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True there are some aspects that are common knowledge that need no testing, but if it seems to be a widspread agreement that testing is needed then why no start now?
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Okay, I didn't read the whole thread in PC, but I did read the threads on Smogon about the [email protected] testing. Basically here are my thoughts:
First, what does [email protected] bring to the metagame? Latios: 80/90/80/110/130/110 Latias: 80/90/80/110/110/130 Weaknesses: Ice (2x), Dark (2x), Bug (2x), Dragon (2x), Ghost (2x) Resistances: Fire (0.5x), Water (0.5x), Grass (0.5x), Electric (0.5x), Fighting (0.5x), Psychic (0.5x), Ground (Immune) Right from the start the Dark, Bug and Ghost weaknesses hurt it as it can't effectively deal with Gengar, and would be countered by random Pursuiters, especially Tyranitar. Heracross would also put a big hole with Megahorn. No 4x Ice weakness. No revenge killing with Mamoswine/Weavile. No random Ice Beams/HP Ice would screw you up. That is arguably the biggest advantage [email protected] has over their fellow dragons and other special walls, and could be used for Sp.Walling. The resistances may seem great, but apart from Fire and Grass, most of the resistances do not seem good enough. For one thing, Electric and Water types commonly pack Ice attacks, and Fighting types do have an SE move against [email protected] Now on to the movesets. As explained in the thread in the Policy Review in Smogon, each of the respective offensive movesets have their own pros and cons. CMLatios has moveslot syndrome, Specs and Scarf Latios are outclassed by some pokemon in general, and are easily walled. To add on, Choiced pokemon with a Pursuit weakness are a great liability in D/P as explained by Great Sage, Ttar and stuff would come in and Pursuit Latios to death. The common counters for [email protected] in Ubers will be more threatening to them in OU. What the thread and the Eon tournament did not show is a clear indication of Latias' abilities. A minimal number of Latias were used in the Eon tournament, and therefore cannot be properly analysed. Latias has access to Wish and a higher SD, something Latios cannot boast. Both Latis have Roar, Latias utilises it better able to phaze Calm Minders and such. Latias, as a more defensive pokemon can use Reflect and Light Screen to ppass. Therefore both of them have almost completely different roles. I feel that coth of them should be allowed in testing in OU WITHOUT Soul Dew, but this is not the right time for it with all the furore over Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent, Deoxys-E (MS still thinks its uber...). |
Yay, I love these discussion threads. =P
Hey, just a thought guys, could we hold a small tournament which allows the use of [email protected], similar to shoddy? This would help in that regard. Other than that, we could hold some test battles via shoddy to see how that threat list really holds up. I've been following this for some time on Smogon actually, and I like how D_A has these ideas, Smogon shouldn't be the only one left to discuss these things. ~T_S |
Simply put, a tournament would not be sufficient to gauge the viability of [email protected] Considering the small community of battlers (I think I can remember almost all of them), and the fact that Smogon's tourney was 64 people and yet failed to come to an accurate conclusion.
A test on Shoddy would be sufficient, but I reiterate, now is not the time to be testing [email protected] |
I think it is the perfect time. When would you consider it be the 'perfect time' pray tell? It's not going to make any difference if we do it now or in a month. I just think it should be discussed, and that list seems to have some flaws, as Anti pointed out.
~T_S |
As I already said in my last posts, Wobb and D-E are causing a lot of controversy, particularly Wobbuffet where lots of people are against it "taking the fun away from battles", "removing stall", "uncounterable" etc.
[email protected] would not cause as much controversy as Wobbuffet but would affect the metagame a lot. The Wobbuffet testing was evidence enough that the community can only take so much at one time. I suggest the more important issues at hand should be resolved, Wobbuffet and to a lesser extent Garchomp. Anti pointed out the flaws in the list, but the list was not the only thing that MR mentioned. We already know how Pursuit Ttar and Metagross completely stop [email protected], and MR already explained the pros and cons of the sets and whether it would be outclassed by sweepers. The list made by MR was to see whether [email protected] could effectively counter the top 15 threats in the OU metagame, not to see which counters [email protected] |
I never said introduce the Lati twins to the whole community, just to the select few of us in this discussion thread so we can actually see the 'counterability' of them in the OU metagame. I am in agreement with your points, but I think we all seriously believe Wobby should be Uber and Deoxys-E is too sub-par to be Uber, and it's even being considered for...BL.
~T_S |
Bah. A "few of us".
Anywho, I'm at an impass. I'd love to say "yes, OU-ify them. But I'm still not completely convinced. I have to agree with Aquillae. Forget these two for the time being, there are bigger, Wobblier fish to fry. I dunno. I keep thinking, how would MY team fair against them? It works fine as it is, but would I need to make drastic changes? |
Metagross is near a 100% counter to Lati's considering their only move that can hit it is HP Fire, and Metagross 2HKOs with CB Meteor Mash.
