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-   -   Shoddy Team- Revised and Remade (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=138838)

. May 25th, 2008 2:39 PM

Shoddy Team- Tyranitar's Rage
 
Tyranitar's Rage


http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk440/michelle_kayla_55/Pokemon/286breloom.png
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Adamant
Poison Heal
44 HP/214 Att/252 Spe
Substitute
Focus Punch
Seed Bomb
Spore

Breloom makes the only decent lead for my team. Most would expect the Anti-Lead, only to have their counter Spore'd and giving me a single free Sub. Poison Heal and Toxic Orb make a mean combo.


http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/MKPokemonMaster/Gliscor.png
[email protected] Leftovers
Impish
Sand Veil
252 Att, 252 Spe, 6 HP
Aerial Ace
Earthquake
Taunt
Roost

This thing is used to shut down things like Blissey and Skarm (though the former can carry Ice Beam) It also negates Heracross and Lucario, two things my team really, REALLY hate.

http://i27.tinypic.com/21awo5d.png
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Adamant
Sandstream
252 HP/252 Att/6 SpD
Stone Edge
Crunch
Earthquake
Focus Punch

CBTar comes back to offer my team a freakishly powerful monster. Stone Edge and Crunch make reliable STABs, while Earthquake let me hammer things that resist both of the above. Focus Punch is there mostly to hit things on the switch.


http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm207/Umbreon999_2008/thBlissey.png
Blissey @ Leftovers
Calm
Natural Cure
80 SpA, 252 Def, 176 Sp Def
Softboiled
Toxic
Seismic Toss
Ice Beam

Queen of Special walling comes back for another go. I went with Calm this time because I'm subjected to Peer Pressure.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/hijiri_lover_rin/Pokemon/Kingdra.png
Kingdra @ Leftovers
Timid
Pressure
252 HP/184 SpA/72 Spe
Rest
Sleep Talk
HP Electric
Surf

wut? Yep, Kingdra is actually the tank and main counter for Gyarados and Infernape on my team (since they get run over by it pretty hard) This thing is a monster of a physical tank, taking about 42% from LO Nape's Close Combat.


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/Climax_jump_2008/s_regirock.png
Regirock @ Leftovers
Careful
Clear
252 HP, 252 SpD, 6 Att
Curse
Rest
Stone Edge
Earthquake


Regirock comes in to give me a sort of "mixed wall" It has ridiculously beastly defense, and Tyranitar gives it some extremely helpful Special Defense.


Changes
*Changed Azelf for Blissey
*Changed Infernape for Lucario
*Changed Tyraniboah to DDtar
*Changed Hippowdon for Deoxys-e
*Changed Lucario for Infernape
*Changed Deoxys-e for Starmie
*Changed DDTar to CBTar, leading with CBTar
*Changed Infernape to Lucario (again)
*Changed Cresselia for Gliscor
*Changed Skarmory (<3333) for Gardevoir
*Changed Starmie for Vaporeon
*Changed Gardevoir for Metagross
*Changed Metagross for Heatran
*Changed Vaporeon for Tentacruel
*Changed Lucario for Machamp
*Changed Tentacruel for Zapdos, leading with Zapdos
*Changed CBTar to DDTar
*Changed Zapdos to Bronzong
*Changed Bronzong to Swampert
*Changed Swampert to Suicune, leading with Gliscor
*Changed Bold Blissey to Calm Blissey
*Changed DDTar to Scarftar, leading with Scarftar
*Changed Scarfed Heatran to Alakazam
*Changed Alakazam to Porygon-Z
*Changed Porygon-Z to SpecsPoreon
*Changed Scarftar to DDTar, leading with Gliscor
*Changed Machamp to Heracross
*Changed Heracross to Gallade
*Changed Gallade to Medicham
*Changed Medicham to Mismagius
*Changed Vaporeon to Celebi
*Changed Celebi for Cresselia
*Changed Cresselia for Lucario
*Changed Mismagius for Deoxys-e
*Changed Suicune (<333333333333333333333333333333) for Regirock
*Changed Lucario for Breloom, leading with Breloom
*Changed Deoxys-e for Azelf
*Changed Azelf for Kingdra

Considering



Anti May 25th, 2008 5:38 PM

I simple can't stand this font...anyways...

I'd get a special wall...Cresselia is mixed and is best used for countering dragons, MixApe and such.

You could run Blissey or some other generic pokemon like that if you wish. I'd probably run it over Azelf, since it isn't really helping against Weavile all that much. But I will say that Azelf's nickname is epic. Simply epic.

As for weaknesses, Yanmega and friends aren't really pals. Skarmory actually resists its attacks, but I wouldn't place bets on it winning, especially with the possibility of Hypnosis or Tinted Lens. Opposing Tyraniboah ironically give you lots of trouble. Skarmory can kind of wall Ice Beam Boah, but not really.

While you aren't weak to Dugtrio, a Jolly version can kill your only means of beating blissey and more importantly, Curse Snorlax.

