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Misheard Whisper September 24th, 2009 11:16 PM

Quote:

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?
Flawed as in being a crap character? Very, de gozaru. ^_^

As for what I think you actually mean, yes, they can be kind of flawed, de gozaru. Haley is too naive for the world sometimes, and that tends to get her into trouble, de gozaru. Tyson is similar in a way, but different in that he prefers to go by the book, which leaves him little room for flexibility, de gozaru. Matthew's just a 'whiny little emo' at the moment, so not much to say about him atm, and everyone's worked out that Jerry's a member of Ginga-dan, yes?

Citrinin September 24th, 2009 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkles
Flawed as in being a crap character? Very. ^_^

I like your characters (at least thus far). D: Their major flaw is that the story that they're in has an author who hasn't updated in forever. D;

Redstar September 25th, 2009 12:40 AM

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?
All of my characters are flawed. Major, minor, protagonist, antagonist... They're simply not real, and thus not deserving of the story, if they don't have a flaw.

Misheard Whisper September 25th, 2009 1:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrinin (Post 5151963)
I like your characters (at least thus far). D: Their major flaw is that the story that they're in has an author who hasn't updated in forever. D;

Touche, my friend, touche. Fear not, I hope to have a chapter done by Tuesday. Then you can let the whip out.

Citrinin September 25th, 2009 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkles
Touche, my friend, touche. Fear not, I hope to have a chapter done by Tuesday. Then you can let the whip out.

You know that he's not going to forgive you for all that time not writing, right? ;D

But seriously, good to hear. :3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redstar
All of my characters are flawed. Major, minor, protagonist, antagonist... They're simply not real, and thus not deserving of the story, if they don't have a flaw.

True, I agree, but the point of the question was more aimed at how flawed they are (i.e. to what extent and in what ways), not whether they have flaws. :s Sorry if that wasn't more clear. ^^;

Redstar September 25th, 2009 2:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrinin (Post 5152176)
True, I agree, but the point of the question was more aimed at how flawed they are (i.e. to what extent and in what ways), not whether they have flaws. :s Sorry if that wasn't more clear. ^^;

Ah. I see that now. I've been a bit out-of-mind lately so I misread.

All my characters could within reason have the desire to kill their self. They're either already at that point, or well on the path to have that desire later on. This is usually through apathy, melancholy, disconnect, or depression. Or some combination of them all.

Haz September 25th, 2009 2:54 AM

Sorry to be off-topic but I have a question and a slight problem.

I'm with the Dragon Adopters forum right and I noticed a HP fic that was badly written and sought to help the author. Although he has followed some my advice, he refuses to add description and won't write it in word. I've been flamed for giving numurous advice but by other people. So should I give up helping or stick to my guns?

In case your wondering here is the thread where its happening: http://www.dragonadopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=57479.msg1745676#new

Citrinin September 25th, 2009 3:45 AM

If you stick to your guns, here's what will happen. You will further get flamed, despite the level of logic you use, which will further cause the author to think that you are wrong. So, you would have just wasted your time trying to give help, making people angrier at you and achieving nothing.

It's unfortunate, and I sympathise with your plight, but if someone doesn't want help, they don't have to take it. Sure, it doesn't make their fic better, but you don't need to worry about that. Ultimately, it's their problem. Instead, help someone who wants it, and is therefore far more likely to deserve it. If they're going to make strawman arguments like "Hey if it dosen't have to be perfect, it's OK already" (not to mention implicitly accepting their story being mediocre), then don't worry. And, I have to say it - "I only want comments about the story not how it's written" was lol-worthy. ;D

Sgt Shock September 25th, 2009 5:23 AM

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?

Very. Not so much in the beginning but as the story progress Josh becomes consumed in what he believes is true justice. His mind become jaded and become completely obsessed with putting this one criminal away. He becomes cold and withdrawn more often and genuinely believes that criminals (and most people) are evil by nature. This leads to his inner conflict as well his conflict with several of his comrades. With hate consuming him, the bonds with some of his older pokemon because fragmented. At the point of which I have written, he starting to get himself back but it proves to be harder than he imagined. Especially since his "mentor" is haunting him to become more and more of a monster.

