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-   -   Garchomp is soon to be an... UBer? O_O; (https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=149645)

peeblo August 9th, 2008 4:27 PM

Garchomp is soon to be an... UBer? O_O;
 
Okay seriously what the heck is Smogon thinking? I mean in that case why not just make Milotic an Uber too? D:

THIS IS MADNESS! O_O

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44306

I think Smogon is high on jelly beanz. But that's just me... your thoughts?

BeachBoy August 9th, 2008 4:34 PM

It's just you buddy. XD; They're not high on jelly beans either, they're finally trying to end a debate that has raged seemingly ages. @[email protected];

Garchomp is by far one of the most destructive forces around, and frankly... I think it's about time for it's ban stamp. :x I used to rebel such measures in the past, but it's just too destructive. It's ability, it's stats, it's power... (And 35% of teams today use a Garchomp, Smogon server stat) So, I know people will rage back and forth, it's a debate that goes on and on. But for my opinion, it's time to say good bye to our lovely pirate shark. (Even if I love the thing to death) I look forward to see how things turn out over there.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 4:40 PM

Well dude you have to realize that a Ice attack has a big potential to put it out of commission. o-o; I don't personally use a Garchomp but I know that if this keeps up they will definitely Uberfy Mence. (Which I do use... >.<; ) I also don't understand why they do it to Chomp... and not to Cresselia or Milotic D: Cresselia has Moonlight and Rest (Lum Berry is abuse...), Milotic has Marvel Scale, Recover AND Hypnosis. o-o; I see a really big thing there.

I also see this happening to Metagross. o-o;

Matt-O August 9th, 2008 4:42 PM

Not everybody uses him, and he can be countered. Granted it isn't easy, but it can be done. Sandstorm is the main thing that makes Chompy destructive. He's tough, but I don't like the attitude that he's too tough and should be forever banned.

Blue Tomoshibi August 9th, 2008 4:45 PM

I'm happy, personally I think Garchomp is ugly.

But Garchomp is easily counter able early game. Late game, when all the faster threats are dealt with, it becomes way powerful.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 4:47 PM

Well, I just think that this is going to lead to something worse. I mean they did it to Deoxys A form o-o; (That thing dies to Sucker Punch.)

Matt-O August 9th, 2008 4:52 PM

Without priority Deoxys-A is a beast. Only rarely does Chompy die because of a priority move.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 4:57 PM

I've killed Chomps with boosted Ice Shard. o-o; Seriously. I just don't think this is right D: Ubers should be Pokes with 410+ stats >.>

ChronicEdge August 9th, 2008 4:58 PM

I don't give a damn about what's banned or not. I say "If the thing's made to be an attacker, don't get pissed when it thrashes you." D:< Seriously.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 5:02 PM

THANK YOU. That's what I say o-o; People just end up crying because they weren't ready for something!!! D: I mean, even Skarmory can potentially wall the Chomp... the corcern would be if the Chomp is Banded or not. As I stated before though, an nice Ice attack puts it out of commission o-o

POKEMASTERALEX August 9th, 2008 5:03 PM

you can't compare Garchomp to metagross. I don't use either but I can still see how gchomp can be a menace to OU and below. A lot of teams run either ttar of hippowdon, sandstorm is everywhere. His ability is such hax. If you switch in a pokemon to counter him and use ice beam and it misses then you get rocked with a supereffective hit.

I'm all for defeating garchomp in OU battles. I've got my own strategy against him and so do others. The only bad thing I see is, now there is a pokemon that FORCES people to use non original pokemon as counters. You would see a lot more variation if it wasn't necessary for you to have a counter to one pokemon. We see enough of that with gengar starmie blissey skarmory mgross ttar. I'm sure I just listed a lot of people's teams. Variation is almost gone from this metagame. Gchomp just makes it worse. He should love to run with the ubers where he doesn't abuse.

Matt-O August 9th, 2008 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844049)
I've killed Chomps with boosted Ice Shard. o-o; Seriously. I just don't think this is right D: Ubers should be Pokes with 410+ stats >.>

I said rarely, not never. They can't ban Pkmn just because of one 410+ stat, they have to base it on their potentail to rape people. With your logic my Rampardos would be an uber. So would Shuckle and the vast majority of Steelix's.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 5:06 PM

Yesh... but I just can't see Chomp in Ubers Dx That's all I'm going to say... when things like this happen it simply means Poke is going toward a wrong direction. :( Hopefully something will happen that will change this madness. D:

BeachBoy August 9th, 2008 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844049)
I've killed Chomps with boosted Ice Shard. o-o; Seriously. I just don't think this is right D: Ubers should be Pokes with 410+ stats >.>

*sigh* This is just... ah, I'll just link you to it. Everyone planning on using the ice point or anyone who doesn't understand...

READ THIS ENTIRE THREAD.


We've been debating and had this regurgitating debate before. The "ice attack destroys" argument doesn't hold a ton of backbone, honestly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by POKEMASTERALEX
you can't compare Garchomp to metagross. I don't use either but I can still see how gchomp can be a menace to OU and below. A lot of teams run either ttar of hippowdon, sandstorm is everywhere. His ability is such hax. If you switch in a pokemon to counter him and use ice beam and it misses then you get rocked with a supereffective hit.

I'm all for defeating garchomp in OU battles. I've got my own strategy against him and so do others. The only bad thing I see is, now there is a pokemon that FORCES people to use non original pokemon as counters. You would see a lot more variation if it wasn't necessary for you to have a counter to one pokemon. We see enough of that with gengar starmie blissey skarmory mgross ttar. I'm sure I just listed a lot of people's teams. Variation is almost gone from this metagame. Gchomp just makes it worse. He should love to run with the ubers where he doesn't abuse.

Thank you.

Quote:

when things like this happen it simply means Poke is going toward a wrong direction.
Banning something overpowered and abused is heading in the right direction, towards fairness. :D

Matt-O August 9th, 2008 5:10 PM

Everyone has their opinion. I don't think Chomp is an uber, but if he does become one, I won't miss him.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 5:13 PM

Yesh, I do respect opinion. Dx But... I'll just shut up. Fair would be putitng Milo in Ubers o.O;

Postman August 9th, 2008 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Tomoshibi (Post 3844004)
I'm happy, personally I think Garchomp is ugly.

But Garchomp is easily counter able early game. Late game, when all the faster threats are dealt with, it becomes way powerful.

ORLy? What counters him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844010)
Well, I just think that this is going to lead to something worse. I mean they did it to Deoxys A form o-o; (That thing dies to Sucker Punch.)

It dies to quick attack o_0

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChronicEdge (Post 3844051)
I don't give a damn about what's banned or not. I say "If the thing's made to be an attacker, don't get pissed when it thrashes you." D:< Seriously.

Oh ok. Say hello to SD Rayquaza.


Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844049)
I've killed Chomps with boosted Ice Shard. o-o; Seriously. I just don't think this is right D: Ubers should be Pokes with 410+ stats >.>

So, Shuckle, Regis, Wailord, Snorlax, Drifblim,Rampardos, Regigigas, ect are ubers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844066)
THANK YOU. That's what I say o-o; People just end up crying because they weren't ready for something!!! D: I mean, even Skarmory can potentially wall the Chomp... the corcern would be if the Chomp is Banded or not. As I stated before though, an nice Ice attack puts it out of commission o-o

Garchomp @ Yache Berry
Jolly
Sword Dance
Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844085)
Yesh... but I just can't see Chomp in Ubers Dx That's all I'm going to say... when things like this happen it simply means Poke is going toward a wrong direction. :( Hopefully something will happen that will change this madness. D:

In my opinion, I rather see Garchomp never used in Ubers then always used in OU

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844107)
Yesh, I do respect opinion. Dx But... I'll just shut up. Fair would be putitng Milo in Ubers o.O;

It cant wall Garchomp, what makes you think it can wall Rayquaza or Mewtwo?

