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Buoysel March 27th, 2010 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5658855)
My question is: What's exactly boozecoke?

When you take Booze and mike it with coke, I guess. I just hope its coke as in soft drink and not drugs.

Astinus, at this rate, this thread is going to be to be rated PG-13

Bay March 27th, 2010 9:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5656934)
And this is why I don't really post in the FFL anymore. Too many disjointed conversations. If it only slightly relates to the topic, chances are, you might want to find a different topic to attach it to. It makes one feel like you could pay a bit more attention to what's being said.

*Looks at how the topic went from research on fanfics to Sentret flamethrowers again to animal and animals heights to products in the Pokemonworld to getting reviews to Konekodemon to sarcasm and then also sees separate conversations on whether gay characters are allowed in the Pokemon world to the franchise*

...my head hurts now. D: This is what I get for being away playing SS. D:

Yeahhhhh...sorry to backtrack a bit, but I think we all should try to talk about a couple topics at a time and not branch off. Then again, it seems as if I'm being serious. D: Maybe. For now I'll join a couple conversations here real quick:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5658855)
Well, after careful deliberation, you may. So long as you videotape it so I can see what happens. I just prefer the fun happening while I'm here so I can make bets on who will win as you fight each other TO THE DEATH for the amusement of the moderator.

There are times I want to call myself a monorail.

If you are, please be on the level!



This is best vid I can find of that song. D:


Quote:

Bad Solovino. What's with all of you coming up with the dirty thoughts? :c
If I may...

Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino (Post 5643862)


Caterpie evolves into Metapod!
Metapod uses Harden!
*is repeatedly shot with a .45*

*blows the smoke from the gun after pulling a Jacob*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoysel (Post 5658874)
When you take Booze and mike it with coke, I guess. I just hope its coke as in soft drink and not drugs.

Astinus, at this rate, this thread is going to be to be rated PG-13

Dan Brown believes there's drugs in the coke. D: *been reading Lost Symbol the past few days*

Misheard Whisper March 27th, 2010 11:44 PM

That book is sitting on my bookshelf right now. I swear, it's watching me. I should start reading it. Is it any good?

Also, I love Clair. Not like amar, more like encantar, but still, the point is there. Best Gym Leader ever.

Bay March 28th, 2010 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper (Post 5659251)
That book is sitting on my bookshelf right now. I swear, it's watching me. I should start reading it. Is it any good?

Also, I love Clair. Not like amar, more like encantar, but still, the point is there. Best Gym Leader ever.

It's quite good and yes, you should start reading it! :3 It's slightly different than the other two books in some ways if you think about it, but at the same time it is similar to Angels and Demons. XD

Also, agree Clair is the best Gym Leader ever. However, dang it her Kindgra is a beast! Both Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam! D: Should have gotten myself a Pokemon that can learn electric moves. >.>

Elite Overlord LeSabre™ March 28th, 2010 1:05 AM

Do you think 'real world' products, events and people/animals have a place in Pokemon fanfiction? Do you include them in your own fics?
Considering that my stories are riddled with real world references I'm going to say a resounding yes.

Also Jasmine is the ultimate Gym Leader.

Misheard Whisper March 28th, 2010 1:32 AM

@ Bay: Lapras is your friend. Ice Beam for the Dragonair (x2), get something else to deal with Gyarados, and then Perish Song the Kingdra and hope you survive the three turns. :D

@ LeSabre: Jasmine is also pwnage, as is Whitney. (pattern much? XD) But I like Clair the best, perhaps due to my love of Dragon-types.

Giratina ♀ March 28th, 2010 6:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5657412)
I was more of a Cyberchase watcher.

GIRATINA APPROVES OF THIS SENTENCE. :D
/liked both?


Do you think 'real world' products, events and people/animals have a place in Pokemon fanfiction? Do you include them in your own fics?
I think that the Pokémon World is a separate universe from the Real World, and so only animals and products could find a place in my Pokémon World. If there's any mention of animals, though, it will be quick and not dwelled upon.

Quote:

Also, I love Clair. Not like amar, more like encantar, but still, the point is there. Best Gym Leader ever.
Sugar-fueled manchild Lance forever plz. |D

Buoysel March 28th, 2010 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bay Alexison (Post 5659312)
It's quite good and yes, you should start reading it! :3 It's slightly different than the other two books in some ways if you think about it, but at the same time it is similar to Angels and Demons. XD

Also, agree Clair is the best Gym Leader ever. However, dang it her Kindgra is a beast! Both Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam! D: Should have gotten myself a Pokemon that can learn electric moves. >.>

I'm glad I'm not the only one stuck on her. Soul Silver seems to be robbing me off all of my free time. Yet it doesn't seem to bother me that much. D: (It has captured my Soul D:)

Venia Silente March 29th, 2010 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus
Bad Solovino

Ummm...What? I'm pretty lovable! It was Bay who came with the idea of the dirty thoughts! And you gave him the idea! Honest! ;) + awesomesmiley.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper
Also, I love Clair. Not like amar, more like encantar, but still, the point is there. Best Gym Leader ever.

Oh thanks for the spanish-based clarification, Misheard Whisper! I share some of the sentiment -- best female Gym Leader ever (for some reason I could never grasp the charm on Jasmine...) and in the Special manga she whips it good. In my case however is more about desear than it is about encantar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus
So long as you videotape it so I can see what happens. I just prefer the fun happening while I'm here so I can make bets on who will win as you fight each other TO THE DEATH for the amusement of the moderator.

...And we shall proceeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Honest, this place is so weird what with all the conversations taking place at once and people placing bets on who wins a debate between Redstar and anyone. And what with some of you enjoying HG&SS now... :tired:

Miz en Scène March 29th, 2010 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino (Post 5661919)
...And we shall proceeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Unless we begin to procrastinate. Speaking of which, the orgy idea died again didn't it... D:

Quote:

And what with some of you enjoying HG&SS now... :tired:
Lol, I'm not going to get bothered by it. Not going to...
*goes of to play Crystal*

It seems activity has died down a bit. I'm wondering if it'll pick up during Easter?

Astinus March 29th, 2010 12:55 PM

I'm gonna have to agree with Bay on the conversations. Things are moving way too fast that conversations fall onto earlier pages way before everyone could have a chance to respond to them.

I feel as if I should propose the rule of the OC DCC that says you aren't allowed to randomly change the subject. The new subject has to be related to the old subject. I really never posted in the DCC. (Last time I did was probably way back in 2006.) I'm not sure how things work there, but I think it's time that some sort of ruling was tossed into this thread.

Otherwise, this thread moves way too fast, and gets way too random. If things continue on like this, I'm afraid I might have to restart this thread entirely with a list of rules specific for this thread in the first post. This is supposed to be discussing fanfiction, and things have gotten so bad that people I thought were friends are complaining about things behind my back.

Also, Bay, that monorail song was exactly what I was thinking of.

Miz en Scène March 29th, 2010 1:05 PM

Maybe modify the first post and incorporate it into the rules instead of restarting the FFL?

Apart from that, I'm in agreement with Astinus, Bay, and Jax on this. Partly from the way that Astinus explained it. I think that we need some sort of balance in between bold topics, fiction discussion, and general randomness. We can't be random and mad all the time I suppose.

Also, what Astinus said is another reason why I sometimes take a long time in between posting here...

That said, to bring back the conversation,
What's your usual style of reviewing?
Style referring to the format in which you do a full review.

Buoysel March 29th, 2010 1:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino (Post 5661919)
Ummm...What? I'm pretty lovable! It was Bay who came with the idea of the dirty thoughts! And you gave him the idea! Honest! ;) + awesomesmiley.

No no, Then she can blame me for the reminding. No... just no. BAD Solovino!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5662069)
I feel as if I should propose the rule of the OC DCC that says you aren't allowed to randomly change the subject. The new subject has to be related to the old subject.


I has a question: Not trying to be a pain the arse, but I want to ask this question so I don't get my arse in trouble.

What if we are gone for a couple of days? Am I allowed to answer/ talk about something form when I left or do I have to only talk about what is current?

Miz en Scène March 29th, 2010 1:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoysel (Post 5662208)
What if we are gone for a couple of days? Am I allowed to answer/ talk about something form when I left or do I have to only talk about what is current?

Well, I would suggest that we'd have to comply with the current topic since then we'd be derailing the one at hand...

Misheard Whisper March 29th, 2010 8:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solovino (Post 5661919)
Oh thanks for the spanish-based clarification, Misheard Whisper! I share some of the sentiment -- best female Gym Leader ever (for some reason I could never grasp the charm on Jasmine...) and in the Special manga she whips it good. In my case however is more about desear than it is about encantar.

Desear, huh? Hmm, I wouldn't say that. (I think I recall my Spanish teacher telling us that day about the difference between amar and encantar, so that may have been why I used that comparison :3)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5662109)
Maybe modify the first post and incorporate it into the rules instead of restarting the FFL?

Apart from that, I'm in agreement with Astinus, Bay, and Jax on this. Partly from the way that Astinus explained it. I think that we need some sort of balance in between bold topics, fiction discussion, and general randomness. We can't be random and mad all the time I suppose.

Also, what Astinus said is another reason why I sometimes take a long time in between posting here...

That said, to bring back the conversation,
What's your usual style of reviewing?
Style referring to the format in which you do a full review.

High-powered, concentrated snark.

JX Valentine March 29th, 2010 8:56 PM

Textual backhanding time because I'm trying to advocate decent reviewing practices (which the forum seems to be in a desperate lack of, if anyone's read any of my recent rants).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper (Post 5663479)
High-powered, concentrated snark.

I hope you're kidding for the following reasons (and even if you are, the comment still pisses me off for the same reasons, sorry to say):

1. Reviewing. You're doing it wrong. Please don't make me shove the entire first half of my guide down another throat. (Kids, about half of it isn't a pack of guidelines. It's how to avoid being a jack in a writing community. Unless your goal is to actually be a jack in a writing community; in which case, carry on.)

2. Your sig says the FFL is full of intelligent, friendly writers. It might be a good idea to avoid any implication that you're being elitist here (by saying you snark all over the place in reviews) because there's a lot of people in the main forum who don't post in this thread and probably don't because of how hilariously closed-off it's been getting in recent months. Seriously, kids? You're focusing only on this thread. At some point in the FF&W's distant past, the FFL was meant to be a hang-out, yes, but the main portion of the community was in writers helping each other by reviewing and talking to reviewers/writers on their story threads. That's actually how a writing community works. I'm not sure when the FFL turned into a black hole where people don't branch out except the occasional headdeskery in the rest of the Writer's Lounge and to post in their own fics/their friends' fics, but frankly, my point is if you want to have a tea party, go to the DCC. If you want to actually have a community of writers, go out there and make a community of writers instead of twiddling your thumbs over "shenanigans" (and, incidentally, overabused memes =/= insanity) in one thread.

Because, seriously, have some of you actually sat down to read what's going on in the main forum lately? We need decent reviewers. Ones who actually get why reviewers sit down and write a review.

3. I've seen your reviews. (Or, well, review in the singular, considering I just went back and found out you deleted the one I was thinking of in particular, and you haven't really reviewed much after that.) "High-powered, concentrated snark" isn't the first term that would pop into mind if I went back and reread it. If you got vanilla-flavored fluff if you tried to distill snark into its concentrated form and if "high-powered" for such a concoction was the equivalent of a thimble full of 50% low-grade gasoline and 50% water, then I can definitely agree that your reviews are high-powered, concentrated snark.

Yeah, see, that was sarcasm. Just in case you, you know, were trying to be completely and utterly serious when you said you give writers who probably need help more than snark some attitude. Just covering the bases here.

Sorry, kids. I know I probably should leave because I've found other places to hang out (like Serebii my own board real life). It's just that I've spent a lot of time on PC, and this kind of thing has been pissing me off since last summer.

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoysel
What if we are gone for a couple of days? Am I allowed to answer/ talk about something form when I left or do I have to only talk about what is current?

Honestly, I don't go over in the DCC (for reasons that should be apparent, given the above rant), so I don't know how it goes over there. However, I would assume that if the discussion trailed into a different topic thanks to the people who were hanging around while you were gone, back-pedaling through an entire conversation might make you miss the points that were made during that lovely transitional period. Either that, or if a completely new topic was started, chances are, people might not be that interested in the old one anymore. If you're about to make an earth-shattering point and/or coupled it with something about the existing topics to show that you're actually trying to keep up with the thread, I personally don't see what'd stop you, but the final decision's Asty's.

Astinus March 29th, 2010 11:25 PM

This thread has seriously overpowered this forum. Instead of saying "Come to the FFL, where we're fun/intelligent/whathaveyou", we should be advertising the section has a whole where people who have any interest in writing, no matter what the level is, can come here and oh say I don't know fit in?

I've noticed that there always seems to be a cycle to things here. The Lounge gets started talking about writing; something goes random; people start relaxing more; the thread gets more random; people get pissed; the moderator gets an anxiety attack; the thread returns to writing discussions; repeat as needed.

It's like I'm trying to do everything that I can to get this section to work. I love this section these days. But I'm going to be getting a full-time job soon. I don't have a lot of time to do what I want to in this section, which is review. (Heck, I still owe a review from early 2009.) Before, I would have claimed this section doomed, where the people who enter here want that review. The one that actually shows them that someone cares about their story as much as they do. Then I saw that people were getting those reviews at a constant rate, and I figured that others would help.

But just as recently as a few days ago, someone wanted that kind of review and didn't get it.

Solutions have been tossed around. Solutions have been tried and all were met with failure. Just to get reviews to authors. There's always the "review me, I'll review you" saying, but that doesn't work when there's nothing recent to review. And the reviews have to be good. You all said that something needed to be done for those quick one-liner "i lyk this" reviews. So I put the rule in, to make it official, link to a guide to help people figure out what constitutes a review for this section, and...nothing. I get the time to look around this section better than I could, and I see one-liner reviews going around and no reports for these reviews which are against the rules. Those people who used to review that well have left because of what this thread has done to this section.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm getting tired of people saying that there are problems but either not letting a person in charge know, or offering/doing anything about them. I mean, yes, there are problems. But hey, maybe if there's some actual effort tossed into things, this section would actually be a section instead of a thread.

There seems to be some sort of nostalgia going around. A missing of the old days. And even though I have major difficulties forming emotional attachment to anything, I still have to admit that I miss the way the section used to be. The Lounge was a place for the writers/readers to relax as they took breaks from reviewing. But now, there's very few reviewers, and so people aren't posting their works, which makes this section look terribly dead.

And the bold topics. Sorry, Mizan, but I remember that bold topic clearly, and that means that it appeared in the past month. Solovino took the time to go through the thread and write up the bold topic list, but it makes no difference. Yes, if there's no bold topic and no randomness allowed, then the Lounge seems dead. But that's okay. The Lounge can not have a new post for days. And who knows, maybe that means that the people who can't post because they have no idea what's going on in this thread can join in and bring some new sort of discussion and ideas here.

And not all serious discussions have to turn into a wank bait. Which means that they can happen. Sure, people could turn things into wank by being triggering annoying people, but that doesn't have to happen. We can have some discussions here that are actually serious, and where the discussions aren't all in bold.

The memes are getting tiring. The "Sentret with Flamethrowers" thing? Almost two years old. I know because I mentioned it about a fic I was writing back then. This is the Internet. Memes move fast. Come up with new ones and let the old ones go out in a blaze of glory before they get run into the ground.

How're the awards going to work if no one is out there reading the stories posted? I'll say right now that I really and honestly don't have the time to review like I used to back when I was feared throughout another forum. And maybe others are the same. But for those that have the time, try a little? A small bit of effort that follows the rules and guidelines that are nicely pointed out to you?

Look, this section is for fanfiction writing. Wanna talk games/books/anything else? There's a whole wide forum out there that has sections for each one of those. This forum was created for writing stories, posting them, and getting reviews, and getting advice needed for any part of that. But right now? Honestly, I wouldn't ask here for help needed for my fanfics, and that's saying something.

Right now, I'm just really not happy with anyone. I've been tempted many times to close this thread so that its domination could end, but I've never done it because I've always had the belief that people could change this on your own. All I'm asking is that Fanfiction & Writing becomes a section again and not one single thread of the same people posting so quickly people are scared away.

I also think all of this rage is built up from one book cover change.

Quote:

What if we are gone for a couple of days? Am I allowed to answer/ talk about something form when I left or do I have to only talk about what is current?
If you missed something someone says and want to go "I agree!", then we can all do without that. If you missed something someone says and want to add something new, fresh, and exciting to the discussion that provides an interesting feature, post to your heart's desire.

Misheard Whisper March 29th, 2010 11:26 PM

I haven't reviewed for a while, exactly because my reviews started to turn into snark (or so I'm told.) Basically, I'm a sulky little kid who decided not to do something because he got snapped at for doing it wrong. Yeah, sue me. :(

The last review I did, in particular, immediately got slammed by other reviewers of the fic in question as being unnecessarily rude and sarcastic, so I deleted it and haven't reviewed a single fanfic since.

インフェルノの津波 March 30th, 2010 12:15 AM

Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

JX Valentine March 30th, 2010 7:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5663791)
So I put the rule in, to make it official, link to a guide to help people figure out what constitutes a review for this section, and...nothing. I get the time to look around this section better than I could, and I see one-liner reviews going around and no reports for these reviews which are against the rules. Those people who used to review that well have left because of what this thread has done to this section.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm getting tired of people saying that there are problems but either not letting a person in charge know, or offering/doing anything about them. I mean, yes, there are problems. But hey, maybe if there's some actual effort tossed into things, this section would actually be a section instead of a thread.

First off, exactly and thank you.

Second off, I've got a few ideas.

One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two. This forces people to take their private discussions (i.e., "craziness") to VMs or the DCC while giving people a reason to go look at something else for awhile. A result of this may be chasing most of the FFL regulars to the DCC or a similar thread (or even cause them to try to create a new FFL), but that's just a worst-case scenario. A more favorable result, hopefully, is that the FFL kids will get bored and end up on the main forum. I'm of course not saying you should close it forever. I'm just saying close it to give people more of a reason to stop hanging around the same place forever.

If that happens, you might get reviewers, but because that's unlikely to happen on its own, there's a few things that need to occur first:

1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.

Incidentally, on the subject of reviewing, I honestly can't remember how snarky you got, MW, but I get the feeling it wasn't that bad and that you ran into groupies. Review again. If it turns out you were snarky or if you're afraid of being snarky, then err on the side of caution and use the "I'm here to help writers" line as a mantra. Think of puppies or something.

Point is, if people miss the point of the guide, it clearly needs to be rewritten. (And I'm working on it in the spare moments I have, I assure you.) And then it needs to be shoved as far down the regulars' throats as possible before they're sent out. If we establish a standard for reviewing, people will try to conform to it. For example, Mizan's early reviews seemed to mirror my betaing, so it's clear to me that if you get a handful of regulars all reviewing in their own version of quality (that isn't littered with errors -- because research is godly, kids -- or full of snark), people will follow your example. Heck, for an off-site example, people emulated Yami Ryu on Serebii all the time, just because she was such a prominent reviewer. This is why there was a lot of drama, but the point is, if you give a mouse a good reviewer, the mouse will want to review the same way.

2. We need to have either an incentive for reviewing or a connection between writers and reviewers. This tends to be more of a problem because there's only so much you can do without knowing how the community will react to it (i.e., ignore it or otherwise). I've considered a few possibilities, including:

- Emblems that are handed out to quality reviewers. There's one for writers, after all.

- A NaReWriMo (basically, NaNoWriMo for reviews) challenge. Maybe one that involves prizes such as emblems for participation. (I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

- A more open reviewer request thread. As in, the review exchange failed. I admit that, and I see it's because we didn't really have that many active writers in the FFL at the time. Hence, I'm thinking maybe there might be a place (maybe an entire usergroup to give people space to create profile threads where people can request reviews) where writers can come along, read a profile, and send requests to people they want to get to review their fic. Most people like talking about themselves (so a profile thread might be appealing), and I doubt many people will be able to resist a review request if the writer keeps pestering them about whether or not the review is getting done.

