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Garchomp Tier Discussion / Debate
Note: I made this as I felt that the other topic in S&M was misrepresenting the situation regarding the Smogon suspect test ladder. I also wanted a topic specifically to deal with Garchomp since the other topic seems to be veering off in that direction.
Please note: If you do not have an adequate understanding of the topic at hand, I suggest you read more on it and gain more experience. Posts listing illogical reasons will be treated as spam and action will be taken. I would prefer if you made an effort to use correct grammar and sentence structure in this discussion. Garchomp Tier Discussion / DebateGarchomp, the dominant force of the metagame, discussion & debate.http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfa/dpmfa445.png Base Stats & Typinghttp://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/dpmfb/dpmfb445.png Garchomphttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/szewei1/Shiny%20Gold%20Walkthrough/Misc%20Sprites/Ground.png/http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/szewei1/Shiny%20Gold%20Walkthrough/Misc%20Sprites/Dragon.png→ Base Stats: 108 HP / 130 Attack / 95 Defence / 80 Special Attack / 85 Special Defence / 102 Speed → Ability: Sand Veil (Evasion increases by 20% in a Sandstorm) From these stats we can see that Garchomp has a great typing boasting only two weaknesses, Dragon and Ice, the former being a 2x weakness and the latter being a 4x weakness. Garchomp has a resistance to Rock and Fire, and an immunity to Electric These two resistances and Garchomp's subsequent neutralities to other attacks, allow it to switchin into resisted attacks such as Stone Edge and Fire Blast, giving it many opportunities to set up. Garchomp also is relatively bulky boasting 108 HP / 95 Def / 85 SpD, giving it extra security against opposing attackers which may try to stop a sweep. To illustrate Garchomp's bulkiness, for an UnSTABed Ice Beam to OHKO it, it would require a special attack stat of at least 269, which for many walls requires a hefty investment in Special Attack. Garchomp also gains the ability Sand Veil, which provides 20% evasion in Sandstorm. This affects a lot of battles, in which moves miss at a crucial moment. As Garchomp has no other ability, some players believe that it should be banned on this basis alone. → What makes Garchomp an offensive force? Garchomp boasts an impressive 130 Attack. Garchomp also boasts two powerful attacks - Outrage and Earthquake, both of them getting STAB bonuses which greatly increases their power. Outrage and Earthquake are only resisted by three Pokémon - Bronzong, Skarmory and Shedinja - which Garchomp can cover with the addition of Fire Fang or Fire Blast. These three moves constitute the basic Garchomp moveset which will be examined in greater detail later. Garchomp also has a unique speed base (i.e. no other pokemon has the same speed stat except Garchomp), which is 2 points higher than the base 100 Speed mark, and higher than the majority of Pokémon. This makes Garchomp a force to contend with, with its speed contributing greatly to its sweeps. Common MovesetsThis section will show the main sets of Garchomp, and their strengths.First up, Garchomp @ Yache Berry Jolly, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP ` Swords Dance ` Outrage ` Earthquake ` Fire Fang The notorious SDYacheChomp, a Garchomp that uses Swords Dance to boost its attack to massive levels, and proceeding to sweep. Yache Berry weakens Ice Attacks, letting Garchomp survive the majority of them and dispose of its counter or revenge-killer. Garchomp's other weakness, Dragon is not a factor as Garchomp is faster than all non-Scarfed Dragons in the standard metagame, KOing them with a supereffective Outrage of its own. Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang are unresisted by anything in the game (yes, even Wondertomb). With Swords Dance, this Garchomp one or two hit KOs everything in the standard metagame with either of its moves. As stated above, this set is dangerous as it can dispose of its counter or revenge-killer easily, having a great chance of nabbing a KO in a battle. → Counters:
Almost all these supposed counters get done in by Yache Berry, except Bronzong and Skarmory, the former needing Explosion to stop Garchomp, the latter only capable of Whirlwinding Garchomp out of the field. --- Garchomp @ Choice Band Jolly, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP ` Outrage ` Earthquake ` Fire Fang / Fire Blast ` Stone Edge / Dragon Claw Choice Band Garchomp sacrifices the protection of Yache Berry and the boost from Swords Dance, and instead opts for more initial power. This Garchomp can 2HKO everything in the game, bar Steel types and Shedinja, with its Choice Banded Outrage. The other moves serve to add coverage to aid Garchomp in a sweep. Fire Fang and Earthquake likewise demolish Steel types, the latter also being a STAB move adding to Garchomp's destructive arsenal. → Counters:
Prediction All the counters to the Swords Dancer are done in by the Choice Bander. Prediction is probably the only way to insure yourself against a Choice Band Garchomp. Choice Band Garchomp, like some other notable Choice Banders, does not have an outright counter and needs to be predicted and appropriately outplayed. The difference is, Garchomp has a better typing, speed and a great move in Outrage, boasting immense power while being resisted only by Steel-types. --- Garchomp @ Choice Scarf Adamant, 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP ` Outrage ` Earthquake ` Fire Blast ` Toxic / Dragon Claw / Stone Edge While Choice Scarf Garchomp does not pose a potent offensive threat, it still is a dangerous variant of Garchomp, which functions mainly as a revenge-killer. Garchomp still has deadly weapons in Outrage and Earthquake, and its high speed coupled with Choice Scarf gives it a surprising amount of speed, capable of downing most of its revenge-killers if they do not pack a priority move to deal with Garchomp. Toxic wears down bulky walls like Hippowdon and Gliscor if they try to stop Garchomp, the ever increasing Toxic damage cripples them and severely hinders their walling ability. → Counters:
Overcentralization?It has been argued, that Garchomp with its presence, restricts the amount of Pokémon choices, and decreases the pool of usable Pokémon, a phenomenon known as centralization. Any metagame invariably will have some form of centralization due to people using the best, but too much leads to a metagame centered around the best itself and its counters. Garchomp usage relative to the total usage of Pokémon has been increasing, which some may call overcentralization. From the Smogon server statistics:
If numbers are confusing, then take a look at these statistics from Smogon member X-Act: Probabilities that these Pokémon would be in either or both teams in a Standard Battle: Code:
Big thanks to BeachBoy for the formatting =) |
Alright, since the other topic was getting out of hand and the original poster had misunderstood the purpose of the test ladder and the topic turned into a Garchomp debate, I've now closed it. Since I'm not online all that much and Dark_Azelf is absent, there was no one there to stop the topic from turning into pure spam so I've chosen not to infract anyone in the previous topic. However, keep in mind that I will be keeping a close eye on this one. All posts that do not contribute to the topic will be infracted without warning.