Volkner's Apprentice August 9th, 2008 5:16 PM

I have to completely agree with this ban. Though even though Smogon and PC are pretty much sister-sites (aka PC will probably adapt these rules into the regular meta-game here/popular tournaments) the change might not happen here for a bit, but who knows?

Anyway, I have to agree with some of the people here, there is NO reason we should all be basing our team or editing members we love to use just to counter some shark-dragon-thingy. Sure, I have Ice Beam and maybe even some Ice types to get the stab, but guess what? The majority who do get stab can't stand up to Chomp's speed. I'm definitely NOT afraid of them, believe me, I have counters for them which I use quite often, and very rarely since I added these to my arsenal have I been "swept" or anything of the like by a Garchomp. In fact, it's the exact opposite. But the very root that he has such incredible base stats and can stand up (especially when one is equipped with the ice power-reducing berry which has been a common favorite lately) to a unstabbed Ice attack (also depending on where Chomp users EV invest) should be enough to say hit the Uber showers.

And you definitely can't compare Chomp to the likes of Metagross or really anything in the OU perspective. Again, nobody is afraid of Garchomp nowadays except newer battlers, it's just flipping annoying missing every other attack because smart Chomp teams ALWAYS come with a Sandstorm lead to kick things off.

Ralts 42 August 9th, 2008 5:19 PM

I think garchomp in urbers is MADDNESS!!

by the way nice sig BeachBoy.

Volkner's Apprentice August 9th, 2008 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844085)
Yesh... but I just can't see Chomp in Ubers Dx That's all I'm going to say... when things like this happen it simply means Poke is going toward a wrong direction. :( Hopefully something will happen that will change this madness. D:

As a side note, nobody is trying to bash you here, just your view of Chomp possibly being an uber :P

And in response to the above quote, of course you can't see Chomp in uber, Ice attacks are very common there. But hey, a lot of OU walls and stallers are now being used in the Uber metagame so why couldn't someone find a good spot for Chomp on one of those teams? In that tier, it's easy to counter a Garchomp, there are faster Pokemon with access to high sp.atk and Ice Beams/Blizzards. A lot of such Pokemon even have weather abilities or supporting Pokemon who do. In OU/UU/BL, whatever, it's not easy to have to say "I'm going to make a new team! But first I need a Chomp counter..." and have to revolve around that (espcially if you find out eventually that Garchomp can either stand up to your counter Pokemon or that Pokemon doesn't have much other use.)

Atomic Sharks August 9th, 2008 5:36 PM

me i don't really have a problem with Garchomp becuase most of my pokemon have an ice move or i have some pokemon that has an ice move on my team and if i had to choose if it was a bit weaker it would be OK to keep it out but whenever i go against garcgomp he goes down with i big fight

EricTheEevee August 9th, 2008 7:48 PM

I don't understand why they put those kind of labels on certain pokemon either... Anyone should be able to use any pokemon they want. It's their game, they paid for it, they should be able to do whatever they want with it...

Angelic Diablo August 9th, 2008 7:53 PM

Anyone who has said "Garchomp sucks, Ice moves destroy him" obviously has never faced a true player using a true Garchomp.

The Yache set is by the worst set around, with Sandstorm around every corner problems just add up. No one likes taking SD Outrages, especially if there uber powerful Ice Beam fails to even 2HKO thanks to Yache.

Milotic is in no way on the verge of ubers, the thing is incredibly easy to beat, with or without Marvel Scale, the new powerful attacks just make short work of the mermaid fish thing.

I don't really care if Garchomp moves to ubers or not, I just wish he would stop being so damn popular for a while so we can actually have a decent battle that doesnt end up with someone sweeping with the Shark

4th Gen Matt August 9th, 2008 8:06 PM

Hooray! No more stupid, sweeping Garchomps. Bye bye Garchomp and bye bye Ice Beam on almost all of my pokemon!

An Imperialist named Dak August 9th, 2008 8:11 PM

Yeah but Garchomp will get creamed in ubers w/all the waters and pokes that can learn Ice/Dragon moves can take a hit from him. I guess he's to strong for ubers but too weak for Uber IMO.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 8:40 PM

I think they should make another tier in the middle of Uber and OU. o-o; That would probably be the best in a situation like this.

Nintendo should actually release tiers... O_O

Zennerick August 9th, 2008 8:54 PM

You can get high off of Jelly Beans? COOL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Lazy to Copy and Paste Name Here
I'm happy, personally I think Garchomp is ugly.

But Garchomp is easily counter able early game. Late game, when all the faster threats are dealt with, it becomes way powerful.

He's terribly ugly. I don't even own one...

HEY! PEEBLO! You stole my "Location" thingy! :t057:

Walrein August 9th, 2008 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Diablo (Post 3844718)
Anyone who has said "Garchomp sucks, Ice moves destroy him" obviously has never faced a true player using a true Garchomp.

The Yache set is by the worst set around, with Sandstorm around every corner problems just add up. No one likes taking SD Outrages, especially if there uber powerful Ice Beam fails to even 2HKO thanks to Yache.

Milotic is in no way on the verge of ubers, the thing is incredibly easy to beat, with or without Marvel Scale, the new powerful attacks just make short work of the mermaid fish thing.

I don't really care if Garchomp moves to ubers or not, I just wish he would stop being so damn popular for a while so we can actually have a decent battle that doesnt end up with someone sweeping with the Shark

While I did see the type of Garchomp you are talking about, I think moving it to Ubers is too much. I admit it's very strong, but Ubers? It will die in one Dragon hit from Latios.
Oh, and Cloyster can counter Garchomp very well, and can also bypass Yache with Icicle Spear+Skill Link.

peeblo August 9th, 2008 9:08 PM

Dude, I've never even met you. o-o; And I put that everywhere I can.

Yesh, I know it's not really Uber material at all. D:

The Bringer! August 9th, 2008 9:12 PM

It doesn't matter how it does in ubers. It could be as useful as a garden hose in ubers and still be banned from OU. I think garchomp is uber because of sand veil's xtreme hax.

Magmortified August 9th, 2008 9:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebyss (Post 3844842)
Oh, and Cloyster can counter Garchomp very well, and can also bypass Yache with Icicle Spear+Skill Link.

I remember hearing that Icicle Spear doesn't break Yache Berry on Shoddybattle. Never tested it though.

And Cloyster's ability to tackle Chomp suffers from a SR weakness. And no way to recover it off either.

Quote:

It doesn't matter how it does in ubers. It could be as useful as a garden hose in ubers and still be banned from OU.
Finally somebody realizes that Ubers is just a banlist for the rest of the game and not actually intended to be played or balanced (though people do, because Giratina, Lugia, and the rest of them need love too).

POKEMASTERALEX August 9th, 2008 9:26 PM

It really does not matter how it would do in ubers. lol there is no rule that says "alright guys, no matter what happens we have to make sure gchomp is fantastic in its tier" Also if seaking is playable in ubers, with a little prediciton gchomp should be too

Haza August 9th, 2008 10:34 PM

Garchomp would get tossed in the Uber Tier. I can easily take out garchomp with my Lemonade(Jolteon) who uses a Choice Specs HP Ice, Modest and all.

Blue Nocturne August 9th, 2008 10:47 PM

I toss him in the Ubers. There are better pokemon out there but tiers aren't really important to me, yes garchomp can be a terrifying monster from under the bed but so can most other pokemon if they are trained properly and have a tactical moveset.

peeblo August 10th, 2008 12:40 AM

Well just have to see what happens next o-o; I am only a faction of all the people rioting in various places D:

LethalTexture August 10th, 2008 12:41 AM

This debate would be better in S&M.