Either way, this one's a vague concept. We can either do it like Serebii's review thread, or we can try something new with the usergroup/individual profile thread idea. Or someone else could try something that might help.

So, yes, we're going to have to figure out a way to get the FFL to actually participate. Don't get me wrong. I understand that people are busy, but with all the time a lot of people spend in the FFL, you could be doing something like making friends with some of those writers out there and actually opening up the community as a whole. Devote your time to reaching out and helping everyone else instead of spamming a single thread, basically.

And don't give me crap about "but it's fun for a few people." This is PC. We're supposed to be an open community. If this were a smaller forum, I might accept that, but we've got newbies in the main forum. They're part of the community too, so you might as well actually go in there and say hello or go find a new place to hang out. Like VMs.

Quote:

This forum was created for writing stories, posting them, and getting reviews, and getting advice needed for any part of that. But right now? Honestly, I wouldn't ask here for help needed for my fanfics, and that's saying something.
Also bowing to your awesome power of saying things I couldn't figure out how to say.

Seriously, though, this is exactly my point. It's all for teh lulz, I'm sure, but you guys just have to remember that this is a writing community. As such, the FFL isn't meant to stand alone as the home for one tiny group of people who don't do much in the main forum. (There's a couple of you who do, and more power to you for getting it. Seriously. However, I'm referring to the kids who actually don't do anything outside of the FFL and maybe their own fic threads.) It's meant to be a writing community. You know, a place for writers -- those people who post in threads in the main forum and those people who review threads and need help with creating their fics -- to come in and ask those little questions that wouldn't cover an entire thread by themselves. (Like "Hey, does anyone know what the word is for X concept?" or "Hey, how's this for a fic idea? Too cliche?")

I honestly don't care if you want to keep a close-knit family, but that's what VMs are for, in all seriousness. You may want to try those if you really want to continue to share with the less than ten other people who make up the regulars of this thread updates about your game.

Or, alternatively, you could try a usergroup. Or a private board of your own. Or the DCC/a more appropriate thread for that. Because, seriously, it's entirely possible to get a group of kids to migrate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by インフェルノの津波
Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

Ironically, this is something you're supposed to be able to come to the FFL to do. Feel free, love. Not all of us bite, especially if it means helping someone else out.

Bay March 30th, 2010 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by インフェルノの津波 (Post 5663864)
Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

Why not? From what I can understand, her post is basically about the few people here who hangs around here too much to chit-chat and not help out the other people in the writing community that asks a question here or needs a good review. I admit, I'm guilty of this too. I spend my free time here (though not as much as before) when I could have helped a writer or two. >.>;

But yeah, if you need help with your FF character or your story overall, at least I'll help you. :) Just remind me in PM/VM so that I don’t forget because with uni and work I tend to lost track of what reviews I owe. XD BUT ANYWAYS, POST IT, DANG IT!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5664468)
First off, exactly and thank you.

Second off, I've got a few ideas.

One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two. This forces people to take their private discussions (i.e., "craziness") to VMs or the DCC while giving people a reason to go look at something else for awhile. A result of this may be chasing most of the FFL regulars to the DCC or a similar thread (or even cause them to try to create a new FFL), but that's just a worst-case scenario. A more favorable result, hopefully, is that the FFL kids will get bored and end up on the main forum. I'm of course not saying you should close it forever. I'm just saying close it to give people more of a reason to stop hanging around the same place forever.

Sounds like a good idea. And actually, a few of us were in the DCC before and it tends to be fun there time to time. The only thing I’m worried about is there will be separate conversations between the FFL regulars there and the DCC regulars if that were to happen. Then again, DCC is more welcoming of new people joining in the conversation and the couple FFL regulars that visted the DCC joined in the conversations fine for the most part.

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1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.
Agree to that. Maybe what scares some reviewers is they would have to write a one page review and have to put a lot of effort on it(oh gawds, brings me back when I had to review for a one shot contest at Serebii XD; ). I guess the main thing is that a review doesn’t have to be spectular or with too much indepth analysis. A few mentions of your favroite scenes or what scenes needs work and a bit of advice should work, I believe.

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2. We need to have either an incentive for reviewing or a connection between writers and reviewers. This tends to be more of a problem because there's only so much you can do without knowing how the community will react to it (i.e., ignore it or otherwise). I've considered a few possibilities, including:

- Emblems that are handed out to quality reviewers. There's one for writers, after all.

- A NaReWriMo (basically, NaNoWriMo for reviews) challenge. Maybe one that involves prizes such as emblems for participation. (I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

- A more open reviewer request thread. As in, the review exchange failed. I admit that, and I see it's because we didn't really have that many active writers in the FFL at the time. Hence, I'm thinking maybe there might be a place (maybe an entire usergroup to give people space to create profile threads where people can request reviews) where writers can come along, read a profile, and send requests to people they want to get to review their fic. Most people like talking about themselves (so a profile thread might be appealing), and I doubt many people will be able to resist a review request if the writer keeps pestering them about whether or not the review is getting done.
OH, I CAN HAZ AM EMBLEM! I DOES GREAT REVIEWS! *gets shot *

In all seriousness though, maybe emblems will work. Honestly, writers wouldn’t be able to be decent without good reviewers helping them, so reviewers should be appericated more.

As for the NaReWriMo part, hm we discussed the challenge thing before and it flopped. However, I guess for this it might work as this will go for quanity and not quality, but only problem is I’m afraid some people might just copy and past their review or their reviews are basically telling or or less so the same (like Yami Ryu at Serebii).

As for the review request thread thing, I think this could work more better than Serebii, actually. There seems to be a lot of people needing reviews here more than at Serebii, so I think we should give this a shot.

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Seriously, though, this is exactly my point. It's all for teh lulz, I'm sure, but you guys just have to remember that this is a writing community. As such, the FFL isn't meant to stand alone as the home for one tiny group of people who don't do much in the main forum. (There's a couple of you who do, and more power to you for getting it. Seriously. However, I'm referring to the kids who actually don't do anything outside of the FFL and maybe their own fic threads.) It's meant to be a writing community. You know, a place for writers -- those people who post in threads in the main forum and those people who review threads and need help with creating their fics -- to come in and ask those little questions that wouldn't cover an entire thread by themselves. (Like "Hey, does anyone know what the word is for X concept?" or "Hey, how's this for a fic idea? Too cliche?")

Or, alternatively, you could try a usergroup. Or a private board of your own. Or the DCC/a more appropriate thread for that. Because, seriously, it's entirely possible to get a group of kids to migrate.
Ten bucks says they’ll switch going in your forum and take it over for a while (actually, they might have already). D: Not trying to offend you guys here or anything , considering I would be a hypocrite if I were. >.>; Seriously though, I love you guys and I enjoy the fun conversations we have here/through chats and VMs, but this is kind of bothering me now too in that it seems we, including myself, haven’t welcome a new member yet.

But yeah, realizing now how bad this is getting, something must be done this time to get this part of the forum back in shape like it used to be. We have been talking about this over and over, but nothing has been done, as Astinus mentioned.

JX Valentine March 30th, 2010 1:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Bay Alexison (Post 5665367)
Agree to that. Maybe what scares some reviewers is they would have to write a one page review and have to put a lot of effort on it(oh gawds, brings me back when I had to review for a one shot contest at Serebii XD; ). I guess the main thing is that a review doesn’t have to be spectular or with too much indepth analysis. A few mentions of your favroite scenes or what scenes needs work and a bit of advice should work, I believe.

Yep. It's totally kosher if you can only write a paragraph that covers exactly that. All you have to do is give the writer some sign that you actually read the fic by pointing something out instead of just leaving it at, "omg this is such an interesting concept! I can't wait for more!" Because, you know, the story could have been about dog filth, and that review could have still applied. *kashrug*

However, if you said that was an interesting story about dog filth and you really thought it's impressive how the writer managed to give dog filth a personality in its struggle against the shovel, that actually shows you were paying some kind of attention. And no snark intended at all in this entire paragraph.

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As for the NaReWriMo part, hm we discussed the challenge thing before and it flopped. However, I guess for this it might work as this will go for quanity and not quality, but only problem is I’m afraid some people might just copy and past their review or their reviews are basically telling or or less so the same (like Yami Ryu at Serebii).
That's a good point. Likewise, because some people might be trying to pump out bunches of reviews at once, there might be some kids who decide not to restrain themselves in the tact department. So, maybe not a NaReWriMo.

Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

Speaking about quality, I had another idea after thinking about what MW said. Clearly, feedback from other reviewers tends to be a problem, too. What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine. That way, we don't have kids scaring people away from reviewing, and Jax won't have to smack people on the backs of their heads for ripping apart fics without actually doing any research into what they're talking about (which has happened far more times than I care to mention). It'd be a helpful discussion, basically, for people to trade tips on reviewing and whatnot.

Because, yeah, you're right. Reviewers don't really get too much appreciation, and we don't really seem to talk as much about the reviewing process as we do about the writing one.

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As for the review request thread thing, I think this could work more better than Serebii, actually. There seems to be a lot of people needing reviews here more than at Serebii, so I think we should give this a shot.
Awesome. Would it work better as one sticky in Writer's Lounge a la Serebii or a usergroup with everyone getting their own request threads? Moreover, who should set it up?

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Ten bucks says they’ll switch going in your forum and take it over for a while (actually, they might have already). D:
I assure you. I've promised that if a clique happens on the BBS, I'm kicking someone's ass.

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But yeah, realizing now how bad this is getting, something must be done this time to get this part of the forum back in shape like it used to be. We have been talking about this over and over, but nothing has been done, as Astinus mentioned.
Oh, don't worry. That's why I came back. Because, clearly, I'm an egotist who thinks she can kick your tails into shaping up. It's only the first day, so I can't really say there's solid plans here (especially since I'm not even going to start pretending I have the shiny mod stick), but I can at least outline what's plausible to be done and twist people's arms into doing it. Egotism aside, though, if anyone else can come up with anything to add (because everything that I've been able to come up with for a plan so far has already been mentioned... and I'm definitely actually working on it, I promise), feel free to throw something in but keep in mind that if you mention it, I'll most likely try to cram it in.

Moreover, if you volunteer to do any of the above, I'm probably going to be on your ass until it gets done, especially if I find you posting in this thread when you can be working. No more of this "oh, we've got plans, but we're not going to execute them" crap. If you want a better forum with a more open atmosphere where it feels like you're actually doing something to help your fellow forum-goers and where you're not just sitting around and talking about the same things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?

Astinus March 30th, 2010 3:21 PM

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Originally Posted by インフェルノの津波 (Post 5663864)
Reading Astinus's post makes me want to not post my FF character.

But that's what this thread is for. To combine all the "Here's my character, what do you think?" threads. It's just that I wouldn't suggest it now because the unfortunate side of things is that this thread moved too fast that what you needed help on would have been buried in other conversations.

So you can still post your character. Just, for right now, in a separate thread so that it doesn't get brushed aside from everything else.

I do think I was a bit more blunt last night, but I'm going through a terrible time right now. I'll try not to bring it into this.

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5664468)
One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two.

I thought of doing that earlier today, but previous experience told me that closing the thread just causes the section to keel over and die. I'm thinking that if there's just a bit more of a tighter grasp of the rules for this section (for example: relate things to fanfiction) then the thread could remain open and thing can continue as if we're in My Little Pony Land. (Or Car Land. Or Pot Land.)


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1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.
Actually, I'm not even looking for a paragraph for reviews to fit the rules. Just as long as it's not the same "I like this! Write more!" review that can be pasted into any sort and make sense, it fits the rules. For the examples, you'll just have to excuse me using my own fics for this.

Good: I like your description of Ilex Forest when Aden woke up. Hope to see more writing like that!
Bad: I like this chapter. More please!

That's it.

Damn it, Jax and Bay pretty much said everything else I could say. So if I tend to gloss over things, they already said it better than I could.

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(I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)
For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

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So, yes, we're going to have to figure out a way to get the FFL to actually participate. Don't get me wrong. I understand that people are busy, but with all the time a lot of people spend in the FFL, you could be doing something like making friends with some of those writers out there and actually opening up the community as a whole. Devote your time to reaching out and helping everyone else instead of spamming a single thread, basically.
That's exactly what I meant with the idea that this thread dominated this section. People would gravitate here first because it was easier to read through the pages of the conversations here than it was to find a fic, read it, and review.

Heck, the Beta Thread is slowly going. I just told someone today to find a beta, and I'm not sure if there is one around here.

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However, if you said that was an interesting story about dog filth and you really thought it's impressive how the writer managed to give dog filth a personality in its struggle against the shovel
Plot bunny.

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What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine.
A resounding YES to this. There have been times when I had to correct people who reviewed because it was just way too confusing for the author to figure out, or the wrong information was given. So basic guidelines for reviewing should be said somewhere (do your research, take your time, proof-read), and then there's the review reviewing thread, where people can go and learn how to review in a helpful, good manner. That way, writers can come here and get reviews to help them improve. Not LARGE-SIZED CAPSLOCK BLINDING YELLOW I AM GOD reviews.

I'm happy with anything just as long as something gets done. Sure, it seems like I'm squashing people's fun, but I do that enough at my real job. I just want to see a section I love get the attention it deserves.

Giratina ♀ March 30th, 2010 4:18 PM

Yeah. Since I haven't been in here when the conversation started, I think I may just need to make little points on whatever tangents the rest of you all have gone off to. |D

I think that we do need a usergroup for "writers goofing off" and this thread be returned to its original purpose, "writers helping writers with writing". (If that wasn't the original purpose after all, please excuse me and my lateness...) We would be able to organize things a lot easier and still retain the goofiness that emnates from this thread, but it does seem to dominate over most places. I can name plenty of writers who haven't even set foot in this thread - it may be because they've told themselves that they don't need any help with their fanfics, but I think it also may involve the fact that we, as the main question thread, seem to be such a tight-knit group that any newcomers might just be shunned. And I hate to say it, but we sort of have shown that tendency on more than one occasion.

I really hate to make this sound like one of those horrible persuasive essays I (or some of you) had to write in middle school, but like Astinus pointed out, we have been pretty lax on the rules in favor of goofing off. However, even if we do have a separate thread or usergroup for people goofing off, it might still make the whole dead forum situation worse. So unless we can all find a way to magically strike the balance between discussion and serious-business Writing Talk, I don't know what to do on that count.

...As a sub-note, we need moar bold topics. When was the last time we had one of those?

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For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.
If my computer is still alive by the time this comes to fruition (VIRUSES!! /raeg) then I believe I can help with that.

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Sure, it seems like I'm squashing people's fun,
Personally, I think we all need to apply some pressure on our fun if the section is going to make it through the year. So yes, this is a very good discussion...

And now that the awards have been mentioned: I don't know if they're really going to fly. I mean, yes, they're going just peachy on Serebii, but I think that's because every writer and reviewer sort of lives inside their own thread and pokes at the Authors' Café every so often - there's none of the familiarity we here at PokéCom harbor. Plus, it's got a lot more members, so not everyone voting is as likely to know the writer - or be the writer - of a fic they're nominated for. So to be honest, I like the idea, but right now the community really isn't fit for it.

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1. The reviewer's guide needs to be consolidated and clarified. (Including a note that says a paragraph is okay as a review as long as it points out something specific about the fic.) The main points just need to be emphasized, and it needs to be clarified that a reviewer's job isn't to be funny or snarky.
Urk. Who would want to be snarky in a review? Knowing the average amount of spine that most writers have? Just saying...

And now that we have thaaat subject up, do you all think we ought to move the Reviewing Guide (back?) to the main forum? I mean, it's not like the reviewers either A. enter the Writers' Lounge if they don't write or B. look past the FFL if they do.

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There's one for writers, after all.
Is there really? /didn't know about this

...says the lost thirteen-year-old who came somewhat late. |D

Miz en Scène March 30th, 2010 4:22 PM

I can't believe four people posted while I was formulating my response. I had to change to accommodate.

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Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5663791)
Solutions have been tossed around. Solutions have been tried and all were met with failure. Just to get reviews to authors. There's always the "review me, I'll review you" saying, but that doesn't work when there's nothing recent to review. And the reviews have to be good. You all said that something needed to be done for those quick one-liner "i lyk this" reviews. So I put the rule in, to make it official, link to a guide to help people figure out what constitutes a review for this section, and...nothing. I get the time to look around this section better than I could, and I see one-liner reviews going around and no reports for these reviews which are against the rules. Those people who used to review that well have left because of what this thread has done to this section.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm getting tired of people saying that there are problems but either not letting a person in charge know, or offering/doing anything about them. I mean, yes, there are problems. But hey, maybe if there's some actual effort tossed into things, this section would actually be a section instead of a thread.

I’m just interjecting here for a brief moment, but I actually remembered why I advocated the FFOTY contest and the nomination/voting thing. My original plan, before I lost track due to the fact that I was all over the place planning with everyone else was for the FFOTY’s nomination part to be a venue where nominated fics(i.e. the good ones that deserve it) should be reviewed before being voted on. I admit that with everything else going on I kind of forgot that crucial detail and the fact that it doesn’t help those new, struggling writers (which incidentally, I’ve occasionally reviewed and have taken up a position in the beta-thread for that reason). My point here is that this is what the FFOTY was supposed to be about. The recognition and review of good fics, that have been read by one person, but have been ignored by the general community.

For the matter of reviewing beginner fics, I find that the most fun, and or challenging to review since there’s something satisfying about pointing out mistakes even though you know that you make plenty of those same mistakes. In the process, you learn more about writing too.

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There seems to be some sort of nostalgia going around. A missing of the old days. And even though I have major difficulties forming emotional attachment to anything, I still have to admit that I miss the way the section used to be. The Lounge was a place for the writers/readers to relax as they took breaks from reviewing. But now, there's very few reviewers, and so people aren't posting their works, which makes this section look terribly dead.
Yes, but those who used to be avid reviewers now have other responsibilities(like you and your job) and those people who have just joined aren’t confident enough to review because they feel they might make a fool out of themselves. At least, that’s how I think it is… I can attest to the fact that the section looks dead. Our FF community isn’t as established as Serebii’s(I would post my fics there if it weren’t for the fact that every time I visit the site, it’s excruciatingly slow even with my connection.) for some reason or another, and maybe we really need to bring in fresh talent or maybe encourage budding talent here on PC.

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And the bold topics. Sorry, Mizan, but I remember that bold topic clearly, and that means that it appeared in the past month. Solovino took the time to go through the thread and write up the bold topic list, but it makes no difference. Yes, if there's no bold topic and no randomness allowed, then the Lounge seems dead. But that's okay. The Lounge can not have a new post for days. And who knows, maybe that means that the people who can't post because they have no idea what's going on in this thread can join in and bring some new sort of discussion and ideas here.
Yes, but I have a crappy memory and the BTI hasn’t been updated in three months(Sol’s obviously busy so I’m not blaming him of course. ;D) so I really wasn’t sure if we had had that topic before. To be honest, it really was meant as an attempt to drag the FFL back to regular writing and reviewing type discussions because I really saw sense it what Jax was saying.
Also, to me the main pattern which happens when someone new joins the FFL and is too scared(or isn’t bothered enough) to strongly impose their presence(either by following the flow or challenging norms) then what we have is at least one or two members saying ‘Hi’ and or responding and the rest ignoring that single person. After a while, maybe because said writer feels ignored or something or maybe because he feels as though he can’t really join in the lounge, they leave…

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How're the awards going to work if no one is out there reading the stories posted? I'll say right now that I really and honestly don't have the time to review like I used to back when I was feared throughout another forum. And maybe others are the same. But for those that have the time, try a little? A small bit of effort that follows the rules and guidelines that are nicely pointed out to you?

