2008 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlawed (Post 3461982)
20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

sims796 April 2nd, 2008 9:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlawed (Post 3461982)
20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

What? Are you crazy? Frosslass can't switch into ANYTHING that Chomp throws. Maybe you should re-read those post, especially the first.The fact that he FORCES you to use luck in order to hope and win is the major trouble. 20% evasion is significant, and that miss WILL cost you the match. On top of the fact that we are all forced to use CB Donphans, which is a pretty lousy wall. How stupid do you think the Chomp user is? If it was that easy to beat, we wouldn't have 2 pages or somethin' worth of post.

EDIT:You guys really aren't thinking of why we are all saying why he should be uber. You are giving half made counter arguments. Furthermore, you are ignoring the reasons of why he belongs there. Read the first post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3447220)
[U]Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

Here is a little reference for you guys not reading the first post, then making some half arsed argument.

Melody April 2nd, 2008 10:29 PM

Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt 'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

Angelic Diablo April 2nd, 2008 10:57 PM

I think that there should be a tier for pokemon that are too good for OU, but can't be used in ubers... like Wobby, that thing is single handedly changing the OU environment simply because it can't handle a Specs Mewtwo Shadow Ball etc.

Blissey was under consideration for ubers btw, it's just Nasty Plot and Choice Specs and not to mention Focus Blast and Close Combat kinda changed that. Blissey isn't THE special wall for nothing.

(Not trying to change this to moving Blissey to ubers btw)

_Prince_ April 3rd, 2008 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3461990)
I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

If Garchomp gets kicked out of the OU tier, I see Dragonite taking its place. I actually fear Dragonite more than Garchomp. I have been swept by Dragonite more times than Garchomp has swept my team.

However, Garchomp doesn't really have a proper counter, so that really dents its chances staying in OU.

Hadim Sinan Pasha April 3rd, 2008 12:06 AM

it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

_Prince_ April 3rd, 2008 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame Healer (Post 3462246)
it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

Right... ice type move and scaf'ed? Ya really think that Garchomp won't switch out? Unless if was stuck in outrage, then yeah, that would work after it has killed your previous pokemon. ;)

Ársa April 3rd, 2008 2:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calumon (Post 3462097)
Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 3:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3462459)
Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

_Prince_ April 3rd, 2008 3:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3462515)
And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

Hmm... If it's 1 on 1 then ...

Zangoose
Taunt
SwordsDance
Shadow claw ( + good crit chance)
Crush Claw/Return

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 4:05 AM

Rebember, Double Team has most likely been used, and whenever you're (puny) hits connect, it won't do much, and he can Recover off the damages. And you know more than I that it's never one on one. This is the ultimate haxed staller, only beaten by Taunt, and if it already have Substitute up, it's over.

This set is for anyone bawing over tier list, and not realizing what Chomp is made of.

Ársa April 3rd, 2008 4:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3462515)
The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

[email protected]
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

btw, you still have "Lost" in your friend list. I've given that account the nudge, this one is my main one, as it is the "known" one. :P (If you want to change it. ;))


~T_S

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 4:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3462551)
Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

~T_S

Then they would eat Toxic every turn. You'd lose this stall war far before he does. And he can indeed learn Spikes, so...

Remember, this is one of many pokes that is on a team. Don't tell me you guys stopped thinking as well. There are 5 more pokes to deal with, this being one of many. You can swap Cosmic Power for Reflect, even.

Ársa April 3rd, 2008 4:16 AM

I'm just saying that it isn't invincible if it is made to switch out, cancelling the sub and Cosmic Powers. (If the opponent is stupid enough to let you set up...)

But yes, that is a very apt example of why the tier system is in place. It also helps to get away from the 'Giants' like Tyranitar and Garchomp, and head to a more 'subtle' tier in UU.

~T_S

_Prince_ April 3rd, 2008 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3462550)
Rebember, Double Team has most likely been used, and whenever you're (puny) hits connect, it won't do much, and he can Recover off the damages. And you know more than I that it's never one on one. This is the ultimate haxed staller, only beaten by Taunt, and if it already have Substitute up, it's over.

This set is for anyone bawing over tier list, and not realizing what Chomp is made of.

Right... it's never one on one, in that case why wouldn't you just roar it out or something if it subs up. Still few trainers will be able to handle it ;). I know it's too broken so I won't argue that's it ain't. Same thing with chomp it hardly has a proper counter.

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 4:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3462562)
I'm just saying that it isn't invincible if it is made to switch out, cancelling the sub and Cosmic Powers. (If the opponent is stupid enough to let you set up...)

But yes, that is a very apt example of why the tier system is in place. It also helps to get away from the 'Giants' like Tyranitar and Garchomp, and head to a more 'subtle' tier in UU.

~T_S

Thank you Prince, and while I am here, it isn't hard at all to charge up at least twice for a Substitute, or a Sub then Reflect. Plus, not all teams use hazers, so this is over centralization as well. But I've made my point.

Syaoran April 3rd, 2008 4:34 AM

The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 4:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 3462578)
The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

This is the funniest post I've seen, and it's so true.

_Prince_ April 3rd, 2008 4:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syaoran (Post 3462578)
The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

True...Hippowdon also gets a huge dent from a SD outrage. While skarm is attacked with those fangs or a blast.:cool:

Ársa April 3rd, 2008 4:49 AM

I think the most horrible thing to come out of the past few weeks is that what does have a shot at Garchomp can now be held by Wobbuffet. Counter/Mirror Coat to the death and then sweep with Garchomp. Wobby must go up, and Garchomp has good reason to also head that way.

~T_S

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 4:58 AM

But it'll be a shame for Chomp to move up. We shouldn't rush to boost it right away.

Ársa April 3rd, 2008 5:02 AM

I simply mean that by the current argument, there is for more support 'for' than 'against'. I am still in the wings though. I don't want to go messing too much with this sort of stuff. I'll check Smogon shortly to see where they've gotten on the matter.

~T_S

sims796 April 3rd, 2008 5:15 AM

I'm not saying anything against Garchomp going for uber. But the fact is, we have all beat it time and time again. Unfortunately, the game is evolving, and Garchomp's stregnth's are starting to surface.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 5:31 AM.


Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2018 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2016 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.

Acknowledgements
Use of PokéCommunity Assets
vB Optimise by DragonByte Technologies Ltd © 2023.