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Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 10:37 AM

Here is another topic i would like to bring to light. The same with Garchomp, i would possibly like to see this tested on how it would be in OU WITHOUT SOUL DEW.

Without that item, i think it would be viable in OU and would see use without "breaking" or over centralizing anything.

Firstly im going to give credit to Maniaclyrasist from smogon, for making the post ive quoted below and i feel it best describes the details of it.

If you want to view the original post on Smogon, the link is in my signature. (or will be appearing there shortly)





SO BEFORE YOU POST READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING FRIKKIN QUOTE, IM SAYING THIS NOW BECAUSE I GOT A LOAD OF BS POSTS ON THE GARCHOMP THREAD WHERE PEOPLE DIDNT READ, SO I WARN YOU NOW, I WILL BE MAJORLY PISSED IF YOU DONT, THANKS =)




1.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Maniaclyrasist from Smogon
This is the follow-up thread to the Eon Tournament which was hosted to determine the viability of [email protected] in the OU metagame

First let me start with some information on both pokemon.

Latias and Latios are both base 600 Dragon/Psychic types which posses the ability Levitate which gives them an immunity to Ground moves, Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
They both also share a similar movepool albeit slight differences, their Base stats are listed as following:

Latias
Hp: 80
Attack: 80
Defense: 90
Special Attack: 110
Special Defense: 130
Speed: 110

Latios
Hp: 80
Attack: 90
Defense: 80
Special Attack: 130
Special Defense: 110
Speed: 110

Unique moves for each are also listed below

Latias: Wish, Mist Ball, Charm
Latios: Dragon Dance, Luster Purge, and Memento

Weaknesses: Bug, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, Dark< Common

Now the main question is, are these pokemon OU material? Well that is what the Eon Tournament was hosted to determine.

Just to give you a brief idea of the tourney rules.

The tournament was comprised of 64 players and the rules allowed the players to use Latias and Latios on their teams if they so wished.

At first glance, we see Latios' amazing stats and movepool and almost immediately think “why are we even considering this pokemon for OU play”, Well this isn’t exactly the case, the Lati’s movepool is good but yet limited in the sense that you know it will almost always be Special based except for the Dragon Dance set which will be discussed a bit later.

Latios has few special sets, which can be used effectively in the OU metagame, they consist of the Calm Minder, the Choice Scarfer and the infamous Choice Specs set.
All of them have their own counters as with any pokemon that can run multiple sets although it is worth mentioning that any special set lacking the weak Hp Fire will have problems with steel types.

I will talk in detail about each of these sets and their effects on the D/P OU metagame.

Calm Mind

Firstly the Calm Mind set

Latios (M) @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Psychic
- Thunderbolt/Grass Knot/Hp Fire/Refresh/Safeguard

This set has a lot of potential to do good damage in OU especially when its threats have been taken out.


The set is indeed devastating at times but doesn’t differ much from any other recovering Calm Minder aside from the type coverage it has. It still has pretty much the same counters and although it is a fast pokemon maxing at 350 speed it still has to fear the ever-common Choice Scarf user. Latios’ movepool also presents another issue, Calm Mind and Recover are both staple moves for this set which leaves only room for two attacking moves and I’m pretty sure we all know you cant cover every pokemon in 2 moves.

If Latios lacks Grass Knot Tyranitar walks all over it, if it lacks Hp Fire it has problems with steel types and then without Refresh it fears status moves which would pretty much spell the end of it. Face it people Latios cannot have every move at once and it’s pretty clear every set of combinations can be countered.


Choice Specs


Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid/Modest
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt/ Psychic/Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam/ Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Hp Fire

The infamous Choice Specs set, capable of dealing quite a lot of damage to any team and quoted as a better Specs Mence. This is true in some aspects but there is one area where it does fall down in comparison.

It’s lack of a reliable Fire attack means it has problems with steels and in retrospect has even more counters than Specs Mence because of it.
It was also argued that Specs Latios’ damage output is way higher than the OU metagame is capable of handling but this clearly isn’t the case. As we can see it’s not much higher than some of the pokemon that currently reside in OU.

Specs Latios, who will arguably most of the time choose Timid as its nature are hardly out damaging Modest Specs Mence, which is the most common form, and if Latios so chooses to go Modest then its damage output is going to be the same as Modest Heatran or for laughs the much less seen Modest Glaceon who is actually allowed in UU.
Going Modest also has its obvious drawbacks, of not out speeding pokemon that could pose threats to it like the common Gengar and Garchomp.

Specs Latios would indeed be a major threat if let into OU, however it is definitely not uncounterable and just like any other pokemon has its pros and cons.




Choice Scarf


Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt/ Psychic/Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam/ Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Hp Fire

Same moves as the last set with quite a different purpose. With this set Latias loses the raw power from its Choice Specs set for Revenge killing properties with Choice Scarf.
This set is probably the least of ones worries as it is walled even easier than any of its previously mentioned sets.

Although it makes for a pretty good revenge killer overall it’s still a pretty generic Choice Scarf pokemon. It does have the luxury of out speeding almost everything in the game due to its base 110 speed but I don’t see this set outclassing other common Scarfed Special attackers pokemon like Gengar who although doesn’t hit as hard has moves like Hypnosis and Destiny Bond to make up for it. And Heatran who already out speeds most pokemon, has the same damage output with Overheat, has arguably better resists and Sandstorm immunity.



This pretty much summarizes the Special sets; so I will now go on to mention the Dragon Dance set. Firstly let me start off by saying the set is quite mediocre as Salamence and Dragonite do it way better. The Dragon Dance set does have a few things going for it in comparison to previous sets.
Its surprise factor and the fact that it can seriously damage normal switch-ins to its Special variants is pretty valuable coupled with the fact that it’s one of the few Dragon Dancing Dragons that do not have a 4x weakness to Ice. Don’t let these pros fool you into thinking that this set may be better than the Special variants, but it does have its merits.

The set and some calcs for the set are listed below.


Dragon Dance

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Recover

Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 342HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 98-115%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 404HP/256Def (4EVs/min) Tyranitar: 82-98%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 282HP/176Def (4EVs/min) Weavile: 103-121%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 688HP/130Def (fair/min) Blissey: 57-67%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 364HP/336Def (max/min) Registeel: 70-83%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Earthquake on a 364HP/299Def (max/12EVs) CB Metagross: 78-93%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 327HP/186Def (fair/min) Scarf cross: 84-99%
Adamant, 306 Atk Latios using a Life Orb, Dragon Danced Dragon Claw on a 357HP/226Def (min/min) Scarf chomp: 127-151%

Yes the damage output is nice against Latios’ usual counters but when the opponent becomes aware of your set then this moveset can be pretty much called dead weight as it is walled and beaten by the usual Garchomp, Salamence and Dragonite counters which everyone is forced to carry due to how common each of the 3 previously mentioned pokemon are.

No logs of the Dragon Dancer’s usage were used as for the few times it was actually used in the tournament it died within 1-2 subsequent turns.


Some people mentioned that [email protected] is probably going to a very overcentralising force in OU but after comparing it to the top 15 pokemon on the Shoddy List there are definitely some problems with that assumption

Here is the list for February and I have mentioned how [email protected] stands up against each of these pokemon.



1: Garchomp

[email protected] is faster but we all know that it can’t switch in and there is always the ever present fear of Garchomp being Scarfed if [email protected] is in first.

2: Gengar

Gengar and [email protected] tie in base speed and a Timid Gengar is capable of dealing 74% minimum to the standard 6 hp 0 Sdef Latios and 53% minimum to a 252 hp 0 Sdef Latias, both capable 2HKOs and this is without any boosting items. [email protected] still then has to worry about moves like Hypnosis and Destiny Bond, which are both capable to taking out [email protected] for possibly the entire game.

3: Blissey

Blissey is pretty much a solid counter to most [email protected] sets and should have no problem crippling the ones it cannot kill directly.

4: Gyarados

Gyarados of course cannot switch into the Lati twins but the Lati twins for the most part cannot switch into a Gyarados fearing a Dragon Danced Ice Fang, which can OHKO, and even if Gyarados doesn’t have Ice Fang then Stone Edge already deals a hefty amount of damage being an easy 2HKO.

5: Tyranitar

Bane of most Latias sets being able to Pursuit or Crunch it into oblivion and taking very little from any move barring Hp Fighting, Grass Knot and Draco Meteor which do not OHKO regardless. Can probably be listed as a pretty safe counter.

6: Lucario

Not one of [email protected] greatest 1 vs. 1 matches due to Lucario’s Steel typing and its ability to do massive damage with Life Orbed Crunch, Extremespeed or a Choice Specs Dark Pulse. [email protected] does get some merit for being able to switch into its Stab attack on the Physical set and any attack besides Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball on the Choice Specs set.

7: Heatran

Heatran makes a decent switch-in to any Latias lacking Surf or Earthquake. It’s Modest Specs Dragon Pulse can OHKO and a Scarfed Dragon Pulse will 2HKO even from Timid barring a fairly defensive spread on the Lati twins, even then they still have to fear Explosion which is a definite OHKO. All is not bad however as they wall any other move on its set and the Calm Mind variants can possibly set up on these same moves that they resist.

8: Bronzong

Bronzong walls the Latis completely and can do massive Damage with Gyro Ball although this can be recovered off due to its low PP. Bronzong still gets Hypnosis and Explosion as ways of dealing with the dragons though.

9: Salamence

Pretty much the same case as with Garchomp, neither can switch into the other without risk.

10: Metagross

Metagross take resists [email protected]’s STABed moves and poses an immediate threat to them with either Meteor Mash or Pursuit. Which can OHKO depending on the [email protected]’s EV spreads and with the help of a Choice Band or Life Orb.

11: Infernape

[email protected] walls any set without U-turn, which can hardly be considered common and they are also faster. Pretty good match up for the Eon twins here.

12: Weavile

Capable of OHKOing a switching Latias with STAB CB Pursuit of OHKOing them if they stay in with a STABed CB Ice Punch, it’s also faster than the Lati twins which doesn’t do them any good.

13: Swampert

This is one instance where [email protected] will win the majority of the time as long as Swampert doesn’t carry Ice Punch, which can 2hko. It fears an OHKO from Specs Draco Meteor however, so it’s something that the Lati’s have no trouble dealing with as they resist pretty much every move it has to throw at them.


14: Skarmory

Another match up favoring the Eon twins who can 2HKO with Specs Draco Meteor despite the resistance and OHKO with moves like Thunderbolt. Skarmory’s Brave Bird also 3hkoes them, so not much in favour of the big metal bird.

15: Gliscor

Ice Fang the best move Gliscor can muster against the Lati twins is a mere 3HKO which doesn’t say a lot for it in terms of stopping the Dragons which can easily OHKO it or possibly even set up on it depending on it’s set.

Ok so with all this information pointing towards the unbanning of the Eon twins I really think it's about time we take some stance regarding their tier status and decide if these pokemon will really be allowed into the OU tier.

I feel that sums up most of my feelings about them.

Now, all the above is without soul dew. If this item is banned when used on [email protected], do you think the Lati twins would be viable pokemon in the ou tier ?


If i get an affirmative from the majority of S&M/ Competetive battlers. Id like not to go through the same process as Chomp, by that, i mean by them actually being tested in an tournaments matches AND OU standard matches. Do you think this would be a good idea ?


So yeah, opinions.