Look, this section is for fanfiction writing. Wanna talk games/books/anything else? There's a whole wide forum out there that has sections for each one of those. This forum was created for writing stories, posting them, and getting reviews, and getting advice needed for any part of that. But right now? Honestly, I wouldn't ask here for help needed for my fanfics, and that's saying something.

Right now, I'm just really not happy with anyone. I've been tempted many times to close this thread so that its domination could end, but I've never done it because I've always had the belief that people could change this on your own. All I'm asking is that Fanfiction & Writing becomes a section again and not one single thread of the same people posting so quickly people are scared away.
Like I stated earlier, the awards were initially conceived as a way to get people to read good fiction rather than award fiction for being good. I just lost my heading along the way and forgot to mention it. Or did I?

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Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper (Post 5663792)
I haven't reviewed for a while, exactly because my reviews started to turn into snark (or so I'm told.) Basically, I'm a sulky little kid who decided not to do something because he got snapped at for doing it wrong. Yeah, sue me.

The last review I did, in particular, immediately got slammed by other reviewers of the fic in question as being unnecessarily rude and sarcastic, so I deleted it and haven't reviewed a single fanfic since.

This is exactly what I’m saying… Some reviewers (sorry MW; best example in a short space of time) just don’t do it because they feel that they might be doing something wrong or they’re scared of making the same mistake twice. Again, no offense MW.

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5664468)
One of these strategies is to close the FFL for awhile. Obviously, it's what might be causing part of the problem because people get so focused on only it that they forget an entire forum exists. Hence, you could try experimenting by leaving it closed for awhile. I was thinking a week might do it, but in order to get people to keep checking the forum, you'd probably need to make it a random time that's longer than a day or two. This forces people to take their private discussions (i.e., "craziness") to VMs or the DCC while giving people a reason to go look at something else for awhile. A result of this may be chasing most of the FFL regulars to the DCC or a similar thread (or even cause them to try to create a new FFL), but that's just a worst-case scenario. A more favorable result, hopefully, is that the FFL kids will get bored and end up on the main forum. I'm of course not saying you should close it forever. I'm just saying close it to give people more of a reason to stop hanging around the same place forever.

Personally, I don’t know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn’t deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.). Rather, as you may or may not know, I’m a --sort off—busy person who lurks around PC while doing some form of work which means that most of the times I don’t have time to write long, winded replies to certain statements. I don’t post in the main forum as much as I should because, as stated, I’m busy and the only place where I can post a statement measuring at least six lines max without breaking a reviewing rule is the FFL. My outlook is that if I really want to review someone, I set aside some time to do a quality review rather than conjure one up on the spot where it may or may not be of any quality at all.
Anyway, like I said, I don’t know why you guys don’t review as much as you should(though I’m one to talk), but I think that if hat Jax said is true, we might move the FFL to the Main section so that fics and the FFL aren’t separated by a subforum.


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"I'm here to help writers" line as a mantra. Think of puppies or something.
Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time. At least, that’s what I do. Honestly, I don’t think about ‘helping writer’s’ when I review(thought that is a reason although I don’t think about it often). I think about the joys of maintaining a neutral stance while getting to point out mistakes. Humans just love finding fault in others whether subconsciously or consciously so take that to your advantage and remember that every review eases you slowly into the community. (This is aimed at everybody btw.)

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Point is, if people miss the point of the guide, it clearly needs to be rewritten. (And I'm working on it in the spare moments I have, I assure you.) And then it needs to be shoved as far down the regulars' throats as possible before they're sent out. If we establish a standard for reviewing, people will try to conform to it. For example, Mizan's early reviews seemed to mirror my betaing, so it's clear to me that if you get a handful of regulars all reviewing in their own version of quality (that isn't littered with errors -- because research is godly, kids -- or full of snark), people will follow your example. Heck, for an off-site example, people emulated Yami Ryu on Serebii all the time, just because she was such a prominent reviewer. This is why there was a lot of drama, but the point is, if you give a mouse a good reviewer, the mouse will want to review the same way.
I don’t get the mouse analogy, and I don’t really care since it’s not relevant, but yes, this is what should be done. Though I’m not sure how you’re going to get people to read the guide seeing as some(and I refer to the writer’s community on PC; you know who you are) have barely even read the rules to begin with. The best idea I can think of is to PM them to read it or something along those lines.

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2. We need to have either an incentive for reviewing or a connection between writers and reviewers. This tends to be more of a problem because there's only so much you can do without knowing how the community will react to it (i.e., ignore it or otherwise). I've considered a few possibilities, including:

- Emblems that are handed out to quality reviewers. There's one for writers, after all.

- A NaReWriMo (basically, NaNoWriMo for reviews) challenge. Maybe one that involves prizes such as emblems for participation. (I'm not sure what level of security you need in order to create emblems, so if it's out of the question, we can toss around other ideas for incentives. A banner to put in your signature to say you won the challenge, for example.)

- A more open reviewer request thread. As in, the review exchange failed. I admit that, and I see it's because we didn't really have that many active writers in the FFL at the time. Hence, I'm thinking maybe there might be a place (maybe an entire usergroup to give people space to create profile threads where people can request reviews) where writers can come along, read a profile, and send requests to people they want to get to review their fic. Most people like talking about themselves (so a profile thread might be appealing), and I doubt many people will be able to resist a review request if the writer keeps pestering them about whether or not the review is getting done.
-I always assumed that the Writer’s emblem was given out for a healthy amount of writing and reviewing. Something I’ve been aiming for with my current reviews.
-To a certain extent, you can judge how people react based on the current analysis of the community. My guess is that when emblems are thrown out into the crowd, they lose thei value pretty quickly. Also, a banner would sometimes prove to be ineffective since not many people like modifying their sigs for something that trvial. Also, it’s kind of hard to judge reviews since their even more varied than writing.
-You mean kind of like the beta-thread, but more open and more of requesting feedback rather than asking for help?

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5665597)
Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

I’m pretty sure Digi-kun has this kind of thing over at the JE section. ;D Just saying…

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things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?
Ah, but I am working on the awards…

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For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.
Do we get the service to the community emblem for this? XD

Yeah, I think I might be able to knock something up. Possibly...

Buoysel March 30th, 2010 4:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5666005)
For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

If any ideas come to mind, let me know.

Astinus, I agree.

My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?

Bay March 30th, 2010 5:54 PM

Haha, I keep checking back and forth in this thread and see you guys replying befrore me. D:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5665597)
Maybe, though, we can have a thread that has a running tally of how many (non-generic, non-one-liner, non-copypasta'd) reviews you've submitted, with X number of reviews being the key to getting a shiny emblem/prize?

Hm, the only thing is that might take up too much work and time. You would have to read though a lot of reviews AND keep track of that member’s review posts. Understandable that it’ll require time and effort to get this place filled with some decent reviews again, but I’m thinking along the lines of something that won’t be as tedious as that.

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Speaking about quality, I had another idea after thinking about what MW said. Clearly, feedback from other reviewers tends to be a problem, too. What about a thread that reviews reviewing style? As in, a place where reviewers can submit samples for other people to discuss and help refine. That way, we don't have kids scaring people away from reviewing, and Jax won't have to smack people on the backs of their heads for ripping apart fics without actually doing any research into what they're talking about (which has happened far more times than I care to mention). It'd be a helpful discussion, basically, for people to trade tips on reviewing and whatnot.
I also say yes to that. :)



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Awesome. Would it work better as one sticky in Writer's Lounge a la Serebii or a usergroup with everyone getting their own request threads? Moreover, who should set it up?
Usergroups in PC tends to die…fast. D: However, sticky should be fine.

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Oh, don't worry. That's why I came back. Because, clearly, I'm an egotist who thinks she can kick your tails into shaping up. It's only the first day, so I can't really say there's solid plans here (especially since I'm not even going to start pretending I have the shiny mod stick), but I can at least outline what's plausible to be done and twist people's arms into doing it. Egotism aside, though, if anyone else can come up with anything to add (because everything that I've been able to come up with for a plan so far has already been mentioned... and I'm definitely actually working on it, I promise), feel free to throw something in but keep in mind that if you mention it, I'll most likely try to cram it in.

Moreover, if you volunteer to do any of the above, I'm probably going to be on your ass until it gets done, especially if I find you posting in this thread when you can be working. No more of this "oh, we've got plans, but we're not going to execute them" crap. If you want a better forum with a more open atmosphere where it feels like you're actually doing something to help your fellow forum-goers and where you're not just sitting around and talking about the same things over and over again and where it's actually possible to do things like the awards, we're going to get to work. Sound good?
Yeah, sounds good. Hm, if I can come up with any ideas on how to shape up this community, I’ll get your guys ophinon on this (that is, if anybody here is up to the challenge THIS TIME) and get to work on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5666005)
For emblems, I just need a 100 x 100 picture. So the artistically-minded folks can work on that.

I have GIMP, so I can just modify the pic’s size and such in a snap. Hm, any picture in mind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀ (Post 5666260)
I think that we do need a usergroup for "writers goofing off" and this thread be returned to its original purpose, "writers helping writers with writing". (If that wasn't the original purpose after all, please excuse me and my lateness...) We would be able to organize things a lot easier and still retain the goofiness that emnates from this thread, but it does seem to dominate over most places. I can name plenty of writers who haven't even set foot in this thread - it may be because they've told themselves that they don't need any help with their fanfics, but I think it also may involve the fact that we, as the main question thread, seem to be such a tight-knit group that any newcomers might just be shunned. And I hate to say it, but we sort of have shown that tendency on more than one occasion.

Again, I think usergroups won’t work because those tend to die fastttt. I remember we used to have a fanfic group here long agoooooo, but now I can’t seem to find it. D:


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...As a sub-note, we need moar bold topics. When was the last time we had one of those?
I think that’s one of the problems also with this thread, the bold topics. It seems to be more like, “okay, I answer this, done, “ kind of thing and not a real discussion. I understand part of it is we’re discussing things from our fics that many people haven’t read it. Hm, maybe something along the lines of discuss something someone answered from the bold topics?

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If my computer is still alive by the time this comes to fruition (VIRUSES!! /raeg) then I believe I can help with that.
Oh gawds, you made me do this…


YOU ARE VIRUS! *gets shot a million times*

Okay, back to serious business here…

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And now that the awards have been mentioned: I don't know if they're really going to fly. I mean, yes, they're going just peachy on Serebii, but I think that's because every writer and reviewer sort of lives inside their own thread and pokes at the Authors' Café every so often - there's none of the familiarity we here at PokéCom harbor. Plus, it's got a lot more members, so not everyone voting is as likely to know the writer - or be the writer - of a fic they're nominated for. So to be honest, I like the idea, but right now the community really isn't fit for it.
Agree with you on that. Pretty much Jax’s post there says it all. XD

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And now that we have thaaat subject up, do you all think we ought to move the Reviewing Guide (back?) to the main forum? I mean, it's not like the reviewers either A. enter the Writers' Lounge if they don't write or B. look past the FFL if they do.
Hm, I think it’s a good idea to move the Reviewing Guide to the main forum so that more people see that. However, Jax said she’ll make a couple changes to it.

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Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5666277)
Personally, I don’t know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn’t deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.). Rather, as you may or may not know, I’m a --sort off—busy person who lurks around PC while doing some form of work which means that most of the times I don’t have time to write long, winded replies to certain statements. I don’t post in the main forum as much as I should because, as stated, I’m busy and the only place where I can post a statement measuring at least six lines max without breaking a reviewing rule is the FFL. My outlook is that if I really want to review someone, I set aside some time to do a quality review rather than conjure one up on the spot where it may or may not be of any quality at all.
Anyway, like I said, I don’t know why you guys don’t review as much as you should(though I’m one to talk), but I think that if hat Jax said is true, we might move the FFL to the Main section so that fics and the FFL aren’t separated by a subforum.

Well Astinus mentions she doesn't even care if the review is a sentence as long as you mentioned something about it. Also, to me the thing is I can write reviews quickly if I’m really focus on it, but the problem is I need to sit back and read the story. But yeah, the problem Jax mentions is it seems even though yes we’re busy we could have review a fic instead of keep chatting in the lounge.

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Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time. At least, that’s what I do. Honestly, I don’t think about ‘helping writer’s’ when I review(thought that is a reason although I don’t think about it often). I think about the joys of maintaining a neutral stance while getting to point out mistakes. Humans just love finding fault in others whether subconsciously or consciously so take that to your advantage and remember that every review eases you slowly into the community. (This is aimed at everybody btw.)
Well I think that should be everyone’s reason for reviewing. You’re reviewing to help someone. Not sure about improving your own writing at the same time because you the reviewer and the writer are in different level skills of writing. You have other reviewers to help you improve. Also, when you do point out mistakes though, you better make sure they’re correct.

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Originally posted by Buoysel
My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?
Astinus doesn’t have to be the one mention to this to us. Also, Jax did mentioned about the conversations branching off, but seems none of you notice that. Heck, if I wasn’t away from PC a few days ago, I would have mentioned that.

JX Valentine March 30th, 2010 7:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Giratina ♀ (Post 5666260)
Urk. Who would want to be snarky in a review? Knowing the average amount of spine that most writers have? Just saying...

Yeah, seriously. But some people try. One of them got banned from Serebii, at least.

Moving it is up to you. I originally put it in Writer's Lounge because that's where all the guides were, but if it'll generate more attention, I definitely say yes.

Or alternatively, would it help to have a sticky with links to all the important threads?

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Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5666277)
I’m just interjecting here for a brief moment, but I actually remembered why I advocated the FFOTY contest and the nomination/voting thing. My original plan, before I lost track due to the fact that I was all over the place planning with everyone else was for the FFOTY’s nomination part to be a venue where nominated fics(i.e. the good ones that deserve it) should be reviewed before being voted on. I admit that with everything else going on I kind of forgot that crucial detail and the fact that it doesn’t help those new, struggling writers (which incidentally, I’ve occasionally reviewed and have taken up a position in the beta-thread for that reason).

The argument about the awards isn't just that it won't work because it doesn't help the newbies. The argument is the fact that it won't work because no one in the FFL looks at anything but fics from other FFL members. So, if an experienced writer came through from another writing community but didn't decide to insert themselves into the FFL, the chances of getting exposed won't exactly be fair because the FFL has the funny little habit of not actually responding to threads in the main forum.

Not sure if anyone's actually reading much, but if no one's out there replying, that's usually a good sign that you will either not set a standard or not actually cast a metaphorical net far enough to create enough competition and variety.

And, of course, not helping new authors means you probably won't get enough good fic in the future because which experienced visiting author wants to post their fic in a writing archive where few people (aside from kids who give everyone one-liner responses) review and where the average fic is by someone who has yet to be taught why you need to insert paragraph breaks after every paragraph?

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Yes, but those who used to be avid reviewers now have other responsibilities(like you and your job)
Yes, because I'm sure you and all the other kids who seem to post whenever possible in this thread have no time to write a short paragraph on what you thought of a fic that might take you five minutes to read.

(See, this is why I need to rewrite the reviewing guide.)

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Our FF community isn’t as established as Serebii’s
Our community has been here for years, Mizan. It can be established -- and, in fact, was at one point -- if people actually work on (re)building it.

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Also, to me the main pattern which happens when someone new joins the FFL and is too scared(or isn’t bothered enough) to strongly impose their presence(either by following the flow or challenging norms) then what we have is at least one or two members saying ‘Hi’ and or responding and the rest ignoring that single person. After a while, maybe because said writer feels ignored or something or maybe because he feels as though he can’t really join in the lounge, they leave…
Exactly.

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Like I stated earlier, the awards were initially conceived as a way to get people to read good fiction rather than award fiction for being good.
The side-effect of having the awards is that you encourage writers to conform to the standard you establish. What you describe is essentially the same thing because you're trying to get more people to write good fic so people can nominate the good fic for the awards, and at the same time, you're trying to get people to look at good fic, though those people will need good fic in order for this to work. Long story short, the awards encourage people to write good fic, so in turn, they write the good fic you need to have the awards that will expose potential reviewers to good fic.

Or, in shorter terms, you still can't blow off the fact that you kinda need good reviewers to encourage good fic for you to do this. That and you can't ignore the fact that this will influence what the writers produce, given that this is kinda a popularity contest and all.

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Some reviewers (sorry MW; best example in a short space of time) just don’t do it because they feel that they might be doing something wrong or they’re scared of making the same mistake twice. Again, no offense MW.
*nods* Hence the reviewing guide and the soon-to-be reviewing... review... thread. (I'm still working on the name.)

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Personally, I don’t know about you guys, but the FFL does not suck up all of my time and it doesn’t deviate me from writing or reviewing(in contrast to what I might have said while I was joking around earlier.).
Hence that little bit about more power to you. You, unfortunately, are not the entirety of the FFL. However, at the same time, I'm throwing a virtual baseball at the back of your head for thinking the awards ceremony will work with a community that doesn't review and encourage the good fic you sort of need to run the thing.

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Or you know, take joy in maintaining a neutral stance while correcting people and improving your own writing at the same time.
For some people, you really need to think about puppies.

Or, you know, it could just be a joke, considering the bit about the mantra just before it.

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I don’t get the mouse analogy,
I will one day teach you the way of the metaphor.

The mouse thing comes from this, which refers to a cause-and-effect sort of thing. If you give a mouse a cookie, it will ask for a glass of milk. If you show a newbie reviewer a bunch of reviews by people who sound like they know what they're doing, they will ask to review the same way. Cause and effect.

So, yes, it actually is relevant because most of you are mice.

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Though I’m not sure how you’re going to get people to read the guide seeing as some(and I refer to the writer’s community on PC; you know who you are) have barely even read the rules to begin with.
Again, cause and effect. All I need to do is force it down the throats of the regulars and make sure you know what you're doing. Then, I send you all out and review based on the guide, and the kids will mostly try to emulate you without actually reading the guide. You live by the guide, and others will follow.

There will, of course, be the occasional kiddie who doesn't bother to pay attention and continue to review one-liner sugar bits, but our aim is to get as many people to set a standard for the forum. Once a standard is set, it'll be clear to anyone who comes in how we do things around here, if that makes sense. (I'm slightly distracted here, so if I'm repetitive, sorry.)

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-I always assumed that the Writer’s emblem was given out for a healthy amount of writing and reviewing. Something I’ve been aiming for with my current reviews.
It's for putting your all into your writing. It doesn't necessarily cover reviews.

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-To a certain extent, you can judge how people react based on the current analysis of the community. My guess is that when emblems are thrown out into the crowd, they lose thei value pretty quickly.
Depends on how frequently they're given out. Given how active the emblem thread is in CF&Q, I can safely assume that emblems can be pretty coveted if you set the requirements for it correctly.

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Also, it’s kind of hard to judge reviews since their even more varied than writing.
If we did the NaReWriMo, the point wouldn't be enforcing quality so much as encouraging people to review more frequently. As in, to increase member activity in the main forum instead of just the FFL or Writer's Lounge. We would, of course, enforce certain minimum requirements for a review to count -- like "reviews need to be more than four lines long in a Word document with these specifications, and it must mention at least two specific points and include no filler words."

Of course, we're probably not actually going with the idea (as we've discussed after that point), so this part's rather moot.

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-You mean kind of like the beta-thread, but more open and more of requesting feedback rather than asking for help?
Exactly.

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I’m pretty sure Digi-kun has this kind of thing over at the JE section. ;D Just saying…
And...?

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Ah, but I am working on the awards…
Um, not to be snarky, but you did read the rest of that line, right? I said the awards aren't possible with the community as it is, so we need to focus on more important things at the moment, like increasing member participation and fic quality in the main forum.

As in, that's nice that you're working on the awards, but I'm actually asking people to do the opposite of working on awards at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Buoysel (Post 5666330)
My only complaint is that you should have said something sooner. I'm not trying to be a suck up or anything, but how are we supposed to know we are going too far off topic if no one tells us?

