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Most intimidating physical sweeper?
Who do you think is the most intimidating physical sweeper now in D/P (includes Pokes from other generations)
I ask this because the physical/special side leaves a lot of hard-hitters in the dust, and a lot of unused sweepers at their highest point. Me? I say Garchomp (and I know a lot of you are going to say so as well) It has Sand Veil, meaning it's a risk to hit it with it's fragile counters. It also gets SD Outrage which can annoy the heck out of anyone. |
You're right: Garchomp... That Shark's simply too conventionally strong. Setting up a Swords Dance, getting a Evasion Boost with Sand Veil and Holding a Yache Berry to increase its surviveability... I surrender whenever I see a Garchomp like that... |
Also considering it has no true "counter" since Fire/Dragon/Ground hit everything in the game for neutral. The best I found was Deoxys-e while being bulky.
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Garchomp is perfect for the job
btw Tyranitar + Garchomp + abilities= good combo at least thats what i think |
My Mamoswine beats Garchomps :K
Ch-Choice Scarf, anyone? |
Mamoswine is my personal D/P favorite =3 Ice Shard hammers Garchomp with no Yache Berry.
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But yeah, Garchomp gets my vote too. |
Gyarados! god the thing is a beast once it gets a couple DD's in. Yeah I suppose Garchomp is, however I don't fear it much. So I'll go with Gyarados ;)
Did I forget Lucario, that's another threatening sweeper, heck Dos I'll stick with. |
Garchomp...
They annoy with SD then earthquake. |
Garchomp is so annoying, it's a bit too much for OU if you ask me. It owns most things, and also: It's ugly. Salamence is ugly aswell, Dragonite and Tyranitar are much, MUCH better done IMO.
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Gyarados. STAB 80 base power Waterfall, along with Earthquake and Ice Fang/Stone Edge makes him one of the most threatening forces in the game. He's one of the top three leading pokes used in battle too. Once he gets two or three DDs in, he's nearly unstoppable.
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Most intimidating physical sweeper would probably be a Choice Banded Deoxys-A
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If you don't have a priority move, he's scary.
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i say dd gyrados one dance and it can sweep
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Bulky Dos is what I fear. They're hard to kill and a pain to try walling.
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honestly, garchomp. very little can conter it. very unpredictable as well.
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Are you kidding? ONE ICE BEAM FROM MILOTIC, the stupid Garchomp is GONE.
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garchomps are also faster than milotics and besides, a good player will not leave in his or her garchomp with a full hp milotic :) |
Despite how poor its speed is, I find Super Luck Absol to be a pain to take out, Crit Hax galore
As far as OU pokemon, I say Heracross, yes every team carries a counter, but that's just proof of concept |
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In a sandstorm I would say Garchomp is the most intimidating non sandstorm my vote goes to Gyarados.
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Garchomp, most indefinitely. Yache Berry + Sand Veil is a headache. Counters really can't take a hit, from Outrage. They can only hope to outspeed Garchomp and hit it with a supereffective move. Sand Veil ruins a lot of hope for connecting a hit, and that turn you take may be your only chance before you faint.
Heracross, another threatening sweeper. I hate it. :x Quote:
Icebeam from Neutral 0 Sp.Atk EV'd Milotic has less than a 50% chance of OHKOing Neutral 0 Sp.Def Garchomp. Not to mention Garchomp frequently uses Yache Berry. Neutral 252 Attack Garchomp w/ Life Orb + 1 Swords Dance OHKOs Positive 252 Defense Milotic w/o Marvel Scale Boost. Milotic therefore = failure as a Garchomp counter. Quote:
Points overruled. |
I think Electivire deserves a mention. 123 base attack +Expert Belt+ ThunderPunch/IcePunch/Cross Chop/EQ hits 13 of the 17 types for a super effective hit. get that motor drive started and you've got something.....
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Not really. As of now, Electivire is actually on topic of going Borderline BL instead of Overused OU Tiers. It's not much of a threat anymore and has a TON of Pokemon that counter and wall it effectively. :x
It's coverage may seem attractive at first, but when you really test it out in competetive... it's terrible. Edit: This got moved to S&M? 0.0; |
Blegh, Evire is such an overrated, walled-by-everything-with-defense-EVs kind of Pokemon. Heracross does it's job 10x better.