Random Guy May 1st, 2008 12:24 PM

You make a good point. I've always felt that without Soul Dew, the Lati twins do get pretty beaten in ubers, sort of. I wouldn't mind seeing that Lati twins in the OU tier of battling since what you've mentioned before really does give good reasons. Common weaknesses, wallable and common counters all say for me that the Latis should be moved down.

AluminumKnight May 1st, 2008 12:28 PM

Latios has an iffy attack stat. Could you run a mixed set with effectiveness?

ABYAY May 1st, 2008 12:30 PM

I think the Lati twins are in Uber for one particular reason; Soul Dew. An instant sp.atk and sp.def boost is a huge addition without setup; basically it's a Calm Mind without a move being used and without having to waste a turn setting it up.

As long as Soul Dew is never used, then [email protected] can potentially be OU material. Let us look at why.

They are each 600 base stat pokemon, also like Dragonite, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Celebi, and a few others. Also, its movepool isn't THAT amazing. The only things very useful are highly expected. The 3rd thing is weaknesses: Bug, Ice, Dragon, Dark, and Ghost. 4 of its 5 weaknesses are commonly seen. Ice is by pretty much everything that can utilize it, Dragon is by the OU dragons and a few other specific pokemon, Dark is by the likes of Weavile and Tyranitar, and Ghost is by all 4 of the OU ghosts. This means the the twins have some rough times in OU.

The Lati twins, however, have some neat tricks. Have you ever seen usual sweepers pop a Wish out of nowhere and heal teammate? How about a sweeper Psycho Shifting its Burn off onto an opposing sweeper? These are just two absurd options, but the Lati twins assist with supporting as well.

From the looks, we can try them in OU for a month, just like how we moved Garchomp to Ubers for some time.

Anti May 1st, 2008 12:33 PM

I remember reading through an old Smogon thread about this when some idiot was saying this should happen in Advance. either way, there was an interesting comparison made to Raikou, who even in this generation can be a pretty nasty sweeper. It was amazing to me how both twins totally blew Raikou out of the water...like Regice vs. Mamoswine in special walling bad. When you think about it, it really is a way better Raikou...just throwing that out there.

I'm going to withhold my judgment, but I hope shoddy doesn't get any bright ideas about just shooting this into the metagame and "testing" it.

I will say that the last part of that post (about the top 15) is only looking at one side of the picture. The poster mentions how neither of them can switch into a decent amount of those threats, but I find it funny that those threats have an even harder time switching into the twins. The list acts like we're trying to counter the pokemon when, when in fact we are trying to counter the twins. That's my problem with that section.

EDIT: about the mixed set, I look forward to running a better MixMence with Latios if it is tested :) It also has potential to be awesome on stall teams...or Latias does at least.

Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 12:40 PM

Mixed Draco meteor/Dragon Claw/Hidden power Fire/ Earthquake

Hits everything in the game for at least neutral. EQ is basically for heatran, either way its getting walled by Cress and Zong, who actually takes pitiful damage from HP Fire.



Also Anti, i use Wish/Protect/Dragon pulse/Grass Knot or Thunderbolt on Latias, it may interest you.

luke May 1st, 2008 12:40 PM

So, I'm on the fence. I'd love for there to be a test here on PC so I can use my awesome IV'd Latias I've been dying to use.

Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueberry (Post 3547255)
So, I'm on the fence. I'd love for there to be a test here on PC so I can use my awesome IV'd Latias I've been dying to use.

Somebody can Organize a tourney possibly ? Where players are allowed to use [email protected]


Latios suffers from moveset syndrome imo, it gets walled by something or other no matter which moves you run. e.g Without Grass Knot T-Tar kills you and without Thunderbolt, gyarados and what not really laughs.


As for Latias, i can see it as a nice countering utility, to infernape, possible Gyarados etc. Wish support is sexy too.

Anti May 1st, 2008 12:46 PM

I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

Sora_8920 May 1st, 2008 1:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3547271)
I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

You know WishBliss even had to defend itself with Wish, so I'm guessing this is the same way. I will test Roost, though, to see how it does.

Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3547271)
I just really hate how this absolutely focuses on everything negative and pretty much ignores its useful resistances, good movepool, and all its other positive traits.

Really though, I can't wait to see them in OUs if they test them since they counter Gyarados and Infernape like crazy and can break a lot of walls. Sounds like fun :)

I'm not necessarily against it yet since I haven't given it enough thought, but the argument here is much weaker than the one with Garchomp IMO.

EDIT: It can even Wish and provide a fighting/ground/water/electric/fire resist (or in ground's case, an immunity). I look forward to testing this thing :)

EDIT 2: You know this looks like fun:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Def/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psychic / Dragon Pulse
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Wish / Roost

Laughs off Pursuit attempts with Reflect. Wish can be passed and Toxic lays the hammer down on a lot of things, especially dragons and Pursuiters who want to rain on your parade. It's basically Cresselia with more weaknesses and resistances, but better attacking abilities and recovery (and lower Defense, which is quite important).

Shame its epically walled by steels XP


But yeah, it does look fun to use, *sigh* why cant it get a decent fire move =[

boo836 May 1st, 2008 1:08 PM

The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell if [email protected] is holding sowl dew. That's why it's in uber. To fix this, we would have to have proof, like lefties or life orb then.

ABYAY May 1st, 2008 1:10 PM

I have a question: Wouldn't it seem more safe to use Recover > Roost? I don't know if Roost negates Levitate or not, so that's why I ask that.

Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 1:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo836 (Post 3547327)
The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell if [email protected] is holding sowl dew. That's why it's in uber. To fix this, we would have to have proof, like lefties or life orb then.

It should be obvious really, i think you may be able to tell with the amount of damage it takes and deals. Also damage calcs are our friends to help with that, so anyone found to be using Soul Dew will be automatically Dq'd.


Spec set should be obvious, it has to switch out after getting walled, due to being stuck into one attack.


Lefties and Life Orb again that should be obvious.



@ABYAY, no Roost does not negate Levitate ;)

Cloud_85 May 1st, 2008 1:13 PM

Yup, He's walled really easy by any Steel poke... Imo Dragon Pulse will be better on your set, but He's an awesome pokemon ...

ABYAY May 1st, 2008 1:18 PM

Alright, thanks Azelf; I personally think it should though...I mean, how does it Roost without landing, I dunno. Still, Recover/Roost, use it whether you like heart scales or TMs more.

I know that the existance of the Lati twins will cause some increase in Dark moves, so expect more Weavile and Tyranitar!

Dark Azelf May 1st, 2008 1:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABYAY (Post 3547354)
Alright, thanks Azelf; I personally think it should though...I mean, how does it Roost without landing, I dunno. Still, Recover/Roost, use it whether you like heart scales or TMs more.

I know that the existance of the Lati twins will cause some increase in Dark moves, so expect more Weavile and Tyranitar!

Dont forget, how common its other weaks are, Dark, Ghost, Ice, Dragon << Its almost guaranteed youll find one of those on a team.


And bug, but thats pretty much Yanmega and Heracross really XP

Xairmo May 1st, 2008 1:27 PM

In my opinion, without Soul Dew [email protected] will be a completely viable OU pokemon. If you check to see what its stats max out to, they look like most common OU Special Sweeper/Walls. The only thing that made them Uber was the outrageous boost given by Soul Dew. And its not unbeatable either, there are quite a few reliable and common counters.

Divine~Deoxys May 1st, 2008 1:38 PM

You have got an awesome point, i have tried to post a thread questioning this today as wel, but it hasn't come through, and i think that they shouldn't be uber as they are defeatable by quite a lot of pokes, not just ubers, and therefore should be OU pokes.

Anti May 1st, 2008 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3547366)
In my opinion, without Soul Dew [email protected] will be a completely viable OU pokemon. If you check to see what its stats max out to, they look like most common OU Special Sweeper/Walls. The only thing that made them Uber was the outrageous boost given by Soul Dew. And its not unbeatable either, there are quite a few reliable and common counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiddo999 (Post 3547384)
You have got an awesome point, i have tried to post a thread questioning this today as wel, but it hasn't come through, and i think that they shouldn't be uber as they are defeatable by quite a lot of pokes, not just ubers, and therefore should be OU pokes.

I'd really like to hear all of those counters.

I quite honestly think people are jumping on the bandwagon WAY too quickly.

Steels are their biggest problem, but I think we are again jumping to conclusions too quickly. Let's look at common steels now:

Jirachi

Physical Jirachi gets totally owned by Latios, and it can only U-Turn which can be recovered off anyways. Special Jirachi can't hurt Latiod while it can CM up and start drowning it with HP Fire. Jirachi is usually EVed to take physical hits, so I don't think it's going to be a good switch into Latios.

Forretress

Obviously HP fire is going to assassinate Forretress.

Skarmory

Same as Forretress lol

Bronzong

I'm not as convinced this walls Latios as you guys are. HP Fire will do a decent amount of damage and Sub can block Hypnosis and give a free turn to CM while it uses Gyro Ball to break the sub. Speaking of which, Gyro Ball has horrible PP and can be easily stalled out of PP (as Zong can't hurt it any other way, lol Earthquake). It can just recover off damage and stall it while attacking with HP fire when possible. Resttalk Zong could be more problematic, but with only a 1/3 chance of gyro Ball being used, it's anything but reliable while Latios can fight back with HP fire.

It obviously is going to have trouble with Bronzong, but I think it could very well be beaten. you must not forget the possibility of Reflect as well.

Metagross

Metagross will probably survive two HP Fire attacks, but Reflect can again cause trouble and any damage from Spikes is going to put Metagross in an extremely difficult position to counter Latios. Pursuit is just a weaker Meteor Mash if it doesn't switch, and with Reflect, that could very well happen. Really, Gross has trouble surviving the attacks, which worries me a bit.

Magnezone

Obviously, Latios is going to beat this.

Heatran

By far the best steel to counter Latios, since only EQ threatens it and you won't see that much.

_______________

I would say Gross and Zong could be considered counters, but they would have a lot of trouble. Specs variants of Latios best both really.

Considering I typed this up on the fly, there are probably a lot of errors, but steels don't shut them down by any means. We must not forget that besides Metagross and heatran, no steel poses a huge attacking threat, and Latias and Latios are fairly bulky (especially Latias obviously).

The diversity of its movepool means that countering it with about anything but Heatran is especially risky. Pursuiters are at risk of taking Choice specs attacks BTW.

Not a huge fan of this idea, since it really doesn't have a ton of counters...basically Heatran and Snorlax, and perhaps Regice.

Think about it...Blissey in standard play doesn't play with Psych Up and whatever Uber Blissey uses. Standard Seismic Toss/Ice Beam/Aromatherapy/Softboiled blissey (as well as Wish Bliss) are gong to get destroyed by a CM Latios or even Latias. Even Regice will strguggle to Ice Beam it after a few CMs, and Psych Up Regice is very very rare.

Snorlax with Crunch seems reliable enough though, and Heatran will, as we mentioned, wall all non-EQ sets.

I'm not saying there aren't other counters, but I'd certainly like to hear of them.

That argument just isn't convincing at all really. I'm have yet to make up my mind, but I know what way I'm leaning right now.

shedinjask May 1st, 2008 2:17 PM

Hm, I remember when I suggested Latios @ Specs Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/HP Fire/EQ. A beast, really. Kills Registeel before Registeel kills it, same with Heatran and Empoleon. Still, you'll be countered if you don't predict perfectly, like with every Choicer.

I'm all for trying it out for a while.