Tyranitar can also come in on [email protected] without Grass Knot and proceed to dish out pain with Pursuit. A specially defensive Tyranitar (Careful, 252 HP, 42 Attack, 216 SpD) can come in and do damage to [email protected] while not taking major damage from Grass Knot. Metagross and Tyranitar are two of the main counters for [email protected], I'm not so sure about the special walls due to the possibility of CM. |
Would that be a bit...over centralizing? I don't care for Ttar at all, and I don't care for Meta that much, especially since I suffer from pokeslot syndrome.
Those aren't it's only counters, are they? |
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Dark, Ghost, Bug, ice, Dragon Moves also I know you have at least one of those moves on your teams. |
Ah, not so different, then. It seems they might fall from a single Dragon Claw from my...
Ok, then, I'm cool. I had just noticed their sub-par Defsive stats. |
I've noticed you are all saying stuff about Wobby being tested as wel, and i just want to point out onething: It has great Hp, but is rubbish in other stats, only learns seven moves, and is easily countered by almost anything, as a move wouldn't have to be super-effective to 1HKO it really. With the [email protected] thing, i feel really strongly that it should not be uber if it doesn't hold Soul Dew, as they are both weak to anything physical, as well as the fact that almost everyone has a Dragon, Ice,Bug,Dark or Ghost move in their team. Also, why do we use Smogon's rules? Why don't we just state it as a rule here that [email protected] aren't uber unlesss they have a Soul Dew? You could just do the same thing with Deoxys-E, say it isn't uber as far as you're concerned, and use it. I'm a huge fan of the [email protected] , but hate most other ubers (especialy Dialga, as he made me wonder why i didn't by pearl instead), which makes it a pain in the arss to raise a team of ubers just to be able to use 2 of my favourite pokes (the other is Dragonite, as my sig might imply). I know this is probably the longest reply i have ever posted, but i do think this is really important.Just making a point or two.
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Well you should'nt be trying to use Ubers in standard matches unless they somehow become unbanned. |
"IT WEZ L3TS IN DIS DRAGON I GUNNA KEEEELLLL UZ ALL 4 BAN CHOMP!"
I'm kinda with Aquillae on this one, we really shouldn't be worried about these two at this time. The metagame has other controversal monsters to handle and it keeps swinging this way and that way, can't we do things one at a time! xD At first glance, it looks usable for OU, however I'm not jumping on the bandwagon just yet. I wonder how overcentralizing this will become if it is used, just imagine all the newbs using it just because it looks cool. Also a tournament doesn't really give the correct measures in my opinion. The worry of not being able to tell wether they even have soul dew on is another point. What happened to the good ol' days! I'll give more of my opinion review on [email protected] later~ |
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I dont think the Soul Dew thing will be much of an issue. In regards to weather or not they pack it. Really you CAN tell by the amount of damage it takes/deals, damage calcs are helpful if there is controversy, and people found to be using SD will be DQ'd. You can tell its spec'd due to when it gets walled, it has to switch out. Lefties and Life Orb should be obvious too. But i kinda see where your coming from. |
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I think it would be okay to let these guys in for a month to test the affects. It would also be a nice idea to have a tournament with these guys! Mind if I host it? 8D Even if a tournament can't fully cover the affect of a metagame... We do have to decide wobba, D-E, and RE-evaluate Garchomp now that a month has turned. (in 4 days or something) After we figure out all of those guys, I say we then tackle [email protected] <- that's gonna be my new email. ;P Anyway! I think they could be used. What set do you think would be the greatest "centralizing" in the metagame? |
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Calm Mind/Sub or Safeguard or <Insert another attack move >/Recover/Dragon pulse. Still gets owned by steel types. Gah WHY CANT YOU STUPID EON DRAGONS GET FIRE BLAST >=[! SURE, WE'RE GAME FREAK, AND WE EVEN GIVE SLOWBRO FIRE BLAST/FLAMETHROWER =/ !!1111. Lets face it, Latios has moveset syndrome, Tar is going to own it without Grass knot anyways, so meh. In fact, Pursuit in general, ouch.... Its sets are wall-able, no matter which set you run and with 5 Weaks, its making Celebi blush. Latias i however think CAN be a nice niche in your team, like countering Ape, Gyarados, providing Wish support and PHazing Calm Minders etc.. Why does Wobby even need to be re-considered, its broken and has no counters and forces teams to use Taunt and what not ? I have said this before, the ONLY reason its still OU on shoddy is the fact that no one uses it out respect for other players. Stay in Uber noaw !!! Deoxys cant sweep for crap, its an awesome revenge killer, but thats bout it, unless everyone fears the Spiker set. Knock Off or Taunt / Spikes/ <Attack move here> / Recover =/. Ou plzzz Chomp, could be argued, but the no counters really kicks it in the face. Debatable, but i still think its REALLY broken. I think we may have to bring this to the Raters Guild to discuss it more however. As for that tourney, you may be the host if you really wish, but Wifi or Shoddy ? I think we'll need more than one person in charge to monitor it. If all goes well, i think getting feedback about [email protected] would be great from players that use it/go against it. I agree, though, not just yet, when we've cleared stuff up about Chomp and Wobby mainly, D-E really isnt an issue tbh. |
all i have to say: recover + movepool makes them broken enough to do fine in ubers and too broken for OU. sure, they have defensive weaknesses that make them vulnerable to pokes like weavile who have easy access to swords dance, but they can shrug off every other kind of hits.