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The idea behind Wobbuffet is picking your battles. The idea behind Wobbuffet is not to send him up against things that are going to kill him dead. Quote:
CBChomp eats Milotic. =X I nominate Gyarados and Salamence for most Intimidating physical sweepers. I do kinda watch out for LODos and SDLuke a lot, though. =S |
Machamp does the job with Guts, along with technician quick attack Scizor
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For me, it has got to be Heracross. Toxic Spikes are VERY common, and given Guts and Facade Gliscor and Weezing (oh and Bulky Mence lol) aren't the "counters" people think they are. Also, his STAB moves totally destroy everything except flyers and ghosts, and Stone Edge takes care of that. If you get Gut Facade CBcross to get its boost, nothing gets in its way. Nothing. It can also run a SD set very effectively and has a very impressive special defense score. Toxic also beats all of its counters except Weezing, which isn't common at all. As for Garchomp, it's so insanely common and abused the people are ALWAYS prepared for it (usually over prepared). It's a powerful sweeper, and despite having good base speed it's easy to revenge kill. I really like CBchomp though, who imo is one of the best CBers around. As much as I think Evire sucks, people aren't talking about moving it down a tier, especially when its usage easily puts it into OUs. Should it be used? Well no but it is. Just to point this out, but NOBODY uses Life Orb on Garchomp Azonic, and only Outrage will OHKO, effectively getting it revenge killed by Mamoswine or Scarf Chomp. As for CBchomp killing it, Garchomp's different sets have different counters, just like how SpecsMence and CBmence has totally different counters. This is true for all pokemon, not just Garchomp. I don't know, I've always felt Garchomp was hyped a little too much. Yeah it's really powerful, but its speed really does hinder its ability to sweep with SD and people overlook that. Yeah 102 base is really good, but a lot can revenge kill it and I don't like my set-up sweepers getting revenge killed with ease. I guess that's why they usually have substitute lol. Also agreeing with the Gyarados hype here. It's just a fantastic DDer and CBer. Sorry, I just generally disagree with a lot of pretty standard thoughts and listing all of my disagreements would take too long so I'll cut this post off now :P EDIT: Not to deny Garchomp's overwhelming power but I never really saw it as something that could sweep a team. It usually gets a kill and sometimes more but eh its speed really hurts it, despite it being pretty good. |
I have to agree with Anti Pop here to say that Garchomp is a bit hyped up too much. I also personally agree that it is crazy to even consider moving Garchomp to Ubers. Of course it is powerful depending on the set but really it is nothing to be fearing of. I have face a few Garchomps that are powerful but never have they tore my team up. Then goes it Sand Veil ability, useful but anybody that is hoping for luck in their battle may need to wake up since luck is just as random as Metronome. Clearly it is powerful and is an intimidating sweeper but not one to do a witch hunt on.
I would have to say Tyrantar since those can be a bit random. Their movesets are random enough and then his ability stays in the battle for a long time to lick off HP turn by turn. Heracross is another one I go here too. Makes me think twice about throwing out a ThunderWave or something incase one comes out. |
Definitely going to have to say [email protected] Scarf,
I have one of these monsters on my team and it cleans up nicely, I don't even bother with a Swords Dance, because a STABed Earthquake/Outrage takes pretty much anything out, then I go ohlol as weavile/mamoswine switch in and switch out into mixape |
Gyarados, Salamence, Masquerain, Granbull, and Mightyena. It's their ability. :|
I'd imagine the answer to this question would vary from person to person based on their team- someone with Weavile and Cresselia on their team likely wouldn't be fazed by Garchomp, but find Gyarados or Heracross extremely threatening. Likewise, Gyarados really pisses me off. |
Garchomp counter: Reflect Cresselia...there you go. If it Swords Dances, set up a Reflect. They've probably Swords Danced again at this point, so Ice Beam makes quick work in 2 shots, and this especially works if they're locked into Outrage. For CBChomp...Cressy stands again to force it out if it uses Quake or Fire move, but Outrage can almost 2HKO unless you beef it up severely. Prediction is your best friend.
As for terms of sweepers, Garchomp would top it for me, but I've managed to drop Garchomp each time I've faced it with revenges and such. I've had more trouble with the likes of Breloom, Salamence, or heck, even Unsaring. My current team has little protection against it. When it comes down to it...most likely Gyarados and Heracross. |
Garchomp isn't THAT scary. I haven't been battling in a long time but garchomp never struck much fear in me. Gyarados can be annoying though.. it is a headache to counter, but I happen to think that the advance gen gyarados was much better at sweeping. D/P gyarados is less powerful as a sweeper, but it does have waterfall which can flinch hax.