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Ah, I made one mistake when I was formatting, didn't scratch out the counters list for Choice Band Garchomp. <<; so, ignore that.
Now to Garchomp, personally, I believe it's uber. It's usage is off the charts, and it's crawling everywhere. Teams have to prepare for this thing like never before, stuffing steels, bulk, and pure revenge kill speed. And most of the time, Garchomp takes at least one to two Pokémon down, it's pretty much a given at this point. It's scene in the OU metagame has severely depleted the diversity it can achieve. You want to use so-so, but due to Garchomp's appearance almost on every team, you must use a different so-so. Garchomp may not have excellent jaw dropping speed, but it has it's own tier, with that 102. It has a fantastic ability, one that could argue to be the best in the game. (Brightpowder Garchomp days *shudder*) and it's ability to rip everything in half with Choice Band is divine. Also having a 600 BST is nothing to laugh at either, it's still quite bulky and can take a hit. Late game, Garchomp obliterates opposing teams, people build their whole teams to eliminate Garchomp's problematic Pokémon, and this beast simply thrives late game. It's made so many comebacks for me in the past it's insane. A metagame without Garchomp... walls surely have one less dominate threat to worry about. And in my eyes it makes the game more... er, how should I put this, it boosts the competitive level of the game. People can't slap on Garchomp and shred people to bits anymore and I think that will be a boost. (Kinda hard to explain I guess, hope people understand where I'm coming from) Maybe I'm wrong in this regard. *shrug* It's been in our metagame for a year, I'm sick of it at this point, and don't think I'm being bias here, I actually love the shark and I've abused it's power. I'll just be glad to see it go, to be honest. Just... we've had this debate for what? Four to five months? It's about time we take a side already. PC banned Garchomp for a month, and the results? Pointless. We really didn't get enough from it. That's not saying how much the metagame changed, it's we didn't issue a ban at the proper time. (Back when we didn't have a server, when we got a server, the Garchomp ban had three days left) Also, on the "take one domino, another goes." I only think Garchomp and D-S will get the boot. (But Deoxys is another topic) Lucario and others usage will climb, sure, but their power won't necessarily change. And they're not up to the caliber of this beast, anyway. And with Garchomp out, walls should get a boost having to worry less about that shark. And now I'm just starting to ramble, I think it's uber, point blank. Whether my reasoning is wrong or not, my stance won't really change. Well, that's my take on the matter, and now I'm about to go on a long leave from PC. So if anyone wants to argue my points, I won't be here to counter. (lame pun) XD Have a nice day everyone, and hope that was on topic enough, I'll dive into the shifts later on in the month? (?) XD |
i think that Garchomp being considered a Uber is complete over-exaggeration. My jolteon with its Sp. Atk around 310~325 has taken out a Garchomp before supprisingly. basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit. cause more than likely no one will bother to max out the HP. so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp. thats my opinion.
Garchomp at Max stat 420/394/317/284/295/333 (these r individual stats at their Max not as whole) Weavile can easily take out a DefChomp with Ice Punch Min- Avg- Max 387- 421.64- 455 It's super effective! Weavile receives STAB (1.5× damage) for this attack* Atk against Def stat. others attacks wil be given later. |
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I have a feeling the "It dies to an Ice attack" arguament is going to appear a lot in this thread... |
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Alakazam can't switch in on Garchomp, btw. His defenses are that of paper. ;) |
I'm sorry, but that was a a very fail post richdevil...Now I'll prove why.
"basically a STAB Ice move can take it out in one hit" ...okay, now switch in your Ice Pokemon on any of its moves and expect to live twice...or if it's Weavile, Garchomp can...you know, switch? Dang, it can even have Yache Berry, ruining Ice Punch while your Garchomp "counter" is dead. "so Weavile, Alakazam, Porygon Z can easily take care of Garchomp" Too bad the liklihood of these Pokemon living through an Outrage is the likeliness of an Aggron losing to Magikarp. Pory-Z is slower than Garchomp, thus that is fully void...Garchomp could have a Choice Scarf, so your Ice Punch Weavile argument is null...not to mention again, Yache Berry. Consider more Competitive Battle-fu. Oh yeah, a note to future "opinions": If you say that Garchomp easily dies to an ice attack, you will be thrown into a grinder with explosives. Now...my personal opinion of Garchomp and debate: Garchomp is a complete menace to the OU metagame, 2HK...I don't need to repeat what was said above. Basically, it kills everything, and counters can't switch in on it. Sure, some people might say "Stall out Life Orb with prediction and switches" Um...no. You can't switch 10 times correctly, and it can just Swords Dance on those switches. "It dies to an ice attack" argument is 100% null. Yache Berry saves it, and the increasing common use of it is so obvious. "Weavile kills it with Ice Punch" argument is null for 3 reasons: Yache Berry saves from Ice Shard, as may Ice Punch. Also, Weavile can't come in on Garchomp because that's like playing a game of Minesweeper with the mines set to 999 and winning... If you lose, then you've predicted wrong (Note: More common than what you think.) Lastly, the presence of Choice Scarf makes Ice Punch attempts also fail. "Sturdy users of Ice Beam kill it" 2 reasons this is null: Those switch-ins are potentially 2HKO'd as Yache saves the Chomp. Also, you need 269 sp.atk EVs to guarantee a OHKO on a non-yacheChomp with non-STAB Ice Beam. That usually requires sp.atk investment, in which people can't afford to pack enough defense to take its hits. Although Garchomp is an extreme threat, it can be outplayed to an extent. The Swords Dance set has to choose either Outrage or Dragon Claw as STAB...Dragon Claw misses crucial 2HKOs on things such as Cresselia (Reflect versions really stall it), whereas Outrage