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Technically Chomp would have the same top weakness to Mence, but that's not if you factor in things like Stealth Rock, and a SandStorm, and other types of damage/immunities. (Though I suppose Rock does bring down Mence too... I've just never had contact with my Mence from it seems. o-o) Either way, I've said what I could. Now to sleep =D
Thank You all for taking interest, please continue. *flies away on hammer* |
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How can you even begin to compare Garchomp to Milotic? What can Milotic do outside of supporting the team with Light Screen, inducing sleep and possibly scoring a surprise KO with Mirror Coat? Not much, really. However Garchomp is a whole different matter. Garchomp has an excellent combination of STAB moves along with defensive capabilities that rival Swampert's and a massive Attack stat combined with good Speed and Swords Dance and arguably one of the best traits in the game. Just pair it up with a Tyranitar or Hippowdon and your "counters" will suddenly only succeed at stopping Chomp 80% of the time. Throw in a Yache Berry and you'll need not one, but two fast Ice attackers to take it down, or would you perhaps prefer a Sand Veil + Brightpowder combo giving it a 28% evasion boost in the sand? After just one Swords Dance (which is extremely easy to set up with Garchomp's good defenses and excellent resistances) Garchomp can one-hit KO a large amount of OUs and the majority of those that aren't one-hit KO'd will die to the second hit and won't be able to OHKO it.
I have first-hand experience of how devastating Garchomp can be. I used to run a rather bad offensive team in Shoddy once and Garchomp alone has won me many matches with it. In most battles, Garchomp took down at least two Pokémon before going down. I ran a Jolly Life Orb Garchomp with Swords Dance and it's just ridiculous how many things get OHKOd after a Swords Dance. Gliscor was often the initial switch-in on my Garchomp and it quickly died to a Swords Dance Outrage. Outrage after just one Swords Dance (provided that Garchomp has Life Orb) is nearly a guaranteed 2-hit KO (49.11% - 57.99% damage) on a +Def 252 / 252 HP/Defense Bronzong. Swampert and Cresselia with the same EV spread take 97.77% - 115.10% and 73.42% - 86.26%. Vaporeon doesn't even stand a chance to survive the move. We're talking about some serious power here. A well-played Garchomp will never go down without taking at least two other Pokémon with it. (or severely hurting them so that they are practically useless) There is no Pokémon that can switch in on Garchomp without risking to lose a huge chunk of its HP and Yache Berry and Sand Veil make any counters unreliable at best. I've rarely had trouble dealing with Garchomp, but that's only because most people don't know how to use it, and even in the hands of these clueless people, Chomp has usually taken at least one of my Pokémon down with it. However, after having used one myself, I became convinced that the thing belongs in Ubers. Even a complete moron can wreak havoc with Garchomp; now imagine that force in the hands of someone who can actually use it. Toxic Spikes is probably the best "counter" to Garchomp and that doesn't really say much considering Garchomp can come in and set up on any Toxic Spiker before they can get their Toxic Spikes on the field and even then, Spinners do exist. (which aren't nearly as common as they used to be, but then again, the use of Toxic Spikes has also been declining after the Tentacruel hype ended) Also, keep in mind that just because there's a Garchomp-less test ladder doesn't mean it'll necessarily be banned. The people who have played on it will vote on whether or not they prefer the metagame as it is now or a Garchomp-less one. The countless Garchomp debates have accomplished nothing so I don't see why it'd be a bad idea to actually try a Garchomp-free metagame. How could we possibly know whether or not a metagame without Garchomp is less centralized unless we actually try it out? |
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And why does Cloyster need to be OU to counter Garchomp (though I'm really not too sure on its ability to counter Chomp)? You can use UU things in OU, y'know. ._. |
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It's just a separate test ladder to test out the current meta-game without Garchomp around to see how it goes and at the end of that they will decide if the meta-game without garchomp is somewhat better. so nothing is offical yet. Anything could happen.
I can't wait when they test out the Latios and other few ubers... |
Just looking at its base stats, you can see how Garchomp compares to some Ubers. That being said, I really would be ok with it being OU if not for the most annoying ability in the world: Sand Veil. Without it, Chomp is still an amazing physical sweeper who would still dominate OU play. But factor in all moves against him have only an 80% chance to hit, at best. A couple of misses and Garchomp will literally *chomp* you and your entire team. I personally think Garchomp is very over-powered and should be moved to Ubers.
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I agree simply because I'm tired of seeing him. But that can't be the only reason to kick him out, or Blissey would be gone too. Seriously, he does have the stats, ability, and movepool to be too large of a threat in the OU tier. People just abuse him nowadays.
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I hate Garchomp in every possible way. it's so ugly, way to strong for the metagame, and is so annoying. I would looooooove to see at least 2 maches in a row without him.