Also, all of your sweeeprs require set-up to do any real damage, so you lack anyhting that can instantly kill stuff.

It isn't a bad team though.

. May 25th, 2008 6:07 PM

Thanks for the critique!

I noticed the set up thing too, but Infernape can KO things without a SD anyway. The only reason I keep it is because with 1-2 SD, it can clobber practically anything.

So far, SkarmCress has been working wonderfully, as has Azelf, so I'll battle a little more until I decide if getting a Special wall is a necessity.

Unless Tyraniboah gets a Sub off, Skarmory can Toxic stall it pretty easily. I've taken out threats like Hippowdon/Mamo with Toxic. But I do believe unless Tyraniboah gets sub off, Skarm can stall it with BB/Roost/Toxic (if it packs a flamethrower I'm screwed though)

And as for the Azelf name, I got the name from you :D I now see the light that Gengar is nothing compared to the Elf.

Anti May 25th, 2008 7:38 PM

I'd rather use faildisc over Gengar since they both do nothing, only you get serious props for using something us terrible as faildisc =D

Also, Skarmory can't get past Tar's sub. Tar is faster too, so it can practically switch in on Skarmory (besides Toxic) and lay down a hurting.

On the physical walling side, your team is strong. On the special walling side, it isn't though. I really would replace one of your sweepers for a defensively-stable team. Honestly, I'd get rid of boah. Defensively, it isn't doing anything for you and offensively, it just isn't necessary (besides for maybe Cresselia, but meh).

Overall I'd still say it's solid. I think our battle proved you also might wanna watch out for NP Togekiss. Toxic Blissey would help in that regard.

. May 25th, 2008 7:48 PM

I'm liking the Boah really. Azelf isn't really doing much for me.

Would a Toxic Blissey or Twave Blissey do well over Azelf?

Anti May 25th, 2008 8:33 PM

Either one works, but Toxic Blissey does a lot better against Togekiss.

. May 25th, 2008 8:36 PM

I'll try Toxic Blissey. Never used it, but I was getting tired of grounds coming into stop my T-wave.

BeachBoy May 25th, 2008 9:10 PM

Okay, so now you two walls (SkarmBliss) with toxic, is that really necessary? I mean, I'd try Stealth Rock over Toxic on Skarmory, SR does a nice hit into Gyarados which, in our battle, caused you some problems. Try SR out in my opinion.

Anti May 25th, 2008 9:13 PM

On that note, Gyarados is going to melt you if you don't put Charge Beam on Cresselia. I'd take off Psychic since Azelf counters Mixape...kinda. You could abandon sleep Talk and run Aromatherapy Blissey.

BeachBoy May 25th, 2008 9:15 PM

I agree with charge beam in there as well.

My Gyarados and Suicune were a pretty big tole on your team, you only got to Suicune with Azelf and now that that's gone. Well, Calmcune just has another pocket monster to set up a sub to avoid toxic get some in couple calm minds and do some pretty big damage. So I think something in there to take care of those guys...

. May 25th, 2008 9:19 PM

I was thinking on Charge Beam, but didn't know if it was more useful than Psychic. The Sp Att boost is very appealing.

As for Sleep Talk, I want to keep Ice Beam/Seismic Toss so I can hit everything in the game. Seismic Toss just means Failgar will wall me like crazy.

Aquilae May 25th, 2008 9:52 PM

First off, CBHeracross would give you a huge problem, 4/6ths of your team is OHKOed by it, the rest are 2HKOed.
SDLuke with Crunch 6-0es this whole team.

No solid offense means no way of taking down defensive statuppers, CroCune is one of notable mention. With all these Bulky Waters are going to be switching in every time and sponging every hit you deal.
Not to mention most of the common Spikers can come in on everything sans Infernape and setup. You are going to be beaten down horribly by pure stall, and nothing to protect against it other than Toxic on Blissey.

There are also ample opportunities for Metagross and Tyranitar to come in on Cresselia or Blissey and Pursuit to death. Without Reflect Cress doesn't stand a chance against these physical powerhouses.

What you should do is replace Hippowdon, its role is more or less covered by Skarmory. Put another sweeper over it, a Gliscor/BulkySalamence should fit the spot.

Get rid of Boah. Its too slow to attack effectively and it is walled indefinitely by Bulky Waters, the bane to this team. Replace it with CBTyranitar.

I would put another statup sweeper over Infernape, as Infernape can't pull off a sweep due to its fraility, and can't switchin effectively. Lucario would have a place here, serving as a great switchin to Tyranitar.

. May 26th, 2008 11:52 AM

I'm really liking Boah honestly. CBTar is okay, but the one move is kind of a problem since Tar can't switch into much due to many weaknesses. Still, Lucario being able to switch into Tar's counters is helpful (minus fighting, which is why SkarmCress is there) I'd use DDTar but it takes a while to set up and I want hard, powerful forces at the beginning.

I'm really debating over CBTar or Boah...It's a tough choice to make.