Supreme Dirt May 1st, 2008 2:35 PM

There is a simple way to hit [email protected] with Earthquake, but you have to sacrifice a turn.
Give Bronzong Heatproof and Skill Swap. Heatproof protects it against HP fire, and if they have substitute, you could Skill Swap.
This strategy would work alot better if Bronzong were faster, though.
And I only ever use a Physical Jirachi, which would become more common should the [email protected] be moved to OU.

Anti May 1st, 2008 3:13 PM

For the record, I support testing it too, but I think this is going to be a lot more difficult than Garchomp or Wobbuffet were. Latios and Latias are absolutely awesome pokemon. I fail to see how they are "easily defeated by other pokes" and whatever else has been said. The argument for this didn't really impress me, so I think I'm going to stay neutral on this.

I will say that we shouldn't rush to any kind of conclusion too quickly - just look what happened with our friend Wobbuffet.

Xairmo May 1st, 2008 3:20 PM

I vote for testing [email protected] as we did Garchomp. I think we could save a whole lot of time just by settling it this way. I mean look back at the whole Garchomp arguement. We argue for days on end and got practically no where. We can say what we believe will happen but we won't really know until we try. So here comes my giant cliche - Actions speak louder than words. That quote doesnt exactly fit in this situation but close enough >.>

Anti May 1st, 2008 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xairmo (Post 3547630)
I vote for testing [email protected] as we did Garchomp. I think we could save a whole lot of time just by settling it this way. I mean look back at the whole Garchomp arguement. We argue for days on end and got practically no where. We can say what we believe will happen but we won't really know until we try. So here comes my giant cliche - Actions speak louder than words. That quote doesnt exactly fit in this situation but close enough >.>

I agree and disagree with you.

It's true that you have to see how it will actually do in a real battle, but the reason the Garchomp argument went nowhere is because people kept annoying us with pathetic "arguments" against it being moved to ubers.

I think testing is necessary, but I think discussion is just as important. A lot of times we don't say what we believe, we say what is true. For example, you don't need a test to prove Forretress isn't going to be beating HP Fire Latios anytime soon.

Xairmo May 1st, 2008 3:38 PM

True there are some aspects that are common knowledge that need no testing, but if it seems to be a widspread agreement that testing is needed then why no start now?

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 12:49 AM

Okay, I didn't read the whole thread in PC, but I did read the threads on Smogon about the [email protected] testing. Basically here are my thoughts:

First, what does [email protected] bring to the metagame?

Latios: 80/90/80/110/130/110
Latias: 80/90/80/110/110/130

Weaknesses: Ice (2x), Dark (2x), Bug (2x), Dragon (2x), Ghost (2x)
Resistances: Fire (0.5x), Water (0.5x), Grass (0.5x), Electric (0.5x), Fighting (0.5x), Psychic (0.5x), Ground (Immune)

Right from the start the Dark, Bug and Ghost weaknesses hurt it as it can't effectively deal with Gengar, and would be countered by random Pursuiters, especially Tyranitar. Heracross would also put a big hole with Megahorn.

No 4x Ice weakness. No revenge killing with Mamoswine/Weavile. No random Ice Beams/HP Ice would screw you up. That is arguably the biggest advantage [email protected] has over their fellow dragons and other special walls, and could be used for Sp.Walling.

The resistances may seem great, but apart from Fire and Grass, most of the resistances do not seem good enough. For one thing, Electric and Water types commonly pack Ice attacks, and Fighting types do have an SE move against [email protected]

Now on to the movesets. As explained in the thread in the Policy Review in Smogon, each of the respective offensive movesets have their own pros and cons. CMLatios has moveslot syndrome, Specs and Scarf Latios are outclassed by some pokemon in general, and are easily walled.
To add on, Choiced pokemon with a Pursuit weakness are a great liability in D/P as explained by Great Sage, Ttar and stuff would come in and Pursuit Latios to death.
The common counters for [email protected] in Ubers will be more threatening to them in OU.

What the thread and the Eon tournament did not show is a clear indication of Latias' abilities. A minimal number of Latias were used in the Eon tournament, and therefore cannot be properly analysed.

Latias has access to Wish and a higher SD, something Latios cannot boast. Both Latis have Roar, Latias utilises it better able to phaze Calm Minders and such. Latias, as a more defensive pokemon can use Reflect and Light Screen to ppass. Therefore both of them have almost completely different roles.

I feel that coth of them should be allowed in testing in OU WITHOUT Soul Dew, but this is not the right time for it with all the furore over Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent, Deoxys-E (MS still thinks its uber...).

Ársa May 2nd, 2008 12:56 AM

Yay, I love these discussion threads. =P

Hey, just a thought guys, could we hold a small tournament which allows the use of [email protected], similar to shoddy? This would help in that regard. Other than that, we could hold some test battles via shoddy to see how that threat list really holds up. I've been following this for some time on Smogon actually, and I like how D_A has these ideas, Smogon shouldn't be the only one left to discuss these things.

~T_S

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 12:59 AM

Simply put, a tournament would not be sufficient to gauge the viability of [email protected] Considering the small community of battlers (I think I can remember almost all of them), and the fact that Smogon's tourney was 64 people and yet failed to come to an accurate conclusion.

A test on Shoddy would be sufficient, but I reiterate, now is not the time to be testing [email protected]

Ársa May 2nd, 2008 1:01 AM

I think it is the perfect time. When would you consider it be the 'perfect time' pray tell? It's not going to make any difference if we do it now or in a month. I just think it should be discussed, and that list seems to have some flaws, as Anti pointed out.

~T_S

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 1:10 AM

As I already said in my last posts, Wobb and D-E are causing a lot of controversy, particularly Wobbuffet where lots of people are against it "taking the fun away from battles", "removing stall", "uncounterable" etc.

[email protected] would not cause as much controversy as Wobbuffet but would affect the metagame a lot. The Wobbuffet testing was evidence enough that the community can only take so much at one time. I suggest the more important issues at hand should be resolved, Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent Garchomp.

Anti pointed out the flaws in the list, but the list was not the only thing that MR mentioned. We already know how Pursuit Ttar and Metagross completely stop [email protected], and MR already explained the pros and cons of the sets and whether it would be outclassed by sweepers. The list made by MR was to see whether [email protected] could effectively counter the top 15 threats in the OU metagame, not to see which counters [email protected]

Ársa May 2nd, 2008 1:15 AM

I never said introduce the Lati twins to the whole community, just to the select few of us in this discussion thread so we can actually see the 'counterability' of them in the OU metagame. I am in agreement with your points, but I think we all seriously believe Wobby should be Uber and Deoxys-E is too sub-par to be Uber, and it's even being considered for...BL.

~T_S

sims796 May 2nd, 2008 5:49 AM

Bah. A "few of us".

Anywho, I'm at an impass. I'd love to say "yes, OU-ify them. But I'm still not completely convinced. I have to agree with Aquillae. Forget these two for the time being, there are bigger, Wobblier fish to fry.

I dunno. I keep thinking, how would MY team fair against them? It works fine as it is, but would I need to make drastic changes?

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 5:55 AM

Metagross is near a 100% counter to Lati's considering their only move that can hit it is HP Fire, and Metagross 2HKOs with CB Meteor Mash.

Tyranitar can also come in on [email protected] without Grass Knot and proceed to dish out pain with Pursuit. A specially defensive Tyranitar (Careful, 252 HP, 42 Attack, 216 SpD) can come in and do damage to [email protected] while not taking major damage from Grass Knot.

Metagross and Tyranitar are two of the main counters for [email protected], I'm not so sure about the special walls due to the possibility of CM.

sims796 May 2nd, 2008 5:57 AM

Would that be a bit...over centralizing? I don't care for Ttar at all, and I don't care for Meta that much, especially since I suffer from pokeslot syndrome.

Those aren't it's only counters, are they?

Dark Azelf May 2nd, 2008 7:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3548933)
Would that be a bit...over centralizing? I don't care for Ttar at all, and I don't care for Meta that much, especially since I suffer from pokeslot syndrome.

Those aren't it's only counters, are they?

No, there are steel types, special walls (See toxic blissey and crunch snorlax), Pursuit, Status, the Calm Mind set has moveslot syndrome, Specs set gets walled by special walls as is specs mence([email protected] doesnt have a good fire move outside of hp, so is inferior in that aspect), DD Set is walled by Forry, Skarm, Bronzong basically any usual DD stat upping dragon counters.


Dark, Ghost, Bug, ice, Dragon Moves also


I know you have at least one of those moves on your teams.

sims796 May 2nd, 2008 7:38 AM

Ah, not so different, then. It seems they might fall from a single Dragon Claw from my...

Ok, then, I'm cool. I had just noticed their sub-par Defsive stats.

Divine~Deoxys May 2nd, 2008 7:50 AM

I've noticed you are all saying stuff about Wobby being tested as wel, and i just want to point out onething: It has great Hp, but is rubbish in other stats, only learns seven moves, and is easily countered by almost anything, as a move wouldn't have to be super-effective to 1HKO it really. With the [email protected] thing, i feel really strongly that it should not be uber if it doesn't hold Soul Dew, as they are both weak to anything physical, as well as the fact that almost everyone has a Dragon, Ice,Bug,Dark or Ghost move in their team. Also, why do we use Smogon's rules? Why don't we just state it as a rule here that [email protected] aren't uber unlesss they have a Soul Dew? You could just do the same thing with Deoxys-E, say it isn't uber as far as you're concerned, and use it. I'm a huge fan of the [email protected] , but hate most other ubers (especialy Dialga, as he made me wonder why i didn't by pearl instead), which makes it a pain in the arss to raise a team of ubers just to be able to use 2 of my favourite pokes (the other is Dragonite, as my sig might imply). I know this is probably the longest reply i have ever posted, but i do think this is really important.Just making a point or two.

Dark Azelf May 2nd, 2008 8:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiddo999 (Post 3549142)
I've noticed you are all saying stuff about Wobby being tested as wel, and i just want to point out onething: It has great Hp, but is rubbish in other stats, only learns seven moves, and is easily countered by almost anything, as a move wouldn't have to be
super-effective to 1HKO it really.


Your greatly misguided, its which moves and trait Wobby learns/has that make it Uber in most peoples eyes.

Its awesome hp makes up for its sup par defenses, if you leave its hp untouched and ev its defenses.


[email protected]
6 HP / 252 DEF / 252 SP.DEF
Bold Nature
Trait : Shadow Tag
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Charm / Safeguard

With the above, it can survive a Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross's Megahorn and a Black Glasses boosted Jolly Tyranitars crunch. If that doesnt say something, i dont know what will =/


Also note, you cant counter it, you cant switch out =/. Really it controls matches, you try and stat up on it, it encores and you get a free switch in on the other persons poke. You try and attack it, it countercoats you, even status can be prevented by Safeguard.



If you have a counter for it i would love to hear =/


Dont even say taunt, its kinda not going to stay in for that, Wobby controls matches and can come back whenever it feels.








With the [email protected] thing, i feel really strongly that it should not be uber if it doesn't hold Soul Dew, as they are both weak to anything physical, as well as the fact that almost everyone has a Dragon, Ice,Bug,Dark or Ghost move in their team. Also, why do we use Smogon's rules? Why don't we just state it as a rule here that [email protected] aren't uber unlesss they have a Soul Dew?

Which is kinda what we are doing/trying to do now.



You could just do the same thing with Deoxys-E, say it isn't uber as far as you're concerned, and use it.


Deoxys - E is OU now most places.