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to be honest quad weakness for an uber is fail. garchomp is very easy to beat even it its yache berry. the most effective way of beating it is using a tank/wall that can lower it to about 1/2 health, so that your sweeper can kill it regardless of yache berry. for the scarf version just use a tank with ice beam like mesprit, for band/chainchomp use a pokemon like weavile/mamoswine.
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Garchomp has limbo'd Ubers for so long...I've never used it, or even Heracross, or heck, even Bronzong! Don't ask...I'm just me. ^^
Anyway, Garchomp is an absolute terror in the OU metagame, and it usually kills something, or dang, even a whole team. CBer: Excellent Scarf Revenge Killer: Excellent SDer: Excellent and sweeps everything sometimes BulkyChomp (Hey, it has a good typing and better base defenses than Swampert): Your call Garchomp has enough in each stat to pose a threat in nearly every category aside from special attacking, and there's Chain Chomp for that. The only thing ultimately preventing it from thrashing the metagame is its 102 base speed, which is still killer. Its defenses make it quick and powerful, and 350+ HP without EVs isn't something to just sneeze at and walk away, coupled with around 200 sp.def without EVs. It has caused the metagame to run certain moves due to its massive threat level to the metagame. Countering Garchomp isn't that easy. Even Smogon says that there isn't really a counter for Garchomp in the Counters section, but gives suggestions to halt its sweep. Cresselia can set up reflect, but come in on a CB Outrage, and your Chomp counter is gone. Weavile can outspeed and revenge Garchomp with CB Ice Shard, but 2 things hinder that, and they are Sand Veil and the presence of Yache Berry. As for my opinion, I'm unconcerned on where it goes. I don't use it, and it would only benefit me at that point. I say it's Uber material, probably just over the line of OU, but I couldn't say for sure. Now for counter sayings. @lilsparks: Okay, so let's say you bring in your wall, aka Milotic while Garchomp Swords Dances. EQ is a 2HKO while your Ice Beam will fail due to Yache Berry. Cresselia can't do damage quick enough, and SD Outrage is a 2HKO while Yache saves the dragon. Who else are you going to implement in this situation? |
i agree with what you say but moving garchomp to uber would only make bring up another pokemon that people would think was unfair (much like dragonite was in RBY XD)
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yes rayquaza does have a a quad weakness but his stats surpass garchomp's to make up for that. iirc swampert/mesprit can all live a single SD dragon claw/eq
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A lot of people are saying that Garchomp shouldn't be an uber because he will stink in ubers. That's a pretty dumb arguement. Ubers is supposed to be very unbalanced, its a banlist for OU. Like look at Manaphy, no one uses him in ubers due to its pitiful stats compared to the rest, but Manaphy would be a beast in OU, with a mighty 100 base sp.atk+Surf+Tail Glow+Rain+STAB. Also don't forget hydration, which makes him invulnerable to any status condition in the rain.
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Exactly, and ubers is mainly unbalanced because it's the only way that OU stays balanced. Garchomp is getting to be so common, with so few weaknesses and the ability to completely destroy people, he's disbalancing the metagame a little bit.
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As for the ban, I don't care for Garchomp much. It's probably because I don't battle enough (and therefore don't see him much), but he doesn't really scare me. :/ |
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If it comes down to stats making up for it, the question'd be if Chomp's bulkyness, Speed, and offensive might is enough to make the threshold for too broken for OU. Quote:
That's easy? |
We're in different boats about Garchomp sighting AC: I see one every game I play pretty much, and it is one of the only reasons why I run Ice Beam + Reflect on Cressy (And DDMence/Nite). However, we're on the same general concept that we don't care where it's placed.