puts it in an easy situation to be revenge killed. Should it not run a fire move, then Skarmory can stand in its way, or even Bronzong, which neither can't do much back except phaze or status, respectively. Bronzong CAN run HP Ice though or use Explosion, fortunately...however, either option cuts into it and makes it less effective. As for counters...There really isn't much in the game that can take an SD Outrage or Quake. Skarm can, but dies to a fire move. One of our awesome battlers Anti-Pop (if you don't know him, get to know him now.) constructed this, however, to deal with pretty much any version of Chomp in today's Metagame. Another thing I should mention is the use of Sand Veil. It can get in the way and ruin a chance to KO chomp making Ice Beam have the accuracy of Stone Edge. This miss sometimes comes at a crucial moment in where KOing chomp will ensure a victory or protecting from a loss...well, don't a lot of games come to this line of hit and miss? (Stone Edge from T-Tar hit or miss, <100% moves being used at a particular time, etc.) [email protected] Scarf Bold OR Modest 252sp.atk/116spd/140Def OR 236sp.atk/116spd/156HP (Use first nature and set or 2nd nature and set.) Ice Beam Psychic Reflect/Light Screen/Lunar Dance Thunder Wave/Toxic/Lunar Dance (PM Anti or myself for details on this. Moveset idea goes to Anti) However, running this JUST to counter Garchomp can borderline Overcentrilization, although it counters more than just that. Now...back on topic. Garchomp is the most menacing Pokemon in the metagame. It can be very difficult to outplay, and usually you won't know how to counter it until you know its set. The presence of Yache Berry makes it very difficult to revenge kill without a very powerful move at times, but at this point it does lack a little bit of "POW" to its attacks, throwing some potential OHKOs to 2HKOs and 2HKOs to 3HKOs, although very rare. I've given my full analysis. My decision on where it goes is as always, "Unconcerned." If it goes to Ubers, I will adapt. If it stays OU, that's okay. I don't use Garchomp anyway. |
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And how the hell does Alakazam counter Garchomp? ._.; Garchomp will not die to an Ice Attack the first time. Nothing can safely switch into Garchomp, besides a Steel Pokemon when it's locked into an outrage. I support it being uber. The only counter I can think of for Garchomp is another Garchomp. x_x It's stats act like Wobbuffet in a way. It almost guarantees the KO of one Pokemon, and possibly even more. :x I support it being uber because BeachBoy's Garchomp Outrage swept me and attacked me 5 times in a row while it was still confused... on 12 freaking HP. *shot* XD In other words, uberify that chomp. >:( Edit: Wow. ABYAY beat me... by 10 minutes. What have I been doing all this time? x_x |
I think chomp should be uber. 102 base speed means it can outspeed all base 100, he has 130 base attack, also with access to swords dance and outrage, its just a slightly lesser Rayquaza. Don't forget about sand veil, which under a sandstorm makes this thing even more harder to hit.
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it won't make much difference for me if garchomp becomes uber. i never used the shark dragon thing and if it becomes uber i guess i never will get to use it in competitive battles.
i think people are over reacting to garchomp. the metagame has always been like this revolving around a few selected OU's so I don't see why people are all upset that everybody's using garchomp. what's the percentage of teams with blissey in advanced gen before cresselia and bronzong were around? probably about the same if not higher. the entire OU meta game IS overcentralization and if people are tired of it, just start playing UU. people say they're tired of see garchomp, but they're not tired of seeing blissey, gyarados, salamence, ttar, gengar who have been around since previous generations? garchomp often times can take down 1 pokemon easily in a game, but i wouldn't expect anything less from one of the best sweepers in the game. just because garchomp got an easy KO doesn't mean you lost the game. i can't remember how many times choice scarf users get an easy KO on the unsuspecting opponent, yet that one kill doesn't guarantee a win or anything. it's kind of something i thought people would have learned to deal with by now if it happens. just try to get the revenge kill, even the score, and go from there. |
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Alright, just to add in a little more enforcement here:
If anyone, and I mean anyone posts "lol it dies to ice attacks noobs" in this thread as an argument why it shouldn't be uber, prepare to face the consequences. Smarties, Dark_Azelf (when he returns from vacation) and I will not tolerate these comments which will be treated as SPAM and infracted properly. |
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Just to note: CB Weavile can revenge CBChomp and YacheChomp if either are stuck on Outrage (and ScarfChomp, if it's packing Ice Shard for whatever reason). To my knowledge, a Jolly CB Ice Punch will OHKO Chomp through Yache.
Of course, the chance of Weavile switching in safely to Chomp is practically nil and the use of Outrage is the necessity for a revenge-kill... which is the main issue. :P I'll say more when it's not midnight or so on my side. |
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You can say whatever you want about Garchomp's immense attacking power and "uncounterability"...based on those I think Garchomp would be perfectly fine in the OU tier. But the fact is his ability can be a match-deciding factor, which is just not fair. My friend, a Chomp-user, has gotten himself out of many sticky situations with Sand Veil. And these were definitely battles that he had no right winning. It's basically a hax ability, and it makes him that much harder to take out. Chompy, it's time to go to Ubers.
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I noticed a few people mentioning how Garchomp's stardom becoming pretty much out of control makes you have to prepare for it even more. Wait...what? I don't see the logic behind that. So if Infernape rises to the top in usage and easily surpasses everything else, will we carry around Swampert and Tentacurel, and Scarfchomp just to be sure? Uh, no. Usage doesn't force you to go to extreme measures to eliminate something.