Personally I hated slaking. It could only attack every other turn, but since you're suppose to switch against counters anyway, the hitting every other turn ability isn't a bad trade-off condering slaking is pretty damn powerful. I wouldn't say slaking is the best, but one of the pokemon I hated playing against. props to those who mentioned machamp. machamp isn't as OU as some of the pokemon mentioned but is just as deadly. one of the best bulky sweepers. I always enjoyed abusing its 100% accurate ability. |
It has to depend on the team.
Most teams have a counter(sort of) to Garchomp, Gyara and Hera. Most have TTar counters, although I ran into a Scarf Rampardos late-game a while ago. Scary when my Forry is gone. I took it down, but it wasn't expected. |
Just to conclude my earlier post, the most fearsome sweeper is strongly dependent on what affects a person the most. I could say Electivire is the most fearsome sweeper if my team can't deal with it whatsoever, but yet I can counter nearly every other sweeper. I could even degrade to as I said earlier, Unsaring. You'd need strong statistical proof from a large group before you can prove anything on what is most threatening, and even then, it's situational.
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Well, currently I would say I'm most scared of Life Orb, Dragon Dance Gyarados. It annihiliates teams that aren't running a fast enough pokemon to counter after a DD, meaning usually Deoxys-E is the only option. With a single DD, any Celebi under 75% kicks the bucket, and Celebi is widely considered one of the better Gyarados counters in the game, so if it can beat arguably it's best counter, how can you stop that? It's becoming more popular, and for good reason.
Another would be Salamence, as it has so many different sets people utilize, it's almost impossible to know what your opponent is going to dish out. Someone leads with a Salamence, and you think 'OMG, SpecsMence! Quick, switch to Blissey!' Then it DD's in your face and good game. ~T_S |
My newest team is Vire weak by definition and the only one I ran into today didn't hurt anything of mine. Bad example (because it's Electivire) :P
Agreeing with c_dog about Machamp. I used it on the presidents and wow, it is one of the best CBers around. It's slow so offensive teams can be troublesome, but when it lands a hit...wow. Payback is also really awesome on it, beating down psychics like it does. Medicham needed that. EDIT: Agreeing with T_S, even though I'm surprised people haven't been using Thunder Wave Celebi which totally destroys LO Gyarados's ability to sweep. It also supports the team but eh maybe I'm just crazy...lol |
I was running T-Wave, but I found reflect helped my cause better vs other physical sweepers, and Celebi over 75% beats LO DD Gyara anywho. (drawing on my conversation with Aquilae as to my LO DD Gyara weakness)
~T_S |
Just a note: For people who say it "depends on the team" We all know that, but you must also know some sweepers can be much more troublesome for a wider variety of teams that others. For example, Gyarados is threatening to teams made of fragile sweepers, but it can also hurt wall dependent teams due to it's ability to DD up in their face.
Some sweepers, however, like Electivire, gets walled to hell by a lot of teams with things like Gliscor, Bronzong, Metagross, etc...But it can be *sort* threatening to teams of fragile sweepers god help you if it god a speed boost. |
LO Gyarados. It beats out Garchomp due to almost every team having to carry a counter / Steel type, and whatmore there are no electric priority moves. Your basic set, Dragon Dance / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Ice Fang has very few counters. BulkyGyara can't tank and can't sweep, so its a no go.
Gyarados' counters:
Garchomp is prepared for on every team, whereas Gyarados can't really be prepared for unless said team has a bulky counter. In the case of all-out offense teams they get brutally decimated by LO DD Gyarados and mostly the only thing stopping it is Deoxys-S. P.S. No Guard Machamp gets my vote due to irritating confusionhax that always seems to plague me |
Personally I've both had more success with and more problems with Swords Dance Infernape than any other physical sweeper, including Garchomp and Gyarados. That's because I counter MixApe with Psychetres, the Moltres set I advertise as being a counter for standard Milotic and Vaporeon (and I'm not joking, I can bring it in on an SE STAB Surf and actually beat them). SDApe rips me up because of the SE Thunderpunch and 4x SE Stone Edge.
