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it's a possible scenario. garchomp could switch out, but why would it unless it senses a CB. |
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Weavile is faster. Enter scenario:
A switched in Garchomp! B switched in Weavile! Weavile used Ice Punch / Shard (might not KO due to yache) Garchomp used SD! Weavile uses second Ice move! Garchomp fainted! |
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and who says weavile's can't carry ice punch? hell if i wanted that garchomp revenge killer i'd pack the stronger ice attack which would be ice punch. if nobody was using ice punch, they should, especially if they want to OHKO yache chomp. |
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cloyster
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What about Mismagius switching into EQ and WOW it? It outspeeds Garchomp and disables it. Same for Gengar. |
I'm still elaborating my post, but...
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Some of you people need to study some basic information about tiers, Pokémon and the whole metagame before posting, seriously. |
Mismagius gets downed by a +2 Outrage / Dragon Claw even if it burns Garchomp and/or switches into Outrage / Dragon Claw. If it can only switch into Earthquake / Fire Fang, thats not showing its viability as a counter.
For Cloyster LO +2 Outrage OHKOs after SR damage, Yache or non-LO variants can survive the first and second Ice Shard and down Cloyster. |
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_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ In regards to the discussion, I must say I really am at a midpoint. I can certainly see where people are coming from, Aquilae especially. The main exponent of Garchomp in recent times is Yache Berry, which now halts many attempts at that all important OHKO revenge kill we've become accustomed to. The problem we see is that the Garchomp user can easily switch out, and come back in again when the time is right. People counter that you can easily revenge kill Garchomp, and that may be true, but if you need to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in, just for the opponent to switch said monster out, it does make life difficult. On the flipside, Anti does make excellent points. Usage shouldn't determine Uber status, and although I don't think it was meant to be seen as that way, it has certainly become involved. We are always assuming that Garchomp has a Swords Dance under it's belt and is holding a Yache Berry. Problem with this is, we can assume the same for other pokemon also, but we don't. What if we say a Yache Berry Salamence has a Dragon Dance under it's belt, and an opponent is switching into a STAB Dragon Claw? Certainly that is very similar to Garchomp, albeit a lower attack rise and lower move base power, the effect is still very similar. The movepool of Garchomp is certainly one of the many reasons it has become an issue. Access to moves that can break through many common physical walls and the ability to use those moves with effectiveness is certainly hard to counter, but not impossible. I'm sorry to say, but we do seem to have drifted back to what happened previously. We assume that every Garchomp is running a Choice Band/Life Orb/Yache Berry, using Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Outrage/Fire Blast/Fire Fang/Crunch/Stone Edge/Swords Dance/Substitute, and that Stealth Rock is up and Garchomp has already used Swords Dance with 100% health in check, also that Sandstorm is always up. Let's be literal here people, that is obviously impossible, and even the possible is unlikely in some cases. We also seem to forget that Garchomp needs to get in. You may say that 'but Garchomp can come in after another pokemon has been defeated', but in all honesty, if that is the only way your opponent can bring Garchomp in, you've done a fairly decent job. I have seen a change in movesets to prevent Garchomp from getting a free switch in, no more so than with the change of Thunder Wave to Toxic on the standard Blissey. What I see here is that Garchomp needs to also switch in, we seem to focus on people needing to switch into Garchomp, but not the other way. Garchomp is going to take some sort of damage most likely during the switch, and if not possibly even being disabled via a well placed status etc. In conclusion...I have no idea. Both sides are fairly equal, the +Ubers side presents very good arguments in regards to the ability to counter each set and the havoc a fully powered Garchomp can reak on teams, while the -Ubers group has been able to at show us that not all Garchomp run every move under the sun, nor do they all run every set. We've also seen some very decent counters to each set seperately. I believe the problem we have is that Garchomp has many different sets. What counters one set normally cannot counter the other and vice versa. This in turn forces some players to have more than one Garchomp counter in their team, and you could say this is indeed overcentralization, and I would probably agree with you. On the other boat though, there is another dragon by the name of Salamence that also runs opposing sets very effectively. It does have lower stat totals and more weaknesses, which is perhaps why it's been kept as a solid OU, but if we look at the comparisons, the two are similar. Unfortunately, the movepool of Garchomp is definately the superior, and so it is obvious as to why we are discussing the movement of Garchomp compared to that of Salamence, but I thought I just might bring that up. Ok, so it may sound like a load of crap to most, and it probably is tbh, but I hope i've summed up my feelings about the situation, personally right now I'm against the movement, I guess I just don't like change... ~Tortured_Soul |
If we are taking that same approach with Garchomp, why not take it with its counters? We could have every counter worn down dealing with Gyarados and suchlike and Garchomp going in for the kill...