*moves*

peeblo August 10th, 2008 12:42 AM

Not really a debate... but whatever. o-o I do believe a mod was already in here though. Makes no real difference either XD Thanks I guess. :}

Ársa August 10th, 2008 12:54 AM

Damn, I was hoping to get in on this thread before some of the others did, but oh well....*sigh

I do suggest you read the link that BeachBoy posted, and study up before you comment like this again.

~T_S

peeblo August 10th, 2008 1:10 AM

I did read it. From the time I saw it, didn't change my mind at all. I know perfectly what Chompy is capable of doing.

IMtheMACHAMP August 10th, 2008 1:18 AM

Its not the fact that hes to strong its the fact that people that use him suck the fun out of the game.. its like here is my team.. its all nice and neat.. good movesets... IVs EVs.. whole nine yards... wait... did you prepare for Garchomp ... O No he wrecks your team... it is not because he is to strong its because he limits what you can do and after awhile its old... and he isnt so simple to take out with a boosted ice attack .. ive fought many chomps with yache berry and they just shrug it off and begin to sweep... truth is... your not safe in OU unless u have 2 counters for Garchomp.. and thats just stupid..

Ársa August 10th, 2008 1:25 AM

^^ Well, you sorta got the message, I just don't think you conveyed it all that well. If you HAD read that link Peeblo, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, especially if all you're using is the above comments, which become null when backed by that.

~T_S

Mystery2009 August 10th, 2008 2:17 AM

My opinon on this situation is to ban it. Garchomp has virtually no counter and just being around it makes blind kids cry. There is no true counter to this jerk and its ability just adds to its demise. (personally I dont care what happens to it but if I have one less "threat" to counter it cant be all bad) When the ban happended on this site nothing changed for me, i just found another pokemon to use. And although its not a threat to me its pathetic to see a whole team to be changed because of a single ou

Aquilae August 10th, 2008 2:41 AM

I propose that this thread title be changed as it is misleading - yes, this new action taken by Smogon may provide evidence to ban Garchomp, no, it hasn't been banned yet.

I've battled in the suspect test ladder, and the loss of Garchomp had impacted my teams both offensively and defensively, defensively as Garchomp is a reliable answer to Tyranitar, SDLucario, not being Sala / Nite setup fodder...

I support this ban, as what makes Garchomp overpowered is the Yache Berry set forcing players to carry multiple revenge-killers and counters to it on their team. Choice Band Garchomp is also a serious threat, 2HKOing walls not resisting Outrage.

I feel my points have been expounded clearly in the tier debate thread.

ThePlaya August 10th, 2008 2:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystery (Post 3845535)
My opinon on this situation is to ban it. Garchomp has virtually no counter and just being around it makes blind kids cry. There is no true counter to this jerk and its ability just adds to its demise. (personally I dont care what happens to it but if I have one less "threat" to counter it cant be all bad) When the ban happended on this site nothing changed for me, i just found another pokemon to use. And although its not a threat to me its pathetic to see a whole team to be changed because of a single ou

I totally agree with this.
It really sucks that almost every team has to be changed just to be able to counter that Garchomp.
I agree that it should be moved to UBER. Though it won't do any good there, it's too powerful to be in OU but too weak to be UBER.
But I'm fine with that, and so are many people.

Banjora Marxvile August 10th, 2008 2:58 AM

well, you only need a powerful Ice pokemon to defeat garchomp, don't you? As Garchomp is Dragon/Ground, Ice pokemon could defeat it, if the Ice pokemon isn't defeated first though.

Archer August 10th, 2008 3:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtwigtoon (Post 3845586)
well, you only need a powerful Ice pokemon to defeat garchomp, don't you? As Garchomp is Dragon/Ground, Ice pokemon could defeat it, if the Ice pokemon isn't defeated first though.

LOL. Try battling competitively. Bit harder when it doesn't use Giga Impact and Crunch.

Walrein August 10th, 2008 3:23 AM

In short, it's either Cloyster moving to OU to defeat Garchomp (180 Def+Icicle Spear+Skill Link) or Garchimp becoming an Uber. I'm happy in both cases :) .

Archer August 10th, 2008 3:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebyss (Post 3845615)
In short, it's either Cloyster moving to OU to defeat Garchomp (180 Def+Icicle Spear+Skill Link) or Garchimp becoming an Uber. I'm happy in both cases :) .

Um, there is nothing stopping Cloyster from being used in OU. Aside from a fighting weak, lol.

peeblo August 10th, 2008 3:41 AM

Quote:

^^ Well, you sorta got the message, I just don't think you conveyed it all that well. If you HAD read that link Peeblo, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on, especially if all you're using is the above comments, which become null when backed by that.
I did read it o-o; (Seriously.) xD lol, Eh like I said before... I'm defending Chompy because it's very messed up to put a normal Pokemon with a bunch of "monsters." (I don't use one.) I simply think that Smogon is going to far with it, if it does go through some of my friends' strategies will sorta have to change, not to mention the work some put into it since they bred for decent IVs o-o; I also think that sooner or later they will get to Pokes I use D:

Also, Chomp carries Yache Berry around 80% of the time... if it doesn't a STABed Ice Shard has potential to kill it o-o; (I've seen quite a few Scarfed ones too, if it helps to say.)

EDIT: Potential would pretty much just include something with 340+ Att o-o; (Meaning most likely Mamo or Vile.)

Ársa August 10th, 2008 3:45 AM

The only reason Garchomp is being considered is because it is too hard to counter. Salamence, Metagross etc are easier to counter, and have 100% counters, unlike Garchomp.

~T_S

peeblo August 10th, 2008 3:58 AM

Technically Chomp would have the same top weakness to Mence, but that's not if you factor in things like Stealth Rock, and a SandStorm, and other types of damage/immunities. (Though I suppose Rock does bring down Mence too... I've just never had contact with my Mence from it seems. o-o) Either way, I've said what I could. Now to sleep =D

Thank You all for taking interest, please continue. *flies away on hammer*

Sora_8920 August 10th, 2008 4:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3845657)
Technically Chomp would have the same top weakness to Mence, but that's not if you factor in things like Stealth Rock, and a SandStorm, and other types of damage/immunities. (Though I suppose Rock does bring down Mence too... I've just never had contact with my Mence from it seems. o-o) Either way, I've said what I could. Now to sleep =D

Thank You all for taking interest, please continue. *flies away on hammer*

Lol. Anyway, I agree with T_S; Garchomp is hard to counter, especially with Sand Veil.

Walrein August 10th, 2008 4:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer (Post 3845620)
Um, there is nothing stopping Cloyster from being used in OU. Aside from a fighting weak, lol.

So now Tyranitar should become UU?

Smarties-chan August 10th, 2008 6:20 AM

How can you even begin to compare Garchomp to Milotic? What can Milotic do outside of supporting the team with Light Screen, inducing sleep and possibly scoring a surprise KO with Mirror Coat? Not much, really. However Garchomp is a whole different matter. Garchomp has an excellent combination of STAB moves along with defensive capabilities that rival Swampert's and a massive Attack stat combined with good Speed and Swords Dance and arguably one of the best traits in the game. Just pair it up with a Tyranitar or Hippowdon and your "counters" will suddenly only succeed at stopping Chomp 80% of the time. Throw in a Yache Berry and you'll need not one, but two fast Ice attackers to take it down, or would you perhaps prefer a Sand Veil + Brightpowder combo giving it a 28% evasion boost in the sand? After just one Swords Dance (which is extremely easy to set up with Garchomp's good defenses and excellent resistances) Garchomp can one-hit KO a large amount of OUs and the majority of those that aren't one-hit KO'd will die to the second hit and won't be able to OHKO it.

