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-   -   Most intimidating physical sweeper? (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148335)

GeneralGuy August 3rd, 2008 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~*Champion Shirona*~ (Post 3814999)
Speaking of counter. I also hate Wobbufett. They have Destiny Bond and lot of H.P.

:16:

Wobbufett is completely useless if Taunt is used. Any he's not that difficult to take down.
  • Megahorn from an Adamant CB Heracross.
  • Crunch from an Adamant CB Tyranitar.
  • Hyper Beam from a Modest Specs Porygon-Z with Adaptability.

Azonic August 3rd, 2008 11:27 AM

Garchomp, most indefinitely. Yache Berry + Sand Veil is a headache. Counters really can't take a hit, from Outrage. They can only hope to outspeed Garchomp and hit it with a supereffective move. Sand Veil ruins a lot of hope for connecting a hit, and that turn you take may be your only chance before you faint.

Heracross, another threatening sweeper. I hate it. :x
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~*Champion Shirona*~ (Post 3814703)
Are you kidding? ONE ICE BEAM FROM MILOTIC, the stupid Garchomp is GONE.

:16:

Here are calculations, assuming both Pokemon have flawless IVs on all stats.

Icebeam from Neutral 0 Sp.Atk EV'd Milotic has less than a 50% chance of OHKOing Neutral 0 Sp.Def Garchomp. Not to mention Garchomp frequently uses Yache Berry.

Neutral 252 Attack Garchomp w/ Life Orb + 1 Swords Dance OHKOs Positive 252 Defense Milotic w/o Marvel Scale Boost.

Milotic therefore = failure as a Garchomp counter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~*Champion Shirona*~ (Post 3814999)
Speaking of counter. I also hate Wobbufett. They have Destiny Bond and lot of H.P.

:16:

Yeah, because Destiny Bond from a 33 Speed Pokemon sure is threatening. =/ Destiny Bond only works if the user is faster than the opponent. Wobbuffet is also not a physical sweeper.

Points overruled.

Wuchuhurd August 3rd, 2008 3:30 PM

I think Electivire deserves a mention. 123 base attack +Expert Belt+ ThunderPunch/IcePunch/Cross Chop/EQ hits 13 of the 17 types for a super effective hit. get that motor drive started and you've got something.....

Azonic August 3rd, 2008 3:46 PM

Not really. As of now, Electivire is actually on topic of going Borderline BL instead of Overused OU Tiers. It's not much of a threat anymore and has a TON of Pokemon that counter and wall it effectively. :x

It's coverage may seem attractive at first, but when you really test it out in competetive... it's terrible.

Edit: This got moved to S&M? 0.0;

. August 3rd, 2008 5:13 PM

Blegh, Evire is such an overrated, walled-by-everything-with-defense-EVs kind of Pokemon. Heracross does it's job 10x better.

Magmortified August 3rd, 2008 6:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralGuy (Post 3822101)
Wobbufett is completely useless if Taunt is used. Any he's not that difficult to take down.
  • Megahorn from an Adamant CB Heracross.
  • Crunch from an Adamant CB Tyranitar.
  • Hyper Beam from a Modest Specs Porygon-Z with Adaptability.

Okay, let's assuming that you are playing well with Wobbuffet. Why the heck would you send him on on something that uses freaking Taunt? Why would you keep him in on Heracross (and, you'd need for something to be dead from Counter/Mirror Coat or something to even be able to bring Hera in on Wobbuffet), Tyranitar, or any of the things you've said?

The idea behind Wobbuffet is picking your battles. The idea behind Wobbuffet is not to send him up against things that are going to kill him dead.

Quote:

Icebeam from Neutral 0 Sp.Atk EV'd Milotic has less than a 50% chance of OHKOing Neutral 0 Sp.Def Garchomp. Not to mention Garchomp frequently uses Yache Berry.

Neutral 252 Attack Garchomp w/ Life Orb + 1 Swords Dance OHKOs Positive 252 Defense Milotic w/o Marvel Scale Boost.

Milotic therefore = failure as a Garchomp counter.
Smogon usage statistics say that Yache Berry's definitely the most common (and, therefore, isn't usually in danger of an OHKO from Chomp's SD Outrage). If anything, Milotic can serve to waste Chomp's Yache Berry, then switch to a Steel type or something and Recover off later... or something. I agree that Milo's no full counter to Chomp, though.