I'm thinking on getting rid of Hippowdon for Azelf again. Grass Knot is damn helpful against so many bulky waters (even Gyarados cries)

I replace Nape with Lucario, it's amazing with its physical moveset.

Aquilae May 26th, 2008 3:51 PM

On the contrary, Boah has more trouble than CBtar switching into stuff as it can't directly threaten them.

Tyranitar can switch in into TB/HP Ice users and pose an immediate threat, forcing a switch. The 50% SpD boost from Sandstorm allows Tyranitar to take threatening special attackers.

Boah does not pack enough power and it is not clear what you would want to use it for. 95 base SpA is quite low, the reason Boah is used is to eliminate physical and special walls, Blissey, Gliscor and friends.
Boah is also slow as molasses, in stark contrast to CBtar being able to outrun Skarm, Cress with required EV investment. Boah only strives to barely outrun Blissey.

CBtar is clearly superior as it possesses the ability to 1-2HKO its counters, Gliscor is OHKOed by critical Stone Edge (12.5% chance), Skarm is 2HKOed by Stone Edge - CBtar can outrun it, the list goes on.

. May 26th, 2008 4:40 PM

At the moment, I'm using DDtar. It's won me 3 matches in a row (which isn't much)

If it starts to disappoint me, I'll switch to CB.

Anti May 26th, 2008 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3614776)
At the moment, I'm using DDtar. It's won me 3 matches in a row (which isn't much)

If it starts to disappoint me, I'll switch to CB.

I wouldn't be so quick to pull the trigger on things. Pokemon aren't going to do well every battle. I've had streaks of matches where Mamoswine has done nothing for me, and taking it out results in losses. My point being, stay with things. If it really fits the team, it should do fine.

. May 27th, 2008 3:41 AM

I realize that, which is why I said "which isn't much" And by disappoint me, I mean do absolutely nothing in practically every battle, or feel like it doesn't belong on the team.

Mamoswine doing nothing? O___O Isn't that like...An oxymoron?

CBtar will be tested after a while, then I will make my decision.

Archer May 27th, 2008 5:10 AM

Anti's right. Something can seem to be doing nothing, but is really backing up your team. Or you have a run of not seeing anything it counters and then things change.

What concerns me, is the inbalance the team seems to have. It does fine defensively but you really have trouble hitting the special side of the spectrum. You have, what? 3 Special Attacks on the whole team, 2 of which are duplicates. Gliscor Walls both Physical Attackers, and scores a SE, STABed EQ on both.

. May 27th, 2008 11:54 AM

I'm considering switching Hippowdon for Deoxys-e. I had an Azelf but I replaced it for Blissey.

The Special attack weakness was eating me up inside today, I'll go for Deoxys-e over Azelf since it can lead pretty nicely.

tylerowicz May 28th, 2008 12:11 PM

hey im looking for a deoxys to
are the ones from japan (the one that can only be hasty and something else)
have set ivs??
or can i look for someone who soft reset?

Dark Azelf May 28th, 2008 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerowicz (Post 3620487)
hey im looking for a deoxys to
are the ones from japan (the one that can only be hasty and something else)
have set ivs??
or can i look for someone who soft reset?

Thats spam, this is not the place for that.

Use the Simple Question and answer thread =/

tylerowicz May 28th, 2008 12:36 PM

its not spam
im asking the dude who made the thread bout his deoxys and if its like that
and if so were i can get one

Dark Azelf May 28th, 2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerowicz (Post 3620570)
its not spam
im asking the dude who made the thread bout his deoxys and if its like that
and if so were i can get one


If you didnt notice the name of the forum, its called "Strategy and movesets" and as it happens this is a Rate my team thread, not "Where did you get your deoxys" thread . So its not contributing to the topic.


Take this sort of thing to pm or ask in the simple questions thread about how to obtain Deoxys.

. May 28th, 2008 4:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerowicz (Post 3620487)
hey im looking for a deoxys to
are the ones from japan (the one that can only be hasty and something else)
have set ivs??
or can i look for someone who soft reset?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tylerowicz (Post 3620570)
its not spam
im asking the dude who made the thread bout his deoxys and if its like that
and if so were i can get one

You sir have made my day. This is SHODDY BATTLE. You create a team without IV calculating, EV training, stuff like that.

Spam spam spam and more spam in my thread? DOES NOT WANT.


On topic, Deoxys does pretty nicely as lead.

Aquilae May 28th, 2008 5:04 PM

Deoxys as a lead is misrepresenting its true strengths, as a revenge killer. D-E sucks as a lead as it does not have the offensive power to damage several other leads, base 95 attack stats leave much to be desired. Not to mention D-E is walled by a lot of common pokemon - Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross, Celebi, Blissey to name the most prominent threats.

D-E single handedly revenge kills a lot of offensive threats though, particularly the Life Orb version which decimates a team with its insane speed and ability to switch moves, something that does not come with a Choice Scarfer like Gengar.