I'm a huge fan of the [email protected] , but hate most other ubers (especialy Dialga, as he made me wonder why i didn't by pearl instead), which makes it a pain in the arss to raise a team of ubers just to be able to use 2 of my favourite pokes (the other is Dragonite, as my sig might imply). I know this is probably the longest reply i have ever posted, but i do think this is really important.Just making a point or two.



Well you should'nt be trying to use Ubers in standard matches unless they somehow become unbanned.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 8:35 AM

"IT WEZ L3TS IN DIS DRAGON I GUNNA KEEEELLLL UZ ALL 4 BAN CHOMP!"

I'm kinda with Aquillae on this one, we really shouldn't be worried about these two at this time. The metagame has other controversal monsters to handle and it keeps swinging this way and that way, can't we do things one at a time! xD At first glance, it looks usable for OU, however I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. I wonder how overcentralizing this will become if it is used, just imagine all the newbs using it just because it looks cool. Also a tournament doesn't really give the correct measures in my opinion. The worry of not being able to tell wether they even have soul dew on is another point.

What happened to the good ol' days!

I'll give more of my opinion review on [email protected] later~

Dark Azelf May 2nd, 2008 9:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachBoy (Post 3549248)
"IT WEZ L3TS IN DIS DRAGON I GUNNA KEEEELLLL UZ ALL 4 BAN CHOMP!"

I'm kinda with Aquillae on this one, we really shouldn't be worried about these two at this time. The metagame has other controversal monsters to handle and it keeps swinging this way and that way, can't we do things one at a time! xD At first glance, it looks usable for OU, however I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. I wonder how overcentralizing this will become if it is used, just imagine all the newbs using it just because it looks cool. Also a tournament doesn't really give the correct measures in my opinion. The worry of not being able to tell wether they even have soul dew on is another point.

What happened to the good ol' days!

I'll give more of my opinion review on [email protected] later~


I dont think the Soul Dew thing will be much of an issue. In regards to weather or not they pack it.

Really you CAN tell by the amount of damage it takes/deals, damage calcs are helpful if there is controversy, and people found to be using SD will be DQ'd.


You can tell its spec'd due to when it gets walled, it has to switch out.


Lefties and Life Orb should be obvious too.



But i kinda see where your coming from.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 9:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3549344)
I dont think the Soul Dew thing will be much of an issue. In regards to weather or not they pack it.

Really you CAN tell by the amount of damage it takes/deals, damage calcs are helpful if there is controversy, and people found to be using SD will be DQ'd.


You can tell its spec'd due to when it gets walled, it has to switch out.


Lefties and Life Orb should be obvious too.



But i kinda see where your coming from.

Yeah, I guess you are right on the soul dew use.
I think it would be okay to let these guys in for a month to test the affects. It would also be a nice idea to have a tournament with these guys! Mind if I host it? 8D Even if a tournament can't fully cover the affect of a metagame...

We do have to decide wobba, D-E, and RE-evaluate Garchomp now that a month has turned. (in 4 days or something)
After we figure out all of those guys, I say we then tackle [email protected] <- that's gonna be my new email. ;P

Anyway!
I think they could be used. What set do you think would be the greatest "centralizing" in the metagame?

Dark Azelf May 2nd, 2008 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachBoy (Post 3549365)
Yeah, I guess you are right on the soul dew use.
I think it would be okay to let these guys in for a month to test the affects. It would also be a nice idea to have a tournament with these guys! Mind if I host it? 8D Even if a tournament can't fully cover the affect of a metagame...

We do have to decide wobba, D-E, and RE-evaluate Garchomp now that a month has turned. (in 4 days or something)
After we figure out all of those guys, I say we then tackle [email protected] <- that's gonna be my new email. ;P

Anyway!
I think they could be used. What set do you think would be the greatest "centralizing" in the metagame?

Imo the greatest over centralization would be.


Calm Mind/Sub or Safeguard or <Insert another attack move >/Recover/Dragon pulse.

Still gets owned by steel types. Gah WHY CANT YOU STUPID EON DRAGONS GET FIRE BLAST >=[! SURE, WE'RE GAME FREAK, AND WE EVEN GIVE SLOWBRO FIRE BLAST/FLAMETHROWER =/ !!1111.


Lets face it, Latios has moveset syndrome, Tar is going to own it without Grass knot anyways, so meh. In fact, Pursuit in general, ouch.... Its sets are wall-able, no matter which set you run and with 5 Weaks, its making Celebi blush.

Latias i however think CAN be a nice niche in your team, like countering Ape, Gyarados, providing Wish support and PHazing Calm Minders etc..



Why does Wobby even need to be re-considered, its broken and has no counters and forces teams to use Taunt and what not ? I have said this before, the ONLY reason its still OU on shoddy is the fact that no one uses it out respect for other players. Stay in Uber noaw !!!

Deoxys cant sweep for crap, its an awesome revenge killer, but thats bout it, unless everyone fears the Spiker set.

Knock Off or Taunt / Spikes/ <Attack move here> / Recover =/. Ou plzzz


Chomp, could be argued, but the no counters really kicks it in the face. Debatable, but i still think its REALLY broken.



I think we may have to bring this to the Raters Guild to discuss it more however.



As for that tourney, you may be the host if you really wish, but Wifi or Shoddy ? I think we'll need more than one person in charge to monitor it.

If all goes well, i think getting feedback about [email protected] would be great from players that use it/go against it.



I agree, though, not just yet, when we've cleared stuff up about Chomp and Wobby mainly, D-E really isnt an issue tbh.

Samson May 2nd, 2008 10:03 AM

all i have to say: recover + movepool makes them broken enough to do fine in ubers and too broken for OU. sure, they have defensive weaknesses that make them vulnerable to pokes like weavile who have easy access to swords dance, but they can shrug off every other kind of hits.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3549416)
Imo the greatest over centralization would be.


Calm Mind/Sub or Safeguard or <Insert another attack move >/Recover/Dragon pulse.

Still gets owned by steel types. Gah WHY CANT YOU STUPID EON DRAGONS GET FIRE BLAST >=[! SURE, WE'RE GAME FREAK, AND WE EVEN GIVE SLOWBRO FIRE BLAST/FLAMETHROWER =/ !!1111.


Lets face it, Latios has moveset syndrome, Tar is going to own it without Grass knot anyways, so meh. In fact, Pursuit in general, ouch.... Its sets are wall-able, no matter which set you run and with 5 Weaks, its making Celebi blush.

Latias i however think CAN be a nice niche in your team, like countering Ape, Gyarados, providing Wish support and PHazing Calm Minders etc..



Why does Wobby even need to be re-considered, its broken and has no counters and forces teams to use Taunt and what not ? I have said this before, the ONLY reason its still OU on shoddy is the fact that no one uses it out respect for other players. Stay in Uber noaw !!!

Deoxys cant sweep for crap, its an awesome revenge killer, but thats bout it, unless everyone fears the Spiker set.

Knock Off or Taunt / Spikes/ <Attack move here> / Recover =/. Ou plzzz


Chomp, could be argued, but the no counters really kicks it in the face. Debatable, but i still think its REALLY broken.



I think we may have to bring this to the Raters Guild to discuss it more however.



As for that tourney, you may be the host if you really wish, but Wifi or Shoddy ? I think we'll need more than one person in charge to monitor it.

If all goes well, i think getting feedback about [email protected] would be great from players that use it/go against it.



I agree, though, not just yet, when we've cleared stuff up about Chomp and Wobby mainly, D-E really isnt an issue tbh.


I believe, if [email protected] had fireblast, then they get too powerful, so I'm actually glad they don't have such a powerful fire attack.

Last time I checked, our tier list has wobby saying OU. So... we need to clear that up. >>; I too believe wobby is uber. Deoxys annoys the heck out of me, but I guess it's OU, I really don't know much about D-E as I always tend to ignore it exists.

For the tournament, without a doubt it'd be shoddy, as if it were wifi it would be really hard to obtain good [email protected] now wouldn't it?
The amount of monitors would be determined by how many people sign up. (yeah, I kinda have already been thinking of how to set everything up since I saw this thread to be honest) :x

Also, to note, we don't really have a large affect on shoddy anyway, just because shoddy has something OU, doesnt mean we should. Our tier list has wobby listed OU... because of shoddy? so why do we have garchomp banned when shoddy hasn't banned it? See, we really shouldn't base our opinions on what they do. We are PC, not shoddy, not smogon, PC. Let's start acting like it.

See we contridict ourselves there, let's ban wobby here already, we arn't shoddy we don't control them, and as far as I know, we havn't established a server there yet. On Garchomp... well I'm currently supporting the ban, but not going to lie, I'm still reviewing it.

ANYWAY, on topic.
When should the tournament be held is the question?

ASAP? Wait a week of review of the lati twins, some opinion on that.

Dark Azelf May 2nd, 2008 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachBoy (Post 3549535)
I believe, if [email protected] had fireblast, then they get too powerful, so I'm actually glad they don't have such a powerful fire attack.

Last time I checked, our tier list has wobby saying OU. So... we need to clear that up. >>; I too believe wobby is uber. Deoxys annoys the heck out of me, but I guess it's OU, I really don't know much about D-E as I always tend to ignore it exists.

For the tournament, without a doubt it'd be shoddy, as if it were wifi it would be really hard to obtain good [email protected] now wouldn't it?
The amount of monitors would be determined by how many people sign up. (yeah, I kinda have already been thinking of how to set everything up since I saw this thread to be honest) :x

Also, to note, we don't really have a large affect on shoddy anyway, just because shoddy has something OU, doesnt mean we should. Our tier list has wobby listed OU... because of shoddy? so why do we have garchomp banned when shoddy hasn't banned it? See, we really shouldn't base our opinions on what they do. We are PC, not shoddy, not smogon, PC. Let's start acting like it.

See we contridict ourselves there, let's ban wobby here already, we arn't shoddy we don't control them, and as far as I know, we havn't established a server there yet. On Garchomp... well I'm currently supporting the ban, but not going to lie, I'm still reviewing it.

ANYWAY, on topic.
When should the tournament be held is the question?

ASAP? Wait a week of review of the lati twins, some opinion on that.

I didnt actually see wobby was unbanned here. In all honesty that = 100% fail for the metagame. Why should i have to run Taunt and Toxic Spikes on every team i run to be guarantee a kill on that thing ? Its BS and im going to the tier list to complain =)


Hey, i have a good Latias, well, its not mine actually, its Jibakus's XD Haha, but yeah, shoddy would be ok i guess.




As for the tourney, a week should do it. The raters guild i think would be the best place to discuss it. The ins and outs etc.





Also, cant the Recover and movepool thing be said about Deoxys, Jirachi (Wish) and to a lesser extent Celebi etc ? The Latis still have counters, even if they do have an awesome movepool.

Samson May 2nd, 2008 11:44 AM

deoxys is very fragile, jirachi can't do much to its counters and celebi is VERY limited. [email protected] can actually threaten their counters and latios, specifically, can just completely overpower opponents with its excellent sp atk, it's speed and one dragon dance, although its physical movepool ain't all that great to be honest. still, it is able to outspeed scarfers that have the potential to OHKO it and outlast hits from bulkier opponents while retaliating with both forms of attack. sure, latias isn't all that great but it can live up to a standard higher than cresselia because of its movepool and recover, plus the resistances that its dragon typing offers and it's ability to bring fear to sweepers who think they can get away with a 2HKO because of her speed.

ABYAY May 2nd, 2008 12:13 PM

Basically, to put stories short: Wobb is uber, keep it where it's supposed to be. Deoxys - S has only little, if any, potential in Ubers, and OU could be a nice place for it. Sure it's faster than everything, but its average attack stats don't help too much when its low HP gives in.