Common sense. A mod can't spend all her time telling you what you can and can't post. You need to exercise common member's judgement and figure out for yourself what relates to writing and what doesn't.

Though it is rather nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks we need to get something done.

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Originally Posted by Bay
Hm, the only thing is that might take up too much work and time. You would have to read though a lot of reviews AND keep track of that member’s review posts. Understandable that it’ll require time and effort to get this place filled with some decent reviews again, but I’m thinking along the lines of something that won’t be as tedious as that.

Good point. I'll toss this idea and try to come up with something else soon. If you come up with something else in the meantime, feel free to submit.

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I also say yes to that.
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Usergroups in PC tends to die…fast. D: However, sticky should be fine.
Awesome. I can probably do the formatting of the review sticky/contacting the kids over at SPPf to let them know we've been inspired by their idea unless you'd like to handle the Serebii diplomacy. I know they sometimes don't like it when you put up something that looks eerily like something they've done.

The review-for-review thread shouldn't be too difficult to create. It probably just needs to have the reviewer's guide set up first.

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Yeah, sounds good. Hm, if I can come up with any ideas on how to shape up this community, I’ll get your guys ophinon on this (that is, if anybody here is up to the challenge THIS TIME) and get to work on it.
That'd be great. We'll definitely be waiting for what you've got to offer, Bay.

Also, I should hope they're up for the challenge. Unless they happen to have some weird fetish or something about getting ripped apart via the internet because if so, I'm going to Serebii.

インフェルノの津波 March 30th, 2010 7:58 PM

Thanks for having me read through your long posts. Ya'll could've made your point smaller.

Meh, I've been on other sites FFing. PC's, I gotta say, is a bit weird. Astinus(SUGGESTION)should probably do what Alter Ego does: Read the FF first, and then allow that person to continue.

I guess she doesn't is either she's too busy, or thinks it isn't nessicary. Oh well.

There seems to be a Flame War going on, correct?

Shrike Flamestar March 30th, 2010 8:09 PM

I just want to say that I'd be in favor of pretty much completely restarting the lounge. Lock and archive this thread and open a brand new one with much better defined rules. Perhaps something where all discussion has to be about writing or such and disallow the general goofing off all together. Maybe open a new thread (or just leave this one for that, whatever) for general talk. Or just force people to, you know, use other parts of the forum such as the DCC and VMs. While forcibly separating the different aspects of the lounge may seem like it would kill the community, well, Serebii doesn't have anything like this lounge. Simply having a general writing discussion thread would already be an improvement over the Serebii-style community while hopefully keeping everything on topic and more approachable for newbies.

As for awards, well, looking over the results on Serebii has pretty much cemented in my mind that even if they are well executed they're still just essentially popularity contests with the most prominent members of the community at that time always winning. Newcomers never really have a chance unless there're categories specifically for newcomers, which just adds to the division between newbies and veterans that the lounge as it is here has created.

Maybe all awards should just die... X_x

txteclipse March 30th, 2010 9:04 PM

I was going to say something about creating a group, but it's already been mentioned and ravaged, so yeah.

In all honesty, I've probably read one fanfic from start to finish in the past year, excluding one-shots. In fact, I can name it. Me and My Flame.

And you know what I just realized? It's probably the only fic during that time period I haven't tried to review. Reviewing simply became drudgery after I had done it for a while, as I felt like I was saying the same things ad nauseum. "I liked this part. This part needed help. Here's grammar mistakes." It pretty much killed the reading experience for me. The only way I can think to remedy that is for me to do epic reviews at the end of a fic (bleagh) or stop reviewing altogether.

So yeah. Seeing as I haven't made it past the first chapter of any fic I've tried to review in a long, long time, I'm going to stop trying to review for a while. Get some actual reading done. Maybe shoot some VMs to people if something really stands out. Make this a bit less of a chore and more fun, which it's supposed to be in the first place, right? I don't know, maybe I'm just not cut out for being a reviewer, or maybe I'm just being a lazy prick, but nothing's getting done either way, and I can't help but not care. I don't know where that leaves me in relation to the fanfiction section, or what it means to anyone, but I do know that I'd like to read and enjoy some writing for the first time in a while. It's time to hit the reset button on my fanfiction experience.

And who knows, maybe if I start reading again for fun I'll toss in a review here and there if I feel up to it. Right now, though...not so much.

JX Valentine March 30th, 2010 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by インフェルノの津波 (Post 5666805)
Meh, I've been on other sites FFing. PC's, I gotta say, is a bit weird. Astinus(SUGGESTION)should probably do what Alter Ego does: Read the FF first, and then allow that person to continue.

You mean set up a moderator queue? The problem with that is that you actually need to have an active mod who's willing to devote a lot of time to filtering out posts, especially if we manage to gain more activity. That's aside from having to figure out just what the standard of fic should be in the first place. Asty's a pretty busy person, so while she's considered in the past if I recall correctly, it's just not practical for her.

Not to mention, yeah, it's not particularly necessary. The number of fics that Asty actually legitimately has to close or delete because they're against one rule or another is pretty low per week, and the rest of the fics that go through here are from people who just need a good helping hand. That is, after all, why you post your story in the first place -- to get feedback on it that will help you out of the newbie writer stage.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

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There seems to be a Flame War going on, correct?
Incorrect. Flaming would be if I outright called you a moron. Being harsh with concrit is me telling you that someone needs a good kick in the pants to get the forum fixed up so we can actually have a functional writing community again. I've been doing the latter, and the rest of you lot are pretty vanilla with your tempers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike Flamestar (Post 5666835)
I just want to say that I'd be in favor of pretty much completely restarting the lounge. Lock and archive this thread and open a brand new one with much better defined rules.

Probably a good idea, too, and it'd be made easier if we go with the idea of locking the current FFL for awhile. That'll give us time to get ourselves ready for the new thread.

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As for awards, well, looking over the results on Serebii has pretty much cemented in my mind that even if they are well executed they're still just essentially popularity contests with the most prominent members of the community at that time always winning. Newcomers never really have a chance unless there're categories specifically for newcomers, which just adds to the division between newbies and veterans that the lounge as it is here has created.
Well, in their defense, this isn't exactly true. If we consider a newbie to be someone who joined within five or six months of the nomination period, about a third of the nominations in Serebii's awards -- including in categories that aren't specifically geared towards newbies -- are actually stories written by newcomers to the board. This includes LampShade, Giratina, DarkScyther, Mrs. Lovett, and yours truly. So, it's actually plausible for a newbie to get nominated even if you aren't a prominent figure of the community, but you'd need to change the way the community works first. In other words, yeah, if you guys really want to have an awards ceremony, sure, go right ahead after we fix the place up a bit.

Of course, either way, you're right about it being a popularity contest, especially during the voting phase.

Edit, @ txt: I honestly don't know where that leaves you, either. While I acknowledge that reading (and reviewing) is meant to be more of a hobby than a chore, I just hope that not everyone is intimidated by reviewing. It's really not that difficult, and it's possible to set up guides we can link to that contain information on the same things over and over again (like a more refined guide to grammar/list of resources where someone might find grammar rules/links to online spell checkers... the whole works). Like I said, I'm not expecting people to rip a fic completely apart. I'm just expecting people to actually go out there and say something if they're going to consider themselves active members of this community instead of just sit in one thread.

In other words, it's fine if you're busy or if you want to ninja the forum, but if anyone else wants to consider themselves active vets, they'll just have to be prepared to actually be active and productive in the entire writing community.

bobandbill March 31st, 2010 10:46 AM

So yeah PC died when I orginally tried to post something aaaaaaaaaa oh well take two.

Eh, I've been dead recently, and haven't much to say to these recent posts and all, besides YES change of that kind sounds most good. I have to agree it's been too...ehh recently here - the memes seem more forced than anything, the off-topic discussion just doesn't get me interested, and there has been a decline I feel. Certainly I feel it is possible to reboot this place to before (and hell even better), but that would involve input/activity from us all (generally speaking), for one-liner reviews which I have seen recently are just...bah (yes you can tell I am not being wordy atm I blame 5am starts).

So let's do it. (Actually I like the fact easter is about - I smell a break that can be used =D). And personally I think it's very possible to do this.

I also like the talks of a reviewer thread, maybe not unlike sppf's as well, but might need more discussion. On restarting this thread... well, sure it's long and could practically apply to be heritage-listed and all, but that may just b the problem with it. And look at the first posts - it doesn't really help. Maybe the sheer size of it even intimidates. And heck, change can be good.

Needless to say I be willing to help out if stuff needs helping out with if time provides. =)
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Heck, the Beta Thread is slowly going. I just told someone today to find a beta, and I'm not sure if there is one around here.
Yes, it is slow to say the least. I remember when it started about 5 applications came about within the first few days? And we're there after over some months after the reboot and sadly a good number of us are caught up in irl stuff or other priorities/already take on a number of clients all over the place. =/ That's one thing some people could add to... well, provided I suppose the aforementioned reviewing standard is improved, but surely there are other people who could apply and help out the community? =P
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Of course, either way, you're right about it being a popularity contest, especially during the voting phase.
What contest isn't, really? XD But yeah, considering some results of mine...well, I'm just whating at things atm. WHAT. See. Like that. Yeah I need sleep darn you uni. >:[

JX Valentine March 31st, 2010 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 5667698)
I also like the talks of a reviewer thread, maybe not unlike sppf's as well, but might need more discussion.

Sure. What did you have in mind (in terms of discussion)?

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Needless to say I be willing to help out if stuff needs helping out with if time provides. =)
Awesome.

Actually, there is something you can probably do right now. Since I'm a lowly newbie over at SPPf who doesn't know the kids in their writing comm that much, could you use your sexy modly swagger over there to chat up Buraado Aipom/the mods and ask them if it's okay if we use something resembling their reviewing thread? They might take you more seriously.

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What contest isn't, really? XD[
My thoughts exactly. XD

Also, while we're on the train of thought for renovations everywhere, what do you guys think about taking this time to revise and consolidate/build the guides for writing and all that fun stuff that we've been meaning to do anyway? This is relevant because it'll be nice to have and point to so reviewers who aren't up for ripping apart fics can just point to a thread and go, "Here. This'll help you." So, it takes a bit of load off the kids who wouldn't normally review because they don't want to do something as time-consuming as rip apart a fic line by line, which means I have more of a reason to boot you in the rear if you get lazy.

Thoughts? If approved, I'll go over the current guides and compile a list of assignments and deadlines for all volunteers. You get vague rewards for it.

Miz en Scène March 31st, 2010 1:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Bay Alexison (Post 5666438)
I have GIMP, so I can just modify the pic’s size and such in a snap. Hm, any picture in mind?

This?
Ignore the fact that it’s my DeviantArt calling card/ID, but would the feather in that pic do? I have the original render(which I made and have the transparent version) and can modify the hues so that you can get different colours. I just need someone else to work on the details and you know general aesthetics of the emblem. The feather as a kind of metaphor for writing.

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Again, I think usergroups won’t work because those tend to die fastttt. I remember we used to have a fanfic group here long agoooooo, but now I can’t seem to find it. D:
I think all groups were reset last year.

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I think that’s one of the problems also with this thread, the bold topics. It seems to be more like, “okay, I answer this, done, “ kind of thing and not a real discussion. I understand part of it is we’re discussing things from our fics that many people haven’t read it. Hm, maybe something along the lines of discuss something someone answered from the bold topics?
I’ve been saying this since early November, but everytime we reached a peak in activity besides bold topics, we slowly degenerated back into one-topic replies.

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Hm, I think it’s a good idea to move the Reviewing Guide to the main forum so that more people see that. However, Jax said she’ll make a couple changes to it.
Seconded. Also up for moving the FFL to the main forum.

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Well Astinus mentions she doesn't even care if the review is a sentence as long as you mentioned something about it. Also, to me the thing is I can write reviews quickly if I’m really focus on it, but the problem is I need to sit back and read the story. But yeah, the problem Jax mentions is it seems even though yes we’re busy we could have review a fic instead of keep chatting in the lounge.
True. Though, sometimes you really do need to point out grammatical mistakes in fics. I seem to have a problem keeping that compact at times because I occasionally always end up correcting everything instead of doing a short review… Apart from that, yeah, I agree.

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5666641)
Or alternatively, would it help to have a sticky with links to all the important threads?

Except that no one would read said thread if we’re relying on current mentality.

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The argument about the awards isn't just that it won't work because it doesn't help the newbies. The argument is the fact that it won't work because no one in the FFL looks at anything but fics from other FFL members. So, if an experienced writer came through from another writing community but didn't decide to insert themselves into the FFL, the chances of getting exposed won't exactly be fair because the FFL has the funny little habit of not actually responding to threads in the main forum.

Not sure if anyone's actually reading much, but if no one's out there replying, that's usually a good sign that you will either not set a standard or not actually cast a metaphorical net far enough to create enough competition and variety.
Chances are that someone from outside the FFL will come along and read them, and if we remove nomination criteria we’d have people from outside the P&W who’d probably be unbiased and might read something other than veteran fics.

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Yes, because I'm sure you and all the other kids who seem to post whenever possible in this thread have no time to write a short paragraph on what you thought of a fic that might take you five minutes to read.
You overestimate some people and the speed at which some people read. To some, the current conversation in the FFL might look as daunting as reading a moderately long fic. Also, you can’t really read just a portion of a fic and review based on that single portion. Sometimes, you really do need to have at least a basic understanding of the storyline in order to do a quality review(plot, characterization and all.).

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Our community has been here for years, Mizan. It can be established -- and, in fact, was at one point -- if people actually work on (re)building it.
It depends on your definition of established, which I see my Malaysian based, English education has failed me again unless of course, it’s not and I’m being stupid. When I say established, I mean that the writer’s don’t just convene at one spot and talk randomly while new writer’s are left in the rain and the Section basically splits in half and neither sides benefit(much). Of course, it’s an oversight in my use of language.

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The side-effect of having the awards is that you encourage writers to conform to the standard you establish. What you describe is essentially the same thing because you're trying to get more people to write good fic so people can nominate the good fic for the awards, and at the same time, you're trying to get people to look at good fic, though those people will need good fic in order for this to work. Long story short, the awards encourage people to write good fic, so in turn, they write the good fic you need to have the awards that will expose potential reviewers to good fic.
True enough…

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Hence that little bit about more power to you. You, unfortunately, are not the entirety of the FFL. However, at the same time, I'm throwing a virtual baseball at the back of your head for thinking the awards ceremony will work with a community that doesn't review and encourage the good fic you sort of need to run the thing.
Thus the use of the word ‘personally’. And with the Easter break, I can hopefully get some reviewing up.

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I will one day teach you the way of the metaphor.

The mouse thing comes from this, which refers to a cause-and-effect sort of thing. If you give a mouse a cookie, it will ask for a glass of milk. If you show a newbie reviewer a bunch of reviews by people who sound like they know what they're doing, they will ask to review the same way. Cause and effect.

So, yes, it actually is relevant because most of you are mice.
I’ve never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you’re referring to. But thanks for sharing the snippet.

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Again, cause and effect. All I need to do is force it down the throats of the regulars and make sure you know what you're doing. Then, I send you all out and review based on the guide, and the kids will mostly try to emulate you without actually reading the guide. You live by the guide, and others will follow.

There will, of course, be the occasional kiddie who doesn't bother to pay attention and continue to review one-liner sugar bits, but our aim is to get as many people to set a standard for the forum. Once a standard is set, it'll be clear to anyone who comes in how we do things around here, if that makes sense. (I'm slightly distracted here, so if I'm repetitive, sorry.)
I suppose so.

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Depends on how frequently they're given out. Given how active the emblem thread is in CF&Q, I can safely assume that emblems can be pretty coveted if you set the requirements for it correctly.
Yes, but in your quote you said ‘for participation’. Anyway, as long as we keep the conditions of the emblem either vague or appropriately high, we might be able to set it as a prize.

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And...?
Notice the end where I said ‘just saying’ which I take it to mean as it being a trivial amount of info. Now that I think about it however, it could also be used as some form of weak reference to what we’re trying to do here though I don’t think it helps much since we already know what to do in theory.

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Um, not to be snarky, but you did read the rest of that line, right? I said the awards aren't possible with the community as it is, so we need to focus on more important things at the moment, like increasing member participation and fic quality in the main forum.
I suppose I wasn’t thinking to clearly at the time.

Anyway, after all that, I’m willing to help start the revolution. Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(

Giratina ♀ March 31st, 2010 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5668290)
Seconded. Also up for moving the FFL to the main forum.

Um, I don't believe that moving the FFL will help at all. This subforum was designed for people interested in writing being able to talk about their concepts - yeah, it's a big version of the FFL but we all saw how well that went. Anyway, if we renovate the FFL and make a new one covering all of those concepts and keeping them in line, and if we move that thread to the main forum, well... I think that the Writers' Lounge would just degenerate even more now that we have a nice, shiny thread to cover everything, and if that happened, why even keep it around?
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Except that no one would read said thread if we’re relying on current mentality.
My mentality might just be off, but why's that?[QUOTE]

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True enough…
Of course, a lot of people could just go, "Oh, hey, awards... yeah, I can't do that." Which brings us to another problem and it's pretty much balanced out.
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And with the Easter break,
I'm on Easter spring break, durp, right now. So I don't know how much I can help you with this all day revolutionfest unless i'm at home.
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I’ve never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you’re referring to. But thanks for sharing the snippet.
I believe it was in reference to some sort of children's book...?

I suppose so.

I suppose I wasn’t thinking to clearly at the time.

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Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(
Well then the answer is simple: Do it this time!

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Also, while we're on the train of thought for renovations everywhere, what do you guys think about taking this time to revise and consolidate/build the guides for writing and all that fun stuff that we've been meaning to do anyway?
This sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure about doing the "community revision derp!" plan that we had set a while back. We'll need to nominate people for being able to write these guides.

JX Valentine March 31st, 2010 4:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5668290)
True. Though, sometimes you really do need to point out grammatical mistakes in fics.

While this is true, it's not necessary to point out the same mistakes over and over again, which would actually take out a lot of bulk in a review and avoid insulting the intelligence of the writer you're reviewing. Just explain it once or point to a grammatical guide that can explain it for you. (It takes two minutes to find a decent guide to grammar via Google and another half a minute to make a link to it in my review.)

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Except that no one would read said thread if we’re relying on current mentality.
Then, we'll just have to find a way to improve that current mentality. Either way, we need stickies – the guides, the rules, and the tools people need (such as our potential review request thread) – so if you believe no one would read something as simple as a library of the most important threads they should check, what would be some way to get people to read them?

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Chances are that someone from outside the FFL will come along and read them, and if we remove nomination criteria we’d have people from outside the P&W who’d probably be unbiased and might read something other than veteran fics.
=|

I really have no doubt people outside the FFL would nominate, but I'm not sure if you've seen the reviewers and kinds of fics out there right now. I mean, really? You've got one-liners praising fics with generic plots, one-dimensional characters, and barely any evidence of proofreading. These are the kids who probably wouldn't dig too far back into the archives. Hence why we need to increase member activity -- to set a standard for what we expect reviewers to look at and do for a writer and to encourage FFL vets to actually connect to the rest of the community.

On top of that, FFL members are the ones trying to run this thing, but a number of the people providing input and considering themselves regulars don't actually go out there and look at fics. In order to run something like that, you do need to actually connect to the rest of the forum.

Furthermore, don't rely on input from people outside this forum. Unless they intend on actually writing or otherwise participating in the forum, it's very rare for someone from elsewhere on PC to care.

Also, if no one pays attention to important threads, would they really pay much attention to an awards thread?