I have first-hand experience of how devastating Garchomp can be. I used to run a rather bad offensive team in Shoddy once and Garchomp alone has won me many matches with it. In most battles, Garchomp took down at least two Pokémon before going down. I ran a Jolly Life Orb Garchomp with Swords Dance and it's just ridiculous how many things get OHKOd after a Swords Dance. Gliscor was often the initial switch-in on my Garchomp and it quickly died to a Swords Dance Outrage. Outrage after just one Swords Dance (provided that Garchomp has Life Orb) is nearly a guaranteed 2-hit KO (49.11% - 57.99% damage) on a +Def 252 / 252 HP/Defense Bronzong. Swampert and Cresselia with the same EV spread take 97.77% - 115.10% and 73.42% - 86.26%. Vaporeon doesn't even stand a chance to survive the move. We're talking about some serious power here.

A well-played Garchomp will never go down without taking at least two other Pokémon with it. (or severely hurting them so that they are practically useless) There is no Pokémon that can switch in on Garchomp without risking to lose a huge chunk of its HP and Yache Berry and Sand Veil make any counters unreliable at best. I've rarely had trouble dealing with Garchomp, but that's only because most people don't know how to use it, and even in the hands of these clueless people, Chomp has usually taken at least one of my Pokémon down with it. However, after having used one myself, I became convinced that the thing belongs in Ubers. Even a complete moron can wreak havoc with Garchomp; now imagine that force in the hands of someone who can actually use it. Toxic Spikes is probably the best "counter" to Garchomp and that doesn't really say much considering Garchomp can come in and set up on any Toxic Spiker before they can get their Toxic Spikes on the field and even then, Spinners do exist. (which aren't nearly as common as they used to be, but then again, the use of Toxic Spikes has also been declining after the Tentacruel hype ended)

Also, keep in mind that just because there's a Garchomp-less test ladder doesn't mean it'll necessarily be banned. The people who have played on it will vote on whether or not they prefer the metagame as it is now or a Garchomp-less one. The countless Garchomp debates have accomplished nothing so I don't see why it'd be a bad idea to actually try a Garchomp-free metagame. How could we possibly know whether or not a metagame without Garchomp is less centralized unless we actually try it out?

Magmortified August 10th, 2008 6:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebyss (Post 3845680)
So now Tyranitar should become UU?

Maybe it's because Cloyster really isn't that great when you factor in Stealth Rock, the lack of recovery, the prominence of Close Combat as a move when Cloyster's trying to be a Physical wall... you know. At least Tar's good enough to make up for the Fighting weakness.

And why does Cloyster need to be OU to counter Garchomp (though I'm really not too sure on its ability to counter Chomp)? You can use UU things in OU, y'know. ._.

Volkner's Apprentice August 10th, 2008 7:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarties-chan (Post 3845933)
How can you even begin to compare Garchomp to Milotic? What can Milotic do outside of supporting the team with Light Screen, inducing sleep and possibly scoring a surprise KO with Mirror Coat? Not much, really. However Garchomp is a whole different matter. Garchomp has an excellent combination of STAB moves along with defensive capabilities that rival Swampert's and a massive Attack stat combined with good Speed and Swords Dance and arguably one of the best traits in the game. Just pair it up with a Tyranitar or Hippowdon and your "counters" will suddenly only succeed at stopping Chomp 80% of the time. Throw in a Yache Berry and you'll need not one, but two fast Ice attackers to take it down, or would you perhaps prefer a Sand Veil + Brightpowder combo giving it a 28% evasion boost in the sand? After just one Swords Dance (which is extremely easy to set up with Garchomp's good defenses and excellent resistances) Garchomp can one-hit KO a large amount of OUs and the majority of those that aren't one-hit KO'd will die to the second hit and won't be able to OHKO it.

I have first-hand experience of how devastating Garchomp can be. I used to run a rather bad offensive team in Shoddy once and Garchomp alone has won me many matches with it. In most battles, Garchomp took down at least two Pokémon before going down. I ran a Jolly Life Orb Garchomp with Swords Dance and it's just ridiculous how many things get OHKOd after a Swords Dance. Gliscor was often the initial switch-in on my Garchomp and it quickly died to a Swords Dance Outrage. Outrage after just one Swords Dance (provided that Garchomp has Life Orb) is nearly a guaranteed 2-hit KO (49.11% - 57.99% damage) on a +Def 252 / 252 HP/Defense Bronzong. Swampert and Cresselia with the same EV spread take 97.77% - 115.10% and 73.42% - 86.26%. Vaporeon doesn't even stand a chance to survive the move. We're talking about some serious power here.

A well-played Garchomp will never go down without taking at least two other Pokémon with it. (or severely hurting them so that they are practically useless) There is no Pokémon that can switch in on Garchomp without risking to lose a huge chunk of its HP and Yache Berry and Sand Veil make any counters unreliable at best. I've rarely had trouble dealing with Garchomp, but that's only because most people don't know how to use it, and even in the hands of these clueless people, Chomp has usually taken at least one of my Pokémon down with it. However, after having used one myself, I became convinced that the thing belongs in Ubers. Even a complete moron can wreak havoc with Garchomp; now imagine that force in the hands of someone who can actually use it. Toxic Spikes is probably the best "counter" to Garchomp and that doesn't really say much considering Garchomp can come in and set up on any Toxic Spiker before they can get their Toxic Spikes on the field and even then, Spinners do exist. (which aren't nearly as common as they used to be, but then again, the use of Toxic Spikes has also been declining after the Tentacruel hype ended)

Also, keep in mind that just because there's a Garchomp-less test ladder doesn't mean it'll necessarily be banned. The people who have played on it will vote on whether or not they prefer the metagame as it is now or a Garchomp-less one. The countless Garchomp debates have accomplished nothing so I don't see why it'd be a bad idea to actually try a Garchomp-free metagame. How could we possibly know whether or not a metagame without Garchomp is less centralized unless we actually try it out?

Um so, yeah, that's amazing. Excellent defense of a possible no-Chomp future! There's no reason we can't try it out. Though those rules have yet to set in here on PC, at least in the Battle Stadium anyway. So unfortunately we don't get Garchomp-less battles for awhile if you're looking for opponents here.

_Prince_ August 10th, 2008 8:22 AM

It's just a separate test ladder to test out the current meta-game without Garchomp around to see how it goes and at the end of that they will decide if the meta-game without garchomp is somewhat better. so nothing is offical yet. Anything could happen.

I can't wait when they test out the Latios and other few ubers...

Aurafire August 10th, 2008 8:24 AM

Just looking at its base stats, you can see how Garchomp compares to some Ubers. That being said, I really would be ok with it being OU if not for the most annoying ability in the world: Sand Veil. Without it, Chomp is still an amazing physical sweeper who would still dominate OU play. But factor in all moves against him have only an 80% chance to hit, at best. A couple of misses and Garchomp will literally *chomp* you and your entire team. I personally think Garchomp is very over-powered and should be moved to Ubers.

Matt-O August 10th, 2008 9:37 AM

I agree simply because I'm tired of seeing him. But that can't be the only reason to kick him out, or Blissey would be gone too. Seriously, he does have the stats, ability, and movepool to be too large of a threat in the OU tier. People just abuse him nowadays.

TogekissIsNotCheap August 10th, 2008 10:23 AM

I hate Garchomp in every possible way. it's so ugly, way to strong for the metagame, and is so annoying. I would looooooove to see at least 2 maches in a row without him.

NerdSparks August 10th, 2008 10:33 AM

to be honest quad weakness for an uber is fail. garchomp is very easy to beat even it its yache berry. the most effective way of beating it is using a tank/wall that can lower it to about 1/2 health, so that your sweeper can kill it regardless of yache berry. for the scarf version just use a tank with ice beam like mesprit, for band/chainchomp use a pokemon like weavile/mamoswine.