[email protected] itself, in my opinion, is OU. Soul Dew is Uber. Yes, an item is uber... Now if it got Fire Blast or something of the likes, then I'd understand it'd be highly restricted to Ubers. Also, there's one pokemon out there that can basically destroy the Latis...Shedinja anyone? Not only does it get two SE STAB moves in on the eon twins, but Wonder Guard basically makes it invincible to the Latis, barring SE Hidden Powers and Toxic...or something retarded like Aerial Ace. I guess you could consider Shedinja as a wonderful counter if you protect it from weather and switch-in traps like spikes and such.

Samson May 2nd, 2008 12:22 PM

yah cus people use shedinja because of it's overall ability to counter and survive ._.

and about flamethrower/fire blast: not having them is the only thing that would qualify them for OU, but doesn't necessarily mean that they would be uber classed if they did. fire type attacks are quite useless in ubers and wouldn't make them more suited to take on ubers. it would only help them take on bronzong and registeel who are honestly the only steels that can shrug at them.

Supreme Dirt May 2nd, 2008 1:51 PM

:O Slowbro gets Flamethrower?!?!?!?
Wow.

Anyways, let me get my two bits in on this.
I think Latias should be OU. Latios, I'm not sure about. I don't really feel like figuring out damage calcs, but since the average set on Latias has only one or two attacking moves...
And yes, it can be sweeper-ified, but Latias's 20 Point deficit in SA should be enough that it can be surivived.
Latios, I'm not sure about. I'm in between, although I'm leaning more towards OU-ification, for mostly all the reasons already stated.

Now, Wobbufett, although Shadow Tag stops you, almost all of my Pokemon on my main team have stat-boosting moves. So Wobbufett can be set up on easily. Two Dragon Dances, and CRUNCH. No more Wobby.
Course, if they switch, I'm probably dead. Thus, it should remain in ubers.
Deoxys-E is raped by Gyro Ball and slaughtered with most priority moves. Without Fire Punch, it can't even really stand up that well in OU (Purely in my opinion, don't UU-ify it).
Garchomp - Well, we've been through this once already. Best not go back.

luke May 2nd, 2008 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Dirt (Post 3550032)
Now, Wobbufett, although Shadow Tag stops you, almost all of my Pokemon on my main team have stat-boosting moves. So Wobbufett can be set up on easily. Two Dragon Dances, and CRUNCH. No more Wobby.
.

*sigh* It's called Encore and that means you're stuck on that move and they bring in a counter.

ABYAY May 2nd, 2008 2:07 PM

You'll be Encore'd on the setting up -_-...

Also, here's the distinct differences between Latis

Latios - More sweeper orientated with superior sp.atk and atk over Latias, but defenses hurt it to an extent. However, it's known to easily run Scarf and Specs effectively with over-Salamence Draco Meteors.

Latias - Latias lacks sweeping potential, but you see...superior sp.def and defenses mean she's tankish, passing the all-known Wish to partners in dread need of it. Also, she can set up Calm Minds MUCH easier and more effectively. The more bulky Latias can Recover off the damage she takes easier too.

Oh yeah, Samson, here's why I said that if the Latis had fire moves, it'd be why they'd be highly restricted to Ubers. It's not the fact that fire helps in ubers, but the fact that fire helps in OU against the many Steels lurking the area. That's the main reason.

Supreme Dirt May 2nd, 2008 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABYAY (Post 3550067)
You'll be Encore'd on the setting up -_-...

Also, here's the distinct differences between Latis

Latios - More sweeper orientated with superior sp.atk and atk over Latias, but defenses hurt it to an extent. However, it's known to easily run Scarf and Specs effectively with over-Salamence Draco Meteors.

Latias - Latias lacks sweeping potential, but you see...superior sp.def and defenses mean she's tankish, passing the all-known Wish to partners in dread need of it. Also, she can set up Calm Minds MUCH easier and more effectively. The more bulky Latias can Recover off the damage she takes easier too.

Oh yeah, Samson, here's why I said that if the Latis had fire moves, it'd be why they'd be highly restricted to Ubers. It's not the fact that fire helps in ubers, but the fact that fire helps in OU against the many Steels lurking the area. That's the main reason.

Ugh, I forgot about encore. My bad.
I seriously hate that move. So yeah, keep it in ubers.
The lack of Fire moves is the main reason it is viable in OU. It can get walled, if you know what you're doing.
The question is not whether it is strong enough for Uber, but whether it is weak enough for OU. Nice to see someone remembering that.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 3:08 PM

Yeah.

The Metagame rule is not how a pocket monster performs in uber at all (that's just a ban field, nothing more really), but how it performs in OU.
Seriously, we're pretty much all on the same page. Wobby = uber.

I will be hosting the Lati twin Tournament so all of us can see some of the affects for ourself. I will be posting the tournament in about a week, as we have to sort out the whole Garchomp, wobby, D-E, controversals mess first.

Yeah basically, if it had fireblast, Latios would be uber, so thanks for just having HPfire. I look forward to the tournament, and hope everyone participates.

Random Guy May 2nd, 2008 3:10 PM

Well if you're going to ask it they're weak enough for OU, most people will be looking at the various movesets and viable counters for them.

As mentioned before, Tyranitar, Metagross or any other pokemon with a powerful Pursuit can stop them. Plus without HP fire, most steel pokemon can stand up to them. Then you've got your Scarfed pokemon like Heracross, ghosts like Spiritomb and other pokemon who can wall them. Is that enough though?

Faceless* May 2nd, 2008 3:20 PM


It's easy to beat a Latias n00bs, go learn to play
o_o Any posts like that yet Dark?

As always, I do have a 60% on the side of Latias being OU, it's got it's own counters. If at least about 3-5 OU Pokemon counters an "Uber" Pokemon, I'm pretty much convinced that the "Uber" Pokemon is actually misplaced and is actually OU. Latias's 110 Speed is actually less deadly than it looks, Gengar ties with this speed and usually, sweepers below 100 speed (Except Electivire..) are usually Scarfed for quick striking. Now, if this were to be Scarfed, that would be a completely different story. Scarfing this bad girl is hindering her advantage of an excellent Special attacking movepool. If this were to be released as OU, some Special Sweepers like Porygon-Z might definitely get less popular than usual. As for Dragon Dancing Latias... why use that if it's special attacks are completely better (and higher!) than it's physical side?

So far, 60/40, 60 in favor of the OU Latias (WITHOUT SOUL DEW)

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 4:53 PM

*Sighs* Am I the only one here who believes Wobb and Garchomp are OU?

Well, in the instance that [email protected] is introduced sweepers below the 110 speed range are not going to drop in popularity as [email protected] can't come in on them anyway.

[email protected] is not hard to counter, the top tier OUs can do it decently well. I won't waste my time theorymonning about how "broken" or "not broken" they are, but I feel they would not have any significant impact on the metagame or overcentralise it in some way.

Just because we are Pokecommunity and not Smogon or Shoddy and shouldn't use their tier lists doesn't make sense. Shoddy and Smogon have established semi-solid tier lists out of important statistics on usage and centralisation. It would be stupid not to utilise good data that is right in front of you. Shoddy is still testing Wobb, so maybe Wobb could be put into Ubers until the situation is resolved, but I see no need to make new tiers or any stuff like that just because of a few members.

Please don't respond to my post with a Wobb debate, go start it in a another thread e_E

Samson May 2nd, 2008 5:03 PM

no i definitely agree on both of them being OU. i've been waiting for wobbu to make its way into OU for a long time, and tho i'm anxious to use it myself, it's clear a lot of people don't like it.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquillae (Post 3550387)
*Sighs* Am I the only one here who believes Wobb and Garchomp are OU?

Well, in the instance that [email protected] is introduced sweepers below the 110 speed range are not going to drop in popularity as [email protected] can't come in on them anyway.

[email protected] is not hard to counter, the top tier OUs can do it decently well. I won't waste my time theorymonning about how "broken" or "not broken" they are, but I feel they would not have any significant impact on the metagame or overcentralise it in some way.

Just because we are Pokecommunity and not Smogon or Shoddy and shouldn't use their tier lists doesn't make sense. Shoddy and Smogon have established semi-solid tier lists out of important statistics on usage and centralisation. It would be stupid not to utilise good data that is right in front of you. Shoddy is still testing Wobb, so maybe Wobb could be put into Ubers until the situation is resolved, but I see no need to make new tiers or any stuff like that just because of a few members.

Please don't respond to my post with a Wobb debate, go start it in a another thread e_E

No... your not the only one. I, for one, just recently jumped on the garchomp bandwagon, but... I'm of course against it, and after getting bit by trying to fight for what I believe I didn't take it too well. I sway easy though, and I am in the middle of it all. I never use wobby, so I honestly don't care for it, same sitchu with D-E. I'm really only in the garchomp debate. Just because I may lose some games due to a wobba or D-E doesnt affect me, I play fun competitive play. I could care less about those two. Though, I do care about garchomp.

On the were PC thing, well yeah the good data of course is great and we should of course take, absorb and learn from it. Though, we are ourown community, and that's not stupid to be create and design our own tiers. Of course we look into smogon's ideals and information, we have to, heck its smogon for crying out loud. But that doesn't mean we have to mirror them...

What's the fun in mirroring people anyways. I like that we have people rejecting what we do here, the more debate the better.

sims796 May 2nd, 2008 5:09 PM

If you don't want a Wobb debate, don't bring it up at all.

This is a thread concerning the entire battling community of PC as is. If you feel Garchomp & Wobby aren't Uber, and have some reasonable explaination as of why, go to the tier list.

It isn't as simple as what you are saying. If any other members feel otherwise, they should post up. As such, these "few members" are giving good reason as to why they are put where they are. And as such, decisions are made based on that. If we feel that what shoddy says is incorrect, we will act accordingly. We aren't ignoring their information, we are simply disagreeing. We don't have to wait to see how it performs, we can test it ourselves.

BeachBoy May 2nd, 2008 5:22 PM

http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=118170&page=10

^ there, now all of you go put your opinion on the controversals.

Anyway on topic about the Lati's.
I think Latios would make a bigger impact on the metagame, Latias would be a cool tankish pocket monster to tinker around with. Whom do you all think would become more centralizing? Os or As?

I'm still on the fence with the Lati's. Even though tournaments can't honestly give accurate information, I think it would still be nice to see the results on the upcoming Lati tournament here.

Aquilae May 2nd, 2008 5:37 PM

I find it frivolous to depend on a few members of the community, while they may be experienced in pokemon, the opinion of a few members would not be accurate in the long run.

While this may seem elitist, I strongly feel that the community is strongly biased toward a certain opinion. A good example is Wobbuffet. The whole community is strongly biased against Wobbuffet, even if they do not have good statements to back it up. The best way is to analyse statistics that would prove the overcentralisation of a pokemon in the metagame. Wobb should be banned? Tough luck, the statistics don't say so.

luke May 2nd, 2008 5:39 PM

This is a Latios / Latias discussion. Please take all discussion of other Pokemon to their respective threads. Thank you.

(This is aimed at no one in particular. Just an FYI for future posts.)