Tyranitar is a far better lead, a lot of people expect (or do not expect) the CB versions and the Mixed Choice Scarf versions.

Nonetheless I still recommend you to drop Infernape for a better sweeper - your team does not really give Infernape a chance to set up, Deoxys-E already does a much better job at lategame cleaning.
I still stand by Lucario, giving your team support against Tyranitar, and posing a much greater threat as a setup sweeper with its priority moves. HP Ice or Crunch in the last slot depending on the players you are facing, for some odd reason lower-ranked people tend to switch Dusknoir into Luke, and all higher-ranked people carry a Gliscor #_#

Still no reliable Fighting resist by the way, Cresselia gets laughed at by Heracross and Lucario.
Dugtrio doesn't trap Skarm =X

. May 29th, 2008 3:46 AM

Do you reccomend me to use CBtar as a lead and switch D-E for Gengar or Azelf?

KantoJohto May 30th, 2008 7:51 AM

Can someone give me a decent moveset for a Naive Venusaur?

Dark Azelf May 30th, 2008 7:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KantoJohto (Post 3625888)
Can someone give me a decent moveset for a Naive Venusaur?

No. This is NOT the place for that.


Use the simple question and answer thread, which a sticky and easy to see. At the top.

. June 7th, 2008 8:14 AM

Well, I've updated my team. But I feel that it lacks Special Attacks. Perhaps Azelf/Deoxys-e > Gliscor?

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 8:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3651859)
Well, I've updated my team. But I feel that it lacks Special Attacks. Perhaps Azelf/Deoxys-e > Gliscor?

Than what do you have that can switch in to Heracross and counter it? =/ All of your team fears one of is moves and cannot dare switch in. Especially on CB Cross who will devour at least 1/3 of your team.

. June 7th, 2008 8:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Salamence 1.1 (Post 3651888)
Than what do you have that can switch in to Heracross and counter it? =/ All of your team fears one of is moves and cannot dare switch in. Especially on CB Cross who will devour at least 1/3 of your team.

I just had a battle, and it seems Weezing and Gyarados counter my team :(

I really think either Deoxys-e or Azelf (the former since it has a better movepool) should go over Skarmory.

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 8:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3651898)
I just had a battle, and it seems Weezing and Gyarados counter my team :(

I really think either Deoxys-e or Azelf (the former since it has a better movepool) should go over Skarmory.

o_O Starmie counters Gyarados and Gardevoir does fine against Weezing so you could use it. =]

. June 7th, 2008 8:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Salamence 1.1 (Post 3651921)
o_O Starmie counters Gyarados and Gardevoir does fine against Weezing so you could use it. =]

Starmie does, but if they have Blissey they keep switching and I'm walled. Lucario gets murdered by Weezing.

Gardy o.0 Deoxys or Azelf does a better job than Gardy IMO.

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 8:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3651929)
Starmie does, but if they have Blissey they keep switching and I'm walled. Lucario gets murdered by Weezing.

Gardy o.0 Deoxys or Azelf does a better job than Gardy IMO.

They can't take Sludge Bomb as well or any status as good as Gardy. =] and they will regret Life Orb recoil+Poison damage that increases every turn IIRC. Gardevoir can also Wish pass and can heal itself while Will-O-Wisping any Physical sweeper. Although Blissey walls it and Starmie. =[

. June 7th, 2008 8:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Salamence 1.1 (Post 3651958)
They can't take Sludge Bomb as well or any status as good as Gardy. =] and they will regret Life Orb recoil+Poison damage that increases every turn IIRC. Gardevoir can also Wish pass and can heal itself while Will-O-Wisping any Physical sweeper. Although Blissey walls it and Starmie. =[

Deoxys is mostly meant as a revenge killer.


But I am interested in Gardy. I wanna try it out. Best set for it for my team?

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 8:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3651964)
Deoxys is mostly meant as a revenge killer.


But I am interested in Gardy. I wanna try it out. Best set for it for my team?

[email protected]
252 HP/48 Special Attack/144 Special Defense/32 Speed/32 Defense
Modest
Trace
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Psychic
Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Thunderbolt

Support Gardy that also counters Gyarados and Weezing. :D EVs make it bulky to take hits.

. June 7th, 2008 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Salamence 1.1 (Post 3651983)
[email protected]
252 HP/48 Special Attack/144 Special Defense/32 Speed/32 Defense
Modest
Trace
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Psychic
Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Thunderbolt

Support Gardy that also counters Gyarados and Weezing. :D EVs make it bulky to take hits.

Tough decision xD.

Thanks DS, I'm guessing this set is superior to the CM set?

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 9:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3651985)
Tough decision xD.

Thanks DS, I'm guessing this set is superior to the CM set?

The Calm Mind set can only have one move to help it and isn't meant to counter Gyarados or Electivire, either Will-O-Wisp or Wish. Wish makes it fragile against Physical Sweepers while Will-O-Wisp makes it have no recovery which simply isn't good at all when it's so fragile and no recovery for its partners either. :(

. June 7th, 2008 9:10 AM

BulkyGard it is then. Bye Skarm, you served me well.