ABYAY August 10th, 2008 10:44 AM

Garchomp has limbo'd Ubers for so long...I've never used it, or even Heracross, or heck, even Bronzong! Don't ask...I'm just me. ^^

Anyway, Garchomp is an absolute terror in the OU metagame, and it usually kills something, or dang, even a whole team.

CBer: Excellent
Scarf Revenge Killer: Excellent
SDer: Excellent and sweeps everything sometimes
BulkyChomp (Hey, it has a good typing and better base defenses than Swampert): Your call

Garchomp has enough in each stat to pose a threat in nearly every category aside from special attacking, and there's Chain Chomp for that. The only thing ultimately preventing it from thrashing the metagame is its 102 base speed, which is still killer. Its defenses make it quick and powerful, and 350+ HP without EVs isn't something to just sneeze at and walk away, coupled with around 200 sp.def without EVs. It has caused the metagame to run certain moves due to its massive threat level to the metagame.

Countering Garchomp isn't that easy. Even Smogon says that there isn't really a counter for Garchomp in the Counters section, but gives suggestions to halt its sweep. Cresselia can set up reflect, but come in on a CB Outrage, and your Chomp counter is gone. Weavile can outspeed and revenge Garchomp with CB Ice Shard, but 2 things hinder that, and they are Sand Veil and the presence of Yache Berry.

As for my opinion, I'm unconcerned on where it goes. I don't use it, and it would only benefit me at that point. I say it's Uber material, probably just over the line of OU, but I couldn't say for sure.

Now for counter sayings.

@lilsparks: Okay, so let's say you bring in your wall, aka Milotic while Garchomp Swords Dances. EQ is a 2HKO while your Ice Beam will fail due to Yache Berry. Cresselia can't do damage quick enough, and SD Outrage is a 2HKO while Yache saves the dragon. Who else are you going to implement in this situation?

NerdSparks August 10th, 2008 10:46 AM

i agree with what you say but moving garchomp to uber would only make bring up another pokemon that people would think was unfair (much like dragonite was in RBY XD)

Magmortified August 10th, 2008 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilsparks101 (Post 3846313)
to be honest quad weakness for an uber is fail.

Raaaaaaaaaayquaza.

Quote:

garchomp is very easy to beat even it its yache berry. the most effective way of beating it is using a tank/wall that can lower it to about 1/2 health, so that your sweeper can kill it regardless of yache berry.
Might you find us a good tank that doesn't usually get 2HKO'd by YacheChomp? =P

Quote:

i agree with what you say but moving garchomp to uber would only make bring up another pokemon that people would think was unfair (much like dragonite was in RBY XD)
It goes without saying that something's going to end up taking Chomp's spot as #1 OU Pokemon, but it's not necessarily going to be considered unfair. Just because Garchomp's gone doesn't mean the current things are any more powerful.

NerdSparks August 10th, 2008 11:03 AM

yes rayquaza does have a a quad weakness but his stats surpass garchomp's to make up for that. iirc swampert/mesprit can all live a single SD dragon claw/eq

MM_Zero August 10th, 2008 11:14 AM

A lot of people are saying that Garchomp shouldn't be an uber because he will stink in ubers. That's a pretty dumb arguement. Ubers is supposed to be very unbalanced, its a banlist for OU. Like look at Manaphy, no one uses him in ubers due to its pitiful stats compared to the rest, but Manaphy would be a beast in OU, with a mighty 100 base sp.atk+Surf+Tail Glow+Rain+STAB. Also don't forget hydration, which makes him invulnerable to any status condition in the rain.

Matt-O August 10th, 2008 11:35 AM

Exactly, and ubers is mainly unbalanced because it's the only way that OU stays balanced. Garchomp is getting to be so common, with so few weaknesses and the ability to completely destroy people, he's disbalancing the metagame a little bit.

airconditioning August 10th, 2008 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3843952)
Okay seriously what the heck is Smogon thinking? I mean in that case why not just make Milotic an Uber too? D:

THIS IS MADNESS! O_O

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3843985)
Well dude you have to realize that a Ice attack has a big potential to put it out of commission. o-o; I don't personally use a Garchomp but I know that if this keeps up they will definitely Uberfy Mence. (Which I do use... >.<; ) I also don't understand why they do it to Chomp... and not to Cresselia or Milotic D: Cresselia has Moonlight and Rest (Lum Berry is abuse...), Milotic has Marvel Scale, Recover AND Hypnosis. o-o; I see a really big thing there.

I also see this happening to Metagross. o-o;

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844010)
Well, I just think that this is going to lead to something worse. I mean they did it to Deoxys A form o-o; (That thing dies to Sucker Punch.)
Know anything that runs Sucker Punch besides Spiritomb, Honchkrow, Absol, and Toxicroak?

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844049)
Ubers should be Pokes with 410+ stats >.>

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844107)
Fair would be putitng Milo in Ubers o.O;

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricTheEevee (Post 3844708)
I don't understand why they put those kind of labels on certain pokemon either... Anyone should be able to use any pokemon they want. It's their game, they paid for it, they should be able to do whatever they want with it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by peeblo (Post 3844799)
I think they should make another tier in the middle of Uber and OU. o-o; That would probably be the best in a situation like this.

Nintendo should actually release tiers... O_O
No they should not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~*HazaBaraFatale*~ (Post 3845001)
Garchomp would get tossed in the Uber Tier. I can easily take out garchomp with my Lemonade(Jolteon) who uses a Choice Specs HP Ice, Modest and all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSeal (Post 3845027)
but so can most other pokemon if they are trained properly and have a tactical moveset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMtheMACHAMP (Post 3845428)
its like here is my team.. its all nice and neat.. good movesets... IVs EVs.. whole nine yards... wait... did you prepare for Garchomp ... O No he wrecks your team...
BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO PREPARE FOR ANY OTHER POKEMON WHEN MAKING A TEAM AMIRITE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtwigtoon (Post 3845586)
well, you only need a powerful Ice pokemon to defeat garchomp, don't you? As Garchomp is Dragon/Ground, Ice pokemon could defeat it, if the Ice pokemon isn't defeated first though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilsparks101 (Post 3846313)
to be honest quad weakness for an uber is fail. OLOL RAYQUAZA AND HO-OH, garchomp is very easy to beat even it its yache berry. the most effective way of beating it is using a tank/wall that can lower it to about 1/2 health, so that your sweeper can kill it regardless of yache berry. for the scarf version just use a tank with ice beam like mesprit, for band/chainchomp use a pokemon like weavile/mamoswine.

Quote:

Garchomp is ugly
Posts like these are the reason I hate the Diamond and Pearl forum. If you have no idea what you're talking about, please don't argue.

As for the ban, I don't care for Garchomp much. It's probably because I don't battle enough (and therefore don't see him much), but he doesn't really scare me. :/

Magmortified August 10th, 2008 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilsparks101 (Post 3846355)
yes rayquaza does have a a quad weakness but his stats surpass garchomp's to make up for that.

But you said, "quad weakness for an uber is phail."

If it comes down to stats making up for it, the question'd be if Chomp's bulkyness, Speed, and offensive might is enough to make the threshold for too broken for OU.

Quote:

iirc swampert/mesprit can all live a single SD dragon claw/eq
Yeah. So you have to sacrifice your Swampert (which is 2HKO'd by SD Earthquake) or Mesprit (which is 2HKO'd by SD Dragon Claw) to bring Chomp within range of getting killed by the sweeper. And guess what? Chomp can just switch out for something that can take your sweeper on. You end up having to lose a Pokemon just to bring Chomp within range of being killed by another, which isn't guaranteed even then (especially considering Sand Veil).

That's easy?