Divine~Deoxys May 3rd, 2008 3:45 AM

Nice, but why does peoples keep bringing up Wobby & Garchomps? Wobby is debatable, and Garchomp is clearly uber as it is superior to OU and UU. The more important thing is the [email protected], whom i think are clearly fit for OU, and would just be at the stronger end of the ability scale, with all other dragons & T-tar etc. The prblem is people who don't want to face strong pokes, but as far as i can see, if you're one of those, go UU, as they are usually weaker (although some are quite good if you play them right). And everyone who says they would bring more variety to the game has an outstanding point, as there aren't really any specific Dragon Walls, although Dragonite with the right nature could be one, and most Dragons are mainly physical, unlike Latios, who is a special attacker, and more like the psychic side of his family. So, realy they would make the game more exciting, and are cool as.

Aquilae May 3rd, 2008 5:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiddo999 (Post 3551679)
Nice, but why does peoples keep bringing up Wobby & Garchomps? Wobby is debatable, and Garchomp is clearly uber as it is superior to OU and UU. The more important thing is the [email protected], whom i think are clearly fit for OU, and would just be at the stronger end of the ability scale, with all other dragons & T-tar etc. The prblem is people who don't want to face strong pokes, but as far as i can see, if you're one of those, go UU, as they are usually weaker (although some are quite good if you play them right). And everyone who says they would bring more variety to the game has an outstanding point, as there aren't really any specific Dragon Walls, although Dragonite with the right nature could be one, and most Dragons are mainly physical, unlike Latios, who is a special attacker, and more like the psychic side of his family. So, realy they would make the game more exciting, and are cool as.

Garchomp is still debateable and so far I don't see many good points for its exclusion from OU, other than "test it and we'll see the results".

Latios' sets are inferior to the common dragons and is generally outclassed by Salamence due to the lack of a fire move. I don't see Latios having a negative impact on the metagame except people would run more Bronzongs/Metagrosses or something.
Latias hasn't been extensively tested but it would be a Cresselia with more SpA (and Draco Meteor =D) if it were to run a special walling set, and would be inferior if it ran Latios' offensive sets.

UU is meant to create a balanced metagame for the lower tier pokemon to function in. It is not a tier for "weak pokemon" or "I don't want to face strong pokemons". People play UU for added fun of playing with pokemon that would otherwise be unviable in OU.

I strongly feel that the reason why people would unban [email protected] is because of the advent of a new metagame, and therefore they cannot go by the rules of the old standard as Advance is very different from D/P. It is not to add variety in the choices of pokemon as almost all the sets are inferior to current OU pokemon one way or another. Physical Pursuit and stuff like that nerf [email protected] in D/P, so they are being considered for unbanning.

No Dragon Walls? Noone remembers BulkyMence =(

Dragons are not suited to be walls due to their stats being catered to the offensive rather than defensive and common Ice Beam weakness hurts a lot.

Unbanning [email protected] would not add more variety to the game, neither will it see the advent of a new fearsome Special Attacker Dragon (which is vastly inferior to Salamence =*) It is just to show that Advance rules do not neccessarily apply in D/P, and to correct any wrongs in the tier list. So far, Smogon has suggested ditching the BL list altogether and starting from scratch, because of the massive changes that D/P brought.

(BTW, the Psychic type got seriously nerfed in D/P)

Dani_X May 3rd, 2008 5:46 AM

How can you see if [email protected] holds the Dew in battle ? It's awful that we can't at first sight.
I think [email protected] should be OU. Weavile's STAB moves are super-effective on their average defense, and they can't run, they'll be Pursuited. TTar is immune to Psychic and can switch on a Specs Psychic, DD up and proceed to sweep [email protected]~. If they run, one more DD up. If they don't run, it'll be 6 dd's up. Big dilemma. Blissey with Calm Mind or Psych Up enjoys Ice Beaming that Calm Mind [email protected] Scizor can Pursuit or XScissor them with impunity, and doesn't take much from Psychic and Dragon Pulse; he has only to be afraid of the occasional HP Fire. Even CB Honchkrow is immune to Psychic and can Sucker Punch their face. Spiritomb is immue to Psychic and to the occasional HP Fighting, and murders seriously [email protected] with Pursuit + Sucker Punch, but you have to be careful with Dragon Pulse. Heck, that's only some counters.[email protected]are 2HKO'd by almost any good sweeper.

Lalapizzame May 3rd, 2008 5:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dani_X (Post 3551970)
How can you see if [email protected] holds the Dew in battle ? It's awful that we can't at first sight.
I think [email protected] should be OU. Weavile's STAB moves are super-effective on their average defense, and they can't run, they'll be Pursuited. TTar is immune to Psychic and can switch on a Specs Psychic, DD up and proceed to sweep [email protected]~. If they run, one more DD up. If they don't run, it'll be 6 dd's up. Big dilemma. Blissey with Calm Mind or Psych Up enjoys Ice Beaming that Calm Mind [email protected] Scizor can Pursuit or XScissor them with impunity, and doesn't take much from Psychic and Dragon Pulse; he has only to be afraid of the occasional HP Fire. Even CB Honchkrow is immune to Psychic and can Sucker Punch their face. Spiritomb is immue to Psychic and to the occasional HP Fighting, and murders seriously [email protected] with Pursuit + Sucker Punch, but you have to be careful with Dragon Pulse. Heck, that's only some counters.[email protected]are 2HKO'd by almost any good sweeper.

You can see by the damage.If Blissey got 2HKOed by Draco Meteor (which I think is impossible) then you have the right to say they hold Soul Dew.Although it's true they get 2HKOed by most good sweepers.Although Rhyperior might just prevail in battling them.

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 6:04 AM

there are 3 ways to determine if [email protected] has Soul Dew.

1. Damage Calculations. You get blasted away from something that normally doesn't OHKO. Then if your opponent uses a different move, does insane damage, then it's Soul Dew'd. If it switches out, then it's holding Specs most likely. Also, your OHKO-ing Ice Beam does about 75% to even the most bulky of [email protected] That's a sign of Soul Dew.

2. I know there are extremely trustful members here. Those who use the Soul Dew in an OU tournament will just prove they're noobs anyway, trying to cheat to win, and those people will break the trust of mine (and all of us most likely.)

3. Bring someone with Knock Off. lol that'll determine pretty quickly.

Dark Azelf May 3rd, 2008 6:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalapizzame (Post 3552008)
You can see by the damage.If Blissey got 2HKOed by Draco Meteor (which I think is impossible) then you have the right to say they hold Soul Dew.Although it's true they get 2HKOed by most good sweepers.Although Rhyperior might just prevail in battling them.

Rhyperior O_o

Good luck switching that in on Draco meteors =/.

Also Choice Specs grants the same sp.att boost as Soul Dew and DOES NOT 2hko Blissey.

I think it still just out damages specs mence, but not by much.

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 6:12 AM

Yeah, Rhyperior can't come in on a Draco Meteor, but it can come in on a Thunderbolt or physical sets. Everything else...nah, not likely.

Latios may run 1 of these 3 items about 95% of the time: Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and Life Orb. I'd expect the Life Orb sets to run Recover.

Latias would run more defensive things like Leftovers, but Life Orb may be an option.

Cloud_85 May 3rd, 2008 6:14 AM

Well It isn't easy know when the [email protected] have the Soul Dew, the easist way is Damage calculations. If you know that he have Soul Dew, you may D/C. It's like D/C when someone breaks the Sleep clause, maybe this is the [email protected] Clause...

Lalapizzame May 3rd, 2008 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud_85 (Post 3552080)
Well It isn't easy know when the [email protected] have the Soul Dew, the easist way is Damage calculations. If you know that he have Soul Dew, you may D/C. It's like D/C when someone breaks the Sleep clause, maybe this is the [email protected] Clause...

Actually no it isn't.Knocking Off items is the easiest since you see the name of the item you just knocked off of the [email protected]

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 10:44 AM

I know it may seem stupid to say this, but using a pokemon with Frisk is another way to check [email protected] for its item. The only two pokemon with Frisk are Stantler and Banette, both that are basically unusable in OU.

Anti May 3rd, 2008 10:51 AM

Interesting...

I actually think Litias is going to do better than Latios. Latios has to compete with Salamence and other dragons for slots and it is generally pretty obvious as to what's coming. It's kind of like a special Garchomp (kind of...I'll explain later). I've recently become less adamant on my opinions with both Garchomp and Wobbuffet....so yeah, I'm going to REALLY withhold my judgment on this.

As for Latias, the only pokemon really similar to it at all is Cresselia, who is used for countering different things and typing differences set them apart quite a bit (not to mention Latias' superior recovery options). Latias can pass Wish and do a lot of things that no other pokemon can do.

At this point, I actually think Latias might have more of an impact because we haven't seen other things like it before.

BTW, I saw somebody mentioning that Toxic Blissey beats Latios, and I object to that. Substitute says hi.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lalapizzame (Post 3552620)
Actually no it isn't.Knocking Off items is the easiest since you see the name of the item you just knocked off of the [email protected]

IF you survive two hits.

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 11:14 AM

Latias has little or no competition. The usual wishpassers, Umbreon, Vaporeon, and Blissey, are outclassed by Latias because she has varied coverage that doesn't require Hidden powers to do, and she hits amazingly hard. Her 80 base HP hurts her a little (if it was 90, then that'd be pretty cool.) She also comes with some good resistances, but bad weaknesses at the same time.

Latios, on the other hand, has competition everywhere, as you can see.

And with Knock Off, you can hit with it on the eon's switch-in.

Samson May 3rd, 2008 11:33 AM

sure, latios has competition, but i think you guys are forgetting that it has 110 base speed + dragon dance. that outclasses everyone except for dragonite who has agility, but relies on dragon dance anyway. given max speed and enough hp evs, it can survive a hit and go for the 2HKO AFTER one dragon dance. even scarf chomp can't handle that.

in that case, CB sets on dragons would be a new thing, but they would extremely limit dragons. that's quite a change in the metagame if you ask me.

EDIT: also, i just thought how good choice specs glaceon would be against it XD

sims796 May 3rd, 2008 11:46 AM

? It says Samson posted here, but I do't see anything. Is this a glitch?

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 11:48 AM

It's there now.

Well, Glaceon is normally damaged by STAB moves, but getting it in to surive 2 hits is gonna be hard. However, I can see nearly 600 sp.atk hitting it for a lot.

Samson May 3rd, 2008 12:46 PM

well it's not about it surviving 2 hits. it's about it coming in after latios raeped one of its team members, taking one hit and finishing it off.

ABYAY May 3rd, 2008 12:57 PM

Of course, make sure Blissey or Snorlax are dead because they'll absorb Ice Beams like nothing.

Samson May 3rd, 2008 6:14 PM

XD true that...

it's a good thing pokemon never went the digimon route and allowed pokes to fuse. BLISSLAX *frrraaaaaaaaawww*

Aquilae May 3rd, 2008 6:29 PM

In my opinion, Latias has a lot of competition for wishpassing. Comparing it with the usual Vaporeon/Blissey/Umbreon, you have to consider what the wishpasser is going to do besides Wishpassing.

Vaporeon can counter certain threats in the metagame, including Gyarados, Salamence and Garchomp but is not as effective at doing it than some other pokemon. What differentiates Vaporeon is Water Absorb, which allows it to come in on Waterfalls/Surfs taking -25% of damage. Wishpassing is not the limit of Vaporeon's utilities - it can BP some other stuff like Substitutes (130 base HP allows for bulky subs) and is light which means it can come in on Grass Knot users and counter them, most notably Infernape.

Blissey has monstrous HP and SpD, allowing her to function as a special wall and Wishpass at the same time. Blissey has only one weakness - Fighting.

Umbreon can Trap Pass and Curse Pass and Toxistall, but it has dropped down to BL due to lack of defenses, particularly the Fighting and Bug weakness hurts it a lot, and its inability to attack other than through Toxic allows Metagross and other steels to come in on it easily.