CBChomp eats Milotic. =X

I nominate Gyarados and Salamence for most Intimidating physical sweepers.

I do kinda watch out for LODos and SDLuke a lot, though. =S

revelp8 August 3rd, 2008 6:30 PM

Machamp does the job with Guts, along with technician quick attack Scizor

Anti August 3rd, 2008 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gofre (Post 3813104)
Only an idiot would keep garchomp in against mamoswine, so it isnt a valid argument.

Really? Mamoswine can't be mentioned as a great Garchomp revenge killer because "only an idiot would keep Garchomp in"? Alright guys, I guess bringing up Azumarill as a great revenge killer for Rock Polish Rhyperior isn't valid because "Rhyperior wouldn't stay in." Your logic is quite flawed there =/ Mamoswine most certainly deserves a mention. If it forces Garchomp to switch, guess what? It has dfone its job anyways (forcing the "best" OU pokemon out).

For me, it has got to be Heracross. Toxic Spikes are VERY common, and given Guts and Facade Gliscor and Weezing (oh and Bulky Mence lol) aren't the "counters" people think they are. Also, his STAB moves totally destroy everything except flyers and ghosts, and Stone Edge takes care of that. If you get Gut Facade CBcross to get its boost, nothing gets in its way. Nothing.

It can also run a SD set very effectively and has a very impressive special defense score. Toxic also beats all of its counters except Weezing, which isn't common at all.

As for Garchomp, it's so insanely common and abused the people are ALWAYS prepared for it (usually over prepared). It's a powerful sweeper, and despite having good base speed it's easy to revenge kill. I really like CBchomp though, who imo is one of the best CBers around.

As much as I think Evire sucks, people aren't talking about moving it down a tier, especially when its usage easily puts it into OUs. Should it be used? Well no but it is.

Just to point this out, but NOBODY uses Life Orb on Garchomp Azonic, and only Outrage will OHKO, effectively getting it revenge killed by Mamoswine or Scarf Chomp.

As for CBchomp killing it, Garchomp's different sets have different counters, just like how SpecsMence and CBmence has totally different counters. This is true for all pokemon, not just Garchomp. I don't know, I've always felt Garchomp was hyped a little too much. Yeah it's really powerful, but its speed really does hinder its ability to sweep with SD and people overlook that. Yeah 102 base is really good, but a lot can revenge kill it and I don't like my set-up sweepers getting revenge killed with ease. I guess that's why they usually have substitute lol.

Also agreeing with the Gyarados hype here. It's just a fantastic DDer and CBer.

Sorry, I just generally disagree with a lot of pretty standard thoughts and listing all of my disagreements would take too long so I'll cut this post off now :P

EDIT: Not to deny Garchomp's overwhelming power but I never really saw it as something that could sweep a team. It usually gets a kill and sometimes more but eh its speed really hurts it, despite it being pretty good.

charizard_maa August 3rd, 2008 6:55 PM

I have to agree with Anti Pop here to say that Garchomp is a bit hyped up too much. I also personally agree that it is crazy to even consider moving Garchomp to Ubers. Of course it is powerful depending on the set but really it is nothing to be fearing of. I have face a few Garchomps that are powerful but never have they tore my team up. Then goes it Sand Veil ability, useful but anybody that is hoping for luck in their battle may need to wake up since luck is just as random as Metronome. Clearly it is powerful and is an intimidating sweeper but not one to do a witch hunt on.

I would have to say Tyrantar since those can be a bit random. Their movesets are random enough and then his ability stays in the battle for a long time to lick off HP turn by turn.

Heracross is another one I go here too. Makes me think twice about throwing out a ThunderWave or something incase one comes out.

Beginnings August 3rd, 2008 7:20 PM

Definitely going to have to say [email protected] Scarf,
I have one of these monsters on my team and it cleans up nicely,
I don't even bother with a Swords Dance, because a STABed Earthquake/Outrage takes pretty much anything out, then I go ohlol as weavile/mamoswine switch in and switch out into mixape

airconditioning August 3rd, 2008 7:28 PM

Gyarados, Salamence, Masquerain, Granbull, and Mightyena. It's their ability. :|

I'd imagine the answer to this question would vary from person to person based on their team- someone with Weavile and Cresselia on their team likely wouldn't be fazed by Garchomp, but find Gyarados or Heracross extremely threatening.