My main beef with the Garchomp is uber argument is the no counters part of it. "No counters" is awfully misleading considering you actually can counter it. Choice Specs Tangrowth works (and it's a good set outside of countering Garchomp and Gyarados, believe me). But really, since when did not having any counters mean you're uber? IMO that doesn't even matter that much though. The current state of the metagame is heavy offense, and it's quite tough to disagree with that. A lot of teams don't even try to counter everything, or anything at all for that matter. Revenge killing might not be as reliable as countering something, but it is one of the most popular methods of protecting your team from an opponent's these days, and for a good reason. It's not like not having a counter for something means you're automatically weak to it and you're going to get swept. Yeah a team of Mamoswine, Weavile, and Scarfchomp might not have a Garchomp counter, but there's no way it's going to get swept by Garchomp. Say it is unreliable all you want, but husk and ipl both got to number one with this style of play. How many stall teams that try to counter things like Garchomp do you see at the top of the leaderboard? For its hyped speed tier, Garchomp gets revenge killer by quite a lot. Let's not forget that unlike other sweepers, Garchomp has a 50% chance of being locked into outrage a third turn, sealing its fate. If you send in something fragile to get killed by Outrage, there is a 100% chance Garchomp is staying in to deal with a revenge killer. Garchomp is an incredibly potent force, but being easily revenge killed prevents it from sweeping teams, especially given the current conditions of today's fast-paced and hard-hitting metagame. Personally I've found CBchomp more effective than YacheChomp. It doesn't have to set up to hit hard. For the record, I don't actually care if it gets banned since I don't use it a whole lot and considering I've never been as scared of YacheChomp as others have been, it staying in OUs would be fine with me too. So basically I don't care. However, I do believe it should stay in the OU tier quite firmly. I wouldn't be devastated if it was banned though, especially since this would finally stop. lol I don't see why people are so mad about Sand Veil on Garchomp when other pokemon have the ability too. Yeah, Garchomp can make use of it better than other pokemon, but that doesn't mean other pokemon can't make use of it. also, seeing as I've seen some moans and groans about Brightpowder Garchomp in this thread, I guess that item isn't banned. Spectacular! Now we can put that item on any pokemon we please and Thunderbolt "could" miss that Gyarados and cost you the game. What I'm saying is that hax is a part of the game. If Heracross's Stone Edge crits your Gliscor, yeah, you're in a lot of trouble (especially wioth SDluke behind it or something). Luck is a part of the game - skill isn't everything and that will never change. You could call it "hax" that your gyarados got minimum damage on something when it otherwise would have OHKOed, but instead Gyarados gets hit back with Thunderbolt. It's not like Sand Veil is the only way hax can destroy you or that Garchomp is the only pokemon that can abuse such luck. Also, I've seen a lot of "Garchomp is uncounterable" or "Garchomp is used a ton now" or "Garchomp has one of the strongest Earthqaukes in the game and great power and coverage on its STAB moves." Still, I haven't seen a whole lot of WHY that makes Garchomp uber. Interesting stats indeed, but I haven't seen much explanation as to why that makes Garchomp uber. |
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Specs Tangrowth gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and takes a hefty load from SD Outrage, another 2HKO too, and requires Specs to even OHKO Garchomp, which comes with a lot of limitations.
Revenge-killing is not a viable strategy since Garchomp has already done its damage by then, and as pointed out is blocked by Yache Berry. If Infernape was basically used as much as Garchomp, its counters would rise but it would be hindered by its limitations - poor defenses and not so great typing, saving it from being banned. It was the same issue with Blissey / Tyranitar in ADV, they were certainly used around as much as Garchomp but they did not have as much power or the supposed uncounterability that Garchomp is supposed to have. In every situation we are assuming optimal conditions for the player who uses Garchomp, to attempt to prove that Garchomp can be stopped by other pokemon barring extreme hax. If pokemon A needs Garchomp to run 0 HP/Def IVs and a -Def nature to counter it is not a viable counter. |
though many pokemon get smashed by it in OU and under, can you imagine how badly itll get smashed itself in Uber. In my opinion it belongs to stay in OU, it just sits at the top.
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obviously if you rpedict wrong and your revenge killer goes down it could really put your team in even more trouble. |
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Slowbro is sent in Garchomp is sent in Garchomp uses Outrage Slowbro dies Weavile comes in Weavile uses Ice Punch Garchomp dies |
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slowbro is sent in garchomp is sent in --------------- slowbro has returned weavile(CB) is sent in garchomp uses sword dance ---------------- weavile(CB) uses ice punch garchomp dies this way you get the kill without sacrificing a single pokemon. this would require the opponent to use sword dance which is possible when it's up against a fresh team and feels it should sword dance up for extra power. obviously requires some luck. |
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it's a possible scenario. garchomp could switch out, but why would it unless it senses a CB. |
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Weavile is faster. Enter scenario:
A switched in Garchomp! B switched in Weavile! Weavile used Ice Punch / Shard (might not KO due to yache) Garchomp used SD! Weavile uses second Ice move! Garchomp fainted! |
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and who says weavile's can't carry ice punch? hell if i wanted that garchomp revenge killer i'd pack the stronger ice attack which would be ice punch. if nobody was using ice punch, they should, especially if they want to OHKO yache chomp. |
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cloyster
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What about Mismagius switching into EQ and WOW it? It outspeeds Garchomp and disables it. Same for Gengar. |
I'm still elaborating my post, but...
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Some of you people need to study some basic information about tiers, Pokémon and the whole metagame before posting, seriously. |
Mismagius gets downed by a +2 Outrage / Dragon Claw even if it burns Garchomp and/or switches into Outrage / Dragon Claw. If it can only switch into Earthquake / Fire Fang, thats not showing its viability as a counter.