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You overestimate some people and the speed at which some people read. To some, the current conversation in the FFL might look as daunting as reading a moderately long fic. Also, you can’t really read just a portion of a fic and review based on that single portion. Sometimes, you really do need to have at least a basic understanding of the storyline in order to do a quality review(plot, characterization and all.).
Mizan. There are people here who spend all their time in the FFL. You can devote a small portion of that time to reviewing. Moreover, most of the fics around here are actually sort of short, and as I've said, it doesn't actually take that much effort to write a short paragraph about something in the story.

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It depends on your definition of established,
A community where people actually talked about writing and where people actually read and reviewed fics. We had an MotM system for awhile, and when Asty rose to power, we still had writing games and active threads in Writer's Lounge about a variety of writing-related topics.

So, yes, we had an established community. And then, somewhere along the line, the FFL kinda went south.

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I’ve never seen that and a metaphor only works if you know what you’re referring to.
A metaphor works when you compare one thing to another. On top of that, I would assume it's pretty easy to figure out what I was trying to say, even if you didn't get the reference. (As in, my point was if you give a newbie a good review, they'd emulate it.)

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Notice the end where I said ‘just saying’ which I take it to mean as it being a trivial amount of info.
Mizan, here's why I get really annoyed at you while talking to you on the FFL. You bring up points that have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the discussion except because you can bring them up. This is not constructive, and really, unless you're suggesting to use it as a template for a format, it's unlikely that it'll actually be helpful to improving the FFL.

Long story short, that's nice, Mizan, but in the future, please only offer input that's going to help what we're doing.

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Anyway, after all that, I’m willing to help start the revolution. Incidentally, we tried one a few months ago(if memory serves) and failed… :(
That's because you didn't have someone who was willing to ride your ass into getting something done. Trust me. Once I get some feedback on what needs to be done – for those other guides, for what our strategy will be for increasing member activity, what have you – a thread of jobs will be organized for people to volunteer for, deadlines will be established, and kittens will be on standby to be drawn and quartered for anyone who waltzes out on whatever duties they decide to take up.

Edit, @ Giratina:

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This sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure about doing the "community revision derp!" plan that we had set a while back. We'll need to nominate people for being able to write these guides.
Very good point. First, what guides need to be revised? Second, how should we do this? Have someone take on writing the basics and have people add to what they've suggested or have one person knowledgeable in the subject write the entire guide for us to review after they're done?

Also, would anyone object to using Google Docs for this?

Miz en Scène March 31st, 2010 4:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5668902)
While this is true, it's not necessary to point out the same mistakes over and over again, which would actually take out a lot of bulk in a review and avoid insulting the intelligence of the writer you're reviewing. Just explain it once or point to a grammatical guide that can explain it for you. (It takes two minutes to find a decent guide to grammar via Google and another half a minute to make a link to it in my review.)




=|

I really have no doubt people outside the FFL would nominate, but I'm not sure if you've seen the reviewers and kinds of fics out there right now. I mean, really? You've got one-liners praising fics with generic plots, one-dimensional characters, and barely any evidence of proofreading. These are the kids who probably wouldn't dig too far back into the archives. Hence why we need to increase member activity -- to set a standard for what we expect reviewers to look at and do for a writer and to encourage FFL vets to actually connect to the rest of the community.

On top of that, FFL members are the ones trying to run this thing, but a number of the people providing input and considering themselves regulars don't actually go out there and look at fics. In order to run something like that, you do need to actually connect to the rest of the forum.

Furthermore, don't rely on input from people outside this forum. Unless they intend on actually writing or otherwise participating in the forum, it's very rare for someone from elsewhere on PC to care.

Also, if no one pays attention to important threads, would they really pay much attention to an awards thread?



Mizan. There are people here who spend all their time in the FFL. You can devote a small portion of that time to reviewing. Moreover, most of the fics around here are actually sort of short, and as I've said, it doesn't actually take that much effort to write a short paragraph about something in the story.

Because I'd rather not spend my time arguing and the fact that your logic is irrefutable, I agree.

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A metaphor works when you compare one thing to another. On top of that, I would assume it's pretty easy to figure out what I was trying to say, even if you didn't get the reference. (As in, my point was if you give a newbie a good review, they'd emulate it.)
No, I understood the metaphor. I just didn't get what mice had to do with it that's all.

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Mizan, here's why I get really annoyed at you while talking to you on the FFL. You bring up points that have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the discussion except because you can bring them up. This is not constructive, and really, unless you're suggesting to use it as a template for a format, it's unlikely that it'll actually be helpful to improving the FFL.
It's an annoying quirk of mine so I apologize.


Anyway, my input to the current discussion is that maybe, asides from the Reviewing Guide, we can actually have some form of practice for budding reviewers? As in, where we could have a badfic(purposely written) that we could use as a review practice alongside another where we could have possible answers. Kind of like having a maths paper where there are all these possible ways of working out the answer, but there being only one solution. In essence, I'm suggesting a worksheet with answers for anyone who's interested in doing them since knowing theory doesn't always imply practical use.

Breezy March 31st, 2010 6:44 PM

YEARLY BREEZY POST ON PC ALERT! It probs has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'ma just say it's a general response to ... whatever is being discussed. Sorry if I repeated points. D:

As a somewhat outsider looking in, I can sympathize with the new author trying to post here (the FFL). Conversation here goes a mile a minute, and it is hard to keep up (I looked at this thread around noon and had several more essays here once I came back seven hours later), and while the community is obviously tight-knit and friendly, it does seem intimidating as a new author to try to make a name for himself in this thread. Unlike other forums, where reviewing other stories is key to getting your name out there, this forum seems to rely strongly on the FFL in order for your name to get noticed. But it's circular. "How am I suppose to join the conversation if I feel like everyone is too tight-knit and close? But then again, I know that if I don't become part of the pack, then my story will probably never take flight. I could try reviewing other stories but rarely anyone from FFL (the veterans) actually ventures outside the FFL and his/her own stories. So now what?"

A lot of this does have to do with the memes and the inside jokes you guys have, and while I'm all up for jokes (and in fact promote it as it makes the community much more laid back and enjoyable), there still need to be some sort of objective writer element that anyone can discuss, new or veteran. I know you guys are friendly and would be friendly if a newborn lamb (puppy?) stumbled in here. I had a point with this paragraph. I just don't remember what. I guess just to say that you lot are nice? XD

The FFL is pretty much "general writing discussion" right? That is a lot. Have you guys considered making moar stickies to the thirty you already have for topics that commonly come up? For example, a Fic Ideas sticky would probably be helpful for a new kid because

A) he won't have to randomly break up the current conversation in the FFL
B) he won't feel intimidated because each few posts is generally a new topic
C) it'll stop spamming the FFL and the Writer's Lounge forum
D) PIE

The bold topics in FFL is a great idea as it gives the new kid something to say without having to talk about random joke/discussion that he knows nothing about, but like someone else says, it's mostly "I'll answer with one line then continue on" rather than an actual in-depth discussion, not unless someone gets all hot and bothered (and not in the good way) over it. When you create new threads based on one subject, people tend to discuss it more thoroughly. So perhaps creating a new thread for in depth discussion would bring in the scared people that are afraid of posting in FFL. Example: a thread discussing pokemon-centric stories. Of course, this might seem ... useless as the only people that would post in that thread would probably be, well, you guys, so you want to try to bring the two worlds (the newbies and veterans) together under one topic on occasion. Something like "What inspired you to write pokemon fanfiction?" or "What's your favorite canon to use?"

I'm all up for revising your "how to review" thread and creating a "review of a review" thread, but you have to note that not many a newbie is going to want to read it. Mostly because the thread right now is long as hell (no one keel me plz) and because it is a lot to digest for a beginner. I feel it's more framed toward "the reviewer who wants to expand further on his review technique" rather than a reviewer who is just starting out.

So, yeah. This is where you veteran reviewers really need to get out into the main forum and set an example. New reviewers mimic a style that is commonly seen. If I can make a SPPf analogy, take the Yami Ryu situation. There were threads that complained about her style, stickies created in order to counter her review style, but because Yami's style was the most dominant, then more new reviewers tried to emulate it. And if this reviewers wants to expand on his knowledge, that is when he'll head into the "how to review" thread.

(Not unless you plan on creating a bare bones review thread as well that is framed toward the starting reviewer. And even then, pshh, is new reviewer going to want to read that?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro
Anyway, my input to the current discussion is that maybe, asides from the Reviewing Guide, we can actually have some form of practice for budding reviewers? As in, where we could have a badfic(purposely written) that we could use as a review practice alongside another where we could have possible answers. Kind of like having a maths paper where there are all these possible ways of working out the answer, but there being only one solution. In essence, I'm suggesting a worksheet with answers for anyone who's interested in doing them since knowing theory doesn't always imply practical use.

Cute in theory, but I'm not sure how you can have definite answers for something like this as reviewing is mostly subjective besides grammar (because we all know reviews are more than just checking for a kid's grammar, right? And if we are just doing a grammar check review, we are explaining how to fix this error, right? So error will happen less often, right?) Especially when you come to more "advanced stories" where there aren't as many mechanical errors like grammar and obvious one-dimensioned characters. A response in these type of stories more about how the reviewer feels about a certain area. Something that might trouble one reviewer might not trouble another. I understand it is hard to review for these type of stories because there isn't anything concrete. So I'm all up for that "hell, say something that you at least liked!" line. lulz.

This is, like, twenty times longer than I wanted it to be. Whoops.

Miz en Scène April 1st, 2010 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breezy (Post 5669364)
Cute in theory, but I'm not sure how you can have definite answers for something like this as reviewing is mostly subjective besides grammar (because we all know reviews are more than just checking for a kid's grammar, right? And if we are just doing a grammar check review, we are explaining how to fix this error, right? So error will happen less often, right?) Especially when you come to more "advanced stories" where there aren't as many mechanical errors like grammar and obvious one-dimensioned characters. A response in these type of stories more about how the reviewer feels about a certain area. Something that might trouble one reviewer might not trouble another. I understand it is hard to review for these type of stories because there isn't anything concrete. So I'm all up for that "hell, say something that you at least liked!" line. lulz.

Like I said 'possible answers'. You shouldn't take the maths paper analogy because that only has one definite answer(most of the times when it isn't referring to variable range). Anyway, if I wasn't making myself clear, what I meant was a possible question paper in which you might try to review said question without making a fool of yourself if you're one of those people that feel scared to review in case you make mistakes. The answer sheet need not be definite in terms of characterization, but only show all grammatical corrections, possible alternatives to language use, and ways to make one-sided characters a lot more livelier. So yeah, an essay answer key need not be definite, but only need to show most of the definite grammatical answers and some others as stated above. If you get more than what's stated, good for you.

Furthermore, the exercise is only meant as a sort of stepping stone so you know what you're dealing with before actually doing it. It doesn't have to give an example of every type of fic and how to review different kinds of characters and plots.

JX Valentine April 2nd, 2010 12:15 PM

Apologies for how long it took me to get back to people here.

Anyway, a couple of things in response to the outsiders coming in:

1. Thanks so much for your input. We actually need you guys to speak up a bit more so it's a bit clearer to the vets that, yeah, something's gotta give.

2. Yeah, I know the posts about this are long. There's a lot to cover, and it's difficult to condense everything into a short little bit. Please don't refer to these posts as "essays," and please don't tl;dr the conversation.

3. Yeah, the original reviewer guide wasn't geared towards newbie reviewers for exactly the reason Breezy pointed out: because it's unlikely newbies would read stickies in the first place. (Hell, they sometimes don't even read PC rules.) Hence, it's more for the people who already started reviewing or writing in the forum, think they're regulars/vets/know better than everyone else, and need a slap in the face and a point towards what they're most likely doing wrong. I'm hoping that the revision will condense all the posts and recategorize everything so, for example, all the stuff aimed towards the reviewers will be in one post that covers everything (with less snark, self-congratulatory attitudes, and repetitiveness) while all the stuff towards the writers will go in a second post. I haven't really thought of creating a bare-bones guide for newbie reviewers for exactly the reason Breezy pointed out again (that newbies might not read stickies), but if people think they're needed, we could give it a shot.

That in mind, an organized post of what needs to be done and addressed. ...'Cause hell if I can keep anything straight myself at the moment.


Ongoing Problems
(Please submit feedback and suggestions for this.)

1. Stickies. People may or may not read them, and a lot of people certainly don't follow them. It's been stated over and over again "people don't read this stuff," but obviously, we need stickies to help run the community. What are ways to get people to read what they're supposed to read?

2. Activity. What are some incentives/reviewing-related challenges that could help encourage members to be active?


Guides/Threads To Be Made

1. Reviewing guide. (Working on this one myself. Don't worry about it.)

2. Reviewing-reviews thread. This is mainly a discussion thread between reviewers to check for reviewing basics. As in, it'll be a place where reviewers can ask things like "Is my review too harsh?" and "If I did it like this, will my review be too confusing?" and "I want to write paragraph-long reviews, but is this kind of review too vague?" and "How do I deal with a hostile writer?" I've thought about Mizan's suggestion of writing a badfic example for us to test ourselves with, and it's an interesting idea so long as it's made absolutely clear that everyone's got a personal style and that it's not necessary for one reviewer to do things like rip a fic apart line by line. (That's why writing communities depend on having multiple reviewers.)

3. Reviewer request thread. Will need an OK from Serebii to either use their thread as a template or say that we were inspired to do something like it and then create a system completely from scratch.

4. Grammar guide. The one we have now only really covers commas, semicolons, homophones, and quotations, so it's basically pretty incomplete. Not to mention there's no table of contents, so it's a bit difficult to find everything. Either we need to complete it, or we simply need a resources thread that includes reliable grammar guides housed elsewhere on the 'net.

5. what is this I don't even. Yeah, uh, I'm not sure what exactly this guide is supposed to be for. The very basics? I mean, it covers how to get started on a fic (which seems a little unnecessary... though we seem to have that question pop up now and then from kids who just want to say they're going to be writing), guides to description, an incomplete list of genres/stereotypes, bits on characterization... It's a bit of a mess, and anyway, it's outdated and/or just headdesk worthy. (A guide to thesaurus abuse? Really, guys? Really?) I'm thinking we get rid of this guide altogether, although there's bits I'm sure we might be able to salvage. Should we have a guide to characterization? One for description, maybe? The genres/story ideas thing can really go into the next thread idea, which is...

6. Plot bunny farm. Breezy suggested it. I like it because it gives people a place to talk about their fic ideas. Let's face it. Everyone likes doing that. We can even throw in a "if you need help coming up with ideas, here's some common genres" bit somewhere in there.

7. New FFL. I'm not sure how much we can split apart the FFL. Breezy's got a point with the bold topics, although it would be nice if we actually did things the way we used to and actually commented on each other's responses. Meanwhile, the randomness can go to VMs or a usergroup (the latter of which anyone can volunteer to create), and I guess she was saying the in-depth discussions could go to separate threads? For example, "I need to know this for research purposes; does anyone have an answer" kind of threads and "does this character sound interesting" kinds of threads and whatever else that would require more than a few posts of discussion. We don't even necessarily have to make those ones stickies, either, because that's kinda what the Writer's Lounge is for in the first place.

Long story short, FFL = for bold topics AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS/shorter conversations about writing (without repeating bold topics – link to solvino's thread, perhaps, or a completely new index attached to the first post of the thread?); other threads in WL = for in-depth conversations about writing-related stuff. Y/N?


Okay, so those are the ideas so far (unless I missed one on my skim-through). Break them down, discuss them, and add to them/suggest away to shape them up. Once we've got finished concepts, I'll post a new list in about a week full of jobs people can snap up and deadlines for when I expect all of you to be done with your tasks. And if you guys haven't figured things out in one full week from today, I'm leaving angry ninja kittens in the beds of anyone who lets the discussion die. Sound good?


Other Things To Work On

1. Emblems. Giratina and Buoysel, you both volunteered. We need one for being an active, helpful reviewer at the very least. (If we ever manage to come up with challenges for reviewing, I'll add that to your cart.) Since it's a 100 x 100 icon, it shouldn't be too difficult to manage, so how about a week from today to find a suitable image and make it? Figure out which one of you is doing it and submit your work to Asty to get it uploaded and ready.

Also, should we have something special for anyone who writes a guide/submits an idea we actually use in this little revitalization project of ours?

Esper April 2nd, 2010 1:14 PM

Hello. Outsider here. Have lurked this thread a couple of times. Just want to put in my two cents on your makeover plans.

The game development areas of PC have all the new hacks start in one board and when they've developed enough get bumped to a showcase board. Could something similar be done here? I know its apples and oranges and I can see the immediate disadvantages of having an area for "good" writers and "bad" writers, but it would give new writers something to strive for. It could encourage writers to get better.

FYI, I don't spend a lot of time in the game development boards so I'm not entirely sure how something moves from the beginner's board to the established game-maker's board, but I assume there is some kind of final decision made by a mod. It sounds heavy-handed, but it seems to work for them.

JX Valentine April 2nd, 2010 1:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarf (Post 5675007)
The game development areas of PC have all the new hacks start in one board and when they've developed enough get bumped to a showcase board. Could something similar be done here? I know its apples and oranges and I can see the immediate disadvantages of having an area for "good" writers and "bad" writers, but it would give new writers something to strive for. It could encourage writers to get better.

We actually used to have something like this (which is still around but never used anymore), but we phased out the usage of it because it just didn't really work that well for a fanfic community. The reason why is because the entire main forum is for the development of a fic.

*shrug* My personal opinion -- which might not reflect what Astinus says about it -- is that the entire good/bad area of fanfiction is a bit fuzzy. Sure, you might rape grammar, but you might also have a really cool plot. Likewise, you might have perfect grammar, but your plot might suck warm sick through a short straw. So, just having all fics in one place make it easier, in part so Asty doesn't have to move stuff she thinks is ready to be put into a showcase, in part to avoid making a handful of us sound elitist, and in part so everyone can help each other refine whatever it is the story's lacking.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Breezy April 2nd, 2010 2:30 PM

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine
Meanwhile, the randomness can go to VMs or a usergroup (the latter of which anyone can volunteer to create), and I guess she was saying the in-depth discussions could go to separate threads? For example, "I need to know this for research purposes; does anyone have an answer" kind of threads and "does this character sound interesting" kinds of threads and whatever else that would require more than a few posts of discussion.

The "separate threads" idea was so people would centralize around one idea, avoiding that "one answer, move on" thing that happened in FFL. If the bold topic question-answers actually went through a back and forth discussion, then you wouldn't need to make separate threads for certain topics. It would also drastically slow down the bursts of topic changes that I noticed the last time I visited here. I'm not saying you have to stay on one topic for one week--hell, one day, even--but it would give someone who had not visited in a few hours some more breathing room and less topics to respond to.

I don't know. My main concern with the FFL with how fast it went through writing topics and quickly went to off-topic things, which really overwhelmed me. It is why I also suggested creating new stickies, like a plot bunny farm, so everything isn't grouped together in one lump and would make new people who are afraid of joining FFL a place to let their voice be heard by the veterans who would (hopefully) read those stickies.

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1. Stickies. People may or may not read them, and a lot of people certainly don't follow them. It's been stated over and over again "people don't read this stuff," but obviously, we need stickies to help run the community. What are ways to get people to read what they're supposed to read?
Veteran interest. Having someone experienced take interest in a new writer's story, help the new author and shamelessly plug those stickies really does encourage a new writer to look at other sources to improve his/herself. It also helps if the experienced reviewer/writer knows the sticky well so he/she can apply what is in that thread in their response. If someone told me "All this information is in this sticky here" and left it at that, I probably wouldn't be too interested in reading in it.

Like a sampler, I guess.

You could try bribery, too. Or threats.

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2. Activity. What are some incentives/reviewing-related challenges that could help encourage members to be active?
I'm not sure about this community, but most communities get excited for fic competitions. I know you guys had something like this (7k challenge, right?) How did that go? Was it the same people in FFL participating, or did new members/outsiders try? The problem with these contests is whether or not you have volunteers willing to read a good amount of fic.