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The idea that a ban on Garchomp would lead to more bannings is a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope:
"The slippery slope fallacy is also known as the 'unjustified projection.' The argument is made that a first step will inevitably lead to another, usually undesirable, final outcome. If there is inadequate evidence that this outcome will follow, beware-you are facing a slippery slope fallacy. Taking an argument all the way to the end is often a great way to determine the argument’s validity. Demand evidence that one outcome necessarily follows from the first step. We don’t know that a ban on handguns will lead to a ban on hunting rifles and other weapons. We can’t say that legalizing abortion will lead to murdering the old and the physically and mentally handicapped. What evidence supports these outcomes? Each argument rushes downhill to a conclusion that is not supported by valid evidence. The slippery slope argument is tricky because it relies on future events, and only future events will verify or refute the prediction. Arguments that project unjustifiably are also simplistic because they ignore the dissimilarities between first and last steps, and because they ignore the complexity of developments in any long chain of events." - 2001, Oregonians of Rationality The idea that Salamence is threatened is not even part of why Garchomp should or should not be banned. There is nothing that links the two to where if one is listed as an Uber, so shall all of these. No matter what is said, Garchomp will always offer something different than any other poke; Same goes for Salamence or any other. All I'm trying to show is that that is not a valid defense for keeping Garchomp around. That if, 'Garchomp is made an Uber, others will follow! We might as well call UU the new OU!' There would have to be debates for each and every one in question. |
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Let's say that if Garchomp is banned, that Salamence would take its place as an overpowered powerhouse, and be up next for a ban. That would be impossible, as Garchomp isn't the only check to that Pokemon. There are other Pokemon that can counter/ kill Salamence, such as Cresselia, Suicune, Weavile, or Swampert (don't fight me on these, I'm kinda making this up. Just pretend that these Pokemon actually can counter Sally, because I know there are a number of others that can.)- Garchomp's ban wouldn't affect those Pokemon's ability to defeat Salamence, therefore, Salamence would stay in check. This is the same for almost all other Pokemon- Garchomp may prove as a check to a few of those Pokemon, but there are others that check those Pokemon as well. Quote:
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Choice Scarf Cresselia = Garchomp counter. Oh what now! (If you take that seriously I will do everything in my power to run you out of this thread lol :P) To its credit it does beat the uncounterable set :P
I really wish I had a link to MoP's post awhile back about this but I'm too lazy to search Smogon. Garchomp will probably be banned anyways. It's really easy to play around and even easier to revenge kill though. I compared it to SD FO Cross and all I ever get is "Garchomp is a lot faster and half the time he can switch out of Outrage." Interesting, because all of the time Heracross can switch out and decimate every slow wall in the game. Garchomp is either trapped and revenge killed, or its sweep is temporarily stopped (and at around 50% health it's a lot harder to switch in). Yeah SD FO cross dies quicker and is easily revenge killed, but Garchomp is easy to revenge kill. Its yache berry will probably be gone, so feel free to ice shard it to hell. About every choice scarfer in the game outspeeds it can can KO it (assuming that your counter wore it down with an Ice Beam to break its berry before biting the dust to Outrage). what I'm saying is that Garchomp has the ability to pretty much destroy every slow wall in the game with the uncounterable YacheOutrage chomp. However, various revenge killers can stop it from sweeping teams. Also, remember that the metagame is highly offensive. Garchomp can take a beating repeatedly switching in on certain pokemon (for example, it is known to do great against SDluke, but if you switch in on LO Close Combat half of your health is gone,and all of a sudden you aren't uncounterable). Garchomp is very bulky, but even a lot of walls can't stand up to sweeping powerhouses that exist these days. Quite frankly, I prefer both CBchomp and Scarfchomp to most any variant of SDchomp. BTW special mention goes out to Bronzong, who can survive one SD Fire Fang and sleep or blow up on Garchomp. Also, with most teams being offensive these days, the idea of countering something isn't as important as it used to be. Honestly though I would not be sad to see it go. It is the most powerful pokemon in OUs and it is on more than 1/3 of teams. Peopole are so paranoid about it and a lot of people overprepare. That is "over centralization," so maybe it should be banned. I just don't think that SDchomp is THAT much better than other fearsome sweepers like Salamence, Lucario, and Gyarados. BTW I expect Garchomp to be banned after this month's ladder without Garchomp is over. Usually a counter and something to revenge kill it as a safety net works just fine, but I guess other people don't feel that way. I mean that's what I did with the presidents team and it worked just fine. Yeah that's pretty much what I think. I know you all disagree but eh, just wanted to share my thoughts :P BTW I haven't read through all of this thread, but if anybody is using the "Cress comes in to counter SDchomp and eats CB Outrage and dies in two hits so there, no counters" argument, you aren't thinking. Yeah CBchomp beats cresselia, but CBchomp isn't the reason people want garchomp uber. Not only that, but Garchomp isn't the only pokemon wherte one pokemon can't counter all of its sets. Take Lucario for example. Yeah Gliscor and weezing beat up SDluke, but if it's specsluke, they die. Just to say that in case somebody has or somebody wants to say that. EDIT: For the recrod I'm not saying SD FO cross is the threat Garchomp is. It's the best analogy I could come up with lol I do think Garchomp should be banned because it really affects peoples' teams these days. I don't think it SHOULD though, which is more what I'm trying to say I'm thinking. lol it's only a matter of time before that backlash comes :( |
I haven't been more insulted to read the American language in quite some time. The biggest problem is that people are LITERALLY IGNORING ALL POST that counters them. They say, "I read that Garchomp's counters can't stop him, but he has counters!", or "I know Garchomp's Ice weakness doesn't stop him AT ALL, but Garchomp has an Ice weakness"! Seriously, are you guys just plain idiots, or are you just illiterate?
I am also at an impass at Chomp being uber. I like Chomp, and don't feel him that broken, but their is overwhelming evidence for him being uber, and moronic post for him not. And SmashGood, why aren't you on my friendslist yet? Seriously, I'll sum up that post for you. Quote:
EDIT:AHA, ANTI BEAT MEH |
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