What can Latias do?

Latias has a great movepool, it can PsuedoPass other stuff, including Reflect and Light Screen. It has Refresh, healing its status, something that the other Wishpassers cannot boast.
But it is this myriad of options that leave Latias spoilt for choice. Other than Wish, it can afford 3 other move slots, and at least one of them has to be dedicated to an offensive move, be it Toxic or Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse. One should be for either Protect or Recover/Roost, which Latias wants more because of its unfortunate weaknesses and less than stellar defenses. The last slot can be dedicated to whatever you choose to fit on it, and this ends up with Latias being limited in its support movepool if it chooses to wishpass.
80/90/130 defences actually are less than Vaporeon, Umbreon and Blissey on the special side, higher than Blissey on the physical side but losing out to Vaporeon by a narrow margin and Umbreon obviously.
Latias also has the Psychic typing which gives it unfortunate weaknesses to Dark, along with Dragon which gives her a weakness to Ice. Both weaknesses can be exploited easily due to the commonness of Weavile, Mamoswine and Ice Beam users. Dark can be exploited by many pokemon, most notably Tyranitar and Metagross who can Pursuit Latias, locking it into a psuedotrap. Wish cuts down on the offensive coverage of the set, Latias can be walled by Metagross without HP Fire, and Tyranitar without Grass Knot. If you choose to add a support move like Reflect or Light Screen on the last slot and/or a reliable recovery move, your offensive options will be further depleted.
You may also quote the pure destructive power of Draco Meteor, but with that as an offensive move you are actually inviting Steels to switch in, and Draco Meteor without EV investment does not do crazy damage. Without a reliable move to deal with Pursuiters increases the possibility of being Pursuited after a Draco Meteor.
I also would like to add that Salamence does the Wishpassing with Draco Meteor job better having Intimidate on the physical side and resistances to a common physical type - Fighting. Salamence also has Flamethrower/Fire Blast to deal with Steels somewhat.

So that is theorymon on Latias emphasising its potential weaknesses and the fact that it is outclassed as a Wishpasser.

Please keep your fantasies about broken special walls out of this thread please. Glaceon is a sketchy [email protected] counter, it can't come in on Draco Meteors and still takes a lot from [email protected] attacks.

Anti May 3rd, 2008 6:44 PM

Latias can Reflect Pursuiters though, which knocks down the move's power. That's worthy of note.

It also poses a threat to sweep (even though Latios does that better obviously) since it has CM and has some awesome special choices to choose from. It also has better special defense than Salamence, while Salamence is superior at taking about any physical hit.

But when you think of it, both of these seem like worse Salamences that take special hits better but are Pursuit weak =0

EDIT: And a bunch of other differences >_>

Just to throw this out there, but these would absolutely suffocate Azelf :0

Samson May 3rd, 2008 7:09 PM

you mentioned salamence has a fighting resistance... umm so does latias. unlike salamence, it only has a limited X2 ice weakness which is almost disregarded as a weakness with exception of ice punch (which won't ohko it unless CB'd) and lowly occasional avalanche. and unlike salamence, latias doesn't lose value in wishpassing because it doesn't have a SR weakness.

and saying that it is walled by metagross, ttar and fellow pursuiters is a given that shouldn't even be mentioned. it has its undeniable counters as do other actual uber-classed pokemon but your example of wishpassers that outclass it have even MORE. ttar is undeniably a full on counter (if it doesn't have surf/grass knot) to latias, but latios can actually damage metagross while surviving STAB CB hits. let's now assume weavile as a major threat... it won't do much without CB and if it's a full defensive latios, it won't OHKO it then. then you have other pokes like heracross who have STAB SE hits to give the thing but have to sacrifice attack power if they want to hit it first or risk taking a lot of damage to OHKO it or something close to an OHKO with CB. so all in all, tyranitar is like the only surefire counter to this thing. hell, tyranitar scares ubers. several top-tier OU fall to it and if you don't remember, a lot of talk back then went around about ttar becoming uber classed this gen.

basically, when a poke like latias has very specific, yet, few counters that it can damage and force most of them to run certain sets, it's definitely overpowering the tier.

Aquilae May 3rd, 2008 7:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 3554279)
you mentioned salamence has a fighting resistance... umm so does latias. unlike salamence, it only has a limited X2 ice weakness which is almost disregarded as a weakness with exception of ice punch (which won't ohko it unless CB'd) and lowly occasional avalanche. and unlike salamence, latias doesn't lose value in wishpassing because it doesn't have a SR weakness.

and saying that it is walled by metagross, ttar and fellow pursuiters is a given that shouldn't even be mentioned. it has its undeniable counters as do other actual uber-classed pokemon but your example of wishpassers that outclass it have even MORE. ttar is undeniably a full on counter (if it doesn't have surf/grass knot) to latias, but latios can actually damage metagross while surviving STAB CB hits. let's now assume weavile as a major threat... it won't do much without CB and if it's a full defensive latios, it won't OHKO it then. then you have other pokes like heracross who have STAB SE hits to give the thing but have to sacrifice attack power if they want to hit it first or risk taking a lot of damage to OHKO it or something close to an OHKO with CB. so all in all, tyranitar is like the only surefire counter to this thing. hell, tyranitar scares ubers. several top-tier OU fall to it and if you don't remember, a lot of talk back then went around about ttar becoming uber classed this gen.

basically, when a poke like latias has very specific, yet, few counters that it can damage and force most of them to run certain sets, it's definitely overpowering the tier.

As I mentioned, Salamence has Intimidate, and decent 95/80 defences, making it a prime candidate for a physical wall. Latias will arguably be compromising her overall defences if you invest heavily in Defence, and it does not make a good wall.
You will avoid Ice Attacks obviously, Latias Bug and Dark weaknesses hamper her a lot.

Sure, [email protected] can damage Metagross, but they get 2HKOed always by CBMetagross, and get 3HKOed by normal Metagross if it invests heavily in defences. Metagross also can come in on STAB Draco Meteor and shrug it off, and [email protected] only SE hit is HP Fire.
Latias takes a lot from Pursuit, neutering it.

One of the most clear definitions for uber is one that overcentralises the metagame.
I honestly can't see [email protected] doing much with its obvious counters and begin outclassed by many other pokemon.

Tyranitar scares Ubers, but does it overcentralise the metagame?
Shedinja scares Ubers, but does it overcentralise the metagame?

What is certain is that [email protected] has surefire counters. Many of the top-tier OU pokemon do not have surefire counters due to their immense versatility and strength. In the last post I made I sufficiently described [email protected]' weaknesses and surefire counters/revenge killers.

Just clarifying, a pokemon forcing another pokemon to run an extra move to deal with it effectively is hardly overcentralisation. Blissey runs a status move to stop it from being set-up fodder for the numerous set-up sweepers. Is that overcentralisation?
Metagross or Tyranitar do not need to run specific sets just to deal with [email protected], most of their sets work well already.

Samson May 3rd, 2008 8:05 PM

i didn't say anything about running a certain move. i'm specifically discussing the fact that many sacrifices are required to be made concerning item and ev spread when trying to counter latias. blissey and friends have counters that they just can't avoid (for instance, CB attacks from any CB whore) while salamence puts your team at risk trying to avoid certain attacks. and investing solely in defense sounds like the smarter thing to do. consider that with full hp and defense, it's defensive abilities are nearly equal on either end. it still shrugs at SE special attacks and gives itself more room with CM at its disposal.

tyranitar has a x4 weakness to fighting, a typing that is quite superior and would be very common regardless of ttar having that weakness. it's not the fastest poke, has a weakness to another very common attack (EQ) found on pokes that are capable of being physically offensive (whom do an easy job of countering it) and does not have the best resistances (psychic, dark, fire... whoop dee doo). of course it wasn't going to change much of the metagame.

i wish you guys would stop using shedinja as any example. i shouldn't have to explain why THAT is a bad example.

and salamence ISN'T a physical wall even WITH intimidate. same for latias... the point was never to make a physical wall because clearly both can't function that way. though, latias is extremely flexible in its duties as something that receives a variety of damage, restores, and performs offenses.

pokes that apparently outclass latios are similar in the fact that they have surefire counters, but those surefire counters don't have to adjust themselves so much to satisfy damage performance as much as latias' counters do. for instance, CBers who counter blissey, vaporen, etc. can freely assume damage with predicted/unpredicted move choices and will most likely do decent damage. latias counters, however, don't always have the option of running CB because of a lack of speed they have themselves and risk being killed just to kill it. so what... run choice scarf? if you can't even OHKO it with CB, then there's no mistaking you won't be achieving much with scarf.

that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. overcentralise? hmm, that's not the word i would use. but it certainly overpowers and outclasses general tanking abilities in the OU tier.

Aquilae May 3rd, 2008 8:31 PM

If [email protected] invests in HP and Defence and has a +defence nature, its overall defences will be compromised as there is the omnipresent Ice and Ghost weakness and the advent of Life Orb and Choice Specs. CM takes an overly long time to set up, and Heracross and other fearsome physical sweepers are going to rape [email protected] even with those EVs.

If I invested solely in Special Defence and HP for Hippowdon, and put Curse on it, would that make me quasi-immune to any attack? No, for strong Special attacks still hurt a lot. The same situation with CroCune, it isn't that scary in D/P compared to Advance as many strong physical sweepers - Garchomp, Heracross will do a lot of damage. Without any CMs, special attacks still put a noticeable dent in Suicune.

I don't see any sacrifices being made on item and EV spread on any part. Metagross and Tyranitar can handle [email protected] even with the standard EV spread, and there is no reason to change it. By your reasoning, many pokemon have to change their movesets just to deal with [email protected] Unfortunately none of that should happen.

They do not risk being killed to kill it, as Metagross takes ~30% from neutral attacks, and can 2-3HKO. Tyranitar has the SpDef boost from Sandstorm and Pursuit, hurting [email protected] even more. There is no need for an OHKO because the counters to [email protected] can take their attacks easily and then proceed to cripple/KO it in some way. It is like saying that Blissey should not be used as a special wall because it cannot OHKO special sweepers.

Okay, all of Latios sets are outclassed by Salamence and taken care of with almost the same counters. Latias isn't too different - even if she is running a defensive set she will still take loads from SE hits, which is courtesy of the secondary Psychic typing.

To determine which position a pokemon holds in a tier requires evidence of overcentralisation of the metagame - every team being centered around countering this particular threat. I reiterate, [email protected] defences are nowhere near stellar and its offensive abilities are hindered by its poor movepool.

Samson May 3rd, 2008 10:08 PM

poor movepool? it's movepool is anything but poor. what hinders it from being offensively inclined is its stats, not its movepool.

choice specs ice beam and shadow ball from special sweepers, although not OHKOing it, damages it just as much as ubers would be damaged from their weaknesses. again, pointing out the fact that it becomes vulnerable to things that are specifically meant to counter it is not disregarding the fact that it is able to endure more opposition with a focus on defense rather sp def. using hippowdon as an example is just disheartening because it performs entirely different than latias: 1. it's a physical wall that can actually be called a wall. 2. it has only one significant resistance and several common weaknesses and 3. it doesn't have a speed that gives it an advantage over its potential counters.

again, you're mentioning metagross and ttar who obviously wall it, attempting not to shed light on the fact that they are few who can safely approach it. and again, i'm not discussing moves themselves. i'm discussing items and ev spreads. the main point is that it has 110 base speed, allowing it to dismantle choice item users with inferior speed. wanna know why cresselia wasn't placed into ubers? its speed and mediocre movepool. latias has both of these qualities at its arsenal, forcing counters who can give it good damage to decrease their damage output if they want to actually hit it or decrease their survivability (because of having to invest in speed and offenses). basically, CB Heracross would have to go near max speed when Adamant to do enough damage to it, setting the usual HP evs it has aside.

and i never tried to make the point that latias poses a death threat to it's counters. however, it can cause damage to them scouting, not being fearful of an OHKO and even further, can increase its defenses before they even reach the field. unlike cresselia, it has recycled usage after it has been severely damage when it reenters, requiring more than one counter for it.

so if you're asking whether teams take it as a force to be reckoned with when being built, they should. it's defenses AREN'T that great, but it doesn't die easily and has the ability to take several casualties when it does.