For Cloyster LO +2 Outrage OHKOs after SR damage, Yache or non-LO variants can survive the first and second Ice Shard and down Cloyster. |
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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In regards to the discussion, I must say I really am at a midpoint. I can certainly see where people are coming from, Aquilae especially. The main exponent of Garchomp in recent times is Yache Berry, which now halts many attempts at that all important OHKO revenge kill we've become accustomed to. The problem we see is that the Garchomp user can easily switch out, and come back in again when the time is right. People counter that you can easily revenge kill Garchomp, and that may be true, but if you need to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in, just for the opponent to switch said monster out, it does make life difficult. On the flipside, Anti does make excellent points. Usage shouldn't determine Uber status, and although I don't think it was meant to be seen as that way, it has certainly become involved. We are always assuming that Garchomp has a Swords Dance under it's belt and is holding a Yache Berry. Problem with this is, we can assume the same for other pokemon also, but we don't. What if we say a Yache Berry Salamence has a Dragon Dance under it's belt, and an opponent is switching into a STAB Dragon Claw? Certainly that is very similar to Garchomp, albeit a lower attack rise and lower move base power, the effect is still very similar. The movepool of Garchomp is certainly one of the many reasons it has become an issue. Access to moves that can break through many common physical walls and the ability to use those moves with effectiveness is certainly hard to counter, but not impossible. I'm sorry to say, but we do seem to have drifted back to what happened previously. We assume that every Garchomp is running a Choice Band/Life Orb/Yache Berry, using Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Outrage/Fire Blast/Fire Fang/Crunch/Stone Edge/Swords Dance/Substitute, and that Stealth Rock is up and Garchomp has already used Swords Dance with 100% health in check, also that Sandstorm is always up. Let's be literal here people, that is obviously impossible, and even the possible is unlikely in some cases. We also seem to forget that Garchomp needs to get in. You may say that 'but Garchomp can come in after another pokemon has been defeated', but in all honesty, if that is the only way your opponent can bring Garchomp in, you've done a fairly decent job. I have seen a change in movesets to prevent Garchomp from getting a free switch in, no more so than with the change of Thunder Wave to Toxic on the standard Blissey. What I see here is that Garchomp needs to also switch in, we seem to focus on people needing to switch into Garchomp, but not the other way. Garchomp is going to take some sort of damage most likely during the switch, and if not possibly even being disabled via a well placed status etc. In conclusion...I have no idea. Both sides are fairly equal, the +Ubers side presents very good arguments in regards to the ability to counter each set and the havoc a fully powered Garchomp can reak on teams, while the -Ubers group has been able to at show us that not all Garchomp run every move under the sun, nor do they all run every set. We've also seen some very decent counters to each set seperately. I believe the problem we have is that Garchomp has many different sets. What counters one set normally cannot counter the other and vice versa. This in turn forces some players to have more than one Garchomp counter in their team, and you could say this is indeed overcentralization, and I would probably agree with you. On the other boat though, there is another dragon by the name of Salamence that also runs opposing sets very effectively. It does have lower stat totals and more weaknesses, which is perhaps why it's been kept as a solid OU, but if we look at the comparisons, the two are similar. Unfortunately, the movepool of Garchomp is definately the superior, and so it is obvious as to why we are discussing the movement of Garchomp compared to that of Salamence, but I thought I just might bring that up. Ok, so it may sound like a load of crap to most, and it probably is tbh, but I hope i've summed up my feelings about the situation, personally right now I'm against the movement, I guess I just don't like change... ~Tortured_Soul |
If we are taking that same approach with Garchomp, why not take it with its counters? We could have every counter worn down dealing with Gyarados and suchlike and Garchomp going in for the kill...
Usage is related to power. People use the pokemon because it functions well, and in a competitive game like pokemon obviously the best would be used the most. If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place. Power is very subjective, I could say that for example, Electivire sweeps as it is unexpected and has great coverage but you could refute my argument saying that Motor Drive is situational which contributes to the majority of its sweeps, and so on. Saying that we are assuming Garchomp to have that plethora of moves isn't the case, the most common set for arguing only has around five possible moves, Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang. I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted. Comparing Salamence to Garchomp is like comparing apples to oranges, sure they are both fruits, but the similarities stop there. Salamence has a completely different typing and ability than Garchomp, and a different stat distribution. Salamence is most commonly used as a Special Sweeper (MixMence / SpecsMence), and has Intimidate and Fighting and Bug resists, while being weak to Rock. Garchomp however resists Rock, has more bulky stats (without taking Intimidate into account), and has an immunity to Electric. Salamence does not have the power of Garchomp, after a Dragon Dance which is only 1 attack boost it needs Life Orb to roughly come to the same power as YacheGarchomp, and its best move is 100 BP (Dragon Rush) compared to Garchomp's 120 BP (Outrage). Thunder Wave instead of Toxic neuters Blissey and basically prevents her from spreading paralysis and thus turns Blissey into mere setup bait for SDLuke and friends. Garchomp counters Tyranitar, Lucario, Jirachi, Heatran, Infernape, Electivire and Blissey, and is able to get a free Swords Dance in the majority of the time. I would also like to point out, as stated in my original post all of those said counters were ruined by Yache, CB had no counters and the Sub/SD and Choice Scarf sets were the only ones which had clear-cut counters. |
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Thanks for the laugh, it totally woke me up. Slowbro can take the hit, well atleast enough to cause damage to chomp. No STAB for Ice Beam though, which makes me cry. He also has a recovery move, and can boost is SP.ATK. With a safe switch in and acouple CMs up, you should be able to 2HKO/OHKO depending. |
I thought of an idea-get an Alakazam in a Swords Dance, trick choice specs to it, and...
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Your aware that Garchomp can learn and use Special Moves, right? |
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And yes, I know what's ChainChomp, but it's quite a stupid set IMO. 80 Over 130? |
Um... does it really matter? Wow, Garchomp learns Special Moves! So what? ._.;
What he's saying is that... --- TRAINER switched into Alakazam Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack sharply rose. --- Alakazam used Trick! Garchomp obtained Choice Specs! Alakazam obtained Yache Berry! Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised. --- And it would be locked into a Swords Dance. Yeah? Well problems will come. Yache Berry might already have been used on an Ice Move, Garchomp might be holding Choice Band, or Garchomp might be holding Choice Scarf, or the user can just play smart and switch out, forcing the Alakazam to Trick the wrong Pokemon, and the TrickSpecs ability is done for. Garchomp switches back in and eats Alakazam. Really, any good player knows to switch out when you see Alakazam, since most Alakazam movesets are the TrickSpecs. Alakazam isn't common anymore. >:< |
Would Chomp really be locked into Swords Dance? I figured Choice Specs would lock you into the first move you choose after you obtain the item- after an SD, this would likely be Outrage or Earthquake.
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The fact that Garchomp can uses special attacks has nothing to do with him being in OU.