Anti June 7th, 2008 10:49 AM

Stone Edge is useless on Gliscor...I don't know why people use it besides "Gyarados switch-ins" which is the saddest excuse to use something I've ever seen in my life. Use whatever the other option was.

As for this quote:

"Starmie does [counter Gyarados and Weezing], but if they have Blissey they keep switching and I'm walled."

Or you could put your thinking cap on and predict the obvious Blissey switch-in and let it have fun with CBtar ;) Always works.

EDIT: BTW you're really CM Missy weak.

. June 7th, 2008 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop (Post 3652214)
Stone Edge is useless on Gliscor...I don't know why people use it besides "Gyarados switch-ins" which is the saddest excuse to use something I've ever seen in my life. Use whatever the other option was.

As for this quote:

"Starmie does [counter Gyarados and Weezing], but if they have Blissey they keep switching and I'm walled."

Or you could put your thinking cap on and predict the obvious Blissey switch-in and let it have fun with CBtar ;) Always works.

EDIT: BTW you're really CM Missy weak.

I use Taunt on my Gliscor, SE was there just if it turned out to be useful.

Missey is Blissey right? Isn't Luke and Tar able to counter it, or am I just getting Missey all wrong?

Dark Azelf June 7th, 2008 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3652331)
I use Taunt on my Gliscor, SE was there just if it turned out to be useful.

Missey is Blissey right? Isn't Luke and Tar able to counter it, or am I just getting Missey all wrong?

Missy = mismagius @Calm Mind/HP Fighting/Shadow ball/Sub

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3652331)
I use Taunt on my Gliscor, SE was there just if it turned out to be useful.

Missey is Blissey right? Isn't Luke and Tar able to counter it, or am I just getting Missey all wrong?

Missy is Mismagius. >=[ Luke and Tar are slower than Mismagius and are whacked by HP Fighting and after a Calm Mind... =/ Luke isn't a counter to Blissey either. It hates Thunder Wave and gets smashed by Flamethrower upon switching in and might suffer a Burn, making it difficult to OHKO Blissey.
EDIT: D_A beat me to it. >=[

. June 7th, 2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf (Post 3652347)
Missy = mismagius @Calm Mind/HP Fighting/Shadow ball/Sub

Things like this make me miss Azelf :( It outspeeds Missy, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing Salamence 1.1 (Post 3652354)
Missy is Mismagius. >=[ Luke and Tar are slower than Mismagius and are whacked by HP Fighting and after a Calm Mind... =/ Luke isn't a counter to Blissey either. It hates Thunder Wave and gets smashed by Flamethrower upon switching in and might suffer a Burn, making it difficult to OHKO Blissey.
EDIT: D_A beat me to it. >=[

I never switch Luke into a healthy Blissey :D I switch it in when it's an obvious Softboiled or Seismic Toss.


I haven't gotten to use Gardy yet, no good battles pushed me far enough. Up for a Shoddy Battle Dance Salamence?

Lalapizzame June 7th, 2008 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3652367)
Things like this make me miss Azelf :( It outspeeds Missy, right?



I never switch Luke into a healthy Blissey :D I switch it in when it's an obvious Softboiled or Seismic Toss.


I haven't gotten to use Gardy yet, no good battles pushed me far enough. Up for a Shoddy Battle Dance Salamence?

Azelf can go kill itself eating a Shadow Ball with STAB and it's super effective.
EDIT:Yeah, I'm up for a match.

. June 7th, 2008 1:11 PM

Azelf loses to Missy? You learn something everyday. Anyway, I've just challenged you.

Anti June 7th, 2008 4:26 PM

CM Mismagius/Missy is really tough to counter. No version of Blissey really...beats it. Tyranitar has to worry about WoW and HP Fighting so meh. Spirirtomb and Snorlax are fairly reliable counters. It's actually a pretty tough set to get around.

And despite Azelf being faster, it can't come in and win really. Azelf can't really OHKO Mismagius and that 105 base special defense, especially when it CMs. Mismagius really hammers it with Shadow Ball on the switch-in or after taking an unboosted Psychic from the elf.

. June 7th, 2008 5:46 PM

Well that just ruins my day. A BL can sweep my team. Fantastic.

Gardevoir is nice and all, but it's basically a Blissey with more kick (inflict status and hit pretty hard) ]

I need something that hits hard specially, perhaps Mixape? I lack an offensive fire type.

Aquilae June 7th, 2008 6:26 PM

If it doesn't Sub up first thing you can be sure it has WoW, and ToxicBliss would be able to beat it. Non-Sub Mismagius is very easy to counter given your team.

If you want a more surefire Mismagius counter you could always make Ttar Careful 252 HP/216 SpD for it, and it would get rid of Mismagius easily.
I think the pure power of max att CBtar is more preferable, so it would be easier if you would combine both Starmie and Gardevoir in one slot in the form of Vaporeon.