ABYAY August 10th, 2008 11:46 AM

We're in different boats about Garchomp sighting AC: I see one every game I play pretty much, and it is one of the only reasons why I run Ice Beam + Reflect on Cressy (And DDMence/Nite). However, we're on the same general concept that we don't care where it's placed.

SmashGood August 10th, 2008 11:58 AM

The idea that a ban on Garchomp would lead to more bannings is a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope:

"The slippery slope fallacy is also known as the 'unjustified projection.' The argument is made that a first step will inevitably lead to another, usually undesirable, final outcome. If there is inadequate evidence that this outcome will follow, beware-you are facing a slippery slope fallacy. Taking an argument all the way to the end is often a great way to determine the argument’s validity. Demand evidence that one outcome necessarily follows from the first step.

We don’t know that a ban on handguns will lead to a ban on hunting rifles and other weapons. We can’t say that legalizing abortion will lead to murdering the old and the physically and mentally handicapped. What evidence supports these outcomes? Each argument rushes downhill to a conclusion that is not supported by valid evidence. The slippery slope argument is tricky because it relies on future events, and only future events will verify or refute the prediction. Arguments that project unjustifiably are also simplistic because they ignore the dissimilarities between first and last steps, and because they ignore the complexity of developments in any long chain of events." -
2001, Oregonians of Rationality

The idea that Salamence is threatened is not even part of why Garchomp should or should not be banned. There is nothing that links the two to where if one is listed as an Uber, so shall all of these. No matter what is said, Garchomp will always offer something different than any other poke; Same goes for Salamence or any other.

All I'm trying to show is that that is not a valid defense for keeping Garchomp around. That if, 'Garchomp is made an Uber, others will follow! We might as well call UU the new OU!' There would have to be debates for each and every one in question.

airconditioning August 10th, 2008 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmashGood (Post 3846487)
The idea that a ban on Garchomp would lead to more bannings is a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope:

Kinda agreeing with this. If Garchomp's ban were to be a catalyst for other Pokemon arising, then Garchomp would have to be a check for that Pokemon. For example:

Let's say that if Garchomp is banned, that Salamence would take its place as an overpowered powerhouse, and be up next for a ban. That would be impossible, as Garchomp isn't the only check to that Pokemon. There are other Pokemon that can counter/ kill Salamence, such as Cresselia, Suicune, Weavile, or Swampert (don't fight me on these, I'm kinda making this up. Just pretend that these Pokemon actually can counter Sally, because I know there are a number of others that can.)- Garchomp's ban wouldn't affect those Pokemon's ability to defeat Salamence, therefore, Salamence would stay in check. This is the same for almost all other Pokemon- Garchomp may prove as a check to a few of those Pokemon, but there are others that check those Pokemon as well.

Quote:

We might as well call UU the new OU!'
Out of context, but we may as well, with Aerodactyl and Weezing UU.

SmashGood August 10th, 2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airconditioning (Post 3846524)
Out of context, but we may as well, with Aerodactyl and Weezing UU.

I was using that as a really, over exaggerated example.

Anti August 10th, 2008 12:41 PM

Choice Scarf Cresselia = Garchomp counter. Oh what now! (If you take that seriously I will do everything in my power to run you out of this thread lol :P) To its credit it does beat the uncounterable set :P

I really wish I had a link to MoP's post awhile back about this but I'm too lazy to search Smogon. Garchomp will probably be banned anyways. It's really easy to play around and even easier to revenge kill though. I compared it to SD FO Cross and all I ever get is "Garchomp is a lot faster and half the time he can switch out of Outrage." Interesting, because all of the time Heracross can switch out and decimate every slow wall in the game. Garchomp is either trapped and revenge killed, or its sweep is temporarily stopped (and at around 50% health it's a lot harder to switch in).

Yeah SD FO cross dies quicker and is easily revenge killed, but Garchomp is easy to revenge kill. Its yache berry will probably be gone, so feel free to ice shard it to hell. About every choice scarfer in the game outspeeds it can can KO it (assuming that your counter wore it down with an Ice Beam to break its berry before biting the dust to Outrage).

what I'm saying is that Garchomp has the ability to pretty much destroy every slow wall in the game with the uncounterable YacheOutrage chomp. However, various revenge killers can stop it from sweeping teams.

Also, remember that the metagame is highly offensive. Garchomp can take a beating repeatedly switching in on certain pokemon (for example, it is known to do great against SDluke, but if you switch in on LO Close Combat half of your health is gone,and all of a sudden you aren't uncounterable). Garchomp is very bulky, but even a lot of walls can't stand up to sweeping powerhouses that exist these days.

Quite frankly, I prefer both CBchomp and Scarfchomp to most any variant of SDchomp. BTW special mention goes out to Bronzong, who can survive one SD Fire Fang and sleep or blow up on Garchomp.

Also, with most teams being offensive these days, the idea of countering something isn't as important as it used to be.

Honestly though I would not be sad to see it go. It is the most powerful pokemon in OUs and it is on more than 1/3 of teams. Peopole are so paranoid about it and a lot of people overprepare. That is "over centralization," so maybe it should be banned. I just don't think that SDchomp is THAT much better than other fearsome sweepers like Salamence, Lucario, and Gyarados.

BTW I expect Garchomp to be banned after this month's ladder without Garchomp is over. Usually a counter and something to revenge kill it as a safety net works just fine, but I guess other people don't feel that way. I mean that's what I did with the presidents team and it worked just fine.

Yeah that's pretty much what I think. I know you all disagree but eh, just wanted to share my thoughts :P

BTW I haven't read through all of this thread, but if anybody is using the "Cress comes in to counter SDchomp and eats CB Outrage and dies in two hits so there, no counters" argument, you aren't thinking. Yeah CBchomp beats cresselia, but CBchomp isn't the reason people want garchomp uber. Not only that, but Garchomp isn't the only pokemon wherte one pokemon can't counter all of its sets. Take Lucario for example. Yeah Gliscor and weezing beat up SDluke, but if it's specsluke, they die. Just to say that in case somebody has or somebody wants to say that.

EDIT: For the recrod I'm not saying SD FO cross is the threat Garchomp is. It's the best analogy I could come up with lol

I do think Garchomp should be banned because it really affects peoples' teams these days. I don't think it SHOULD though, which is more what I'm trying to say I'm thinking. lol it's only a matter of time before that backlash comes :(

sims796 August 10th, 2008 12:46 PM

I haven't been more insulted to read the American language in quite some time. The biggest problem is that people are LITERALLY IGNORING ALL POST that counters them. They say, "I read that Garchomp's counters can't stop him, but he has counters!", or "I know Garchomp's Ice weakness doesn't stop him AT ALL, but Garchomp has an Ice weakness"! Seriously, are you guys just plain idiots, or are you just illiterate?

I am also at an impass at Chomp being uber. I like Chomp, and don't feel him that broken, but their is overwhelming evidence for him being uber, and moronic post for him not.

And SmashGood, why aren't you on my friendslist yet? Seriously, I'll sum up that post for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmashGood (Post 3846487)
The idea that a ban on Garchomp would lead to more bannings is a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope:
Everybody saying "CHOMP IS UBER, SO EVERYONE ELSE WILL BE SOON ENOUGH", needs to grow up.

TL;DR version. Classic.

EDIT:AHA, ANTI BEAT MEH

Sebastien Loeb August 10th, 2008 12:50 PM

You certain Garchomp becomes uber, and because no Tyranitar EPU (Easy Powner User[banned in the ubers])?
But from the we don't exaggerate.

Sora_8920 August 10th, 2008 2:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastien Loeb (Post 3846609)
You certain Garchomp becomes uber, and because no Tyranitar EPU (Easy Powner User[banned in the ubers])?
But from the we don't exaggerate.