SPPf had a "dozen review" challenge where each participants had to submit twelve reviews to any story of their choosing on a certain date. This was mostly created for authors who received little to no reviews, though.

Shrike Flamestar April 2nd, 2010 3:23 PM

Yeah, we've had some competitions here. The most prominent in recent memory were the 7 Day 7k challenge (write 7000 words in one week, inspired by NaNoWriMo) and the Small Writing Contest we had for the PC anniversary event last year. SWC had a fairly decent turn out and did have prizes in the form of emblems (you can check mine to see :D). 7d7k, however, didn't have that great an interest in it past the first couple of rounds which led to its death. It also did not have any rewards or even ranking, it was solely a challenge to see if you could do it. While that's far too little data to form a conclusion from, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that more people are interested in competitions where the results are actually judged and rewarded. Also, 7k words in one week isn't easy while I don't believe the SWC had any minimum length requirement, its the main pressure being the three day time limit which was more inviting for newbies who typically write too fast anyway (I remember when I was pumping out chapters every other day).

Then there were also the forum games such as the Exquisite Corpse where people signed up, an order was determined randomly, and each person wrote one page (with the exception of the last person who could write as much as needed for a "proper" conclusion) with their sole knowledge of the previous page being its final sentence. Pretty fun and completely random. Again though, it was just for fun with no incentives to play.

And yes, for both 7d7k and the Corpse it was by large mostly the lounge regulars (or people who weren't regulars then but can be considered regulars now) who joined. One reason for this besides the before mentioned lack of incentives is probably that they were only posted in the Writer's Lounge subforum and not the main forum. By contrast, the SWC was posted along with all the games for the anniversary event in its own special forum broadening its exposure.

Finally, there was probably a snowball effect going on with games such as the corpse, where newbies saw all the regulars joining in and were too shy or such to try it out themselves. The more regulars and veterans joined, the less inclined newbies were to potentially embarrass themselves.

I'd love to see such contests and games return as I loved them and both 7d7k and SWC spawned one/two shots of mine that are arguably more popular than my main chaptered fics. They're not just a fine pastime; they're also good for practice, popularity, and ego boosting! :D

If we do repeat them, I suggest that they be posted about as a sticky in the main forum so more people can see it, as well as small prizes like emblems being handed out for them. Like with the 7d7k, maybe give people who have managed to do it an emblem saying they did. A sort of "I survived the 7 Day 7k challenge!" thing. Writing contests like the SWC would also be good to have once in a while however not too often. Again, hand out reward emblems to everyone who participates and not just the winners. More incentives will just mean more people participating!

So I think we've talked about all this long enough, any plans to actually get started on this renewal anytime soon?

Miz en Scène April 2nd, 2010 3:35 PM

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5674828)
1. Stickies. People may or may not read them, and a lot of people certainly don't follow them. It's been stated over and over again "people don't read this stuff," but obviously, we need stickies to help run the community. What are ways to get people to read what they're supposed to read?

That’s a problem every forum gets --I think(not reading stickied rules I mean), and there’s really no soft solution(as of yet; maybe you guys can come up with one?) that I can think of at the moment. However, there is one method, which I feel is a tad extreme, in which infractions are handed out per-offense from not reading or trying to understand the rules set forth in the stickies. While I’m unsure on the feasibility on this plan, the basic outline is:
  1. Set a PC Announcement thing exclusive to the F&W section that warns new members to read the rules before posting lest suffer a 2 point 2 week infraction.
  2. Clarify PC rules on fic responses(i.e. clearly differentiate in between a critical response and a one-liner / clearly differentiate in between blatantly not using a spell-check and harmless typos)
  3. Hand out infractions to posts in the F&W section that have obviously originated from not reading the rules.
Yeah, basically a threat actually… Though, this only works for the ‘rules thread’ because people who post short, but critical reviews that are wrongly done (as a result from not reading the Reviewers Guide) can’t really be punished for negligence because how badly is done is really subjective. Though if it’s obvious that it’s Spam then said infraction can take place.

For reading reviewing threads, maybe PM’s can be sent to the posters of wrongly written reviewers to read the guides before posting reviews again.

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2. Activity. What are some incentives/reviewing-related challenges that could help encourage members to be active?
This is an idea that came to me while I was writing, but what if a commendation thread could be made in the main forum in which the most avid reviewers are showcased and statistics are updated per month? To clarify, the thread would list down the authors who have at least done three reviews per month since the inception of the ‘Wall of Reviewers’ and rank them in accordance with RpM (Reviews per Month). As an added incentive, besides having your name displayed in an obviously extravagant fashion, the reviewers who manage to maintain a 10 RpM average for three months can be awarded with a ranked reviewers emblem. By ranked I mean, that having a 10 RpM average for three months may qualify said member for a Bronze Reviewers emblem; six months may qualify said member for a Silver Emblem; one year for a Gold emblem; and a Platinum/Crystal Emblem as viewed by Moderator discretion. The Platinum one may be awarded due to review qualities being of a high quality and not just a five line critical review outlining basic grammar mistakes and or simple things that may have been missed. This also means that if Astinus feels that your past seven or so reviews have been amazing, regardless of whether or not you have a bronze, silver or gold emblem, you qualify for a platinum. Obviously, this would make the three lower ones look cheap in comparison, but hey, at least they’re emblems. (Uncertain element: Should emblems of previous rank be removed once you qualify for the next rank? Should Platinum ones be awarded without the removal of the three ranks? --As in, can you have a silver and platinum emblem simultaneously)

Also, to make it easier, we could post in that thread, or another thread in the Writer’s Lounge, reporting on what reviews we’ve done and links to said reviews so that the list can be updated easily. To further simplify the process, you must request for the ranked emblems(not the Platinum emblem) so that Astinus doesn’t have a hard time scouting out potential receivers. Kind of like a Review Announcement Thread...
Edit: To make it easier on those that have done plenty of reviews before this, reviews posted for consideration in the thread should be calculated from the first review that the member wants to show to the current. This means that if A posted a link in the announcement thread saying that he did a review in Sep '08, his RpM should be calculated from Sep '08 onwards. Likewise, if B posts a link in the thread Apr '10, his RpM should be calculated from that point and his reviews before that disregarded to avoid complications.

Undoubtedly, it's going to take a hell of a lot of work...
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2. Reviewing-reviews thread. This is mainly a discussion thread between reviewers to check for reviewing basics. As in, it'll be a place where reviewers can ask things like "Is my review too harsh?" and "If I did it like this, will my review be too confusing?" and "I want to write paragraph-long reviews, but is this kind of review too vague?" and "How do I deal with a hostile writer?" I've thought about Mizan's suggestion of writing a badfic example for us to test ourselves with, and it's an interesting idea so long as it's made absolutely clear that everyone's got a personal style and that it's not necessary for one reviewer to do things like rip a fic apart line by line. (That's why writing communities depend on having multiple reviewers.)
I’d be willing to do the badfic examples, but obviously I can’t cover all the common grammar mistakes a writer might make (eg Lays vs. Lies and To vs. Too). Maybe we can each submit a badfic and an answer key which we can then compile alongside the resources for writers section?

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6. Plot bunny farm. Breezy suggested it. I like it because it gives people a place to talk about their fic ideas. Let's face it. Everyone likes doing that. We can even throw in a "if you need help coming up with ideas, here's some common genres" bit somewhere in there.
This idea, I’m not so keen on because of the procrastinatory and selfish nature of some people, members don’t always like discussing plot bunnies because they feel that they can put it off and maybe do it sometime later. Some people are also reluctant to share dead-end ideas because they feel that they might be able to expand on it more. Anyway, this is only my hypothesis and to truly understand what went wrong with the previous farm, a thorough study needs to be undertaken.

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Also, should we have something special for anyone who writes a guide/submits an idea we actually use in this little revitalization project of ours?
Wall of Fame or Plaque displayed in some relevant thread to display the members who took part in the F&W Revitalization project. A graphics Placque (done properly) since this is really a one-time large-scale effort to create the framework of the F&W which we might use for years to come… My two-cents…

Bay April 2nd, 2010 8:33 PM

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Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5674828)
1. Stickies. People may or may not read them, and a lot of people certainly don't follow them. It's been stated over and over again "people don't read this stuff," but obviously, we need stickies to help run the community. What are ways to get people to read what they're supposed to read?

An eye-catching title. D: Seriously, people tend to go to threads with great titles (if fanfic) or random (like the Other Voting Polls section). Other than that, can't think of anything at the moment. >.>

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2. Activity. What are some incentives/reviewing-related challenges that could help encourage members to be active?
Hm, like Shrike, we should do one shot contests, like the SWC thing last year. Maybe a few new writers might want to try at a few of them?

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2. Reviewing-reviews thread. This is mainly a discussion thread between reviewers to check for reviewing basics. As in, it'll be a place where reviewers can ask things like "Is my review too harsh?" and "If I did it like this, will my review be too confusing?" and "I want to write paragraph-long reviews, but is this kind of review too vague?" and "How do I deal with a hostile writer?" I've thought about Mizan's suggestion of writing a badfic example for us to test ourselves with, and it's an interesting idea so long as it's made absolutely clear that everyone's got a personal style and that it's not necessary for one reviewer to do things like rip a fic apart line by line. (That's why writing communities depend on having multiple reviewers.)
Sounds good to me.

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3. Reviewer request thread. Will need an OK from Serebii to either use their thread as a template or say that we were inspired to do something like it and then create a system completely from scratch.
Sounds good too. After you get the okay, would you need help making the reviewer request thread? I can help you with that.

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4. Grammar guide. The one we have now only really covers commas, semicolons, homophones, and quotations, so it's basically pretty incomplete. Not to mention there's no table of contents, so it's a bit difficult to find everything. Either we need to complete it, or we simply need a resources thread that includes reliable grammar guides housed elsewhere on the 'net.
We can complete it and then we can also put some resources if they want more info on a particular part in the grammar guide. Maybe talk about tenses and awkward sentences, or is that too advanced?

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5. what is this I don't even. Yeah, uh, I'm not sure what exactly this guide is supposed to be for. The very basics? I mean, it covers how to get started on a fic (which seems a little unnecessary... though we seem to have that question pop up now and then from kids who just want to say they're going to be writing), guides to description, an incomplete list of genres/stereotypes, bits on characterization... It's a bit of a mess, and anyway, it's outdated and/or just headdesk worthy. (A guide to thesaurus abuse? Really, guys? Really?) I'm thinking we get rid of this guide altogether, although there's bits I'm sure we might be able to salvage. Should we have a guide to characterization? One for description, maybe? The genres/story ideas thing can really go into the next thread idea, which is...
Description yes because it would be something for the new writers to look at if they have trouble with writing description. Guide on characterization...that's going to be a harder thing to pull. I don't know, but too me it's better if the reviewer just explains if the character is developed enough and such.

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6. Plot bunny farm. Breezy suggested it. I like it because it gives people a place to talk about their fic ideas. Let's face it. Everyone likes doing that. We can even throw in a "if you need help coming up with ideas, here's some common genres" bit somewhere in there.
Didn't we do a plot bunny farm before but it failed? I guess we can do a redux version or something.
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7. New FFL. I'm not sure how much we can split apart the FFL. Breezy's got a point with the bold topics, although it would be nice if we actually did things the way we used to and actually commented on each other's responses. Meanwhile, the randomness can go to VMs or a usergroup (the latter of which anyone can volunteer to create), and I guess she was saying the in-depth discussions could go to separate threads? For example, "I need to know this for research purposes; does anyone have an answer" kind of threads and "does this character sound interesting" kinds of threads and whatever else that would require more than a few posts of discussion. We don't even necessarily have to make those ones stickies, either, because that's kinda what the Writer's Lounge is for in the first place.

Long story short, FFL = for bold topics AND DISCUSSIONS ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS/shorter conversations about writing (without repeating bold topics – link to solvino's thread, perhaps, or a completely new index attached to the first post of the thread?); other threads in WL = for in-depth conversations about writing-related stuff. Y/N?
Hm, not so sure having two lounges. Maybe just have a redux version of the FFL, but a few rules like the DDC. So yeah, new FFL with bold topics, discussions about the answers, and more in-depth conversations about writing related stuff.



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]Also, should we have something special for anyone who writes a guide/submits an idea we actually use in this little revitalization project of ours?
I like that idea. Motivation, you know? :P But in all seriousness though, doing this for the community is enough satisfaction for me. :3


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Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5675460)
That’s a problem every forum gets --I think(not reading stickied rules I mean), and there’s really no soft solution(as of yet; maybe you guys can come up with one?) that I can think of at the moment. However, there is one method, which I feel is a tad extreme, in which infractions are handed out per-offense from not reading or trying to understand the rules set forth in the stickies. While I’m unsure on the feasibility on this plan, the basic outline is:
  1. Set a PC Announcement thing exclusive to the F&W section that warns new members to read the rules before posting lest suffer a 2 point 2 week infraction.
  2. Clarify PC rules on fic responses(i.e. clearly differentiate in between a critical response and a one-liner / clearly differentiate in between blatantly not using a spell-check and harmless typos)
  3. Hand out infractions to posts in the F&W section that have obviously originated from not reading the rules.
Yeah, basically a threat actually… Though, this only works for the ‘rules thread’ because people who post short, but critical reviews that are wrongly done (as a result from not reading the Reviewers Guide) can’t really be punished for negligence because how badly is done is really subjective. Though if it’s obvious that it’s Spam then said infraction can take place.

For reading reviewing threads, maybe PM’s can be sent to the posters of wrongly written reviewers to read the guides before posting reviews again.

I don't think threats would be a good idea. If anything, that'll make them want to review even less.

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This is an idea that came to me while I was writing, but what if a commendation thread could be made in the main forum in which the most avid reviewers are showcased and statistics are updated per month? To clarify, the thread would list down the authors who have at least done three reviews per month since the inception of the ‘Wall of Reviewers’ and rank them in accordance with RpM (Reviews per Month). As an added incentive, besides having your name displayed in an obviously extravagant fashion, the reviewers who manage to maintain a 10 RpM average for three months can be awarded with a ranked reviewers emblem. By ranked I mean, that having a 10 RpM average for three months may qualify said member for a Bronze Reviewers emblem; six months may qualify said member for a Silver Emblem; one year for a Gold emblem; and a Platinum/Crystal Emblem as viewed by Moderator discretion. The Platinum one may be awarded due to review qualities being of a high quality and not just a five line critical review outlining basic grammar mistakes and or simple things that may have been missed. This also means that if Astinus feels that your past seven or so reviews have been amazing, regardless of whether or not you have a bronze, silver or gold emblem, you qualify for a platinum. Obviously, this would make the three lower ones look cheap in comparison, but hey, at least they’re emblems. (Uncertain element: Should emblems of previous rank be removed once you qualify for the next rank? Should Platinum ones be awarded without the removal of the three ranks? --As in, can you have a silver and platinum emblem simultaneously)

Also, to make it easier, we could post in that thread, or another thread in the Writer’s Lounge, reporting on what reviews we’ve done and links to said reviews so that the list can be updated easily. To further simplify the process, you must request for the ranked emblems(not the Platinum emblem) so that Astinus doesn’t have a hard time scouting out potential receivers. Kind of like a Review Announcement Thread...
Edit: To make it easier on those that have done plenty of reviews before this, reviews posted for consideration in the thread should be calculated from the first review that the member wants to show to the current. This means that if A posted a link in the announcement thread saying that he did a review in Sep '08, his RpM should be calculated from Sep '08 onwards. Likewise, if B posts a link in the thread Apr '10, his RpM should be calculated from that point and his reviews before that disregarded to avoid complications.

Undoubtedly, it's going to take a hell of a lot of work...
Yeah, would be a lot of work and time to get this done. You would have to keep track of every member that did the reviews and such.

Miz en Scène April 3rd, 2010 12:45 AM

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Originally Posted by Bay Alexison (Post 5676386)
I don't think threats would be a good idea. If anything, that'll make them want to review even less.

Like I said, it was just a suggestion and I knew it was a bit hard. Eye-catching titles don't always work because during that period of time when Astinus changed the rule thread title each week or so there were still rules being broken anyway...


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Yeah, would be a lot of work and time to get this done. You would have to keep track of every member that did the reviews and such.
They'd post in a Review Announcement thread to say that they've done a review. It's still a lot of work, but it's less work than having to click on every single thread to note down who's done reviews. With the thread, we know who's done reviews and can check them with the links they provide.

Not relevant, but why are there Slowpokes everywhere? And why on the 3rd of April?

Astinus April 3rd, 2010 1:09 AM

Mizan already said what I needed to about catchy thread titles. Way back when, in an attempt to get people to read the rules, I changed the thread's title to various different things to try and catch people's attention. Guess the really idiotic ways that my coworkers try to fight off infections (with steak sauce, if you can habeeb it) didn't work.

Right now, the thread's title is just an acronym from another fandom. I like it because it's rather on the rude side.

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2. Activity. What are some incentives/reviewing-related challenges that could help encourage members to be active?
I've actually gotten quite a few requests to bring back that prompt challenge we had two years ago. Unfortunately, the only prompts I currently have all involve m/m slash in some way, so other prompts might be needed. If there's some sort of reward involved, like an emblem, then even more interest might be gained. It's kind of like Poem of the Week [2], which Bay can explain more if needed because she participated. (Unlike the mod, who approved it and then unfortunately never looked back. College poetry class kind of ruined my enjoyment of poetry. Inconspicuous is not a verb!) With POTW, an emblem was handed out to the winner of each week.

If that's cool, then we're going to need more emblems made. Go, my little artists! Go!

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Didn't we do a plot bunny farm before but it failed? I guess we can do a redux version or something.
We had the Plot Bunny Farm (where plunnies go to die) a while back. I don't know if there were any others. But the Plot Bunny Farm kind of flopped because I'll assume that people weren't too willing to pick up other people's plot ideas. (Hint hint to someone out there.) Which is a shame, because there was a chance to write femslash and m/m slash posted to that thread.

But I think a thread for plot ideas like the one SPPf has would work better. That way, anyone can post any idea that they have to get comments on it to see if it will actually work/get interest. Instead of a thread where people might leave their fics/ideas down for other people to write.

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I’d be willing to do the badfic examples, but obviously I can’t cover all the common grammar mistakes a writer might make (eg Lays vs. Lies and To vs. Too).
I could easily do it. Someone almost received a VM where I messed up your/you're, too/to, and several other common mistakes if I didn't proof-read. It'll be rather easy for me.

Plus I tend to break older grammar conventions, like the whole "don't start a sentence with a conjunction", or switching between British and American standards. I could break minds.

Everything else I can't really comment on (yet) because it's five in the morning, and I can't read.

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Not relevant, but why are there Slowpokes everywhere? And why on the 3rd of April?
April Fools' Day, where people play tricks/pranks on one another on April 1st. It's done today on PC for various reasons, namely because Slowpoke are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Also, you may now enjoy a link to one of my favorite Super Effective strips.

Bay April 3rd, 2010 8:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5676982)
Mizan already said what I needed to about catchy thread titles. Way back when, in an attempt to get people to read the rules, I changed the thread's title to various different things to try and catch people's attention. Guess the really idiotic ways that my coworkers try to fight off infections (with steak sauce, if you can habeeb it) didn't work.

Right now, the thread's title is just an acronym from another fandom. I like it because it's rather on the rude side.

Okay, gotcha. Hm, I still can't think of anything that would make the new people read the rules/stickies. XD I'm working on it, though!

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I've actually gotten quite a few requests to bring back that prompt challenge we had two years ago. Unfortunately, the only prompts I currently have all involve m/m slash in some way, so other prompts might be needed. If there's some sort of reward involved, like an emblem, then even more interest might be gained. It's kind of like Poem of the Week [2], which Bay can explain more if needed because she participated. (Unlike the mod, who approved it and then unfortunately never looked back. College poetry class kind of ruined my enjoyment of poetry. Inconspicuous is not a verb!) With POTW, an emblem was handed out to the winner of each week.