The fact that he almost always needs a sacrifice to be revenge killed it one of the main issues. Can you think of any other OU pokemon that is pretty much guaranteed a KO because of its ridiculous power? Oh, not to mention the move you're going to revenge kill it with might miss -_- |
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And wait, revenge killing is not a viable strategy? Tell that to usk and ipl and the several other battlers that have used such a strategy to great success. I myself have. Garchomp isn't the only one that can do damage to those teams either - CB Hera can show up and just demolish anything, and then Deoxys-S comes in and Heracross switches out. Yeah Heracross has already done its damage, but it's not like taking out a slow wall where it can open up tons of sweeps for other sweepers on your team; Sweepers on these teams are not relied upon for much of a defensive workload, and switching anything in on a CBcross that did did rely on would just be playing badly. I don't really know where you got the 0 IVs thing from. We're being perfectly fair with what does and doesn't counter Garchomp. Also, there are revenge killers that can bypass Yache Berry. If you've ever used scarf dragons in Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp, you know what I mean. They're very good too. There's also ScarfTran or a CB Ice Punch from Weavile. Garchomp rarely gets in with all of its health. As for your more recent post... Yes usage is related to power, of course it is. However, usage does not define power. Power doesn't even define usage in all cases. Also Garchomp can switch into Tyranitar and Lucario and Electivire without a speed boost and win every time, but it's not like Blissey countering Starmie where Blissey is always going to come out on top with almost all of its health. Tyranitar's CB Crunch effectively shuts down SDchomp's ability to sweep. LO Close Combat, if Lucario predicts the switch-in, will also take off a good portion of Garchomps health (more than half). If you want Evire to shave off 50% of your health and take away your Yache Berry too, that's fine by me. Heatran? Cool, let's eat a Dragon Pulse or HP Ice. Even if Garchomp predicts a Fire Blast or earth Power, he won't exactly take the hit like nothing. Blissey? Toxic and Ice Beam are both fairly common, though I actually agree that Thunder Wave is the better choice for Blissey. Infernape? It almost always carries Hidden Power Ice, making Garchomp a really terrible switch-in. You also said this which caught my attention: "I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted." Sweep OUs? Garchomp might be fast, but it isn't fast enough to sweep OUs. What revenge kills it: Mamoswine Weavile Scarf Salamence Scarf Garchomp Scarf Dragonite Deoxys-S Scarf Gengar Scarf Infernape Scarf Alakazam CB Donphan (survives Outrage and takes 90% from Garchomp with CB Ice shard, 2HKOing with or without Yache Berry). Scarf Heatran Scarf Lucario Scarf Gyarados Metagross (assuming it's Outraging) A lot of those threats are ridiculously common. Scarf Gar and Deoxys-S are seen every day on Shoddy. The others aren't as common but it's not like they aren't used (outside of CB Donphan). You have a lot of options to revenge kill Garchomp and end its sweep. A lot of those pokemon (Gengar, for example) can revenge kill it without a Choice Scarf and opt for a Choice specs or Life Orb set. Alakazam does similar (and Specs Psychic does ~70% to Garchomp while HP Ice, specs or not, OHKOs). Its speed just isn't enough to carry out a sweep in today's fast and powerful metagame. Garchomp also has to switch in on the threats of today. It's bulky one cannot deny, but switching in on things it supposedly counters can damage it a lot as I mentioned earlier. "If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place." Usage =/= to viability/power. OU/Ubers is decided by power, not usage. So then yeah, we don't have any stats proving either side is "right." There were no statistics that PROVED Wobbuffet was uber, but it was banned because it was a detriment to just about every in the metagame. I haven't seen Garchomp "destroy the metagame" like I've heard people claim. We have a whole selection of revenge killers at our disposal to beat it and a select few pokemon who counter it. EDIT: Yeah AC, it actually would lock you in. Just so ya know ;) |
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Sorry, I didn't quite think that one through. :nervous: I would expect that though, and just switch out. Its kinda obvious if you saw a Alakazam against a pokemon that it doesn't have a good chance of taking it down, your gonna get a tricked slapped in your face. Quote:
Its not like I ever said that I would base a set on his special attack, I said that if It came down to it he could use special attack over physical. Quote:
Ok, I'm pretty sure I never said anything about his special attack having to do with anything being in OU, did I? Quote:
Doesn't sound likely, what you said makes more sense. I'd love to test this out with you. |
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.
To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one. And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD? |
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Amen, totally agree. Most of my favorite pokemon, I cannot use because of those powerful sweepers. I'd love to be able to use them. If he didn't use SD, that Zam is dead. |
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Sadly, I forgot what Revenge Killing was. If you know me, you know my horrible memory. Spoiler:
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I'm in full support for Garchomp being ubers, but I must say, some people make it seem as if it cannot be revenge killed. It's like any other Pokemon; revenge killing it is (somewhat) easy. However, the problem with Chomp is that a lot of the things that revenge kill it are either missing due to Sand Veil and getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd, or dead before Chomp gets out into late game (which is when it should be out, no 3rd turn Garchomps please)
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Just a heads up on the TrickSpecs argument: It's null and void because when you trick the Specs on, if Garchomp isn't using Swords Dance, then the attack goes through. I'll explain from the above scene.
TRAINER switched into Alakazam Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack sharply rose. --- Alakazam used Trick! Garchomp obtained Choice Specs! Alakazam obtained Yache Berry! Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is now choiced and must be picked.) Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised. So, as you can see, if you Trick, the move they pick next is choiced. In that situation, Garchomp is stuck on Swords Dance and must switch out. If Earthquake was picked, then it'd be locked into Earthquake. |
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it's not that hard to use the pokemon you like unless they're the likes of wigglytuff/venamoth/pigeot(you get the point)... i do okay with a brock team and i used to beat some of the best around here with ash teams. surely it's do-able. |
Yeah, that is why I disagree with revenge killing. Probably me, and most likely Vance's fault, but I am tired of seeing it pop up by surprise in late gaem. I know, I know, I should be expecting it, but still, I think I'm winning, then D_A pops that bastard up.