Aquilae May 4th, 2008 2:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samson (Post 3554605)
poor movepool? it's movepool is anything but poor. what hinders it from being offensively inclined is its stats, not its movepool.

choice specs ice beam and shadow ball from special sweepers, although not OHKOing it, damages it just as much as ubers would be damaged from their weaknesses. again, pointing out the fact that it becomes vulnerable to things that are specifically meant to counter it is not disregarding the fact that it is able to endure more opposition with a focus on defense rather sp def. using hippowdon as an example is just disheartening because it performs entirely different than latias: 1. it's a physical wall that can actually be called a wall. 2. it has only one significant resistance and several common weaknesses and 3. it doesn't have a speed that gives it an advantage over its potential counters.

again, you're mentioning metagross and ttar who obviously wall it, attempting not to shed light on the fact that they are few who can safely approach it. and again, i'm not discussing moves themselves. i'm discussing items and ev spreads. the main point is that it has 110 base speed, allowing it to dismantle choice item users with inferior speed. wanna know why cresselia wasn't placed into ubers? its speed and mediocre movepool. latias has both of these qualities at its arsenal, forcing counters who can give it good damage to decrease their damage output if they want to actually hit it or decrease their survivability (because of having to invest in speed and offenses). basically, CB Heracross would have to go near max speed when Adamant to do enough damage to it, setting the usual HP evs it has aside.

and i never tried to make the point that latias poses a death threat to it's counters. however, it can cause damage to them scouting, not being fearful of an OHKO and even further, can increase its defenses before they even reach the field. unlike cresselia, it has recycled usage after it has been severely damage when it reenters, requiring more than one counter for it.

so if you're asking whether teams take it as a force to be reckoned with when being built, they should. it's defenses AREN'T that great, but it doesn't die easily and has the ability to take several casualties when it does.

Its movepool may seem vast, but it doesn't do a good job countering the numerous things that are going to wall you. For example, Salamence gets Flamethrower/Fire Blast for Steels, while [email protected] has to settle for HP Fire. The loss of Shadow Ball doesn't hurt it either considering that the most common counters to it - Blissey, Tyranitar, resist or are immune to it, and inferior to its other options for damaging Metagross. Gengar and Mismagius likewise can be hit with about the same power with Dragon Pulse; higher with Draco Meteor, and they won't be switching into [email protected] anytime soon. The point that I am trying to bring across is that [email protected] has an inferior movepool which allows it to get walled by several common pokemon, and that an offensive set is generally outclassed by Salamence due to Flamethrower.

Ubers is a vastly different metagame from standard, it is more offense oriented and Latias is used as a special tank instead of a sweeper, about the same with Latios.

Okay, the counters being severely hindered by [email protected] higher base speed is not a good example, mainly because without speed investment [email protected]' base speed is a paltry 256, only enough to outrun base 77 252 neutral sweepers. What is more important is that its counters don't usually run speed - in Ttar's case about ~80 at max to outrun Skarm, in Meta its not required.

I was quoting Ttar and Metagross being its main counters in Ubers - even with the Soul Dew boost. I don't know its real counters in the standard metagame due to the differences in the Uber metagame and Standard.

Attempting to think of a list of counters:

Toxic/Twave Blissey ([email protected] without Refresh/Safeguard)
Crunch Snorlax
Registeel
Bronzong
CM Jirachi
Heatran
Magnezone?
Empoleon?
Scizor?

Oh I just listed out almost every steel in the game that has decent Special Defence.

Cresselia was not placed into Ubers because of its TYPING, which gives it unfortunate weaknesses, and the lack of a reliable recovery move besides Rest.
Latias also has the Psychic type, in addition it has the Dragon Type, so it can't wall Dragon special sweepers, mainly Salamence, and Ice Beam hurts a lot. Latias has a reliable recovery move but has crappier defenses than Cresselia, in addition to being unable to counter certain threats effectively.

CBHera is not a counter to [email protected] due to the low speed and possibility of being KOed by their attacks. Therefore CBHera should not be brought in to revenge kill [email protected]

It fears OHKOs from many common pokemon if it has not invested heavily in defences, it can scout but it would just be pursuited by one of its counters.

Teams should prepare for it the same way they prepare for SpecsMence, unlike [email protected] it can switch in on stuff like Heracross because of Intimidate, and it truly fits the definition of a pokemon that can come back and deal damage.
Garchomp is also another example to quote, simply put it can switch in on Electric attacks taking minimal damage from SR and threatening with its base 102 speed.

Okay, I'm just going to run some general damage calculations with Sweeper Latios. (4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Speed Timid)
Special Defensive Tyranitar - 240 HP/52 Atk/216 Sdef Careful
TyraniBoah - 252 HP/64 Attack/168 SpA/24 Spe

CB Max Attack Tyranitar Crunch on Latios - 175.4967% - 207.2848% (OHKO)
CB Max Attack Tyranitar Pursuit on Latios - 88.07947% - 103.9735% (2HKO, potential OHKO)
CB Max Attack Tyranitar Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 175.4967% - 207.2848% (OHKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Crunch on Latios - 137.7483% - 162.9139% (OHKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Pursuit on Latios - 69.53642% - 82.11921% (2HKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 137.7483% - 162.9139% (OHKO)
Jolly Tyranitar (Max Attack) Crunch on Latios - 105.9603% - 125.8278% (OHKO)
Quiet TyraniBoah Crunch on Latios - 93.37748% - 109.9338% (Potential OHKO)

Next, Metagross.

RestTalk Gross
- 176 Attack

CB Max Attack Metagross Meteor Mash on Latios - 110.2649% - 130.1325% (OHKO)
CB Max Attack Metagross Pursuit on Latios - 59.60265% - 70.19868% (2HKO)
CB Max Attack Metagross Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 117.8808% - 139.0728% (OHKO)
Max Attack LO Agiligross Meteor Mash on Latios - 95.36424% - 112.5828% (Potential OHKO)
RestTalk Gross Meteor Mash on Latios - 69.86755% - 82.78146% (2HKO)

Bronzong:

Standard Bronzong - 252 HP/152 Attack/8 Def/96 SpD, Relaxed, 0 Speed IV

Standard Bronzong Gyro Ball on Latios - 63.90728% - 75.49669% (2HKO)

I'll try to do the rest of the calculations later, but these three pose a threat to [email protected] due to their ability to shrug off most of its attacks.

Dark Azelf May 4th, 2008 7:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3552668)

BTW, I saw somebody mentioning that Toxic Blissey beats Latios, and I object to that. Substitute says hi.


Sub is not viable on [email protected], firstly why would you use it ? If you run sub, you have to drop either Recover, Calm Mind or One of its attacking moves. Making it even more easier to wall.

Anti May 4th, 2008 7:34 AM

Sub is very viable on Latios. It protects it from the ever-feared Pursuit and you can CM behind it. I love Recover, but you could play it like abetter Raikou, and it would most likely work.

Sub is viable on a lot of pokemon really.

Dark Azelf May 4th, 2008 7:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3555874)
Sub is very viable on Latios. It protects it from the ever-feared Pursuit and you can CM behind it. I love Recover, but you could play it like abetter Raikou, and it would most likely work.

Sub is viable on a lot of pokemon really.

Which moveset would you use the optimize its sweeping ?


Recover/CM/Sub/.Dragon Pulse ? Thats not sweeping anything, Steels, T-Tar, Snorlax etc.

Thats my point,which ever move you drop, its walled easily.

Divine~Deoxys May 4th, 2008 9:53 AM

I think al you've made a point about is that Latios is easily walled. Also, Latias is easily took down, so is actually worse than some normal OU pokes, as it has so many weaknesses.

Anti May 4th, 2008 10:29 AM

EDIT: nvm, I keep adding Dugtrio to that equation >_>

BTW, I support it being moved down, though I can't help but think that we could be seeing the uber metagame creep into standards too much.

Dark Azelf May 4th, 2008 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3556327)
EDIT: nvm, I keep adding Dugtrio to that equation >_>

BTW, I support it being moved down, though I can't help but think that we could be seeing the uber metagame creep into standards too much.


Nah, i think it will stop after this, there have been pokes that have been nerved from advance yo D/P., The main ones have been moved or are currently considered to be moved down.

Its not like Lugia, Giratina and Deoxys attack etc are gonna get moved down it it lol XD

Anti May 4th, 2008 12:24 PM

When I saw Lugia I broke into laughter. Luckily I happen to have a Snorlax on my team so this won't hurt at all =) BTW I do support this, since they have enough counters I suppose.

ABYAY May 4th, 2008 12:30 PM

I think it's just the fact that the Latis aren't Ubers, but the item, Soul Dew, is Uber. I say this because when the Latis are stripped of that, they're less than their normal selves, and don't function to their full ability without it.

sims796 May 4th, 2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3556704)
When I saw Lugia I broke into laughter. Luckily I happen to have a Snorlax on my team so this won't hurt at all =) BTW I do support this, since they have enough counters I suppose.

This seriously concerns me, to no end, and is why I hope that 5th gen will come soon. Hopefully, it won't get picked apart as easily.

Arcknight316 May 4th, 2008 7:08 PM

OK, I haven't posted for a LONG time, so I am now demoted to a n00b....

but..there are A LOT of faster things that can Ice it to death. Those that aren't faster can at least switch in.

The problem is, every time you bring in a counter, they'd switch. And revenge killing is VERY obvious....

AH! I'm all for the Lati's getting into OU, but I can't think of any counters!!!! Especially since almost NOTHING OHKO's it (and there's a lot that doesn't 2HKO, either), while it's not very safe to switch in. Even very sturdy steels will be destroyed instantly by the CM version...if it has Sub (hint: Raikou).

Hmm..what to do....

Spoiler:
Also, I haven't been updated on the news, is Garchomp banned yet?

Dark Azelf May 5th, 2008 4:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nightfall* (Post 3557754)
OK, I haven't posted for a LONG time, so I am now demoted to a n00b....

but..there are A LOT of faster things that can Ice it to death. Those that aren't faster can at least switch in.

The problem is, every time you bring in a counter, they'd switch. And revenge killing is VERY obvious....

AH! I'm all for the Lati's getting into OU, but I can't think of any counters!!!! Especially since almost NOTHING OHKO's it (and there's a lot that doesn't 2HKO, either), while it's not very safe to switch in. Even very sturdy steels will be destroyed instantly by the CM version...if it has Sub (hint: Raikou).

Hmm..what to do....

Spoiler:
Also, I haven't been updated on the news, is Garchomp banned yet?



Read the past few pages please, i shouldnt have to ask that, reading the whole thread before posting is in the rules, it tells you some of the counters.

Yes, Garchomp is banned and has been for the past month.


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