If that's cool, then we're going to need more emblems made. Go, my little artists! Go!
Oh great, would I have to explain how I won PotW with an angst love poem too? XD; In all seriousness though, yeah I can explain real quick to everyone here. Basically there's a prompt, for example "rain." After that, a few people make a poem base off that prompt. Later a couple judges will look over the poems and see which one is best.

But yeah, is anyone here up for a prompt challenge too? Only difference between the prompt challenge and the PotW is the prompt challenges won't have the judges. And Astinus if you want, I can take over the prompt challenge if you want. I can think of a few that are not m/m slash. XD

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We had the Plot Bunny Farm (where plunnies go to die) a while back. I don't know if there were any others. But the Plot Bunny Farm kind of flopped because I'll assume that people weren't too willing to pick up other people's plot ideas. (Hint hint to someone out there.) Which is a shame, because there was a chance to write femslash and m/m slash posted to that thread.

But I think a thread for plot ideas like the one SPPf has would work better. That way, anyone can post any idea that they have to get comments on it to see if it will actually work/get interest. Instead of a thread where people might leave their fics/ideas down for other people to write.
Yeah, I think it would be a better idea if the thread for plot ideas works that way. I know I wouldn't be able to write something based on someone else's idea due to me afraid I'll mess it up.

txteclipse April 3rd, 2010 3:03 PM

Note: I will be working on this post for a while, so expect some changes in the next few hours.

I'm kind of a scatterbrain, and I can't really keep track of all the things that are being suggested here, so I'm actually going to start acting as a bit of an organizer/bookkeeper right now if nobody minds. I guess you could call this post an absolute minimalist approach to this very complicated business of renewing the fanfiction section.

Here's my philosophy: I will create some key goals for the renovation, placing them in order from most important to least important (according to me). I will then file suggested solutions or changes under the major goal(s) they address. Hopefully this will save some brains from exploding, including mine. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

1. Increase interest in the fanfiction section in general.

A) Bring back the prompt challenge.

B) Hand out emblems like drugs candy. (Get the art section in on emblem creation?)

C) Do one-shot challenges.

D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster?

2. Increase/improve reader input (including reviewing).

A) Provide incentives for reviewing.

B) Have some sort of reading/reviewing competition with prizes (anyone remember Book It?).

C) Create a thread in which people critique other people's review styles.

2. Increase productive writer interaction.

A) Revamp the plot bunny thread to allow any person to post any idea and receive feedback on it.

B) Make the Lounge more writing-focused/offload the craziness somewhere else.

3. Improve ease of access to all sections for new writers.

A) Revise the purpose/structure of the Lounge to make it less cliquey.

4. Increase interaction between experienced writers and inexperienced writers.

A) I propose that we have a reader adoption system, in which experienced writers take one or two new writers under their wing and basically act as a mentor to them, regularly beta'ing and/or critiquing their work.

5. Streamline both the rules and various guides/increase new writer exposure to these sections.

A) Create a guide in which a badfic is reviewed, pointing out common mistakes of new writers.

B) Create a resources thread with links to helpful websites.

C) Have writers post a link to every new fic in the Rules thread! :D

Astinus April 3rd, 2010 7:58 PM

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D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster?
That would unfortunately require the rest of the forum to care what happens in this section. It would be nice, but we're really our own separate entity unto ourselves here.

There was more I could say, but I'm half asleep and wanting to go play old Nintendo games. So it's going to have to wait one more day for me to be useful.

bobandbill April 3rd, 2010 8:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5678995)
Note: I will be working on this post for a while, so expect some changes in the next few hours.

I'm kind of a scatterbrain, and I can't really keep track of all the things that are being suggested here, so I'm actually going to start acting as a bit of an organizer/bookkeeper right now if nobody minds. I guess you could call this post an absolute minimalist approach to this very complicated business of renewing the fanfiction section.

Here's my philosophy: I will create some key goals for the renovation, placing them in order from most important to least important (according to me). I will then file suggested solutions or changes under the major goal(s) they address. Hopefully this will save some brains from exploding, including mine. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

1. Increase interest in the fanfiction section in general.

A) Bring back the prompt challenge. I say yes to this

B) Hand out emblems like drugs candy. (Get the art section in on emblem creation?) Mabye not like candy, but it's an idea.

C) Do one-shot challenges. Yeah

D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster? I'm think this wouldn't be very successful. Personally maybe we could have a subsection for completed fics? Yes sppf has it first but I don't see why not

2. Increase/improve reader input (including reviewing).

A) Provide incentives for reviewing. Maybe combine with an emblem - if Astinus seeing mods give out emblems sees someone who reviews well, they get a shiny emblem? Maybe we already have this in fact but if so, bring it about into force.

B) Have some sort of reading/reviewing competition with prizes (anyone remember Book It?). Book it? Explain please. =P But maybe a review thingy would be good...once there's enough interest.

C) Create a thread in which people critique other people's review styles. IDK how successful this'd be - there's no real one best way to critique I feel, and I'm a bit doubtful on how well it'd work. =/ The review guide thingy does a better job IMO.

2. Increase productive writer interaction.

A) Revamp the plot bunny thread to allow any person to post any idea and receive feedback on it. Yes

B) Make the Lounge more writing-focused/offload the craziness somewhere else. Yes

3. Improve ease of access to all sections for new writers.

A) Revise the purpose/structure of the Lounge to make it less cliquey. YES

4. Increase interaction between experienced writers and inexperienced writers. YES

A) I propose that we have a reader adoption system, in which experienced writers take one or two new writers under their wing and basically act as a mentor to them, regularly beta'ing and/or critiquing their work. TBH this sounds kinda like the Beta Thread, just more of an extension of it and personally betas kinda should be doing that in cases anyways...constantly giving feedback on work, etc if time allows/the writer needs it

5. Streamline both the rules and various guides/increase new writer exposure to these sections.

A) Create a guide in which a badfic is reviewed, pointing out common mistakes of new writers. Could be part of a new Fanfic guide thread?

B) Create a resources thread with links to helpful websites. Yeah... maybe combine with the above though? I suppose we all could have a discussion thread on making such a thread actually, and compine stuff like the Grammer thread with it (and separate parts into different posts for easier-reading sake).

C) Have writers post a link to every new fic in the Rules thread! :D Interesting, although the rule-breakers tend to not read the rules anyways so idk...

Random thoughts in bold here. Bacause I'm lazy. =P

Astinus April 3rd, 2010 8:45 PM

Oh, bobandbill, you're an Aussie, so of course you don't know what Book It! is.

Of course, I'm American, and I had no idea. Then again, I don't eat pizza.

Book It!, a program created by Pizza Hut (Their pizzas make me terribly terribly ill) to get children to read. Basically, a goal is set per month for a child, and if the child reads that much each month, a manager of their local Hut gives them a free kid-sized pizza (this is making me sick), a Book It! card, and a backpack kit.

That can't happen here, but there are similarities. If someone reads and reviews a certain amount of fics per month, then they get a shiny emblem. Because we just love our extrinsic rewards here.

bobandbill April 3rd, 2010 9:01 PM

Oh, I see. Cheers for the explanation then. =)

I suppose that could work...although a check on the reviews themselves (because if anything weak one-liners reviews hinder rather than help the community as a whole at times) would probably be needed if done.

Astinus April 3rd, 2010 9:22 PM

That's one reason why I would like quality to be put ahead of competitions. Because it's not too helpful to have a lot of one-liner reviews that can be quickly c/p'd to various thread in the section. But if there's a certain standard of quality, then things can look better.

Right now, I'm really bugged about reviews seen on another forum, but that's gonna be something I'll have to discuss at another time. We're still in the planning stages.

Hopefully soon we'll be getting somewhere with this.

Edit: I'm sure if I'm a PITA enough about it, I can fix up the subforums of this section. Getting a Completed Fics forum and whatever else y'all desire.

Giratina ♀ April 4th, 2010 5:20 AM

I think that completed fics should be placed in a "Completed" subforum and stickied, but not locked like Serebii does; after all, what if you realize they were moved before you could get in a comment on the climax or the end of the story? Sorry, I know the comment is terribly short, but I don't have anything else to say on the matter except that I have an unpleasantly vague idea on what you could put on an achievement for reviewing stuff... a keyboard and pen?

Miz en Scène April 4th, 2010 8:47 AM

I'mma use bobandbill's format and then go back to lurking DeviantArt...

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5678995)
1. Increase interest in the fanfiction section in general.

A) Bring back the prompt challenge. Yes, but make it monthly rather than weekly or yearly.

B) Hand out emblems like drugs candy. (Get the art section in on emblem creation?) The way I see it, there are lots of artists in the fanfiction section so let's see if we can handle this as an interior issue before seeking help from outsiders. I sound like the government...

C) Do one-shot challenges. Yes, but integrate with 'A'.

D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster? No for reason stated in 'B'. Unless of course, all the vets or frequent FFL-ers would agree to advertise said fic in their sig for a month...

2. Increase/improve reader input (including reviewing).

A) Provide incentives for reviewing. Yes, and working on it with that 3 stage emblem plan of mine. I'm trying to make it seem like less work...

B) Have some sort of reading/reviewing competition with prizes (anyone remember Book It?). Don't know it, but Asty explained. Thanks. XD

C) Create a thread in which people critique other people's review styles. Uhhh... not sure...

2. Increase productive writer interaction.

A) Revamp the plot bunny thread to allow any person to post any idea and receive feedback on it. Yes

B) Make the Lounge more writing-focused/offload the craziness somewhere else. MaybeYes, but not too strict. Only allow for minimal deviation from topic and not all out DCC styled conversation on Anime and random other things unless relevant to fanfiction.

3. Improve ease of access to all sections for new writers.

A) Revise the purpose/structure of the Lounge to make it less cliquey. Yes

4. Increase interaction between experienced writers and inexperienced writers.

A) I propose that we have a reader adoption system, in which experienced writers take one or two new writers under their wing and basically act as a mentor to them, regularly beta'ing and/or critiquing their work. Like bobandbill said, it's like an extension to the beta thread...

5. Streamline both the rules and various guides/increase new writer exposure to these sections.

A) Create a guide in which a badfic is reviewed, pointing out common mistakes of new writers. Can be integrated with the uploading tutorials or review worksheet thing.

B) Create a resources thread with links to helpful websites. Problem is that no one reads stickies.

C) Have writers post a link to every new fic in the Rules thread! :D Same problem as 5B.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5680196)
Edit: I'm sure if I'm a PITA enough about it, I can fix up the subforums of this section. Getting a Completed Fics forum and whatever else y'all desire.

While we're at it, is it possible to remove the revision bin since we don't use it? Or maybe rename it to become the completed fics section, but don't lock completed fics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀ (Post 5681177)
I think that completed fics should be placed in a "Completed" subforum and stickied, but not locked like Serebii does; after all, what if you realize they were moved before you could get in a comment on the climax or the end of the story? Sorry, I know the comment is terribly short, but I don't have anything else to say on the matter except that I have an unpleasantly vague idea on what you could put on an achievement for reviewing stuff... a keyboard and pen?

Agreed.

Bay April 5th, 2010 4:23 PM

This way is much easier. XD; And sorry for late reply, had to take care of some things. >.>

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5678995)
Note: I will be working on this post for a while, so expect some changes in the next few hours.

I'm kind of a scatterbrain, and I can't really keep track of all the things that are being suggested here, so I'm actually going to start acting as a bit of an organizer/bookkeeper right now if nobody minds. I guess you could call this post an absolute minimalist approach to this very complicated business of renewing the fanfiction section.

Here's my philosophy: I will create some key goals for the renovation, placing them in order from most important to least important (according to me). I will then file suggested solutions or changes under the major goal(s) they address. Hopefully this will save some brains from exploding, including mine. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

1. Increase interest in the fanfiction section in general.

A) Bring back the prompt challenge. -Yes!

B) Hand out emblems like drugs candy. (Get the art section in on emblem creation?) Sounds like a good idea too. Hm, did we establish what kind of emblems we'll be giving out? I think we're still talking about a reviewing emblem...O.o

C) Do one-shot challenges. -We should do this too.

D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster? -Not so sure. Most likely that fic will overshadow the other fics. Remember, we're trying to have people read more of the fics here, not just a few.

2. Increase/improve reader input (including reviewing).

A) Provide incentives for reviewing. -Yes, and yeah also agreement on emblems maybe one of the incentives.

B) Have some sort of reading/reviewing competition with prizes (anyone remember Book It?). - Hm, I think we explained before how a couple "challenges" for reviewing didn't worked out or won't work out? Otherwise, to me it seems more people are excited to write than review, so one shot challenges/contests bring in more people than review ones. So long story short, not so sure.

C) Create a thread in which people critique other people's review styles. -I like this idea, but perhaps have a disclaimer in that there is no right way of reviewing but that this thread is for if you feel you want to fintune it or something.

2. Increase productive writer interaction.

A) Revamp the plot bunny thread to allow any person to post any idea and receive feedback on it. -Yes.

B) Make the Lounge more writing-focused/offload the craziness somewhere else. -Of course! :P

3. Improve ease of access to all sections for new writers.

A) Revise the purpose/structure of the Lounge to make it less cliquey. - *nods* Of course. :3

4. Increase interaction between experienced writers and inexperienced writers.

A) I propose that we have a reader adoption system, in which experienced writers take one or two new writers under their wing and basically act as a mentor to them, regularly beta'ing and/or critiquing their work. -Like the others said, pretty much an extension of the beta thread.

5. Streamline both the rules and various guides/increase new writer exposure to these sections.

A) Create a guide in which a badfic is reviewed, pointing out common mistakes of new writers. -Not so sure on that. Pretty much everyone's perspective on badfic is different, IMO.

B) Create a resources thread with links to helpful websites. -I'm going with bobandbill's idea in that we have a discussion thread that we can talk more about this.

C) Have writers post a link to every new fic in the Rules thread! :D -Not so sure about that. You would have to keep track of every new fic posted. Then again, I suck at tracking stuff and I'm a finance person D: .


Astinus April 5th, 2010 5:42 PM

I'm so busted if I get caught on here during work.

Quote:

Hm, I think we explained before how a couple "challenges" for reviewing didn't worked out or won't work out? Otherwise, to me it seems more people are excited to write than review, so one shot challenges/contests bring in more people than review ones. So long story short, not so sure.
There was an official "you review me, I'll review you" thread, where the person who posts asking for a review has to review the people who posted before them. One reason I think that failed was because a writer might not be willing to review other people, or the pile of people wanting reviews gets to be so long that it's kind of tedious.

Then there was the recent "Hey, let's just review with no stipulations!" thread from last month. That failed for some reason that I can't fathom, or just completely refuse to fathom.

I dunno. Maybe we should focus more on getting stories to review, and then working on getting the quality of reviews up before we decide we need more reviews? Because I bag people more on lesser quality reviews than the quality of a story posted.

Kind of a short response because lol work.

Buoysel April 5th, 2010 5:49 PM

I volunteered to make an emblem, and have no problem making several, I just need ideas on what they should look like.

[OFF TOPIC]
Spoiler:
I GOT ACCEPTED TO A PRIVATE COLLEGE AND START MAY 3RD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOOO HOOOOO !!!1111!!111!!!11
*cough* Sorry[/OFF TOPIC]

JX Valentine April 5th, 2010 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5686805)
I dunno. Maybe we should focus more on getting stories to review, and then working on getting the quality of reviews up before we decide we need more reviews? Because I bag people more on lesser quality reviews than the quality of a story posted.

The thing is we have plenty of stories to review. However, there wasn't (until I complained on my personal LJ) that much in terms of reviewing going on.

And even then, one of the benefits of having an active reviewerbase with plenty of people to offer quality reviews is that the more people see that they're likely to get feedback on a certain place, the more likely they'll be to post. This is why you get kids who say, "OMG, I thought this place would give me awesome reviews because the other place did" and why kids post more on places where there's a lot of reviewers: because they're focused on getting as many reviews as possible. There's exceptions, of course, but these are usually loaded with other incentives -- like how Pokemon Tower has its own awards system set up -- or have just been around for awhile.

Hence why my original question about activity was "how do we get more people to review" and not so much "how do we get more people to post stories." I mean, if all of the threads on the first page were updated within the last couple of days, that means you at least have fifteen new stories to check out. Activity in the writing department's not that bad if that's the case. It's just that people aren't getting that many reviews. So, you're not only stopping short of setting a standard, but the kids out there are also getting impatient when they go for a couple of chapters without getting so much as a note. (Case in point.)

tl;dr, from what I can tell, you're fine in terms of fic activity. It's the feedback end where there's a disconnection. And anyway, it's the reviews that really help feed the activity in a writing community, so it's a win-win situation if you can kick people into posting more reviews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoysel (Post 5686826)
[OFF TOPIC]
Spoiler:
I GOT ACCEPTED TO A PRIVATE COLLEGE AND START MAY 3RD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOOO HOOOOO !!!1111!!111!!!11
*cough* Sorry[/OFF TOPIC]

I'd hate to sound like a mini-mod, but if you have to say it's "off-topic," why are you bringing it up here instead of in VMs -- or better yet, your PC blog?

Caliban April 5th, 2010 10:24 PM

Hi. Yes, I'm not lurking (as much) today.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Txty
D) What if we picked one fic a year to be advertised site-wide? Sort of a fanfiction blockbuster?

As other people have mentioned before me, this could get one fic in particular read, drawing attention away from the others. Maybe it would work better if this hypothetical rotated through every fic in the current fic pool...? As in, changed every time you refresh the page to a different fic each time. You'd probably want certain restraints on which fics got displayed, like maybe putting one that's been posted in recently above one that hasn't been posted in for six years, I don't really know. But, theoretically, it could work.
If anyone's interested, I have the code for it sitting on my external drive somewhere.
- Liam

Astinus April 5th, 2010 11:13 PM

Maybe we can use reviews as a stipulation to get writing contests. The contests seem to be what gets resounding positive answers, so maybe saying "hey people, go out and review the fics that are out there before we get more here with contests" could work. Same with emblems. Because, y'know, extrinsic rewards seem to work better than intrinsic ones. So give people some reason to review more other than "out of the goodness of their little hearts".

So swing your focus on getting reviews, people. Upping the amount of reviews and the quality of them. (Don't look at me for suggestions/motivation because I have a host of issues getting in my way, unfortunately.)

Besides, if we follow science, then reviewing more --> getting more people wanting to post their fics

There's more to that, I'm sure, but I can't think of it.

Also, CALIBAAAAAAN (iluvu,indy), I'm not sure how willing the upper staff is to put a random rotating code on the forums for this section. But that does bring to mind the return of Fanfiction of the Month, which might not work out for reasons that will be brought up. But that's probably getting ahead of where we need to be looking.

Misheard Whisper April 5th, 2010 11:41 PM

Well, I've resolved to start reviewing more (both here and elsewhere) so I'm all up for this. I'm also writing at a a hundred and fifty knots, so that might help generate some more reviewage, yes/yes?

I say we get this party started. *cracks knuckles* Who's with us?

Caliban April 6th, 2010 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5687561)
Also, CALIBAAAAAAN (iluvu,indy), I'm not sure how willing the upper staff is to put a random rotating code on the forums for this section. But that does bring to mind the return of Fanfiction of the Month, which might not work out for reasons that will be brought up. But that's probably getting ahead of where we need to be looking.

Yes, I know it's probably a bit far ahead, but I only feel comfortable offering help with tech things because my other ideas tend to be unworkable or just plain inane (ignore rhyme please). XD;
Does the box where it says "Fan Fiction and Writing Submit your stories and poems" support links? If so, you'd probably be able to put your rotating link there.
(image in spoiler shows the box that I'm referring to)

*Liam wanders off irrelevantly to somewhere else again*

Misheard Whisper April 6th, 2010 12:50 AM

I'm pretty sure that supports links, as I think I've seen other forums use it to link to their respective rulesets.