D. Lawride September 25th, 2009 5:46 AM

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?
Most of the main are flawed in multiple ways. I'll start by Nidorina from Poison Rocket Rebel, who will just launch into trouble without even questioning the danger, and even her attitude can get cold over time after meeting people. Let's say she doesn't believe in others, she believes in herself.
On the other one, I won't mention the anime characters, they're not my business despite being protagonists, but I've got quite a few similar to Nidorina, while David's flaw is to be too peaceful to get nervous. :p

JX Valentine September 25th, 2009 6:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haz (Post 5152299)
Sorry to be off-topic but I have a question and a slight problem.

I'm with the Dragon Adopters forum right and I noticed a HP fic that was badly written and sought to help the author. Although he has followed some my advice, he refuses to add description and won't write it in word. I've been flamed for giving numurous advice but by other people. So should I give up helping or stick to my guns?

In case your wondering here is the thread where its happening: http://www.dragonadopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=57479.msg1745676#new

To add to Citrinin, as I've stated in that guide apparently no one reads anymore, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Cliché? Yes. True? Very yes. Of course, I'd encourage anyone to say their part (read: give advice) as long as they're civil about it, but the thing is, ultimately, all you're giving is advice. You can't force advice on an author (unless, of course, their story is unreadable because they seem to think raping the English language is a good thing, at which point, please beat them with a dictionary), and if they're stubborn about it and call in their groupies, it just creates unnecessary drama. The drama might turn the author off your advice, sure, but mostly, drama is just, in general, something you want to avoid simply because drama feeds into drama. As in, the more someone jumps in to flame and flail like a moron, the more other people want to jump in and do the same. As in, it's not the author you have to worry about. It's the rest of the flipping community.

Not to mention you can't really attempt to force an author to do anything, as Citrinin said. Trust me. I've tried. The most you can do is say your part as clearly as possible and, after a few tries, if the author still blows you off, throw your hands in the air and find someone else to review. After all, would you rather talk to a brick wall or someone who actually might be remotely receptive of your advice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrinin (Post 5151874)
How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?

As much as possible. Viola and Rose are doormats. Veronica is a nympho. Sebastian and Benvolio are disturbingly possessive. Bill is... well, Bill.

Feign September 25th, 2009 6:42 AM

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?

Well currently, I'm using a canon characters as the protagonists, but they're not really main. I think Ash is flawed in and of himself, just for being two-dimensional. Man I really gotta find time to write more. :S But so far, in my fic, I haven't really placed importance on any specific character except for the antagonist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valentine (Post 5152669)
As much as possible. Viola and Rose are doormats. Veronica is a nympho. Sebastian and Benvolio are disturbingly possessive. Bill is... well, Bill.

Is that a bad thing? XD :P >.> *hides*

Bay September 25th, 2009 7:14 AM

I still read your reviewing guide time to time, Val! D:

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?
Bunny is flawed in that she can be hot heated if you provoke her and very emotional if the situation she's in is too stressful for her. Jenny's flaw is she can leave grudges for a long time, as shown the relationship between her and her uncle. Jacob's flaws are that he cares about his reputation a lot (hence not wanting to go to police) and is willing to not let anyone stop him between him and his goals (him having a gun and shooting Bunny and Matt).

Feign September 25th, 2009 9:45 AM

Okay, well I found it.

Now it was suggested that I do a crackfic, I think I'll try to start it, as soon as I finish this next chapter of my current fic, as it has been too long (though it is almost half done XD).

Magic Schoolbus meets pokemon
Oregon Trail meets Pokemon
Hannibal meets Pokemon

were my early conceptions, Val suggested the Oregon Trail one.

Negrek September 25th, 2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haz (Post 5152299)
Sorry to be off-topic but I have a question and a slight problem.

I'm with the Dragon Adopters forum right and I noticed a HP fic that was badly written and sought to help the author. Although he has followed some my advice, he refuses to add description and won't write it in word. I've been flamed for giving numurous advice but by other people. So should I give up helping or stick to my guns?

In case your wondering here is the thread where its happening: http://www.dragonadopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=57479.msg1745676#new

It sucks that they jumped on you, but you kind of brought it on yourself; complaining about chapter length, of all things, and following it up with the suggestion that they fix their "grammer" isn't likely going to net you a lot of respect pretty much anywhere. As other people have said, it would be best to drop it because it's clear you're not going to get anywhere... but tbh I think your review could use a bit of improvement itself.