Surf/HP Electric/Wish, the last slot should be either Roar or Protect, depending on what you would need. I would go with Taunt on Gliscor, namely because it would serve as a PsuedoHazing method and would free a slot for Protect on Vaporeon.

Just go Taunt/EQ/Ice Fang/Roost on Gliscor, it has no business using Stone Edge anyways, Ice Fang hits harder and Gyarados isn't countered by Gliscor.

I don't think CBtar needs 198 Speed to be honest. Adamant 88 is probably the max you would need to run to beat Skarm.

For the last slot you should use Metagross with Bullet Punch, either CB or LO. This would provide support against Mismagius, namely the SubCM variant, and would down SubSeeders which would annoy you terribly otherwise.

I would advise you to go with CB Meteor Mash or LO Ice Punch to get rid of Gliscor opening the path for Luke/Ttar to sweep.

. June 7th, 2008 6:31 PM

That sounds awesome! I always wanted to try Gross but I never made a team that could support it.

So, my team should look like this?

CBTar/Vaporeon/Metagross/Gliscor/Blissey/Lucario

Right?

Anti June 7th, 2008 6:59 PM

Sweeping Missy without Sub is not a good sweeping Missy anyways ;)

As for the current lineup, it looks okay after skimming it over. Watch out for opposi8ng CBtars and stuff though.

Lalapizzame June 8th, 2008 6:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3653381)
Metagross @ Life Orb
"Wish I were uber..."
Adamant
Clear Body
252 HP, 244 Att, 14 Def

Those EVs were for surviving CB Dugtrio's Earthquake and after Life Orb damage you still die even though you have those EVs unless it does minimum damage and you can't escape. >=[ You're better off making those EVs pumping Speed or something like outspeeding Impish O Speed EV Gliscor so you won't get damaged by Earthquake before you smash Gliscor with Ice Punch. And, if I'm correct and did the right calculating Bullet Punch does this much to Dugtrio with Life Orb:
Damage: 154 - 182
Damage: 72.99% - 86.26% to Adamant Dugtrio with 0 Defense and HP EVs.
Correct me if I'm wrong in calculating but you won't OHKO while it OHKOs you most likely with CB Earthquake because of the 10% Life Orb recoil.

. June 8th, 2008 9:30 AM

Advice on new EV's? And should I use Ice Punch > Explosion?

Lalapizzame June 8th, 2008 4:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3655070)
Advice on new EV's? And should I use Ice Punch > Explosion?

Probably 204 EVs in Speed taking those from HP or just take all 12 useful Defense EVs, which should outrun Impish 0 Speed Gliscor. Explosion is to commit suicide right before you die (If you can survive the hit or if you're faster) and do a big hit to your opponent, most likely KOing them. Ice Punch can do huge damage to Gliscor without dying while Explosion does almost 2x the damage Ice Punch does at the price of killing yourself. I'd run Explosion, because 2 Meteor Mashes= 1 Ice Punch so you don't need Ice Punch just for Gliscor because it can Roost before you with that set of EVs if you don't change them, making an Ice Punch as strong as a Meteor Mash on the turn it uses Roost.

. June 8th, 2008 4:37 PM

So, 12 Spe EVs > Gliscor w/ 0 Spe? I don't wanna take away any Att EV's, Bullet Punch absolutely murders most stat uppers/switch ins/Weaviles who think "Lol outsped"

Lalapizzame June 8th, 2008 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3656255)
So, 12 Spe EVs > Gliscor w/ 0 Spe? I don't wanna take away any Att EV's, Bullet Punch absolutely murders most stat uppers/switch ins/Weaviles who think "Lol outsped"

204 EVs in Speed should outspeed that kind of Gliscor. You know, we have HP EVs in the world, have you heard of it? :D Take away from that to not touch Attack and weaken Metagross.

. June 8th, 2008 4:54 PM

How fragile would Gross be then?

Lalapizzame June 8th, 2008 5:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3656304)
How fragile would Gross be then?

If 204 EVs are taken from those EVs... should be
316 HP and 296 Defense. I wouldn't call that fragile. :D

. June 14th, 2008 7:59 AM

I'm really starting to consider Heatran over Metagross. It covers my fire support, and it can use Lucario to it's advantage on taking those fire attacks and Will O Wisps.

If I choose Heatran, which set would be most effective on this team?

Lalapizzame June 14th, 2008 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3672308)
I'm really starting to consider Heatran over Metagross. It covers my fire support, and it can use Lucario to it's advantage on taking those fire attacks and Will O Wisps.

If I choose Heatran, which set would be most effective on this team?

Your team lacks any kind of Special attacking so I would choose Specs:

[email protected] Specs
Modest
40 HP/252 Special Attack/216 Speed
Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Overheat
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Explosion

No need for HP Ice since now you OHKO the Dragons with Dragon Pulse. =D I prefer Flamethrower over the other 2 moves since it has more PP and accuracy than the other two and doesn't really care about the loss of power because Choice Specs gives it plenty of power. =D Earth Power for coverage and strength and also gives you something to hit other Specs Heatran with. =D Explosion to hurt Blissey or something if you're about to die.