Likewise, Gyarados really pisses me off.

ABYAY August 3rd, 2008 7:32 PM

Garchomp counter: Reflect Cresselia...there you go. If it Swords Dances, set up a Reflect. They've probably Swords Danced again at this point, so Ice Beam makes quick work in 2 shots, and this especially works if they're locked into Outrage. For CBChomp...Cressy stands again to force it out if it uses Quake or Fire move, but Outrage can almost 2HKO unless you beef it up severely. Prediction is your best friend.

As for terms of sweepers, Garchomp would top it for me, but I've managed to drop Garchomp each time I've faced it with revenges and such. I've had more trouble with the likes of Breloom, Salamence, or heck, even Unsaring. My current team has little protection against it.

When it comes down to it...most likely Gyarados and Heracross.

c_dog August 3rd, 2008 8:55 PM

Garchomp isn't THAT scary. I haven't been battling in a long time but garchomp never struck much fear in me. Gyarados can be annoying though.. it is a headache to counter, but I happen to think that the advance gen gyarados was much better at sweeping. D/P gyarados is less powerful as a sweeper, but it does have waterfall which can flinch hax.

Personally I hated slaking. It could only attack every other turn, but since you're suppose to switch against counters anyway, the hitting every other turn ability isn't a bad trade-off condering slaking is pretty damn powerful. I wouldn't say slaking is the best, but one of the pokemon I hated playing against.

props to those who mentioned machamp. machamp isn't as OU as some of the pokemon mentioned but is just as deadly. one of the best bulky sweepers. I always enjoyed abusing its 100% accurate ability.

Archer August 3rd, 2008 9:36 PM

It has to depend on the team.
Most teams have a counter(sort of) to Garchomp, Gyara and Hera. Most have TTar counters, although I ran into a Scarf Rampardos late-game a while ago. Scary when my Forry is gone. I took it down, but it wasn't expected.

ABYAY August 3rd, 2008 10:02 PM

Just to conclude my earlier post, the most fearsome sweeper is strongly dependent on what affects a person the most. I could say Electivire is the most fearsome sweeper if my team can't deal with it whatsoever, but yet I can counter nearly every other sweeper. I could even degrade to as I said earlier, Unsaring. You'd need strong statistical proof from a large group before you can prove anything on what is most threatening, and even then, it's situational.

Ársa August 3rd, 2008 11:23 PM

Well, currently I would say I'm most scared of Life Orb, Dragon Dance Gyarados. It annihiliates teams that aren't running a fast enough pokemon to counter after a DD, meaning usually Deoxys-E is the only option. With a single DD, any Celebi under 75% kicks the bucket, and Celebi is widely considered one of the better Gyarados counters in the game, so if it can beat arguably it's best counter, how can you stop that? It's becoming more popular, and for good reason.

Another would be Salamence, as it has so many different sets people utilize, it's almost impossible to know what your opponent is going to dish out. Someone leads with a Salamence, and you think 'OMG, SpecsMence! Quick, switch to Blissey!' Then it DD's in your face and good game.

~T_S

Anti August 3rd, 2008 11:25 PM

My newest team is Vire weak by definition and the only one I ran into today didn't hurt anything of mine. Bad example (because it's Electivire) :P

Agreeing with c_dog about Machamp. I used it on the presidents and wow, it is one of the best CBers around. It's slow so offensive teams can be troublesome, but when it lands a hit...wow. Payback is also really awesome on it, beating down psychics like it does. Medicham needed that.

EDIT: Agreeing with T_S, even though I'm surprised people haven't been using Thunder Wave Celebi which totally destroys LO Gyarados's ability to sweep. It also supports the team but eh maybe I'm just crazy...lol

Ársa August 3rd, 2008 11:31 PM

I was running T-Wave, but I found reflect helped my cause better vs other physical sweepers, and Celebi over 75% beats LO DD Gyara anywho. (drawing on my conversation with Aquilae as to my LO DD Gyara weakness)

~T_S

. August 4th, 2008 3:54 AM

Just a note: For people who say it "depends on the team" We all know that, but you must also know some sweepers can be much more troublesome for a wider variety of teams that others. For example, Gyarados is threatening to teams made of fragile sweepers, but it can also hurt wall dependent teams due to it's ability to DD up in their face.