Usage is related to power. People use the pokemon because it functions well, and in a competitive game like pokemon obviously the best would be used the most. If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place. Power is very subjective, I could say that for example, Electivire sweeps as it is unexpected and has great coverage but you could refute my argument saying that Motor Drive is situational which contributes to the majority of its sweeps, and so on. Saying that we are assuming Garchomp to have that plethora of moves isn't the case, the most common set for arguing only has around five possible moves, Swords Dance, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang. I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted. Comparing Salamence to Garchomp is like comparing apples to oranges, sure they are both fruits, but the similarities stop there. Salamence has a completely different typing and ability than Garchomp, and a different stat distribution. Salamence is most commonly used as a Special Sweeper (MixMence / SpecsMence), and has Intimidate and Fighting and Bug resists, while being weak to Rock. Garchomp however resists Rock, has more bulky stats (without taking Intimidate into account), and has an immunity to Electric. Salamence does not have the power of Garchomp, after a Dragon Dance which is only 1 attack boost it needs Life Orb to roughly come to the same power as YacheGarchomp, and its best move is 100 BP (Dragon Rush) compared to Garchomp's 120 BP (Outrage). Thunder Wave instead of Toxic neuters Blissey and basically prevents her from spreading paralysis and thus turns Blissey into mere setup bait for SDLuke and friends. Garchomp counters Tyranitar, Lucario, Jirachi, Heatran, Infernape, Electivire and Blissey, and is able to get a free Swords Dance in the majority of the time. I would also like to point out, as stated in my original post all of those said counters were ruined by Yache, CB had no counters and the Sub/SD and Choice Scarf sets were the only ones which had clear-cut counters. |
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Thanks for the laugh, it totally woke me up. Slowbro can take the hit, well atleast enough to cause damage to chomp. No STAB for Ice Beam though, which makes me cry. He also has a recovery move, and can boost is SP.ATK. With a safe switch in and acouple CMs up, you should be able to 2HKO/OHKO depending. |
I thought of an idea-get an Alakazam in a Swords Dance, trick choice specs to it, and...
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Your aware that Garchomp can learn and use Special Moves, right? |
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And yes, I know what's ChainChomp, but it's quite a stupid set IMO. 80 Over 130? |
Um... does it really matter? Wow, Garchomp learns Special Moves! So what? ._.;
What he's saying is that... --- TRAINER switched into Alakazam Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack sharply rose. --- Alakazam used Trick! Garchomp obtained Choice Specs! Alakazam obtained Yache Berry! Garchomp used Swords Dance! Garchomp's Attack was sharply raised. --- And it would be locked into a Swords Dance. Yeah? Well problems will come. Yache Berry might already have been used on an Ice Move, Garchomp might be holding Choice Band, or Garchomp might be holding Choice Scarf, or the user can just play smart and switch out, forcing the Alakazam to Trick the wrong Pokemon, and the TrickSpecs ability is done for. Garchomp switches back in and eats Alakazam. Really, any good player knows to switch out when you see Alakazam, since most Alakazam movesets are the TrickSpecs. Alakazam isn't common anymore. >:< |
Would Chomp really be locked into Swords Dance? I figured Choice Specs would lock you into the first move you choose after you obtain the item- after an SD, this would likely be Outrage or Earthquake.
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The fact that Garchomp can uses special attacks has nothing to do with him being in OU.