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Obligatory Garchomp comment, CB Chomp is just a monster. It really is, there is no other way to put it.
LO DD Gyarados. This thing just tears teams apart (FINALLY people are using it over that mess "Bulky Dos") Both Tyranitar and Salamence are nasty aswell. Also im going to Dragonite, again another VERY powerful pokemon thats often underrated. And last and but by no meant least, the Fighting pokemon AKA Heracross, Machamp, Gallade and Lucario etc. I also think most of the intimidation on these actually comes from them being unpredictable. |
I'm so with you on that offensive Gyara vs bulky Gyara thing, I never put LO on my offensive Gyara but I did stuff like EV'd it to hit 398 after a dance, which tears up all other DDers that aim for 396 to beat Aero. Though I liked when everyone used bulky Gyara, my offensive Gyara would tear up teams because everyone thought their Aeros and Jolteons and such outspeed me after a dance.
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1 word: Salamence.
with max stats he has 405 attack |
And? Loads of pokes have good attacks.My most feared sweepres woudl be..hmmm....i'm scared of most but........Blissey.King-T's swept through mine a while back.
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You were swept by Choice band Blissey?!?!
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My vote has got to be gyrados, as much as i like the deadly garchomp, Gyrados is a force to be reckoned with. Plus Intimidate can really come in handy. |
It cant... Unless your fighting a team of Weedles
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2.) Crappy attack status (10 Atk and 75 SpA). 3.) It has 135 Base SpD making it a special wall (10 Def gets pwned). |
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CMBlissey is rockin', but that's not really something that should be in a thread that specifically says, "physical sweeper." =P
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Garchomp hands down. They are the most annoying of all pokemon ( apart from maybe Blissey xD, darn that defense ) and they are usually in most teams on Shoddy. Sand Veil is the most annoying ability except maybe Sand Stream ( I love TTar though )
Also Blissey shouldn't even have any attack stats anyway so your Blissey must just have sucked xD |
Hey, look it's S&M. 8D
Garchomp takes the cake for me, but I'd rather throw out other options for intimidating sweeper. (Let's just pretend it doesn't exist for a moment.) |D
Lucario - Swords Dance simply destroys unprepared teams. If's powerful, can finish a ballgame and really slaughters teams. Gyarados - Seriously? Do I really have to say anything else? Game breaking ability, taunt, versatility from WacanDD to LO-DD to Restalk to Bulky, Gyarados is top five mosst intimidating sweeper, no doubt. I would mention Salamence, but this is "physical sweeper" not mix or the other side of the spectrum. ): Choice Band does surprise people though, don't underestimate that. Salamence is perfectly viable for physical or special, so I'd rather mention it in an "overall" thread. XD |
OK,everyody's angry with me now,so i'll puit my most feared physical sweepres:
Gyarados:Isn't everyone afraid of it? Tyranitar:I can deal with quite easily,but god,is it good at hurting stuff. SDLuke:Never batteled one,sounds scary though |
charzard a.k.a bellyzar what are you gonna do
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BellyZard is honestly major fail unless you have a really poorly-designed team. Bulky waters still wall it and Stealth Rocks and priority moves destroy it. |
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I don't like how this discussion is progressing, it looks like intimidation is defined as how hard it is to counter something, which is more like power or move set, so under our this pretenses a mixed uber will win out...
Inimidation should be defined as how scarry something is when it hits the field, or how fast you think, "What the heck is my counter!" |
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Anyway, for me, it's Bite Gyara; my old team was weak to it. Not sure of the counters to it, though, so I can't fix that. I can't fix it anyway since it was somehow deleted. o.O |
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Honestly I don't get what you're saying though. It's basically "what physical sweeper do you fear the most." It's a pretty straightforward thing >_> Adding Salamence to the conversation. Without SR everywhere Salamence would probably see even more usage. Its physical sets can be walled, but many of those pokemon won't want to switch in fearing a Specs or Life Orb Draco Meteor. This can but Salamence an ever-important extra turn of set-up. Salamence is easily one of the most diverse pokemon in the game (something that Garchomp and Gyarados cannot boast) and its defensive typing isn't exactly shabby. |
Since I thought of this sooner, might as well bring it up. I'm a sort of noob to all this (I hate competitive battling when it actually comes to doing it, but I love reading/discussing it), so someone can probably refute this easily.