Haz September 25th, 2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citrinin (Post 5152356)
If you stick to your guns, here's what will happen. You will further get flamed, despite the level of logic you use, which will further cause the author to think that you are wrong. So, you would have just wasted your time trying to give help, making people angrier at you and achieving nothing.

It's unfortunate, and I sympathise with your plight, but if someone doesn't want help, they don't have to take it. Sure, it doesn't make their fic better, but you don't need to worry about that. Ultimately, it's their problem. Instead, help someone who wants it, and is therefore far more likely to deserve it. If they're going to make strawman arguments like "Hey if it dosen't have to be perfect, it's OK already" (not to mention implicitly accepting their story being mediocre), then don't worry. And, I have to say it - "I only want comments about the story not how it's written" was lol-worthy. ;D

Yeah, you right, I'm not going to comment on it futhur because morepeople have flamed me :/

Sgt Shock September 25th, 2009 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haz (Post 5152299)
Sorry to be off-topic but I have a question and a slight problem.

I'm with the Dragon Adopters forum right and I noticed a HP fic that was badly written and sought to help the author. Although he has followed some my advice, he refuses to add description and won't write it in word. I've been flamed for giving numurous advice but by other people. So should I give up helping or stick to my guns?

In case your wondering here is the thread where its happening: http://www.dragonadopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=57479.msg1745676#new

It saddens me deeply to see that. You stuck your neck out to help him and he takes the axe and tries to cut your head off. I'll be happy enough that someone would be reading my fan fiction and have enough sense to actually care. It isn't fair to you and it you shouldn't be flamed for something that initially is going to help the author out in a long run. I'll be glad to fix any of my mistakes. You stick to your guns though. He is going to be glad that you did when he actually attracts people that he didn't before. Believe me. I know. :) Keep strong, soldier.

Haz September 25th, 2009 12:33 PM

You think so? He keeps going on about how he's 10 years old and its meant to be crap *coughn00bcough*

Negrek September 25th, 2009 12:36 PM

What do you expect to accomplish by continuing?

Haz September 25th, 2009 12:44 PM

Well, satisfaction of helping someone? Nothing I guess. Good point, I'm over it. I try to help and its thrown back in my face =/

Misheard Whisper September 25th, 2009 12:47 PM

Tbh, I've got a good mind to join that forum just so I can give that author a piece of my mind, de gozaru! Sure, Valentine said you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, but that horse just turned around and kicked you in the teeth, de gozatta. Then the other cowboys (extended metaphor sorry) came up and beat you up for apparently mistreating the horse, when all you were doing was offering it a drink out of the kindness of your heart, de gozatta. In your position, I would carry on attempting to help the author, but that's just because I'm stubborn, de gozaru. Jax is probably right, de gozaru.

Haz September 25th, 2009 12:52 PM

I posted saying how I was trying to help him and it was just constructive critism and it he was too pig-headed to see that, I going to stop trying. People are so rude there.

Citrinin September 25th, 2009 2:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky
Tbh, I've got a good mind to join that forum just so I can give that author a piece of my mind! Sure, Valentine said you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, but that horse just turned around and kicked you in the teeth. Then the other cowboys (extended metaphor sorry) came up and beat you up for apparently mistreating the horse, when all you were doing was offering it a drink out of the kindness of your heart.

I don't know about you, but if that happened to me, I'd probably run rather than stay my ground and fight.

Aaaaaanyway,

How flawed is/are your main protagonist(s)?
(I'm answering this to say Bevan's flaws at the start, which he gradually replaces with other flaws throughout the story.)

Bevan is an upper-class brat, with a sense of entitlement. He's used to everything coming to him because of his father's connections, and he likes it. However, he hates his father, who is a domineering bully, and these "daddy issues" make him insecure around others of authority, which has gotten him into trouble. Serious trouble. Furthermore, he has troubles with trust after his mother was taken away from him.

JX Valentine September 25th, 2009 3:28 PM

You know, I finally went over there and took a good look at more than just the flaming, and I have to side with Negrek here. I mean, seriously. You start off by practically flaming the author to begin with with three tiny lines that point out no specifics or offer any sort of advice on how to improve on what he's doing. I mean, "That's too short to be a chapter?" Really? First off, you've got to learn that it's not quantity you're looking for. It's quality. It's perfectly possible to have a chapter that's less than a thousand words so long as you say everything you need to say in a decent manner.

Then, you go and essentially "set" the chapter for them without further explaining what it is you did to correct it and why you did that. I'm sorry, but what?