Off topic, Lucario haxs D_A by OHKO'ing a full HP Weezing with XSpeed, even when ALL my walls died & he had nothing but sweepers. Take that, Garchimp. |
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TRAINER switched into Alakazam Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack sharply rose. --- Alakazam used Trick! Garchomp obtained Choice Specs! Alakazam obtained Yache Berry! Garchomp can't use earthquake due to choice specs! Alakazam uses ice beam! Garchomp fainted If that's not the case then people might as well use "encore" instead. TRAINER switched into Alakazam Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack sharply rose. -------------- Alakazam used Encore! Garchomp used Swords Dance! (This move is automatically picked until encore ends) Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised. Alakazam can then calm mind or ice beam or something. doesn't ruin the garchomp like the specs would but if specs don't work then this is more viable. edit: oops. as vance pointed out alakazam does not learn ice beam but hp ice. |
Alakazam cannot learn Ice Beam first of all. Besides that little nitpick, yes, Alakazam would cripple Chomp. But no sane Chomp user would keep Chomp in Zam, since it practically OHKO's with Psychic alone, especially with Specs.
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No, you can still use special moves with a Choice Band, & vice versa.
I just did a test. Ingame, Raichu held a Choice Band, & I made it use Hidden Power. I was able too. However, I used it on a Psyduck, & he Disabled me. Irony, I was out of moves :laugh: |
All choice items do is buff up a stat some. It doesn't mean you can't use a certain move.
Don't worry, my analysis is correct because I actually tested it earlier with Anti, who thought I was wrong...Who's wrong now Anti!? *spear'd by Anti's epicness* |
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And the point isn't that it can't be revenge killed, it's that is has to be revenge killed. You almost always (and I mean seriously always) have to sacrifice something to beat Garchomp. |
well, if you look at it this way. garchomp is considered almost uber status, so losing 1 poke while getting a revenge kill on it isn't such a bad trade off. i mean it's basically 1 for 1, but you're getting rid of a borderline "uber" while only losing an OU :P
a lot of sweepers can be dangerous at the end of games. i've swept teams with light ball pikachu several times late game. sandveil is hax but i've learned to deal with it. if i lose due to sandveil(which i don't think i have since I rarely get garchomp in sandstorm) then so be it. |
I disagree strongly with the last comment. From a person who is constantly losing due to cheap hax that is out of my control, I cannot stand losing due to Sand Veil hax.
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Ok i would seriously consider they not think Garchomp is the absolute best pokemon ok i have beaten every type of garchomp with my scarfmie (choice scarf starmie). i do consider him a threat do to him gettin the hax from sandveil. But i think he was put into the suspect ladder because he is so ou its like he went out of style. also maybe its so that people can try and have some creativity i mean common standard is not always the best thing people need to try and consider other outputs. I mean whats the point of playing pokemon if everybody is using the same pokemon over and over again. I think this suspect test is a very good idea i think they should start banning other ou pokemon like garchomp like tyranitar and salamence. If people cant use other pokemon than the standards of what people say are the best then why even play pokemon. I even find it more interesting to study pokemon than to even consider battling. Battling today is not as fun as it used to people dont use their favorite pokemon ne more or people dont even like pokemon that much they just like the feel of winning cause they use the same thing over and over. I do think the suspect ladder is a good idea banning one of the most ou pokemon in the game is good to show people that the standards is not always the way to go.
Also if neone tryies to bash me because of this post then so be it i dont realy care not like im gonna be loosing sleep over it ne way. its my own opinion of u dont like it deal. at least i respect everyone elses opinion. |
There are plenty of Pokemon that you can stick a scarf on and OHKO with Ice Beam. The only thing is, there aren't any COUNTERS for it. That's the whole point. There isn't a single Pokemon in existence that can switch into a Garchomp without fearing an attack, and then kill it or scare it away.
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There are plenty that can scare it away, the problem is is that Garchomp can do just that. Switch out to a counter, and once that problem pokemon is gone, in comes Garchomp again to wreak havoc.
~T_S |
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Another factor to consider is that while HP ice jolteon and Ice Punch Weavile do easily OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp (especially Choice Band) doesn't have much of a problem switching out. Spikes are mostly seen on Skarmory, Toxic Spikes aren't seen in OU and as Garchomp, while the little bit of pain is unattractive, has no problem switching back into a Stealth Rock set-up. The best strategy to use against Garchomp is to switch a Weavile into it, then hit it with an STAB boosted Pursuit as it switches. Also remember that once Outrage is activated, Garchomp can't be switched out until that Outrage wears out. Once Garchomp has KO'd one of your pokemon, switch in a Weavile, and Garchomp can't run, so it's open to a faster Ice Punch.
Also, you can't forget that if Garchomp is sent to Uber, people won't want to trash their Garchomp. They'll proceed to use it in Uber, and while the numbers of use won't be as enormous as they are in OU, there will still be a fair bit of them. And, say what you want, but Garchomp, with it's speed and attack is more than viable to be used in Uber. Therefore, Uber users will have to narrow their teams so that they can fit a lugia in their team to counter Garchomp, despite how rampant Lugia already is. Edit: I forgot to mention however, that although Hippowdon and Tyranitar do make their rare appearance in Uber, due to Groudon and Kyogre, Garchomps ability becomes pretty much Obsolete. Quote:
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I gotta say, besides all the many agruments for and against Garchomp in OU. I've been playing a lot of The Suspect Ladder, and I'm getting more enjoyment out of it. Sure some pokemon's uses have gone up (Lucario to name one) but I've seen more diversity. I havn't been in a (respectable) battle that was a total sweep for eather side.
I hate running into Celebi's and Cresselia, but some sets have surprised me now that they don't have to be set up with Garchomp in mind. Overall I think Garchomp in Ubers is just better for the game. (Excuse the sports cliche) |
Does anybody have a comment on how overwhelming Garchomp usage has been attributed to a shrinking OU, or are we all cool with that? =P
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I think we're cool with that.......Holy Yellow username Apostle. I know I havn't been that active....
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I did a quick check on Smogon. I glanced at the strategies listed in ubers, checking which ones have either a dragon or an ice move in at least one of their suggested strategies. 16 out of 19 ubers have at least one of those two. 8 of those are ice. 6 of them are dragon stab. I agree that he's too good for OU, but in Ubers he'd be very dead. He would be rule banned from OU tourney, and just not used in ubers.