The fact that he almost always needs a sacrifice to be revenge killed it one of the main issues. Can you think of any other OU pokemon that is pretty much guaranteed a KO because of its ridiculous power? Oh, not to mention the move you're going to revenge kill it with might miss -_- |
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And wait, revenge killing is not a viable strategy? Tell that to usk and ipl and the several other battlers that have used such a strategy to great success. I myself have. Garchomp isn't the only one that can do damage to those teams either - CB Hera can show up and just demolish anything, and then Deoxys-S comes in and Heracross switches out. Yeah Heracross has already done its damage, but it's not like taking out a slow wall where it can open up tons of sweeps for other sweepers on your team; Sweepers on these teams are not relied upon for much of a defensive workload, and switching anything in on a CBcross that did did rely on would just be playing badly. I don't really know where you got the 0 IVs thing from. We're being perfectly fair with what does and doesn't counter Garchomp. Also, there are revenge killers that can bypass Yache Berry. If you've ever used scarf dragons in Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp, you know what I mean. They're very good too. There's also ScarfTran or a CB Ice Punch from Weavile. Garchomp rarely gets in with all of its health. As for your more recent post... Yes usage is related to power, of course it is. However, usage does not define power. Power doesn't even define usage in all cases. Also Garchomp can switch into Tyranitar and Lucario and Electivire without a speed boost and win every time, but it's not like Blissey countering Starmie where Blissey is always going to come out on top with almost all of its health. Tyranitar's CB Crunch effectively shuts down SDchomp's ability to sweep. LO Close Combat, if Lucario predicts the switch-in, will also take off a good portion of Garchomps health (more than half). If you want Evire to shave off 50% of your health and take away your Yache Berry too, that's fine by me. Heatran? Cool, let's eat a Dragon Pulse or HP Ice. Even if Garchomp predicts a Fire Blast or earth Power, he won't exactly take the hit like nothing. Blissey? Toxic and Ice Beam are both fairly common, though I actually agree that Thunder Wave is the better choice for Blissey. Infernape? It almost always carries Hidden Power Ice, making Garchomp a really terrible switch-in. You also said this which caught my attention: "I think the +Ubers side is arguing that Garchomp can sweep OU with its most common set, which is obviously a quality that needs to be noted." Sweep OUs? Garchomp might be fast, but it isn't fast enough to sweep OUs. What revenge kills it: Mamoswine Weavile Scarf Salamence Scarf Garchomp Scarf Dragonite Deoxys-S Scarf Gengar Scarf Infernape Scarf Alakazam CB Donphan (survives Outrage and takes 90% from Garchomp with CB Ice shard, 2HKOing with or without Yache Berry). Scarf Heatran Scarf Lucario Scarf Gyarados Metagross (assuming it's Outraging) A lot of those threats are ridiculously common. Scarf Gar and Deoxys-S are seen every day on Shoddy. The others aren't as common but it's not like they aren't used (outside of CB Donphan). You have a lot of options to revenge kill Garchomp and end its sweep. A lot of those pokemon (Gengar, for example) can revenge kill it without a Choice Scarf and opt for a Choice specs or Life Orb set. Alakazam does similar (and Specs Psychic does ~70% to Garchomp while HP Ice, specs or not, OHKOs). Its speed just isn't enough to carry out a sweep in today's fast and powerful metagame. Garchomp also has to switch in on the threats of today. It's bulky one cannot deny, but switching in on things it supposedly counters can damage it a lot as I mentioned earlier. "If usage does not determine Uber status, there isn't much reliable evidence to prove that a pokemon should be Uber in the first place." Usage =/= to viability/power. OU/Ubers is decided by power, not usage. So then yeah, we don't have any stats proving either side is "right." There were no statistics that PROVED Wobbuffet was uber, but it was banned because it was a detriment to just about every in the metagame. I haven't seen Garchomp "destroy the metagame" like I've heard people claim. We have a whole selection of revenge killers at our disposal to beat it and a select few pokemon who counter it. EDIT: Yeah AC, it actually would lock you in. Just so ya know ;) |
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Sorry, I didn't quite think that one through. :nervous: I would expect that though, and just switch out. Its kinda obvious if you saw a Alakazam against a pokemon that it doesn't have a good chance of taking it down, your gonna get a tricked slapped in your face. Quote:
Its not like I ever said that I would base a set on his special attack, I said that if It came down to it he could use special attack over physical. Quote:
Ok, I'm pretty sure I never said anything about his special attack having to do with anything being in OU, did I? Quote:
Doesn't sound likely, what you said makes more sense. I'd love to test this out with you. |
I fully support the moving of Garchomp to ubers. Every team I have ever built has gotten swept by one at some point. I even built one where I made sure every Pokemon on my team could damage chomp, going so far as to give many of my Pokemon HP [Ice] or either a dragon or Ice move. Then I ran into a team that led with T-tar and had a Chomp on it. I hit it once, but it had a Yache Berry. I was swept.
To sum up : Move Chomp to ubers so I can stop using all the "popular" pokemon, and use the ones I like. I just had one attempt at doing so swept by Chomp... twice in a row, against different people, and got 4-0'd in a third battle against one. And yes, Chomp would be locked into a swords dance, but what if it didn't use SD? |
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Amen, totally agree. Most of my favorite pokemon, I cannot use because of those powerful sweepers. I'd love to be able to use them. If he didn't use SD, that Zam is dead. |
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Sadly, I forgot what Revenge Killing was. If you know me, you know my horrible memory. Spoiler:
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I'm in full support for Garchomp being ubers, but I must say, some people make it seem as if it cannot be revenge killed. It's like any other Pokemon; revenge killing it is (somewhat) easy. However, the problem with Chomp is that a lot of the things that revenge kill it are either missing due to Sand Veil and getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd, or dead before Chomp gets out into late game (which is when it should be out, no 3rd turn Garchomps please)
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