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I believe, if [email protected] had fireblast, then they get too powerful, so I'm actually glad they don't have such a powerful fire attack. Last time I checked, our tier list has wobby saying OU. So... we need to clear that up. >>; I too believe wobby is uber. Deoxys annoys the heck out of me, but I guess it's OU, I really don't know much about D-E as I always tend to ignore it exists. For the tournament, without a doubt it'd be shoddy, as if it were wifi it would be really hard to obtain good [email protected] now wouldn't it? The amount of monitors would be determined by how many people sign up. (yeah, I kinda have already been thinking of how to set everything up since I saw this thread to be honest) :x Also, to note, we don't really have a large affect on shoddy anyway, just because shoddy has something OU, doesnt mean we should. Our tier list has wobby listed OU... because of shoddy? so why do we have garchomp banned when shoddy hasn't banned it? See, we really shouldn't base our opinions on what they do. We are PC, not shoddy, not smogon, PC. Let's start acting like it. See we contridict ourselves there, let's ban wobby here already, we arn't shoddy we don't control them, and as far as I know, we havn't established a server there yet. On Garchomp... well I'm currently supporting the ban, but not going to lie, I'm still reviewing it. ANYWAY, on topic. When should the tournament be held is the question? ASAP? Wait a week of review of the lati twins, some opinion on that. |
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Hey, i have a good Latias, well, its not mine actually, its Jibakus's XD Haha, but yeah, shoddy would be ok i guess. As for the tourney, a week should do it. The raters guild i think would be the best place to discuss it. The ins and outs etc. Also, cant the Recover and movepool thing be said about Deoxys, Jirachi (Wish) and to a lesser extent Celebi etc ? The Latis still have counters, even if they do have an awesome movepool. |
deoxys is very fragile, jirachi can't do much to its counters and celebi is VERY limited. [email protected] can actually threaten their counters and latios, specifically, can just completely overpower opponents with its excellent sp atk, it's speed and one dragon dance, although its physical movepool ain't all that great to be honest. still, it is able to outspeed scarfers that have the potential to OHKO it and outlast hits from bulkier opponents while retaliating with both forms of attack. sure, latias isn't all that great but it can live up to a standard higher than cresselia because of its movepool and recover, plus the resistances that its dragon typing offers and it's ability to bring fear to sweepers who think they can get away with a 2HKO because of her speed.
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Basically, to put stories short: Wobb is uber, keep it where it's supposed to be. Deoxys - S has only little, if any, potential in Ubers, and OU could be a nice place for it. Sure it's faster than everything, but its average attack stats don't help too much when its low HP gives in.
[email protected] itself, in my opinion, is OU. Soul Dew is Uber. Yes, an item is uber... Now if it got Fire Blast or something of the likes, then I'd understand it'd be highly restricted to Ubers. Also, there's one pokemon out there that can basically destroy the Latis...Shedinja anyone? Not only does it get two SE STAB moves in on the eon twins, but Wonder Guard basically makes it invincible to the Latis, barring SE Hidden Powers and Toxic...or something retarded like Aerial Ace. I guess you could consider Shedinja as a wonderful counter if you protect it from weather and switch-in traps like spikes and such. |
yah cus people use shedinja because of it's overall ability to counter and survive ._.
and about flamethrower/fire blast: not having them is the only thing that would qualify them for OU, but doesn't necessarily mean that they would be uber classed if they did. fire type attacks are quite useless in ubers and wouldn't make them more suited to take on ubers. it would only help them take on bronzong and registeel who are honestly the only steels that can shrug at them. |
:O Slowbro gets Flamethrower?!?!?!?
Wow. Anyways, let me get my two bits in on this. I think Latias should be OU. Latios, I'm not sure about. I don't really feel like figuring out damage calcs, but since the average set on Latias has only one or two attacking moves... And yes, it can be sweeper-ified, but Latias's 20 Point deficit in SA should be enough that it can be surivived. Latios, I'm not sure about. I'm in between, although I'm leaning more towards OU-ification, for mostly all the reasons already stated. Now, Wobbufett, although Shadow Tag stops you, almost all of my Pokemon on my main team have stat-boosting moves. So Wobbufett can be set up on easily. Two Dragon Dances, and CRUNCH. No more Wobby. Course, if they switch, I'm probably dead. Thus, it should remain in ubers. Deoxys-E is raped by Gyro Ball and slaughtered with most priority moves. Without Fire Punch, it can't even really stand up that well in OU (Purely in my opinion, don't UU-ify it). Garchomp - Well, we've been through this once already. Best not go back. |
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