TBH, I didn't understand that post at all... =/

Anyway, what's TL;DR? -_-

airconditioning August 10th, 2008 2:12 PM

Too long ; didn't read

I'd tell you to lurk moar, but honestly, that's something I'd expect from you. :/

Magmortified August 10th, 2008 2:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastien Loeb (Post 3846609)
You certain Garchomp becomes uber, and because no Tyranitar EPU (Easy Powner User[banned in the ubers])?
But from the we don't exaggerate.

I haven't a clue what that post is saying.

Everything is allowed in Ubers. This means Tar. So Tar + Garchomp is still possible in Ubers. Though Sandstorm's significantly less common in Ubers (and therefore Sand Veil's less of a factor), if that's what you're saying.

tl;dr = Too long; didn't read.

EDIT: Curses I've been ninja'd.

SmashGood August 10th, 2008 2:20 PM

Haha, thank you Sims.

And as to my two cents for Garchomp, I'm for having it move into Ubers. I believe it would make the OU metagame much more entertaining, seeing a lot more of a variety in what is used and let those that never see to much action, because of being straight-up outclassed by Garchomp, have some fun.

And I'm sorry Sebastien Loeb, but I do not understand what you are trying to say.

sims796 August 10th, 2008 2:22 PM

LURK MOAR

Anywho, Magmortified reminds me, Chomp actually fares pretty well in ubers, nullifying that argument evem more.

Matt-O August 10th, 2008 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sims796 (Post 3846596)
I haven't been more insulted to read the American language in quite some time. The biggest problem is that people are LITERALLY IGNORING ALL POST that counters them. They say, "I read that Garchomp's counters can't stop him, but he has counters!", or "I know Garchomp's Ice weakness doesn't stop him AT ALL, but Garchomp has an Ice weakness"! Seriously, are you guys just plain idiots, or are you just illiterate?

Those people are right and wrong at the same time. Garchomp has things that CAN counter him, but his ability leaves it up to luck whether or not the DO. The prominence of Hippowdon and Tyranitar in the metagame means that there is often a Sandstorm in effect, thus Sand Veil often kicks in. Without that ability, Weavile, Cressy, Swampy, Hippowdon and probably even Bulky Dos (packing Ice Fang) would be able to stop him on a regular basis. Even with the Yache Berry Ice moves from them and others would bring him way down on health and allow for an easy revenge kill if they themselves didn't get the job done. But with Sand Veil there is always a decent chance of missing, so things that can potentially counter him often miss their chance. This is why he has a weakness, but it doesn't usually stop him. Part of the reason he is devastating is Hippowdon and T-Tar.

If you are sayin at this moment,"OMG! He wants to ban them too," Shut up. You're an idiot. I don't think they should go too, I love my Hippowdon. It's just that they contribute to Garchomp being a major threat.

. August 10th, 2008 4:02 PM

I personally think Chomp should be in ubers. It's performence in Ubers doesn't change the fact that it practically breaks the entire OU Metagame. Nearly every team has something to deal with Chomp, whether it be a revenge killer, or even a wall that can take it's hits. Even still, unless they pack Reflect, they will more than likely be 2HKO'd.

Let's look at Garchomp's typing. Ground/Dragon leaves it with only 2 weaknesses. A 4x. and a 2x. Almost no one attacks Chomp for it's Dragon weakness, preferably going for the Ice weakness. Still, Chomp's bulky enough to make use of Yache Berry, which can give it a free turn to do whatever the hell it wants. Even still, don't think a single Ice attack will down Chomp, most need at least 269 SpA EV's to OHKO min HP/min SpD Chomp, nevermind Yache Berry. That means to be an effective Chomp counter, you'll need to heavily invest in SpA.

Now, let's look at Chomp's STABs. It has te 3rd most powerful Earthquake in the entire game. The 3rd most powerful Outrage in the entire game. The only things that have a stronger Earthquake are Rhyperior (which sucks anyway) and Groudon (which is a high-tier Uber) The only things with a stronger Outrage are Dragonite (which, in my opinion, has little that it can offer over Chomp except for DD + Outrage) And Rayquaza (which is a high-tier uber)

Let's also look at Garchomp's ability; Sand Veil. Sand Veil means that even you're counter for Chomp can miss and either be OHKO'd or put into the range where they won't be useful for anything else (in that event, Garchomp can switch out)

This whole debate between Chomp being outclassed by Rayquaza is true, however, Garchomp will almost always beat Rayquaza one on one because it has a higher base speed. In fact, Garchomp is in it's own speed tier. Base 102 allows it to outrun ALL base 100's. That means Salamence cannot outspeed and OHKO it without a DD. Chomp is also bulkier than Salamence, and Swampert.

After I look at it, Chomp has too much going for it to stay in OU. It has an incredible typing, incredible movepool, a unique speed tier, and one hell of an effect on the metagame. I say goodbye Chomp, glad to see you gone.

sims796 August 10th, 2008 4:03 PM

Not entirely. It's dangerous without Sandstorm. Very little can switch in to counter it. Almost all counters are 2hko'ed, and there goes his counters. You MUST revenge kill it, as almost nothing can really switch in. Not that it's unbeatable, but it is very overcenralizing.

EDIT; AHA,VANCE BEAT MEH

SmashBrony August 10th, 2008 6:36 PM

I belive they had this arguement bout tyranitar...
if garchomp goes bye-bye, then so will tyranitar.

airconditioning August 10th, 2008 7:08 PM

Why would Tyranitar leave? Garchomp's departure from OU wouldn't make Tyranitar overpowered, meaning he would have no reason to be banned.

The Hero Without a Name August 10th, 2008 8:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airconditioning (Post 3847579)
Why would Tyranitar leave? Garchomp's departure from OU wouldn't make Tyranitar overpowered, meaning he would have no reason to be banned.

He's probably referring to this guy who posted in Smogon's forums arguing for the ban of Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Salamence from OU...

Wouldn't removing Garchomp from OU kinda mess up the metagame (like all the new whacked additions to UU from Smogon)? Then again, some people say that Garchomp messes up the metagame just by being there...

sims796 August 10th, 2008 8:08 PM

Didn't I just say that people who uses that argument above ac's are childish moooorons?

Personally, I won't fret much if he stays, but I will be glad if he's gone. I can't even use my Raichu because of a frackin BASE 10****2 SPEED! What the hell!

ABYAY August 10th, 2008 8:38 PM

lol Sims, you are awesome...They're moving it to Ubers so your Vileplume can't make it look ashamed, so they gotta get it away from the commonplace of Vileplume...then again, Plume will just follow it to Ubers and terrorize it there.

Chomp has no inspiration on ANY Pokemon in OU, and it's not going to "drag" anything with it to another tier.

Anti August 10th, 2008 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABYAY (Post 3847796)
Chomp has no inspiration on ANY Pokemon in OU

I'd have to disagree with that slightly. Tyranitar and Garchomp actually are related to each other a little since Sand Stream is often used to set up Garchomp's Sand Veil. Does it have any effecton their tier status? No, but other pokemon affect others a lot. I agree with the rest of what you said but just think that should be mentioned at least.

By the way it seems like Garchomp is going to be banned anyways. Most influential Smogoners seem to support its ban (from what I've read, anyways) and there is little support to keep it in OUs, as this thread as well as many others have shown. People fear it so much these days that they overprepare, so this metagame lacking Garchomp will change things around somewhat. I really can't bear the idea of Gengar being the most used pokemon in the game. It's a good pokemon but #1...*shudders*

But yeah, what I'm saying is that this month probably won't be doing any favors for my stance on this and it will probably be banned. I mean, it just seems like everything is poitning to "Garchomp is going to be banned." We can debate it but it seems like this will happen anyways. I'm not trying to discourage a little debate here but I do think it's pretty obvious that it's going to be banned.