Counter to Garchomp when it first comes out. Since it's going to use a turn to use SD, switch to Wobbuffet. Then immediately switch out to Milotic. Shadow Tag carries over to trap Garchomp, then survive whatever hit comes, and Ice Beam him to death. Pretty sure no one packs a Garchomp with Baton Pass...that is if it can even learn it in the first place. Does that work? |
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It will switch out the proceeding turn you switch wobby out, as Shadow Tag is no longer in effect... Also what has this got to do with the current topic ? Nothing. Simple Q+A thread next time please. |
There's also the possibility of it being CBChomp, or SubSD-Yache Chomp, which kinda screws over that strategy. Of course, the thing that screws it over the most is the whole 'Wobbuffet being Uber' thing.
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There's no specified tier so I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say you implied OU tier. That being said, you simply can't argue against Garchomp whatsoever, sure Gyarados and Lucario are potent threats, but don't even come close to the sheer game changing power Garchomp has right now.
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Agreed, Garchomp not only has the second most powerful EQ in the OU metagame (tied with Mamo and below Rhyperior) he also has an incredible stat distribution, coupled with a movepool that any dragon would envy. Sand Veil is just a slap to the face to his "counters" due to the possibility of their moves missing becomes more likely in the Sandstorm. Yache Berry lowers his most common weakness, anything that is not steel will not like taking SD or CB Outrage, making a 2HKO very likely on things like Vaporeon, Starmie, Deoxys-e, etc...
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It has plenty to do with the topic, because it's about a counter to Garchomp.
Also, according to Serebii, if Wobbuffet switches out, Shadow Tag is still in effect. That's the whole reason I brought it up. |
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Anyway, since I didn't get to mention it before, the second most intimidating is probably Garchomp obviously. Sand Veil coupled with two powerful STAB moves and little counters = kthxbai. SD + LO = gg OU metagame. |
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F U airconditioning. You stole my "Intimidate" line. I wanted to use that so badly. F U 2, Dark Azelf, you suggested Bulky Gya on my team. *sabatoge!* *sabatoge!*.
Still, BulkyGya isn't meant to be on offense, he's meant for defense. I would have to give it up to Tyranitar as the most intimidating sweeper award, Garchomp comes in a close second. It shows up at the most inapropriate times, causes damage, starts up a damn sandstorm, ruins my merchandise that took me 5 HOURS to organize, then leaves. Garchomp is nearly the same. I have the resources to take it out, but it always comes at the worst possible moments. |
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Also, Shadow Tag is only in effect for the turn that Wobbuffet switches (I think). |
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What the hell? Dragonite has Base 80 speed, even at max it can't outspeed standard Chomp. Sorry POKEMON MASTAH, Garchomp molests your Dragonite with Outrage, Dragon Claw, etc...
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in Standard.. its either Tyranitar or Chomp
in UU.. its mostly Lee |
I sleep afraid of Swellow and Hitmonlee every night. Stupid things that force you carry a Steel-type and and a Fighting-resist-that-isn't0weak-to-SE.
As for OU, eh... Really, it's hard to decide because everything there hits meanly hard. So I'd have to go with Lucario, Garchomp and Salamence. |
It's interesting to me how everybody is saying Garchomp. Heck I love Garchomp. It's the heart and soul of my team but really, there's bigger fish. Attack mode Deoxys, Rayquaza, and SD Groudon are probably the most threatening sweepers in the game. Everybody seems to be talking about Standard enviornment and there yes Garchomp is hands down the best. Gyarados I'd say is second because although it's a monster with a few dragon dances in it, it has to well... get them in first. Although they both suffer from popular 400% weaknesses, Grachomp is just fine to take out a counter without any boosts and then get the Swords Dance in itself. Gyarados will have a very tough time against counters without a speed boost from DD. Especially water types packing lightning bolt such as Starmie.
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thats because the whole discussion is about the standard metagame, not the uber. ^.^
the bugs do it for me. Heracross and Scizor are personal faves. floatzel for the lulz at DDancers when i want to taunt and bulk up. ^.^ it can potentially take a few hits after a few rounds of BU and release with waterfall. i love it. |
Also, and I apologize in advance if someone did mention him, but Heracross deserves to be discussed a bit. Lookin at this thread makes me believe that he is unbelievably underated. Give me another pokemon that can boast 2 different stab 120 power attacks, and a scary 125 base attack stat (matching that of what looks liek the runner up Gyarados). Choice Scarf Heracross is a scary sight and will tear teams apart that aren't ready to deal with it. Just being able to tear apart Blissey and Cresselia arguably better than any pokemon in the is enough reason to fear it. And let's not forget Guts.