Haz, I want you to assume something for a moment, and it's a very unfortunate thing. Assume that the author doesn't know the things you're trying to tell them. You can't just show them or leave it at one line. You actually have to explain things to them in detail, starting from a description of what it is you want them to do and ending with a description of why it's better that way or why it's a standard. Otherwise, they won't understand what you want them to do. (Notice how the author basically copied your post and pasted it into theirs but didn't touch the rest? Yeah, um, that's most likely because they don't know what it is you corrected and how to correct things themselves in later chapters. Not to mention a reviewer =/= a beta. Don't do things for them. Explain the basics so they can fix things themselves later on.)

Also, for the love of all things good, please proofread your reviews. You try to correct the author's grammar, and aside from the fact that you skipped over a lot of them anyway (namely the ones associated with punctuation and capitalization in dialogue), you go and misspell "grammar." Look, it's cool that you want to improve the English language, but if you're going to comment on someone else's use of it, you really have to be careful about your own because otherwise, you'll come off sounding like a hypocrite.

Lastly, not to mention, you don't actually mention much about the story itself. Really, was his story so uninteresting you couldn't be bothered to say anything about the plot or characterization? Yes, I sound like I'm siding with the author, but a grammatical commentary should only be a portion of the whole review. Not only that, but you also point out chapter length, which is something that can be picked up and noted with only a brief glance at the story. You don't mention anything positive (if there is anything) or anything about the story itself. As far as the author is concerned, all you did was read it to have something to nitpick apart, not for the actual content of it (and the execution thereof).

In general, yeah, I can see why the author reacted the way he did: because you gave him an opening to do so. I mean, if you told him exactly why you correct grammar in a fic (because it's easier for people to read and because, just like you don't half-ass rock climbing, you don't half-ass writing, even if it's a hobby), he'd have less of a reason to argue. (And if he still did, he isn't worth your time.)

I'd hate to be extremely blunt about this, but it's a problem I've been seeing now and then with PFF&P reviewers lately too. Look, it's fine and dandy that you want to point out that someone screwed up, but you can't just stop halfway (or even less than that) and be done. You actually have to go all the way and do some explanations. Otherwise, the mistake's just going to happen again and again because how exactly do you propose someone fix something when they don't know how or why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkling Dragon
Sure, Valentine said you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, but that horse just turned around and kicked you in the teeth, de gozatta.

Seriously, if the groupies gang up on you, chances are, you'll want to back down because you've got nothing to gain. The author won't listen to you because he'll listen to the groupies more than you, and you'll just make them want to flame you more by insisting on coming in. If you try to fight back, unless you happen to be an epic member of the community, you're going to end up looking like an idiot.

Moreover, again, horse. Water. Can't force it to drink. How far do you have to go to force people to see things your way? By ripping them apart too? Imagine this. You're going along, and all of a sudden, someone says you're doing something wrong because it's just not to their tastes. So, you go along a bit further because you might not know what they're talking about, and all of a sudden, they jump on you and try to ram their point down your throat. Not exactly pleasant, right? Same concept. Even if the others in the comm are flaming you, just pushing your issue will continue to piss them off.

And seriously, if they're really flaming you, use the report button. Every forum has one, and most forums have mods and rules against flaming. Instead of whining that you're being flamed, go tell a mod and see what they do about it. If they don't do anything, find a better community.

At the risk of sounding hypocritical, has anyone (besides Bay) read Reviewing and You, or was that just a rant to myself?

Sgt Shock September 25th, 2009 3:38 PM

Essentially both of you could have handled it better. I actually looked over the review and you can't force people do anything. Yes, I agree like I said in my first post that he should taken the advice but you can't force people to take it either. You can keep giving advice but keep it moderately mild. Remember this is typed out so whatever you say when doing criticism might come off to be rather cold and subjective. Though it would in the author's best interest to revise it, don't force nothing on him. Give him positive comments as well as things to work on. I should have mentioned this earlier when I made my first point.

Though the writer may be immature (to a person's standards), you can't make the person do anything or they will hate you for it. It's like backing an animal in a cage and not expecting for it bite. They want to be appeased.

The flaming was a bit ridiculous. I agree. You can either quit or help him become better. If you truly want to help him to become better go for it, if he doesn't accept your help, drop it. I think I was a bit unclear in my last post.


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