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A Pokemon gets moved to Ubers when it gets banned from OU/BL. It doesn't matter how the Pokemon functions in Uber, but how it functions in OU. And besides, Donphan can't even hold the role of taking out Garchomp anymore, since Ice Shard doesn't 2HKO unless it's CB, which gives it even less defensive capabilities. |
I can say from personal experience that I am fed up with Garchomp. It cannot be taken down easily and it's a total pain. The OU metagame will be much more competitive without it, due to it being a closer contest. I strongly put forward that it should become Uber. The fact that people construct teasm around defeating it shows its power and how people are very wary of it's power. Uber please.
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I used to be "Garchomp for OU," but after a recent beating by one on Shoddy...
"Infernape used Hidden Power [Ice]!" "Infernape's attack missed!" ---- "Mamoswine used Ice Shard!" "Mamoswine's attack missed!" ---- "Starmie used Ice Beam!" "Starmie's attack missed!" And getting thumped on my ass, I agree with the general consensus that Chomp needs to go. |
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Oh an Ooka, Gofre said the same exact thing as you, except he managed to do it without insulting someone for no reason. Amazing how that works isn't it? |
The problem with Garchomp is,that it is EXACTLY liek Deoxys.It does wup ass in OU,because even i can wup ass with it,but it wil get bullied iwth ubers.I never was Garchomp for OU.I only use it because it's strong.If it was put into ubers poepel would have to figure out new tactics with it,whihc means it woudl liven up uber instead of biring out OU.So,it ouwld also do two good ithngs.Overall,i inthk it shodu definitely be in ubers
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He didn't insult you, he told you not to post about things you don't understand so you wouldn't look stupid. Great advice, really.
So we're all for ubering Garchomp? Why was it unbanned last time? |
Wait a second, why would people have to figure out new tactics for Garchomp in Ubers and thus liven it up?
Can't you use Garchomp in Ubers right now? ._. |
Because osmoene said it had counters.Yeah,and because i took out a Wobby with my Mamoswine,does that mean Wobby's UU?
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If a pokemon is deemed too broken for the OU tier or any tier, it will be moved up a tier or tiers. No matter how much the pokemon sucks in said higher tier. See regular deoxys, it completely blows compared with its other forms in ubers, however its still too broken for OU, so in ubers it stays. Quote:
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Wait wut ? Whoopty do, "I R BEETING KYOGRE WITH DUNSPARCEZ". Just because you beat an uber with a lower tier pokemon it still doesnt determine which tier its in. Hell, ive used Poliwrath in OU, and its beaten things from Gyarados, through weavile and tyranitar even Salamence. Ive even beat a Blissey with a NP Houndoom =/. Still IS NOT going to affect the tier of those threats i beat with lower tier pokes. |
You're misunderstanding here. He didn't say because it can be countered by lower tiers that it's a lower tier. He said the exact opposite.
Who said it had counters and how did they manage to convince anyone after that thread we had? |
Ok, I'm going to break this down too, but there are some points this can emphasise.
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As for it "Getting Bullied" in Ubers, lol. It has 102 Spd. Enough to outspeed most Uber threats. There are other reasons, but whether or not it can cope in Ubers is not a concern. (ERG - Equal Rights for Garchomps....) Uber is an OU ban, as BL is a UU ban. Many BLs suck in OU, but they are too good for UU, thus, they are banned. Quote:
My Vote - Uber. |
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Archer,waht i was saying was that jsut lke Deoxys,it is oing to get bullied in ubers.JHowever,i believe in NRG (No Rights for Garchomps).What i can do proves that it is too easy to use and kill stuff,as although i understand everytihng,i'm still fair rubbish at battling. |
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I understand that part.And at least someoen doesn't jsut have a go at me for posting stuff.
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I think Iv'e already said that, but Skill Link Icicle Spear Cloyster can ruin Yache Berry.
Lopunny can also Swicherro it's Yache for Choice Specs on physical sets, and if possible, on SD (Loppuny is faster BTW) and use Ice Punch. |
I'll take your word for it.The thing is,you want to have a poke that can do stuff other thna be a Garchomp Counter,adn,to be honest,you don't see many Lopunnys and i'm not about to add one jsut to counter chomp.Can i jsut make a point though?Latios with maxx speed and Ice Beam coudl give Garchomp a run around.If it were OU,they'd be quite well mstched,Latias more so,but,like Garchomp,Latias is more uber,whereas Latios has counters vewry common.
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Ok, that's it. First off, Aquilae already explanied why Cloyster won't work. Second, random UU pokemon won't cut it. Even if they happen to beat chomp (any faster UU can, like Lopunny, um...), stop using UU pokes that won't make it anywhere else in the metagame.
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Garchomp isn't as huge of a threat that people claim him to be. There are several counters who can easily OHKO sets without a Yache Berry.
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Oh, and if you think you have a counter for Garchomp, then name them instead of just saying that it has counters. I guess Weavile can counter YacheChomp on the Swords Dance, since Ice Punch OHKOs even through Yache Berry without a Swords Dance. At least that's what happened to me. >:< Garchomp's counters: Focus Band Weavile with Focus Band working 2 times in a row without Sandstorm. That and ubers. |
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Bold Slowbro is OHKO'd by Infernape's Grass Knot (Assuming your talking about the omnipresent Mixape or just infernape in general) Bite LO Gyarados 2HKO's Slowbro CB Chomp also 2hko's Slowbro with Outrage iirc. |
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And another thing, here's some calcs. It's [email protected]/252HP against a standard Garchomp with one SD: Outrage: 62-72% Earthquake: 51-60% Fire Fang: 24-27% DC used: Metalkid To quote D_A, A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat. Cloyster can only switch in on one of garchomp's attacks, which is only there for skarmory and Bronzong anyway- The former of which does the exact-same job. Hence you'd need to be running two physical walls in a single team just to be able to viably have a chance of switching cloyster in, and once it's in it just get's 2HKO'd as you break it's yache berry and hope for a run of 5 spears. |
Meaning, as he switches in, Cloyster loses half his HP. The next hit when Chomp goes first will KO.
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Isn't there any pokemon that can prevent it from SDing? |
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