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Guts and those STAB moves are what make Hera Scary. The Attack stat and coverage aren't that good.
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Hmm...I propose a change of pace here. Everyone is saying the similar things, and they're all OU.
How about some UU threats? We know there are many of these, and they can wreak some havoc. For me, I'd have to say CB Hitmonlee. That thing just rips things up when used correctly, not to mention Mixed Nidoking, although I literally have yet to face one...which is strange. |
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I love UU sweepers. from the first gen. Nidoking is a beast and able to take a hit well. covers his weaknesses well too. even able to go special sweeper if thats your alley and cleans well. but trying to breed for a moveset is a right pain in the *&^
i like haxxxing with absol and super luck. ^.^ might as well add in digging flygon he-he |
In UU, SD Toxicroak is a monster. I personally use Sub + SD + Sucker Punch + Cross Chop. The thing can rip things to shreds with little to no problem whatsoever.
Hitmontlee gets an honorable mention; 2HKOing Steelix with CB Close Combat. |
Garchomp is on equal ground with Attack Deoxys, Rayquaza and Groudon. In Attack Deoxys case, it cannot be comparable to Garchomp simply because it has paper-thin defenses whilst Garchomp is comparatively more bulkier, I would feel that Garchomp is better simply because it has more opportunities to switch in.
As for Groudon, Garchomp counters roughly the same stuff as it does and boasts higher speed but comparatively less attack, and a boosted Outrage. As in Rayquaza's case Garchomp outspeeds it initially, while Rayquaza does get Extremespeed on a whole Garchomp does not need a priority move due to its unique speed base. Garchomp functions well in Ubers simply because of its base 102 Speed which would allow it to outspeed a lot of threats in which Ubers are specifically designed to outspeed - this gives it a greater edge, and its speed base allows it to outspeed threats like Palkia and Rayquaza. Heracross is really slow. It has a great counter in Gliscor as well as Megahorn and Close Combat being an easy switchin for the ubiquitous Gengar and Salamence. EDIT : KT, Weezing =/ Aerodactyl is a monster in UU having a great speed and the attacking stats and coverage to pull off a sweep - if its counters are below 70% they basically get demolished. |
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Oh yeah...Aero...Poor UU =/ |
for UU i like primeape. the CB elemental punch primeape with max speed just tears everything up with such great coverage.
garchomp isn't that good though i have to say. he's good but not hands down good like it seems on this site. at least he was never intimidating to me, not as much as gyarados, who i'm also quite used to countering with relative ease. i think i've been caught offguard by gallade(CB, CS, t-wave) more often than by either garchomp or gyarados. |
Was kinda rushed by a riend to battle him in a three on three.
His Swellow ended up killing me. It had a Flame Orb, used Protect & Roost in between Facade and Aerial Ace. I used I used Hippowdon @ Sassy w/ Stockpile, Slack Off, Stone Edge, Ice Fang (No item) Cacturne @ Adamant w/ Leech Seed, Substitute, Faint Attack, HP Rock (No item...) Girafarig @ Jolly w/ Magic Coat, Baton Pass, Charge Beam, Double Kick (Life Orb) He also KO'd my Hippowdon with his Bronzong's Rain Dance and 3 Grass Knot's. |
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On your Heracross Counters list though, Yes Gengar, Weezing and Salamence will switch in freely on Megahorn or Close Combat, but to very little effect. Salamence will hate to be hit by Stone Edge, Gengar won't like to be hit by Pursuit Stone Edge or Night Slash/Shadow Claw. And Weezing... Well you switch it in and then what? I don't know who would purposely send a Heracross a Will-O-Wisp, sludge bomb won't hit heracross too hard because it has decent sp. def, and Heracross can 2ko weezing with Stone Edge. |
Maybe you should check again, because Aerodactyl is UU. Don't make a statement without knowing your facts.
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Aerodactyl is UU.
Weezing packs Fire Blast. Salamence outspeeds. Gengar outspeeds. If you're going by that "this counter can be beaten by XXX move" mindset there would be no counters for many of the top OU threats, Lucario, Gengar, Infernape and such. |
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