. June 14th, 2008 11:28 AM

So, do you think Metagross is the weakest link on my team? And thanks for the set. I'll use it ;D

Lalapizzame June 14th, 2008 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3672754)
So, do you think Metagross is the weakest link on my team? And thanks for the set. I'll use it ;D

It seems like it was the weakest Physical sweeper when you already have 2 other ones, you could use the space for a Special Sweeper by kicking Metagross out. =/ The 5 other pokemon were fine though. =D

. June 21st, 2008 4:57 PM

Well, I replaced Vaporeon with Tentacruel so I get Toxic Spikes support as well as much needed Rapid Spin support. It also counters Mixape nicely.

Now for another problem; DDTar or CBTar?

Ársa June 21st, 2008 5:07 PM

Your team isn't liking Mixape. :( Stealth Rock damage and Grass Knot/Thunderpunch is a problem. Unfortunately, removing something else to more bolster the problem will open up weaknesses in other places. Vappy is a good choice, just make sure that the opponent doesn't have a Mixape before you allow it to be damaged too severly. (As I'm sure you already know. :P)

~T_S

. June 21st, 2008 5:10 PM

I switched Vappy for Tentacruel since it counters Mixape better and can Spin away spikes and set up some of it's own.

Ársa June 21st, 2008 5:15 PM

I would also like to see Ice Beam over Crunch on your T-Tar. Hippowdon leads hate it, as do Specsmence. Gliscor is also nullified to an extent, assuming you can survive an Earthquake. (Not sure on that, but I think you would rather it switches in)

Pursuit should be more than enough, it still OHKO's Gengar and Azelf etc, even if they don't switch.

~T_S

. June 21st, 2008 5:29 PM

I don't really fear Hippowdon or Specsmence. Specsmence will outspeed me anyway, and Stone Edge does a beefy amount of damage even with Intimidation in account.

And Crunch does a nice amount of damage to things like Bronzong (2HKO, OHKO if a critical hit) I prefer it over Ice Beam.

Anti June 21st, 2008 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3693095)
I would also like to see Ice Beam over Crunch on your T-Tar. Hippowdon leads hate it, as do Specsmence. Gliscor is also nullified to an extent, assuming you can survive an Earthquake. (Not sure on that, but I think you would rather it switches in)

Pursuit should be more than enough, it still OHKO's Gengar and Azelf etc, even if they don't switch.

~T_S

CBtar without Crunch is nothing short of a joke (come on, Cresselia walls you - now that's sad for something with 134 base attack holding a Choice Band with a Dark STAB).

Honestly I don't find Pursuit useful. Nobody even switches their pokemon out since Pursuit is so common, so you can easily Crunch that Celebi or Cresselia to bits. Hippowdon is going to wall you anyways, and being stuck on Ice Beam coming off a weak special attack stat (for a sweeper's standards) and giving a lot of pretty terrifying stuff a free switch-in (think SDluke and even Heracross).

I must also ask what MixApe EVER uses Thunderpunch (or any Infernape for that matter)?

I must ALSO ask you KT...since when is CBtar a surprise? It has mostly the same counters as the DDer anyways so stuff expecting DDtar probably isn't going to care a whole lot about CBtar being your set, if they are surprised at all.

This team also suffers from weakness to Luvdisc leads, who Rain Dance up on Tyranitar and poison it with Toxic!

EDIT: Wait, people actually switch SpecsMence into Tyranitar? Seriously, even Bulky Salamence gets demolished by CB Stone Edge >_<

. June 21st, 2008 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anti Pop Culture Warrior (Post 3693146)
CBtar without Crunch is nothing short of a joke (come on, Cresselia walls you - now that's sad for something with 134 base attack holding a Choice Band with a Dark STAB).

Honestly I don't find Pursuit useful. Nobody even switches their pokemon out since Pursuit is so common, so you can easily Crunch that Celebi or Cresselia to bits. Hippowdon is going to wall you anyways, and being stuck on Ice Beam coming off a weak special attack stat (for a sweeper's standards) and giving a lot of pretty terrifying stuff a free switch-in (think SDluke and even Heracross).

I must also ask what MixApe EVER uses Thunderpunch (or any Infernape for that matter)?

I must ALSO ask you KT...since when is CBtar a surprise? It has mostly the same counters as the DDer anyways so stuff expecting DDtar probably isn't going to care a whole lot about CBtar being your set, if they are surprised at all.

This team also suffers from weakness to Luvdisc leads, who Rain Dance up on Tyranitar and poison it with Toxic!

EDIT: Wait, people actually switch SpecsMence into Tyranitar?

Not many expect CBTar. They expect DDer, and with DDer, there is usually Taunt involved. But I can see your point.