Some sweepers, however, like Electivire, gets walled to hell by a lot of teams with things like Gliscor, Bronzong, Metagross, etc...But it can be *sort* threatening to teams of fragile sweepers god help you if it god a speed boost.

Aquilae August 4th, 2008 4:33 AM

LO Gyarados. It beats out Garchomp due to almost every team having to carry a counter / Steel type, and whatmore there are no electric priority moves. Your basic set, Dragon Dance / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Ice Fang has very few counters. BulkyGyara can't tank and can't sweep, so its a no go.

Gyarados' counters:
  • Celebi - 2HKOed by LO Ice Fang after a DD, and Grass Knot fails to KO Gyarados before it wipes out Celebi. Reflect variants also are at risk if they are 77% health or below on the switchin (SR + 11% prior damage), or if Gyarados gets lucky and rolls more than minimum damage the two turns
  • Tangrowth - LO Gyarados does min 44% to Tangrowth meaning it would wipe Tangrowth out before it can KO it. Unless Tangrowth is running Morning Sun it doesn't have a chance.
  • Cresselia - LO Aqua Tail does 48% min to 252 HP/108 Def Bold so it is a 2-3HKO. Cress can't KO back with Charge Beam in return. Unless it has Moonlight / Reflect, it doesn't stand a chance.
  • Uxie - No reliable recovery besides RestTalk meaning that it is prone to being worn down, DD Aqua Tail does min 51% and max 61%.
  • Mesprit - Doesn't carry recovery at all in most cases meaning that it can be worn down, LO DD Aqua Tail does min 58%
  • Starmie - Gyarados outspeeds and does 86% min with Stone Edge/EQ, OHKOs with Bite on the standard spread. Max defense variants take 67% min from Bite and 55% min from Stone Edge / EQ
  • Slowbro - 2HKOed by LO DD Bite after SR damage, can't OHKO back, otherwise it can counter Gyarados
  • Milotic - 2HKOed by LO DD Stone Edge / EQ while failing to OHKO in return
  • Vaporeon - Counter
  • Suicune - Counter
  • Porygon2 - 100% counter
Not to mention with the speed boost Gyarados would be able to outspeed a lot of common pokemon and Gyarados can setup on a whole host of pokemon.

Garchomp is prepared for on every team, whereas Gyarados can't really be prepared for unless said team has a bulky counter. In the case of all-out offense teams they get brutally decimated by LO DD Gyarados and mostly the only thing stopping it is Deoxys-S.

P.S. No Guard Machamp gets my vote due to irritating confusionhax that always seems to plague me

Espy Psyche August 4th, 2008 4:59 AM

Personally I've both had more success with and more problems with Swords Dance Infernape than any other physical sweeper, including Garchomp and Gyarados. That's because I counter MixApe with Psychetres, the Moltres set I advertise as being a counter for standard Milotic and Vaporeon (and I'm not joking, I can bring it in on an SE STAB Surf and actually beat them). SDApe rips me up because of the SE Thunderpunch and 4x SE Stone Edge.

Dark Azelf August 4th, 2008 5:31 AM

Obligatory Garchomp comment, CB Chomp is just a monster. It really is, there is no other way to put it.

LO DD Gyarados. This thing just tears teams apart (FINALLY people are using it over that mess "Bulky Dos")

Both Tyranitar and Salamence are nasty aswell.

Also im going to Dragonite, again another VERY powerful pokemon thats often underrated.

And last and but by no meant least, the Fighting pokemon AKA Heracross, Machamp, Gallade and Lucario etc.



I also think most of the intimidation on these actually comes from them being unpredictable.

Espy Psyche August 4th, 2008 5:45 AM

I'm so with you on that offensive Gyara vs bulky Gyara thing, I never put LO on my offensive Gyara but I did stuff like EV'd it to hit 398 after a dance, which tears up all other DDers that aim for 396 to beat Aero. Though I liked when everyone used bulky Gyara, my offensive Gyara would tear up teams because everyone thought their Aeros and Jolteons and such outspeed me after a dance.

Vyro August 4th, 2008 6:16 AM

1 word: Salamence.
with max stats he has 405 attack

Divine~Deoxys August 4th, 2008 12:12 PM

And? Loads of pokes have good attacks.My most feared sweepres woudl be..hmmm....i'm scared of most but........Blissey.King-T's swept through mine a while back.


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