Even if this new ladder has no evidence against Garchomp, there was "no evidence" against Wobbuffet either and it's uber right now. So yeah lol

Despite its immense power (the most powerful beats in OUs), I've always kind of seen SD Garchomp as overrated. It takes out pokemon but Garchomp will rarely totally sweep a team (mostly due to how fast and powerful the current metagame is, revenge killing Chomp before it can sweep, and that 50% chance of not being able to switch does him no favors). That might have something to do with my stance on the matter but eh, it's out of my hands so I don't really worry about it ;p Just wanted to say that lol

btw I would not be sad to see Garchomp go. Its increase in usage only seems to make OUs more monotonous. As "noobish" as that stance might sound, seeing garchomp literally every other battle kind of saps the originality out of the game. It's like every other time you run into a restaurant, it's a pizza place. You get tired of seeing pizza all the time.

Even though it's totally irrelevant, I find it funny that Garchomp can't safely switch in on focus sash luvdisc lol.

ABYAY August 11th, 2008 12:12 AM

You won't see Chomp being used against you if you battle someone named ABYAY ^^

And I saw your point about the inspiration thing, but I worded that wrong. It was supposed to say "Garchomp has no inspiration on banning any other Pokemon in OU"...At least that's what I mean to say now. Probably not earlier, but ah well, you win this around.

Walrein August 11th, 2008 3:07 AM

I didn't really see this thye of Garchomp that is so strong in shoddy, I never had such great problems against it. Cloyster can use it's 180 base defense to block it and use Icicle Spear from a decent base 95 attack, as Yache will only weaken the first of five hits thanks to Skill Link. Scarfing Abomasnow can enter in an EQ, remove the Sandstorm and OHKO with Blizzard. Articuno can enter into an EQ as well and use Ice Beam/Blizzard, or, if needed, Ice Shard. Dewgong can mess it with Ice Shard, Icicle Spear and Icy Wind as well. What makes it so powerful? Yache Berry? Just use Occa Berry on Foretress and move it to Ubers as well.

Ársa August 11th, 2008 3:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebyss (Post 3848465)
I didn't really see this thye of Garchomp that is so strong in shoddy, I never had such great problems against it. Cloyster can use it's 180 base defense to block it and use Icicle Spear from a decent base 95 attack, as Yache will only weaken the first of five hits thanks to Skill Link. Scarfing Abomasnow can enter in an EQ, remove the Sandstorm and OHKO with Blizzard. Articuno can enter into an EQ as well and use Ice Beam/Blizzard, or, if needed, Ice Shard. Dewgong can mess it with Ice Shard, Icicle Spear and Icy Wind as well. What makes it so powerful? Yache Berry? Just use Occa Berry on Foretress and move it to Ubers as well.

Cloyster shouldn't be used as an example, it's got a very good base defence, but due to it's weakness to very common attacking types, and it's lack of a reliable recovery move etc, it is outclassed by many other physical walls. Abomasnow cannot take a hit for crap, especially not an SD Earthquake, and is slower than Garchomp anyway. Scarfed Abomasnow is an abomination, you're pulling at straws, no-one in their right mind would use it. The only decent thing Abomasnow has going for it is the sub punching/seeding sets, which would no longer be viable with Choice Scarf.

Articuno is OHKO'd by SD Outrage, and cannot OHKO with Ice Beam due to Yache Berry, same goes for Dewgong, and is also never seen in competitive OU play. We've heard all this before from other people, but seriously, it isn't well thought out. That's like saying 'Oh, Wobbuffet is easy to beat if you run a Garchomp with Toxic! Seriously, creating a moveset to counter 1 pokemon isn't all that smart, and usually backfires far more often than not.

~T_S

Walrein August 11th, 2008 3:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortured_Soul (Post 3848487)
Cloyster shouldn't be used as an example, it's got a very good base defence, but due to it's weakness to very common attacking types, and it's lack of a reliable recovery move etc, it is outclassed by many other physical walls. Abomasnow cannot take a hit for crap, especially not an SD Earthquake, and is slower than Garchomp anyway. Scarfed Abomasnow is an abomination, you're pulling at straws, no-one in their right mind would use it. The only decent thing Abomasnow has going for it is the sub punching/seeding sets, which would no longer be viable with Choice Scarf.

Articuno is OHKO'd by SD Outrage, and cannot OHKO with Ice Beam due to Yache Berry, same goes for Dewgong, and is also never seen in competitive OU play. We've heard all this before from other people, but seriously, it isn't well thought out. That's like saying 'Oh, Wobbuffet is easy to beat if you run a Garchomp with Toxic! Seriously, creating a moveset to counter 1 pokemon isn't all that smart, and usually backfires far more often than not.

~T_S

Abomasnow can't take a hit it resists? Articuno and Dewgong OHKOed so easily? Iv'e never seen that on shoddy.
And yes, I agree that Garchomp is ugly, but so is Tyranitar and it's still a pest.

Ársa August 11th, 2008 3:48 AM

It is Ice/Grass. It doesn't resist Earthquake.

Standard Abomasnow is 2HKO'd by SD Earthquake, but a SD Dragon Claw OHKO's, and as I said, Scarf Abomasnow is retarded. Besides, many Garchomp run Fire Fang/Blast for Bronzong. Articuno is a special tank, taking a +2 120 power STAB attack from a Base 135 attack stat is nothing to sneeze at, and Yache Berry stops Articuno from KO'ing. Dewgong is rarely seen in UU, and there are so many better pokemon in OU that do the job far better, and is also KO'd by Garchomp before it can KO, thanks to Yache.

Tyranitar has 100% counters. Agreed it has a wide variety of sets, but once that set is found out, it's easier than Garchomp to kill. For starters, most common sets don't run Chople Berry (the Tyranitar equivalent of Yache), and Tyranitar doesn't have Sand Veil. It's also weak to a more common attack type in fighting, and is hit from it's weaker physical side. Garchomp is more bulky than Swampert, so it isn't exactly easy to take down. (Swampert also has a 4x weakness, but people aren't as worried about that are they?)

~T_S

Spoiler:
I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP COMPARING GARCHOMP TO TYRANITAR/SALAMENCE!

Walrein August 11th, 2008 3:51 AM

It does resist Ground, it's a Grass-type. Ice-types aren't weak to Ground, the opposite is true.
This whole issue is really reminding me Dugtrio in Advance. I just kept killing them one by one even thought most agreed of it to be so powerful. That's maybe because Ice and Water are two of my favorite types, or because most of my teams don't even carry a Ground weakness.

sims796 August 11th, 2008 4:14 AM

Or you were fighting retards.

Coming up with half assed solutions won't make Chomp seem any weaker. As we said, it's bulky enough that Ice moves won't OHKO, and that's without a Yache Berry. We even did damage calcs. Seriously, yu said Cloyster & Dewgong? Just because their ice types does mean crap. They cannot survive a damn thing. Dewgong is slow & fragile. Cloyster is just too weak. Both will fall from an unboosted attack. Unless your opponent is dumb enough to switch Chomp into an Ice Beam, don't bring up weak UUs as a solution. Especially my favorites.
EDIT: Second, everything phears Plume. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Ársa August 11th, 2008 4:20 AM

Vileplume doesn't fear Vileplume...it fears LUVDISC!

But finally, someone else has said what I've been trying to. Creating sets to counter a single pokemon is overcentralization, which we are trying to avoid...

~T_S

Walrein August 11th, 2008 4:29 AM

Well then, either a UBL rating will be made or Garchomp is joining Mewtwo...

sims796 August 11th, 2008 4:31 AM

Of course, Plume is allergic to Heart Scale.

But lets pretend Cloyster beats Chomp *giggle*. Well, how does it (& FRACKIN DEWGONG) stack up in the rest of the OU metagame? Should every team use those two just to beat Chomp? As TS said, overwhatchamacallit.


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