*me picks a random fic off the first page and reviews it*

icomeanon6 April 6th, 2010 3:59 AM

I haven't done anything around here in a good while, so I guess reviewing sounds like a good way to get back in the groove. I'll do some of that once the school day's over.

And while I'm here, how about a bold topic?

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

I've heard some people say that you're supposed to think of some good characters first and let the story grow around them, but I find that I usually think of a kind of scene that I'd like to do and let the characters grow around that. What about the rest of you?

Silawen April 6th, 2010 5:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icomeanon6 (Post 5687950)
When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

I usually think of a plot first. Once I have all important events written down I'll worry about what characters to put in. I mould characters to what their place in the plot is, not the other way around. While I've sometimes thought up characters that I'd love to use, I don't change the story to suit the character. Characters should serve the story, not the other way around.

Once I know what's going on I can start thinking about what kind of characters I need to tell my story.

Buoysel April 6th, 2010 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JX Valentine (Post 5687384)
I'd hate to sound like a mini-mod, but if you have to say it's "off-topic," why are you bringing it up here instead of in VMs -- or better yet, your PC blog?

The reason I posted that here apparently didn't get posted (in other words my last post was missing something). 0.o Sorry.

I took the entrance exam yesterday and was quite tired from that, whether that is the reason why what I am about to say didn't get on my last post I honestly don't remember.

"While taking the writing section of the exam, I found it to be rather easy, I spotted lot of errors that I see getting pointed out all the time in reviews. I was wanting to thank every one in the FanFiction lounge. Reading some of your reviews helped me out a lot yesterday."

That would be the reason I posted it here in the lounge, There are too many people to go to each and everyone and post a VM, and a blog would not reach everybody.

Bay April 6th, 2010 3:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5687561)
Maybe we can use reviews as a stipulation to get writing contests. The contests seem to be what gets resounding positive answers, so maybe saying "hey people, go out and review the fics that are out there before we get more here with contests" could work. Same with emblems. Because, y'know, extrinsic rewards seem to work better than intrinsic ones. So give people some reason to review more other than "out of the goodness of their little hearts".

So swing your focus on getting reviews, people. Upping the amount of reviews and the quality of them. (Don't look at me for suggestions/motivation because I have a host of issues getting in my way, unfortunately.)

Besides, if we follow science, then reviewing more --> getting more people wanting to post their fics

There's more to that, I'm sure, but I can't think of it.

Hm, I think this might work. Besides, for contests the judges will have to at least be quite decent in the reviews (that is if we're going to do one shot contests and such like Serebii and the Short Writing Contest from the 2009 Get Together).

Also, emblems good idea too. Speaking of which, how is that going?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper (Post 5687594)
Well, I've resolved to start reviewing more (both here and elsewhere) so I'm all up for this. I'm also writing at a a hundred and fifty knots, so that might help generate some more reviewage, yes/yes?

I say we get this party started. *cracks knuckles* Who's with us?

I'm with you. :3 Despite me going to be busy with uni work and such, I'll try to leave some time to review a few fics here and there.

And AH, BOLD TOPIC! D: *checks solovino's Bold Topic Index* As far as I can tell, don't see a bold topic of this. I might've missed that though, so someone kick me if indeed there's a bold topic about this. >.>


When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

I tend to think up events I want to do and then what kind of characters I want to put. Like Silawen said, ifI do the other way round it makes it as if I'm trying to have the plot revolve around the character, which is a big no-no. :P

Dagzar April 6th, 2010 3:47 PM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?
Characters, definitely. I have so many of them I’m always struggling to give each and every one of them a story. I never think of the story first, probably because I care more about the characters than the plot. A story / plot / setting is just a sandbox I play in with my characters, nothing more.

Astinus April 6th, 2010 4:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bay Alexison (Post 5689530)
Also, emblems good idea too. Speaking of which, how is that going?

We need to decide what the pictures are going to look like for the emblems. Buoysel asked us if there were any images that we could use so he could work on an emblem, but his post got lost in the shuffle. So if anyone has any image ideas, send them to Buoysel.

txteclipse April 6th, 2010 5:22 PM

I can help with emblems as well, once I have access to my netbook (might take a few days).

As for the list I posted a bit ago, I'm not sure what to do with it now. I could either a) make a new thread for it, b) continue adding stuff to it here and strike out things that people don't want to do, or c) add stuff to it here and include links to posts that express concerns about certain items.

I'm leaning toward the last one, because basic brainstorming philosophy dictates that you don't throw out ideas. It would make things more complicated, though, which I was ultimately trying to avoid. Creating a new thread is also inviting, but would people actually go to it? I probably wouldn't if I were me. Which I am.

Mika April 7th, 2010 12:13 AM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

Events. Then Characters and then sometimes sometimes a first page. For me, the most difficult part of fanfiction is getting the ball rolling. I can write points B - Z but I can't write A - Z to save my life. I have everything planned out almost always before hand except that part. XD I dunno, its probably not answering the question 100% but when I do a one shot or w/e, it's what's always at the bottom of the list of 'things to think up'

インフェルノの津波 April 7th, 2010 12:15 AM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

Um.....events. I think up of the character later on, it's not my style to do characters first, unless they play a big part in the storyline.

Misheard Whisper April 7th, 2010 1:39 AM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

Hmm, hurr. I come up with a very basic premise first (eg Team Galactic is wreaking havoc in Sunyshore and someone has to stop them), then I work out a main character (Tyson, a young policeman with a sister he can't find), then I build more detailed events as I write it (some Marines turn up, Tyson goes with them, there's a shootout in an abandoned house, Dialga blah blah blah spoiler spoilers spoilers) and make up more characters as I go (Dragon, the boss of the Marine squad, and the other members). I sorta slop it all on a page and hold it together with spit, prayers and lots of sellotape.

Swift! April 7th, 2010 3:38 AM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?

I think up the plot and the major events first, then the charactes, and then the smaller events. Like Mika, I always end up with almost everything planned, except the start of the fic.

Astinus April 7th, 2010 1:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5689940)
I can help with emblems as well, once I have access to my netbook (might take a few days).

Maybe whatever images people think we could use, they could send them to me and I'll send them to the artists? idk.

As for the other half of your post, idk there either. Leaving it in the Lounge means that more people see it. But then again, the discussion has already fallen to the previous page by the discussion the bold topic raised.

So maybe a separate thread might work, with constant reminders of "hey, people, check this out will you?" Only not from me because it took me several tries to remember a non-rude way to address people. Harhar.

Or it might not work.

Also because I have something that I thought up and idk what will happen to this thread in the six hours I'm away before I can post again.

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?
They pretty much come at the same time. But I think the characters come first, where I plop them in various situations and see how they roll with it.

Edit: Okay. Maybe no post because people are hurr.

PsychoJigglypuff April 7th, 2010 1:34 PM

I've been trying to work on a fanfic recently, although I'm horrible at actually sitting down and writing it. It doesn't even have a definite plot yet, but it's probably just going to be a comedic parody.

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?
I always think of characters first. I love creating characters, even though I never end up using most of them, since I can never figure out a good plot.

Miz en Scène April 8th, 2010 5:37 PM

When you're thinking up an idea for a story, which do you think of first, characters or events?
Events and then characters because I'm more comfortable with working out the plot rather than characterization.

Anyway, it seems the lounge has gone back to just bold-topics and there only appear to be snippets of the revolution that was supposed to take place.

Revolution Segment
In reference to my suggestion on which we'd have a 'Wall of Reviewers' thread and Bay said that it would take a lot of work. I'd be willing to make the thread and update it monthly plus coming up with the rules and such.

  • In tl;dr form, we'd have an incentive in the form of a bronze,silver and gold emblem for reviewers who reach a certain quota of reviews for a set number of months.
  • People would post in a thread to say that they've done review so and so and I'd add that to the list plus their Reviews per month calculation. Reviews that aren't linked won't be counted, but I'd check the review links to see that they're not just lying about reviewing for the sake of getting emblems. Reviews must meet a certain standard so that short reviews that don't technically break rules, but aren't really much help except for pointing out a mistake or two aren't counted(this segment up for refinement).
  • A different emblem, of much higher distinction than the three ranked ones, but of unknown specs, for reviews that are excellent can be given out by Astinus to whomever she deems worthy enough regardless of RPM quota.

Feedback?

Astinus April 8th, 2010 10:49 PM

I want gender-neutral pronouns to be commonplace.

Determining just how much is enough when it comes to reviews would be a good thing. While there's currently a revival of what's going to be counted as good reviews (all y'all that're reviewing and kicking ass deserve something grand), there's still the matter of determining just how low we want reviews to go. I mean, is saying "Don't you think that you need to be a little more descriptive?" good enough? Or how about "Congratulations!! It's just a perfect story. Ok there may be some typing mistakes, but so what"?

Once that's straightened out, we can kind of prod people along to reaching the standards set without making it seem like they need to kill themselves. Saying that someone doesn't need to go line-by-line and point out every good and bad thing in order to review might take a load off potential reviewers' minds. It lets them know that this is what we're looking for, and that's all. Then there'll be plenty of people out there reviewing in hopes of getting emblems. Which means...

Quote:

In tl;dr form, we'd have an incentive in the form of a bronze,silver and gold emblem for reviewers who reach a certain quota of reviews for a set number of months.
Yes to the emblems. We have a few volunteers here in our own section willing to make them, which is great. And people love trying to earn emblems.

Quote:

People would post in a thread to say that they've done review so and so and I'd add that to the list plus their Reviews per month calculation. Reviews that aren't linked won't be counted, but I'd check the review links to see that they're not just lying about reviewing for the sake of getting emblems. Reviews must meet a certain standard so that short reviews that don't technically break rules, but aren't really much help except for pointing out a mistake or two aren't counted(this segment up for refinement).
Most of my thoughts on this were posted above on the standards part of it. Currently, I'm not thinking/seeing of any problem with this that there could be. Others might see something. But right now, I'm fine with it.

Quote:

A different emblem, of much higher distinction than the three ranked ones, but of unknown specs, for reviews that are excellent can be given out by Astinus to whomever she zie deems worthy enough regardless of RPM quota.
I just know with this emblem I'm going to get some questions as to how people can earn this emblem. Especially if it's shiny and secret enough.

Just to ask: do you mean reviewers or reviewers? I'm leaning toward the latter one, only because those people who are reviewing and kicking ass every time they review deserve something grand.

That's all I have for now. Hoping things get moving.

txteclipse April 9th, 2010 12:09 AM

Netbook showed up today. Coincidentally, what do you all think of animated emblems? :3

...Or can we even do that?

Miz en Scène April 9th, 2010 1:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5697959)
Just to ask: do you mean reviewers or reviewers? I'm leaning toward the latter one, only because those people who are reviewing and kicking ass every time they review deserve something grand.

Uhhh... Well, I assume that you meant to say reviewers as opposed to single reviews --unless I'm missing something here >.< -- so I'm gonna say reviewers. Like the writer's emblem, someone qualifies after doing quality reviews that are generally deemed awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5698071)
Netbook showed up today. Coincidentally, what do you all think of animated emblems? :3

...Or can we even do that?

My sentiments exactly... I haven't seen any animated ones as of now...

Misheard Whisper April 9th, 2010 2:19 AM

Ugh, I feel awful now. After saying I'd go do reviews straight away, I haven't done any yet. Why is that? I guess I find it difficult to review fics that are in progress, seeing as I like to go down and break them down paragraph by paragraph or even line by line, without there being too many mistakes.

Ugh, I'm just making excuses, but at least I'm in the mood to review now if something comes up that I can review. I've even been practicing over on the Big Green forum. :3

In short, yeah, this is a 'sorry, I fail and am a complete procrastinator' post. u_u

I do like the idea of a shiny super secret semblem for Asty to hand out, though, and I do agree with the idea put forward earlier about the bronze/silver/gold emblems, though I suggest Astinus determines the exact number required for each and keeps it seekurt. :3

Yusshin April 9th, 2010 2:22 AM

Is everyone capable of reviewing, or is there a sign-up thread?

I'd very much like to get in on this :s I've already reviewed two or three fanfics, and I rather enjoy it. Always nice to help out.

bobandbill April 9th, 2010 3:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yusshin (Post 5698241)
Is everyone capable of reviewing, or is there a sign-up thread?

I'd very much like to get in on this :s I've already reviewed two or three fanfics, and I rather enjoy it. Always nice to help out.

No sign-up needed. o_o Just go and review! =D

Yusshin April 9th, 2010 3:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobandbill (Post 5698329)
No sign-up needed. o_o Just go and review! =D

Thanks for confirming that, 'bill. I might sign up to be a proof-reader in that other thread :s but I only have one decent excerpt of my writing, so I have to wait probably ><

Fun n.n

Astinus April 9th, 2010 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro (Post 5698189)
Uhhh... Well, I assume that you meant to say reviewers as opposed to single reviews --unless I'm missing something here >.< -- so I'm gonna say reviewers.

You missed the fact that I was reading LiveJournal while posting, a habit I really need to stop.

Yeah, I meant reviewers.

I don't think animated emblems are allowed though. Sorry.

Giratina ♀ April 9th, 2010 12:50 PM

Besides, even if we have animated ones, if you have more than one don't they just fade in and out in a continuous loop anyhow? That would make it hard to see anything.

Bay April 9th, 2010 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5697959)
I want gender-neutral pronouns to be commonplace.

Determining just how much is enough when it comes to reviews would be a good thing. While there's currently a revival of what's going to be counted as good reviews (all y'all that're reviewing and kicking ass deserve something grand), there's still the matter of determining just how low we want reviews to go. I mean, is saying "Don't you think that you need to be a little more descriptive?" good enough? Or how about "Congratulations!! It's just a perfect story. Ok there may be some typing mistakes, but so what"?

Once that's straightened out, we can kind of prod people along to reaching the standards set without making it seem like they need to kill themselves. Saying that someone doesn't need to go line-by-line and point out every good and bad thing in order to review might take a load off potential reviewers' minds. It lets them know that this is what we're looking for, and that's all. Then there'll be plenty of people out there reviewing in hopes of getting emblems. Which means...

That this community will be fun again! ;D But yeah, we should discuss how we want the minimum standards of the reviews to be. Maybe as soon as Jax gets the review guide done then we can discuss that there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by txteclipse (Post 5698071)
Netbook showed up today. Coincidentally, what do you all think of animated emblems? :3

...Or can we even do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astinus (Post 5699826)
I don't think animated emblems are allowed though. Sorry.

Actually...http://www.pokecommunity.com/member.php?u=27234 Amachi has this "Work It" Emblem and it's animated. So it is possible to do it.

And speaking of emblems, also yes to the Gold, Silver, and Bronze emblems. Don't think we had those "placement" emblems saved for the ones during the Get Together.

*goes see if she can WORK IT! by reviewing a couple fics tonight*

Astinus April 9th, 2010 8:51 PM

ffffffff. Okay. I'll readily admit that I don't pay any attention to emblems at all.

Miz en Scène April 10th, 2010 5:23 PM

I'm glad to see the influx of reviews we've been having in the forum. XD
It looks like activity's picking up...

Misheard Whisper April 11th, 2010 5:03 AM

Yes, that is how it appears to me also.

As a side note, I'm glad to be contributing now myself. :3

I want to rant about badfic, but I'll save that for a) my lj and/or b) when I'm awake. Or c), Author's Woes, but that's less ranting and more poking fun.

txteclipse April 11th, 2010 5:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀ (Post 5699915)
Besides, even if we have animated ones, if you have more than one don't they just fade in and out in a continuous loop anyhow? That would make it hard to see anything.

Just wanted to address this before I rush into animated emblem-making. Are there styles that cycle through your emblems a la slideshow? On my emblem page, they're all listed separately.

Right now I'm thinking about the bronze/silver/gold emblems. I'll probably do something pretty simple, like a metallic pokeball with a pen.

NikNaks April 13th, 2010 12:17 AM

I kinda feel like I'm butting in here, so I apologise in advance. This is probably the wrong place, and even if it's not you're going to be all like "OMG ROM HACKORZ" and completely ignore me, most likely. Still, worth a try, and I didn't read anywhere that said requests were banned in this thread. I could be completely wrong. :/

I'm on a team that's making a fan-game that's set dually in a new region and in Hoenn. It's our take on what Gen V might be like, but clearly without any of the awesome 3Dness. We're using RMXP, not hacking, and we're making good progress. But the issue is that our plot is... well, non-existent. We can't think of a strong, logical plotline. We have artists, scripters and mappers, but we're not writers.

So, if you're reading this thinking "Hey, I love Hoenn!" and are interested in helping us with our plot, don't hesitate to get in touch. We'll credit you, link to your latest story, whatever you like. Heck, I'll name my first-born after you if it'll make a difference. We're a little bit desperate, truth be told.

Well, that's about all I have to say. If you guys visit the Game Dev forum, you'll know the game as "August Emerald", but the plot's already changed a lot since that thread was posted.

Thanks in advance.

Astinus April 13th, 2010 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNaks (Post 5712083)
I kinda feel like I'm butting in here, so I apologise in advance. This is probably the wrong place, and even if it's not you're going to be all like "OMG ROM HACKORZ" and completely ignore me, most likely.

That's unfortunately what happened. I left this post here because I thought that maybe someone would have seen it, gone "Hey, that sounds like it could be a good idea!", and helped you out.

But instead everyone just saw that you needed plot help for a game. Sorry.

Hoenn's unfortunately the one region I know the least amount about. The games I played the least and the anime seasons I never saw. I don't know. I could help you out a bit, maybe try to get some advice on how to get the plot going. You could message me, give me what you have for ideas, and maybe help you out with something. I wanted to do something with Hoenn, and maybe this is it.

EDIT: I'm not even sure there was a place for you to ask this in the Game Development forum. I don't know how it works.

Bay April 14th, 2010 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NikNaks (Post 5712083)
I kinda feel like I'm butting in here, so I apologise in advance. This is probably the wrong place, and even if it's not you're going to be all like "OMG ROM HACKORZ" and completely ignore me, most likely. Still, worth a try, and I didn't read anywhere that said requests were banned in this thread. I could be completely wrong. :/

I'm on a team that's making a fan-game that's set dually in a new region and in Hoenn. It's our take on what Gen V might be like, but clearly without any of the awesome 3Dness. We're using RMXP, not hacking, and we're making good progress. But the issue is that our plot is... well, non-existent. We can't think of a strong, logical plotline. We have artists, scripters and mappers, but we're not writers.

So, if you're reading this thinking "Hey, I love Hoenn!" and are interested in helping us with our plot, don't hesitate to get in touch. We'll credit you, link to your latest story, whatever you like. Heck, I'll name my first-born after you if it'll make a difference. We're a little bit desperate, truth be told.

Well, that's about all I have to say. If you guys visit the Game Dev forum, you'll know the game as "August Emerald", but the plot's already changed a lot since that thread was posted.

Thanks in advance.

Hm, I admit I was all "oh, you just need help with your game" at first because I was in a bad mood when I frist read your post. D: However, I reread it again and also Astinus' post and now I'm inclined to help you with your work. :3 Hoenn is my favorite region actually (sorry Johto lovers D: and those people complaining about the third gen D: ), so count me in.

NikNaks April 15th, 2010 12:43 AM

Wow, thanks for actually showing an interest, guys! I'll VM/PM you with details

Ninja Caterpie April 15th, 2010 2:55 AM

I'll give you something good, right here, easily.

TEAM <NAME> is trying to do <evil action>.

You're a trainer who wants to beat the Elite Four.

While doing so, you also beat TEAM <NAME>

Best plot ever, because Nintendo made it.


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