I dislike Pursuit. I hardly ever use it. Is there a better choice that goes over Pursuit? Aerial Ace? Focus Punch? Need opinions plesh.

Aquilae June 21st, 2008 6:26 PM

AERIAL ACE 2HKOS MACHAMP!

Just use Pursuit, it allows you to beat up Azelfs and other stuff as well. Pursuit can change the whole momentum of the match being able to KO weak pokemon. With Blissey now losing Wish and dropping Protect on a whole CBtar can easily smack it with Pursuit doing ~40% if it stays in and ~80% if it switches out.

EDIT: Who the heck switches Specsmence into Tyranitar?

Anti June 22nd, 2008 9:57 AM

Why would they expect DDtar when it can't even sweep in the early game? That makes no sense.

You have a Dugtrio weakness of the century there. A whopping 5 pokemon are taken out by it, four more realistically (seeing as an unboosted Extremespeed from Lucario would shave about half its health off and Blissey's Ice Beam would do the rest, so one of them would survive).

Tentacruel, Tyranitar, and Heatran are all hopeless against it, easily being OHKOed. Blissey loses too, but can weaken it enough that Lucario can take it out with Extremespeed. Still, losing 4 pokemon obviously is going to destroy you. I'd try Scarf Tran to help with that, and maybe go back to Vaporeon >>> Tentacruel.

. July 2nd, 2008 2:01 AM

Team is updated. Made a lot of changes and I hope they're for the best.

Aquilae July 3rd, 2008 12:12 AM

Taunt is near useless on DDtar as you are sacrificing a great STAB move, Stone Edge, just to deal with these pokemon. Skarm cannot threaten you and would be forced to Whirlwind giving you an opportunity to damage Skarm further.

I don't like the Garchomp weakness. Garchomp completely obliterates your team. Even with Ice Fang on Gliscor (which you currently do not have), and Ice Beam on Swampert those two would fail to OHKO it. Heatran can revenge-kill it but mostly this threat isn't covered well.

EDIT: In my battle with you I noticed that you have a really gaping Mamoswine weakness. Simply put, EQ hits and 1-2HKOs everything in your team - Blissey provides free switchins all the time and sending in Heatran on Mamo makes it quite obvious that it is Scarfed (or that it has Shuca Berry), which would discourage Mamo from staying in.

. July 3rd, 2008 12:35 AM

Is there anything that can counter both Mamo and Chomp that makes a pretty good lead? Or will one of my guys have to go?

And Taunt kind of protects Tar from status moves and phazing.

Anti July 3rd, 2008 12:36 AM

It's not a good lead, but Cresselia (and also Mesprit) counter Garchomp and Mamoswine. I wouldn't really stress yourself out over getting a good lead...it isn't that big of a deal.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Aquilae is aware of Taunt's function you know ;/ DDtar is for late-game stuff anyways...you never even need to Taunt if you play it right.

. July 3rd, 2008 12:38 AM

Is Mesprit an inferior Cress? Because from my battles, Cress is a beast.

What about Suicune? It has the coverage (Ice and water, pretty beastly)

Aquilae July 3rd, 2008 12:39 AM

Why would you want to protect yourself against status anyway? The statusers that would otherwise beat DDtar either get outsped or 2HKOed even after WoW.

And in that similar vein, why would you bother about PHazing at all? Swampert would be much more inclined to EQ and Skarm would Whirlwind regardless, taking significant damage.

. July 3rd, 2008 12:40 AM

Whirlwind can really mess stuff up with Tar. Is Stone Edge really more useful?

Anti July 3rd, 2008 12:40 AM

Suicune has Mamoswine problems in general. Earthquake really hammers it and Mamo is faster than most Suicune. Suicune is also hit by Garchomp's more powerful STAB. Bulky floating psychic go

In case you miss my edit, Taunt is an epic waste on DDtar. Just focus on hitting things hard instead of getting overprotective of a DDer.

EDIT: PHazers will probably be gone in the late game anyways and things are just going to attack DDtar instead of trying to mess around with arguably the most powerful force in OUs.

. July 3rd, 2008 12:45 AM

Everyday people kill Smogon's movesets. Gotta fix these things

So, if I go Cress > Swampert, what could make a decent lead?

Anti July 3rd, 2008 12:51 AM

Doesn't matter much. Just lead with Gliscor since it screws up Bronzong leads...I don't know. It's not that important.

. July 17th, 2008 3:52 AM

Made a few changes, and I hope they work. Suicune is staying, no questions asked people.

Dark Azelf July 17th, 2008 5:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tyranitar (Post 3765811)
Made a few changes, and I hope they work. Suicune is staying, no questions asked people.

On Blissey, if your using a sp.att, go 252 def / 176 sp.def / 80 sp.att. So you know, you can actually do something.

. July 26th, 2008 4:16 PM

Added a lot of Special Sweepers, but I feel most comfortable with Choice Specs Vaporeon since it can counter Mixape and Gyarados.


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